Cat 304.5 Review...This is for you, Pawnshop

[Scag48]

Here's the rave review you've been looking for Pawnshop. I spent all day gettin pissed off at rocks and hauling machines around I'm dizzy.

Okay so I spent 8 hours setting rock for a retaining wall job that we've been hired to do. Didn't get done, but I've spent enough time in the seat of the 304.5 that I can give an honest opinion. The machine, being at least 3 years old, is quite a performer. It is fairly quick, not smokin' fast, but fast enough. It will lift A TON. If you're looking for alot of lift capacity, this machine has it, no problem at all lifting 900 pound rocks over the side, 3 feet up and 8-9 feet out, facing downhill even and then swinging uphill. But while I was out setting this wall, I'm only about halfway done with it, I realized all the trouble it was to get the 4 loads of rock that was needed to build this thing. The quarry is about 10 miles away from town, we have to haul the excavator out there with our gooseneck trailer, go get the dump trailer, drive back to the quarry, and then make as many loads necessary to get all the rock to the site, then go pick up the machine and haul it to the site. :dizzy: In theory, this works pretty well, but we can't haul mre than about 9K pounds in the trailer so it takes quite a few loads and the place is pretty far from town. Also, I realized today that setting a wall is frustrating. Sometimes it seems that you just can't ever get the rock you want to fit just right and I tend to have a short fuse. So, the whole idea of us buying a machine that is larger than a 303CR was to enable us to do these rocks walls, which in fact take so long and are quite aggrevating I don't know if I want to do very many of them. I think I've decided that with the $10K we save by buying a 303CR instead of something larger, we'll use that cash to pay for rentals on a larger machine if and when we need to build a wall, which won't even come close to 10K. So, in all, I think the 304.5 is an awesome machine. It digs well, lifts well, and all around performs awesome. If it wasn't for my lack of patience on building walls, we'd probably be doing more of them in which case we'd absolutely need a large machine, but I think we'll end up with a brand spanking new 303CR about the middle of next month.

[thepawnshop]

What kind of price are you being quoted for the 303CR?

[Scag48]

I think it's around $35K, not sure if that's with a thumb or not.

[thepawnshop]

I think it's around $35K, not sure if that's with a thumb or not.

The quote I just got from the Cat guy for the 304CR with a 24" & 12" bucket was $39,500. The machine is a demo (33 hours) and it is a BEAST! My biggest concern is that "biggest is not always better". The hydraulics on the Deere (which is simply a rebranded Hitachi) is much more responsive and smooth. The Cat seems a bit "stiff". It (the 304CR) DEFINATELY has awesome digging power, but the Deere is a very able machine as well, smaller (which means it can get inot tighter spaces) AND it is 4k less. Once again I find myself REALLY wanting to like the Cat, but after a couple of hours in the seat, I am still leaning towards the Deere.

Anyone wanting to share an opinion? I'm all ears!

[TerraFirma Excavating]

Wow, I think that's a great price on the 304CR. I demo'd one two years ago and really liked it. The price the dealer quoted me then was $40,200 with only 24" bucket. An comparable sized Deere machine was quoted to me at $50,000+!!! We must pay quite a bit more up here in Alaska.

The Cat 304CR, when I looked at it 2 years ago, needed a weld-on eye to mount a thumb. All in all, the thumb was going to add ~$4,500 to the price. I was also looking at Bobcat machines at that time. The Bobcat's come with an eye already mounted on the dipper arm straight from the factory. It was only going to be $1,200 to add a thumb to the Bobcat machine.

[Scag48]

Not a bad deal on 304CR Pawnshop, we were quoted $46,000 for a hyd. thumb, quick coupler, 24" digging bucket and a 53" cleanup bucket. Dad decided that we're going to get a 303CR so we can trailer the machine behind both trucks, otherwise we'd have to use our gooseneck for weight. I remember you asking why we use the bigger trailer for a 304 and it's because we can't put 10K pounds on our tiltbed. Also, we've had the 303 on about 5 sites since we recieved the machine about a week ago, sites that the 304.5 would be tough to get on, let alone a 304CR. I don't think I"ll get the chance to operate a 304CR anytime soon, dad pulled the trigger this morning and ordered a 303CR. Ordered a brand new 303 w/ quick coupler, hyd. thumb with thumb control repositioned to the right joystick (about $2k! :eek: ) 12" and 24" digging buckets and a 36" cleanup bucket. Out the door was about $39,000, tax included and the cost of repositioning the thumb control, which is rediculiously expensive but is definately worth it in my opinion. Should have the machine here in a couple weeks, they have to ship it from Seattle and get it to the shop to install the thumb and controller, gonna be sweet.

