Mini Excavator Operating Question

[thepawnshop]

I am demo-ing a JD 35D ZTS mini excavator and feel a bit uncomfortable on hills. What is the best way to go up and down a slope in a mini? Going up I extended the bucket as far forward and as low as possible so it didn't feel like I would tip backwards, but I used the same method for going downhill in case I started to tip forward, the arm would keep me from rolling forward.

I just would really like to know from real excavator operators the best way to travel up and down inclines. Other than that, as a homebuilder, this is a GREAT piece of equipment. I got this machine straight from the factory with all of 2 hours on it. I know I am going to buy it, I just want to know how to drive it better!

Thanks!

[Scag48]

Going uphill and downhill it sounds like you pretty much have it figured out. I ran a Deere 27C ZTS on a pretty good slope last summer and that's how I approached the hills. You don't need to necessarily keep the stick fully extended, but it definately lowers the center of gravity and on a really steep slope, if the bucket was right in front of the tracks you might go end over end, so fully extended I think is the way to go. What's strange about the Deere 35D is that it only has 28 HP and the 27C has 32 HP? Kind of strange. We're looking for an excavator and have been pondering a Cat 304CR, 303CR, Deere 27C or 35D. What size bucket were you using and did the machine feel like it had sufficient power? Thanks!

[greywynd]

I've owned my own mini for 4 years now, and rented them off and on for 3 or 4 more before that....If it's a really steep hill, don't forget about your backfill blade. Going down for example, what you can do (this takes some practice), put the blade downhill, and put it down to help 'level' the machine front to back. Now take your bucket, and lift the machine slightly with it, now walk the tracks and move the stick at the same time....you'll be walking on the 'heels' of the tracks. When you reach the limit of your stick travel, let the machine back down to rest on the blade again. Make sure that you are completely perpendicular to the slope.....off at all and this can get tippy fast. Also make sure that you are wearing your seltbelt when on slopes!!!! Your ROPS is not much good if you ever do go over and you end up under the machine. You can use the same technique going up a hill, but you have to go up facing backwards.....this takes some more getting used to.......

Most important thing......take your time, and listen to your instincts.....if it feels too steep, or it feels like your getting off balance.......DON'T do it!!!!!As you spend more time on it and get used to it's limitations, you will get more comfortable. Remember, if you ever exceed these limits, there's a good chance that someone will get hurt (or killed) and we don't want to read about you in the paper.

Mark

[thepawnshop]

What size bucket were you using and did the machine feel like it had sufficient power? Thanks!

I was using a 24" bucket (I am getting the 12" as well) and had NO PROBLEMS whatsoever moving the material...which was bucket fulls of wet material...mostly red and brown dirt. No clay, but I was demoing the machine in the rain. I also moved a lot os shale/shot rock without any hesitation. If you put the two machines by JD side by side, you would not think twice about the 35d. Yes, the 27 claims to have more horses, but it is made by a different company. The 35 kicks it in the rear on all other stats (except price...the machine I am demoing comes in @ $35,500 with 12 & 24" bucket and auger bracket (I bought an auger for my skid steer and think it will get more use in this piece than the skid). Also keep in mind that JD has quite a few improvements over what you used last year. I think you should call your local JD dealer and demo a 35 since you have already had experience with the 27. I like CAT...but they are expensive and the comparable model is a good bit more expensive than the JD. I am becoming a JD fan-boy I guess in part because the dealership/salesman is so willing to work with you. May not be the case in all markets...James River Equipment rocks!

Try this out...here is a link from the JD site that allows you to compare their machine to all others in the comparable class:

Mini Excavator Comparisons (http://www.deere.com/specsapp/servlet/com.deere.u90785.specscompare.view.servlets.SpecsCompareServlet?module=prodcat&sbu=ced&userAction=compare&PciModel=035DXFF&ModelName=35D+COMPACT+EXC&tM=CF&pNbr=35dzts&category=excavators&subCategory=compact&equipment=construction)

Good Luck and thanks for the help!