Now, I think I might understand how you're comparing the 304CR to the 35D as far as smoothness. The 304.5 is kind of the same way, not really "smooth" just kind of there as far as power goes. I'll agree those Deere machines probably have the larger Cat (304CR, 304.5, 305CR) machines beat in smoothness, but the 303CR CANNOT be beaten. It is one smooth puppy. This machine makes my dad look pretty decent with an excavator and he's never run one in his life until last Wednesday. Also, one feature I really like with Cat is the blade float feature. Makes grading on slopes so much easier than using our skid steer, i'm going take the excavator to all the sloped sites to do grading instead of the 216. Anyway, glad you at least tried the 304CR, I wish I could say that same, but I'm sure I'll have to put in a retaining wall sometime later this year and we'll rent to do it. Dad decided we're not going to push the market to do retaining walls. At first, he wanted to get into that market and maybe do 10-15 walls a year. He's changed his mind and said we will do them if it's convenient for us and just rent a machine when needed and get a piece (303CR) that makes more sense for the work we do rather than try to do alot of walls and buy a 304CR that would be overkill for about 80% of our jobs and would only serve us on about 20% of jobs that we need an excavator for, which includes retaining walls. Only 20% of use just doesn't make sense, we can use the 303 on every job, not just a few. Remember, renting is your friend and I believe what you're saying about "biggest isn't always better", I can relate to that. Anyway, order that 35D already and get to work!

[Gravel Rat]

Like I meantioned before seriously look at Kubota you really can't go wrong with a Kubota Mini excavator the one contractor I work for has been 161 in his operation for quite a few years. He is on the second new machine he bought one it worked out well used it for 5-6 years then traded it in on a new one and it works everyday.

For what you guys are looking at the 121-3 will do all your needs and more its a 9000lb machine.

I bet if you look at the Cat machine its prolly a Mitsubushi rebaged and repainted I know Cat Forklifts are that way.

[Scag48]

KX 121-3 is $47,000 here, completely not worth it. We looked into one, but they just didn't have what we wanted. The thumb control couldn't be moved up to the joystick, the travel pedals are crap, the dozer lever seemed to always be in my way, the joysticks require more effort than the 303CR, just a few things that wouldn't bother most people turned me away from a Kubota. If the pricing on a Kubota was a little more competitive, we would have looked into it and I would have just dealt with these little ergonomic problems, but they're almost more expensive than a Cat up here and the dealer support isn't nearly as good. Yes the Cat mini's have Mitsubishi engines in them, but all the componentry is Cat, that makes the difference.

[Gravel Rat]

You must have a Cat dealer that gives machines away because Cat is the most expensive machine to buy here and the most expensive to repair.

I looked up some used Cat prices I found a 302.5 its a 2002 model with 1500 hours on it selling for 32,000 dollars CND (25,600 US). I found another 302.5 2000 model its advertised for 64000 dollars CND

A Kubota 161 2004 model with 700 hours is 49,000Cnd 39,000 US another 2004 Kubota 161 200 hours 78,000 CND 62,000 US.

I couldn't find any 304 or 303 prices it seems like they are non existant in Canada even the largest Cat dealer in Canada doesn't have any in the used Inventory.

Anyhow to sum it up I still can't believe Cat is cheaper in the US but then again your gov't doesn't like Foriegn made equipment so its prolly one of the reasons. Cat must be getting expensive when some of the largest gravel mines are getting rid of Cat and going with other brands. Most of the excavation companies haven't owned a Cat excavator since the early 80s.

[Scag48]

I think Cat is more of an "American based" company. A company that is shown on the Dow Jones Industrial Average, one of 30, is viewed as a large company by the NYSE, let alone the rest of the US. I think you're right, the US is kind of against foreign trade, but Deere is pretty much a US company, why aren't they expensive as well? Hitachi and Komatsu are not in the US, and that's probably why they are so much cheaper for you in Canada. I believe our sales guy is also giving is a pretty good deal on our machine as we've done quite a bit of business with them and that's why we chose Cat, for their service and the great relationship we have with them. BTW, a 2002 302.5 with 1500 hrs for $25,000 US is a decent buy. The Kubota KX 161 is about like a Cat 305CR, and at $62,000 US, that's WAY too expensive. I can buy a brand new 305CR with thumb for about $52,000. Doesn't sound like Cat is the only brand up there that is expensive, sounds like you guys are paying alot for iron in general, regardless of brand.

[thepawnshop]

Scag, two of the biggest differences I have noticed between the 304CR and the 35D operationally is the facts that:

1. The hand controls on the JD are a bit higher...in the CAT, I find when I want the machine to swing right, I end up having to move my leg...the stick keeps hitting my knee.
2. When pulling material backwards on the Deere, you can control how fast it moves it, whereas on the CAT it only moves at one speed....S-L-O-W!

One final thing...the 304 DOES NOT offer an "idle down" feature which when you aren't operating the hydraulics reduces the amount of fuel the machine uses, thus cutting down on wasted fuel.

THe 304 is a nice machine, but lacks the control that the JD has IMO. I can't say the same for the 303 so I think you will probably be very happy with her.

[Gravel Rat]

The economy is booming so contractors are buying new excavators, trucks and other equipment. Most contractors have to wait for months for new machines to arrive. The excavator contractors are buying 160-200 sized machines as its the two common sizes. Mini excavators are not selling as fast because its a specialized market the money is in the medium sized equipment doing landclearing.

[Scag48]

Pawnshop, I understand what you're saying. The 304.5 was the same way, the stick and boom movement isn't quick and snappy like the 303CR is. I don't know why, but all the smaller machines I've run (303CR, 27CZTS) are very responsive in all aspects, even swing speed, and the bigger ones aren't, doesn't make sense. I'm glad we went with a 303 though, the 304.5 is here until Monday then the dealer will pick it up, I won't really miss it. It was a good machine, but it doesn't scream "run me!" like the 303 does. I enjoy operating the 303 more than the 304.5, it's just alot more fun to swing that smaller machine around. It's quick, responsive, it has travel pedals, thank god for that, and it's just an overall fun machine to operate. The only thing I'm somewhat concerned about is that they have to change out the right joystick to put the thumb controls on there, the stock joysticks aren't setup for the servo controls. The joystick they'll replace it with is like the ones on the 304.5, the older style joysticks which aren't bad by any means, they're comfortable, but I'm worried that the joystick response, or pull, won't be the same with a different joystick, but I could be wrong. In my experience with bigger machines, it usually doesn't change the servo output at all, the only thing that changes is the joystick itself and the actual feel is the same, am I correct? Any input Gravel Rat? I think I'm overreacting to this and I'm sure everything will be fine, but I'm the type to analyze just about everything. Hopefully we'll have the machine by the end of next week, hopefully, I'm crossing my fingers. Sales guy said 2 weeks, but figured it would be less than that, he said he didn't want to say it would be a week and have it be longer than that, but we signed papers on Tuesday so hopefully we'll have the piece by next Friday. I'll keep updated. Thanks for everyone's help! You going to order that 35D Pawnshop? Let me know how things work out.

BTW, where in BC are you Gravel Rat? Everytime I head up to Whistler to go skiing I drive through Squamish and am in awe at what they've done on the expansion of the highway, it's amazing where those guys were putting those excavators, OSHA down here in the states wouldn't have any of that. I commend you Canadian operators, you're the only ones willing to take some risks. Guys in these parts run and hide when the idea of climbing a slope in a 20 ton excavator comes up, I say bring it on.

[Gravel Rat]

I'am over the mountains towards the coast the best place to live actually anywhere in the Pacific Northwest is nice.

I haven't been to Squamish or on the Sea To Sky highway in a few years but I see a few blurbs on the news about the project widening the highway. I do know what the operators are doing is legal if they are working on the maximum gradeability of the machines which is usually 30%.

We do the same grades etc here too doing residential landclearing some places where excavators go will boggle some peoples minds. When your working in those conditions you have to be alert but its just part of the job.

There is alot of blasting to be done on the highway project so the excavators have to strip the overburden off the rock before anything can be done to it. The excavator operators build themselves a road so they can get up on to the ridge that has to be cut off and start scraping the topsoil off.

The biggest goal is keeping the machine shiny side up you know your in trouble when you flopped the machine on the side :laugh:

If you do start sliding make sure the tracks are straight and pointing down the hill so if the machine does start skiing you have a chance of trying to stop :gunsfirin

Like I said before I have had more scares in a 6000lb Bobcat mini than any other machine because the Bobcat feels so tippy. What I didn't like was if I lifted the blade the machine wanted to take off (slide).

It takes alot of years to get really brave on a excavator and do some tough things you learn to push a machine to its limits to get the most benefit out of it.

[thepawnshop]

You going to order that 35D Pawnshop? Let me know how things work out.

I am about 95% sure...

The ONLY thing that would keep me from pulling the trigger tomorrow is that I have a buyout offer on the table to buy my partner out from one fo the pawnshops I own down here In Roanoke, VA. If that goes through, I have to see where my money situation is at. Other than that, oh yeah...that 35D is MINE!!!!!

Gravel, I hear where you are coming from regarding the bigger machines, but for me, I would rather sub a guy like you for my "big stuff", and get a smaller machine to handle day to day chores around the jobsite...jobs that could have been done by hand but would take too much time. Plus, the "mini" is just fun as hell to operate! As much stress as I have at my other business (which I am trying to eliminate with the buyout) it's nice to get out in the skid or mini and just dig s**t up!