[Scag48]

Yes, Cat is expensive. Although I've seen used 304CR's on Catused with 400 hrs. on them w/o a thumb for about $5,000 more than we can buy a brand new piece w/ a thumb. $35,000 sounds like a smokin' deal on that 35D, we were quoted $45,000 for a 304CR, substantially bigger than the 35D, but like I said a new one is cheaper than one is used! I will definately take a look at a 35D before we buy anything. I'm looking at a Bobcat 331 right now, 40 HP is VERY appealing and having zero tail swing isn't a huge priority for us. I'm a Cat fan but most of these excavators are pretty much the same, there are less and less differences between brands than say skid steers where we distinctively chose Cat for some features that blew Bobcat and Deere right out of the water. I'm going to feel really guilty about not buying a Cat if we don't, but price, performance, and dealer support is what we're looking for and Cat has the best dealer support. The Deere and Bobcat dealers up here would have to prove themselves to us if we were to buy a Deere or Bobcat machine, because dealer support is the most important aspect. A machine is only worth anything if it's running and that's what you're paying for when you buy a Cat, the dealer support. All in all we're going to demo a Cat 303CR so far, probably a 35D now as well. Hope everything works out for you!

[thepawnshop]

Scag, have you started any demoing with the mini yet? I have put about 15 hours on the JD 35 ZTS and seriously doubt I will even bother trying anyone elses machine out I am so satisfied with it. Let me know your thoughts on the others...

Here is a deal for you if you are going to stay Cat, though:

Used Cat 303 (http://www.ironplanet.com/j/equip/equip.jsp?equipId=125830&h=400%2F2%2CNewSearch)

Seems like an awesome deal!

[Scag48]

I did start demo'ing actually. We had a 303CR brought up yesterday and we worked it 3 hours pulling up 2500 pound rocks on a site we've been on. I liked the machine for the size of machine it was, but I am very leary that it will lift what we need it to lift. I could lift 800-900 pound rocks right in front of the blade maybe 6-8 inches off the ground and even then the machine was real tippy when trying to travel, and forget about swinging over the side. Now here's a strange story, my dad called the dealer this morning for prices on a 303CR. Sales guy says "oh yeah, I've got a 304.5 up in your area that you guys could just pick up at the site and take out to use for a few days." Turns out, this machine was digging a foundation for a garage right next a lawn that I was going to mow, so I knew exactly where it was before I even needed to. It's a small world. Anyway, we loaded the 304.5 and hauled it a rock quarry that we're going to be snagging some rock to use to install a retaining wall this weekend. I was VERY impressed with the 304.5. The thumb is larger, like I assumed. The problem with the 303 is that it was tough to even grab some 800 pound rocks, the thumb just wouldn't grasp around it. I was lifting 1,000 pound rocks EASY with the 304.5 over the front, stick all the way out, 4-5 feet in the air and then swing over the side, no problem at all. My dad says the 304.5 is too big of a machine, and I told him that the 304CR that we are looking at will be a little wider by about 3 inches and will weigh just a little less than the 304.5. We're waiting until next week for the 304CR because they didn't have one on hand, they were all rented out. It just happened that we could get a 304.5, but it was nice to get a feel of how much these machines will lift.

Dad keeps changing his mind on why we're buying this machine. He says he's buying it strictly for digging ponds and general digging tasks. 3 days ago, we were buying an excavator to build retaining walls and load dump trucks/our dump trailer faster/easier than our skid steer, according to the old man. I'm trying to convince him that a foot and a half worth of width isn't going to make much difference for us, it can on some jobs but at less than 5 percent of our sites actually restricting us to a 5 foot wide machine, I don't think it's worth buying a machine that we're going to grow out of.