Congrats on the new machine Scag. I gotta ask...on a smaller machine like the 35D or the 303...is the thumb very handy? It is a $1,500 option on the JD and can be done "aftermarket", but I wonder with what it can lift if the thumb is worth it. I KNOW it is on the big machines, share your opinions on it regarding the little guys, please!

[Scag48]

I wouldn't buy an excavator without a thumb. Every excavator in these parts, small or large, have hydraulic thumbs, every piece. Even on these smaller machines, even though they won't lift huge rocks, the ability to grab rocks and place them where you want is very valuable. Like I said, our 303 will stack a small wall, it'll lift a pretty good size rock, but not enough to the point where it could place it 4 feet in the air where you'd need it on a large wall. $1500 for a thumb (assuming it's hydraulic) is CHEAP. The thumb for our machine was about $3000 and if you're going to get a thumb, get hydraulic, don't even bother with a fixed thumb. Also remember that the thumb holds dirt and other materials in the bucket if you're lifting high on the lift cycle. I also found it nice when backfiling behind the wall we installed. I would get a bucket full of dirt, close the thumb down on it, then swing over the back of the wall and curl out the bucket while "closing" the thumb so the thumb was always in contact with the bucket until its arc travel ends. Then the bucket would fall open and the dirt would drop straight down, alowing you to place dirt farther back than you could without because the thumb would be holding the dirt in the bucket while the bucket was basically rolled all the way out. Anyway, I wouldn't buy a machine without. Just allows you to diversify a little more. These machines might be smaller but they aren't unproductive by any means and I would love to rival a larger machine on some sites. The 303 slings a 24" bucket pretty well, it doesn't dig any slower than a 304.5 with the same size bucket, that's pretty impressive for a machine it's size.

[Gravel Rat]

I wouldn't have a machine without a hydraulic thumb either they are worth every penny spent. A mechanical thumb is okay but nothing beats a hydraulic thumb because you can grab rocks,bail brush etc. The local rental shop installed hydraulic thumbs on both of their 6000lb Bobcat rental machines.

[TerraFirma Excavating]

Spoke to my Cat dealer today. You got me thinking about a 303CR now, so I checked on prices. Wow, we much have really high prices here in Alaska. $47,000 for a new 2005 303CR w/ cab and heat, hydraulic thumb, and 16" bucket. A used 2004 303CR (169 hours) equipped the same is $40,000. I may have to check to see if it would be worth my while to buy one in Washington and have it shipped up here. Probably $0.30-$0.40 per pound shipping.

[badranman]

I have a Bobcat 430 and 328. Both have thumbs. I thought they might get in the way but any negative issues are far outweighed by the benefits. Like Scag mentioned, I find I can place spoil rocks further by rotating both bucket and thumb upwards and then when the boom is at it's max reach I'll lift the bucket a bit more and the rock will "roll" off the thumb and go farther than I could put it with the bucket alone.

[Scag48]

Terrafirma, $47,000 does sound kind of high, but a cab for our machine was quoted at about $6,000-$7,000 and I don't think that included A/C. We got a bunch of extra stuff, we spent almost $1800 on buckets, they didn't have any used ones and the thumb control was expensive, so if that was factored out, a 303CR with a hyd. thumb probably would have been closer to $35,000. If you're not dead set on a 303CR, the Anchorage NC Machinery has a brand new 304.5 for $37,500, a great deal. No thumb, but a great buy, that's for sure. Just curious, but a 16" bucket? The 303 comes standard with a 24" and it handles it pretty well for a machine it's size, just curious why you'd go down to that size bucket. Just looking for some insight. I wish we could have bought a 20" in case we get into some clay but with a quick coupler and a 12" bucket, I figure I'll put the 12" on there and tear it up then put the 24" on.

[TerraFirma Excavating]

NC Machinery orders in all there 303CR's with 16" buckets. That's just what they had on it. I think a 24" bucket would be fine on that sized machine. I looked at a 331G model Bobcat mini-x with cab and heat equipped with a 24" bucket and hydraulic thumb for about $47,000 also.

The Cat models did have the hand control coversion for the hydraulic thumb. The salesmans said this was a pricey aftermarket conversion and that Cat plans to start building them at the factory this way soon.

[Scag48]

Yeah, it is expensive to have this conversion done. $2,000 is what we paid to have our 303CR setup with the thumb hand control.

[ksss]

SKAG, go to IRON PLANET. They have numerous CAT mini excavators on this weeks auction. You could save money even after having it shipped. The new one at the CAT store has its shipping costs built in as well.