So I've compiled a list of pros and cons:

303CR pros:
-Easy to transport via tiltbed trailer - This is so much faster to load and unload than our goosneck w/beavertail
-Small footprint
-Light machine, overall length is very little

303CR Cons
-Won't lift adequately sized rocks for a 4 foot wall
-Won't load the rocks that we'll be getting at this quarry into our dump trailer, we'd have to bring our skid steer to help out and even that would be a pain

304CR Pros
-Lifts adequately, according to 304.5, I'm assuming lift capacity won't vary too much, I was WAY impressed with the 304.5, so even a slight decrease in lift capacity of a 304CR compared to a 304.5 would be more than enough to satisfy our lifting needs
-Will load a dump truck, the 303CR will not
-Will handle a 30" bucket
-More horsepower!
-Will physically grab the rocks, the 303 struggles to grasp an 800 pound rock
-Will give me a machine to buy from dad when I'm out of college, I plan on going into excavation

304CR Cons
-More expensive by about 10K
-Burns more fuel
-Have to haul on our goosneck, which is a PITA and somewhat not setup for this machine right now, but some modifications to our ramps will fix that

Wow this is a long post but I'm updating. So we're doing this wall job this weekend and we'll have both machines onsite and I'll show my dad that the 303 just won't be able to cut the mustard building walls, but then he'll probably just say something like "well that's not what we're buying one for", right after he told me that's what we need one for last week. :dizzy: Thanks for the input guys!

[thepawnshop]

OK, Skag...after reading your stellar review of the Cat 304 CR, I called our local Cat rep and he is bringing one out on Tuesday for me to try out. I owe it to myself to make sure I am getting the best bang for my $$$$. Be sure you share any other mini observations you may have and I shall do the same!

[2004F550]

Standard machines can usally lift more and are more stable then ZTS house machines, if you don't definatly need the ZTS then dont buy...we do so we bought a Bobcat 435 ZTS...but if ur in open area, regular like the 304.5 is the way to go

[Gravel Rat]

It must be different down in the States because Cat machines are going to the way side and Komatsu is moving into areas that were Cat dominant. If you want your Cat machine repaired you will be waiting a few days for a service guy to show up. Cat wants you to haul your machine to their shops to get repaired.

If I was going to get a mini machine it would be a Kubota with steel tracks it would be a 161 model.

As for working on slopes with a mini is take your time and use the blade and bucket as meantioned already. The biggest problem is those rotten rubber tracks they are terrible they don't grip loose dirt or slippery surfaces what so ever. You don't want to get in a situation where you start sliding down a slope like a tobogan or where you are sliding sideways where you run the risk of flopping on the side. As already meantioned if it doesn't feel comfortable don't push it the pucker factor when your butt cheeks tighten up tells you if it doesn't feel right. There are alot of places where I will go in a 35,000lb fullsize excavator where I don't dare with a mini just because a 8000lb mini is so tippy.

[Scag48]

Gravel Rat - I don't know why you have such negative reviews for rubber tracks. We're in the landscaping business, not the excavation business, we work on pavement alot, can't get steel tracks. Also, tonight I ran the 304.5 up the side of a bank that was completely fractured rock, I'll get some pictures of this "quarry" we're getting rocks from. We got out, pick the rocks we want and load them up, it works out real slick. Anyway, those rubber tracks climbed right up these rocks, no problems that I could see. Also, OUR Cat dealer will come get our machine and haul it to their shop if it needs repair. I don't know how it is in Canada but down here we have great service and that's why we're buying Cat.

2004F350 - I think we will need the ZTS style machine, the 304.5 just hangs out too much. We want a brand new machine and Cat does not make the 304.5 anymore, we'd have to buy one used. I realize that the ZTS (or Cat CR, Compact Radius) machines won't lift quite as much as a conventional mini, but I doubt that it will be diminished by too much, the operating weight difference between the 304CR and the 304.5 is very little, I think within 300 pounds, but the 304.5 does have more hanging out the back, giving it just a touch more counterweight. But the 304CR can have an additional 418 pound counterweight bolted to the back, which we might look at getting if I demo the machine and feel the need for more lift capacity, but if it's not going to vary much from the 304.5, I'm not going to bother, that thing lifts awesome.

Pawnshop - I demo'ing a 304.5, not the 304CR, but I'm assuming that the 304CR is everything the 4.5 is and more, being a couple years newer. I impressed myself again tonight with the 304.5, lifted a 1200 pound rock at about 10 feet out on a bit of a slope and swung it down to the landing, this 304.5 is a great machine, I can't wait to try the 304CR, I imagine it'll be just what we're looking for. Hopefully the thumb will be the same size as the one on the 304.5, I imagine it would be. I just wouldn't be able to handle a smaller thumb, we'd never be able to grab these large rocks!

Installing the retaining wall this weekend, I will try my best to get pictures just to give an idea of what this piece is supposed to do for us. We'll have a fleet of machines at the job, we're real restricted on how to get the rocks to the wall, we have to back the truck about 500 feet along an undulating slope to get to the site, so we'll have the 303CR to help out, our 216 skid steer to haul dirt for backfill behind the wall and the 304.5 to place rocks. Should be an interesting job, most of all it will be FUN!

[Gravel Rat]

There isn't many contractors in this area that likes rubber tracks because they are so slippery on slopes. The reason why I don't like them is I have had too many scares with them. You can deal with running on concrete and pavement with steel tracks by using plywood or tires. Rubber tracks are not that easy on soft ground compared to wide steel pads with 3 grouser bars.

It is what ever you get used to for me safety wise I won't work on or in steeper slopes with a mini and rubber tracks. A steep slope for me is where you need the seat belt to hold you from sliding forward and out of the seat.

As for the Cat dealers the nearest one for us is over 100kms away and there is no resident service man anymore. Like I said before Komatsu is moving in and taking a hold and so is Deere/Hitatchi because the dealer support is there.
For a person here to truck a excavator to the Cat dealer is minimum 500 dollars one way. Its why Hitatchi,Deere,Komatsu and Kobelco are the mose common excavators here because the dealer support is better the machines stand up better and your not paying extra just for the name.

[Scag48]

Trying to put down plywood when running on concrete with steel tracks is a PITA. Nobody around here uses steel tracks on a mini. If you want to climb slopes, get a larger machine. To each his own I suppose but for us steel tracks serves us zero purpose whatsoever. As far as Cat goes, I'm convinced they're the best, not best in price, but best in overall quality and support. If they weren't, Cat wouldn't still be the #1 construction equipment manufacturer in the world.

[thepawnshop]

Scag, you said that with the 304 you would need to use your gooseneck trailer...why is that? The specs on the track are 6'6". My 6 ton trailer has a 6'10" deck between the tires. I know it doesn't leave much room to play with, but it's enough to carry that bad-boy.

I have spent a little bit of time doing a "paper comparison" of the JD 35 vs the Cat 304 and it seems spec wise that the Cat comes in about 20% better...on paper. Here it is:

JD 35D Cat 304CR Diff
Horsepower: 29.9 36 17%
Weight: 7672 9786 22%
Max Digging Depth: 10.05 11 9%
Max Digging Reach: 17.15 18.9 9%
Max Dump Height: 11.54 11.9 3%
Bucket Digging Force: 6182 8228 25%
Stick Digging Force: 4294 5373 20%
Main Pump Flow: 21.2 27.9 24%
Boom Swing Angle (L) 72 80 10%
Boom Swing Angle (R) 62 50 -24%
Machine Width: 5.9 6.6 11%
Standard Track Width: 12 16 25%
Ground Clearance: 11.4 12.1 6%
Blade Dig Depth: 15.35 16.93 9%
Blade Lift Height: 14.17 17.72 20%
Price as Demo: 35500 45000 21%

Now everyone knows that stats on paper don't always translate to what you can expect on the jobsite so I am anxiously awaiting my "seat time" in the 304 on Tuesday. I also can only wonder if I am going to see 10k more worth of performance...that's A LOT of moola. The JD 35 is a very able machine...in fact, according to its spec sheet, it supposedly has a Lift Capacity Over Front @ 10' G.L. of 3,334 lbs and a Lift Capacity Over Side @ 10' G.L. of 1,412 lbs....not too shabby.

How did this get from a post about how to handle a mini on a hill to an all out spec comparison of two machines!?!?!

[Planet Landscaping]

I bought a Kubota demo (28hrs) U35 for $30K.With hyd. thumb. Pretty strong. all terrain, Down the driveway and over the lawn to dig (rubber tracks). Its All about the TECHNIQUE.

[Gravel Rat]

The guys with mini's less than 10,000lbs don't get that much work they are limited on what they can do. The local rental shop rents two bobcat mini's they are 6000lb machines the newer one is a 325 I don't know what it weighs but I know its a little over 3 ton. Mostly homeowners and building contractors rent those machines figuring they will save money doing their own work.

In some extreme cases where its too tough to get a machine down to where it needs to go a crane truck is used to lift the machine down the slope. Or you have to build a road down into the area which does cost the homeowner alot more money.

Mini excavators in this area are machines in the EX-60 Hitachi PC-60 Komatsu the 161 Kubota sized machine is considered the smallest mini anything smaller is potato patch diggers. Most of the time the landscapers will hire a excavation contractor to come in a rough in the landscaping and the finish work is done by hand.

I guess you guys that do residential landscaping don't know what really steep slopes and dealing with really tough terrain is because you are dealing with easy conditions 90% of the time. I looked at the spec's on the 304 and its a borderline machine that would be any chance of being productive. The John Deere 50D is about the right size even then the Kubota 161 has them all beat.

You may have to get a heavier trailer to carry the machine but thats a small trade off for the amount of work you will get.

[KBequip.]

Please be careful. If it don't feel right don't do it.
About the engine hp differences on the Deere 27c and new 35D and all mini excavators, All that really matters is the hydraulic hp of the machine.
The engine is merly powering the pump or pumps.
Go Deere!!
kb.

[ksss]

I was going to make that comment reference engine HP earlier in the thread. Engine HP plays very little in the performance of the machine. Certain pumps take more or less HP to run than others. The key is to look at the number of pumps the machine has and what they run as well as the type of pump. This will tell you its multifunction capability. My IHI had 4 pumps, my Takeuchi has three. The pumps will either be piston or radial. The boom and stick functions tend to be radial, tracks tend to be piston but that varies.

SKAG, CAT did not get to be number one by building skid steers or mini excavators something to keep in mind. CAT service is only as successful as your local dealer. Just as with any other OEM dealer, if yours is good, than good on ya. CAT does not have a patent on good service. You have convinced yourself that CAT is the only purchase option. By the sounds of it, you have only run a CAT, what are you comparing it to? You have never owned a mini before running the CAT. I am not trying to lock horns, its just that your assessment of the CAT has no basis of comparison.

On a different note, I found that DEERE (C series when I was looking) did not spec. well and for me it performed no better. However, our digging conditions are difficult, I thought it was a nice machine to run. I found the Deere thumb would be better served as a drift boat anchor, same for the factory QA. My advise would be to demo as many machines as you can get a hold of. Its an expensive piece of equipment. You should be buying the best machine for your operation whatever brand that might be. After buying 12 CASE skid steers, I would have liked to have had a CASE mini excavator. Problem was, it wasn't the strongest running machine that I demoed. My brand loyality has its limits. One point to make is that some zero swing or reduced swing machines actually have higher lift capacities than their conventional swing versions. This is true on larger machines especially. Good luck guys in purchases.

[Scag48]

ksss-I have run other machines, I've rented a Deere 27C numerous times, good machine but just wasn't what I wanted. I wanted to demo a 35D for argument sake, but the Deere dealer up here is horrible, they said it would be a week before they could get me one to demo and they didn't return my calls when I wanted to buy a $40,000 machine from them. So, they were out and the Bobcat dealer, who is also owned by Pape is not much better, no machines on the lot to demo. Looked at Kubota, didn't demo onsite but I ran it around the lot, but they were more expensive than Cat. The KX 91-3 isn't a bad machine, had a few minor ergonomic issues, but it isn't any more productive than a Cat 303 and they wanted a few thousand more. Wanted to look at Takeuchi but the only dealer for them is in Spokane and I don't have time to drive to Spokane if I have a problem with my machine and forget about them driving to us to get work done. That's plain and simple facts, I'm not going to buy something I can't get serviced, that's just plain stupid.

Our Cat salesman on the other hand sent us TWO machines to demo. We've had the 303CR on rent for almost 3 weeks and the dealer gave that rental to us, no charge whatsoever until our 303 gets here. The 304.5 we were charged for, but I stacked a wall with that so we charged the customer, so no loss there. The reason I choose Cat is because they've built a reputation on the best equipment. They might not have done it by producing skid steers and mini excavators, but when everything else they produce is quality and has been for years, who am I to question their newer products.

[ksss]

Your CAT dealer takes care of you and at least he is earning your business. However, Your excavator is unlikely to need to see the inside of a service bay for some time, if you do your own routine maintainance. I bought my IHI with 900 hours on it and traded it at 2100 and other than injectors at 2000 hours it never saw the inside of a service bay. My Takeuchi has yet to have a problem just under 1000k hours. If a problem shows up, everyone uses similiar componentssuch as Yanmar, Mits, or Izuzu motors, Kawasaki pumps etc. You don't need to have a dealer in your pocket with these machines. Anyone can work on them if need be. Again I was not trying to get you worked up, it was just an observation. Also if you plan to get into larger scale excavation jobs I would get the 10K machine. I know they are more difficult to transport and somewhat wider, but you will need the increase dig depth and digging performance to be competative in the larger market. The difference in performance between the 7500 to the 10000 pound class is considerable. Check out Iron Planet it can save you money if you want a CAT.

[Scag48]

We're not going to be doing much larger excavation, looked at doing alot of retaining walls, maybe 10 or more a year in which case I would definately get at least a 10K machine, but Dad and I decided we just don't want to do that many. About 95% of the time, the 303CR we ordered will be PLENTY of a machine for our routine needs. I'm sure there will be an instance in which we need a bigger machine, but at only 5%, that doesn't pencil out to buy a bigger machine, we'll just rent as needed.

I'm sorry I exploded a little bit. I undrestand what you're saying about service and these machines not being in the shop, but for us we don't have a mechanic and any day that a machine is a day that we lost. Spokane is a long ways for us to go Takeuchi, I would have liked to try one out but our Cat dealer has just been too good to us. The dealer is good, the product is good and the price was pretty decent. Might there be better machines for our operation? Maybe, but for us the Cat 303CR worked flawlessly and we decided to go with that machine.

As far as larger excavation, I won't get into that business for at least 4 or 5 years until I'm out of college. When that happens, I will be buying no smaller than a 12K excavator for sure, then probably a 312 or equivelent.

[thepawnshop]

I really wanted to demo the Gehl, but when I went by the local dealer, their shop looked like a shed! I am not a JD "fanboy", but I am VERY pleased with my 320 skid steer (though I may trade up to one of the new CTL's this fall) and 35D mini. Regardless of whatever kind of product they have had in the past, the 05 models are right on!

Someone asked about demoing...both my CAT and JD dealer are right there within a couple of days max with whatever I have wanted to check out. Our Bobcat dealer would too, but I am not a fan of their product.

[ksss]

Skag,
Here are some of the results of the Iron Planet auction today. 02 303.5 16,500/ 02 303.5 18,500/ 04 303CR 249hrs $28,500.