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bobcatnj
05-02-2005, 09:54 PM
anyone have pics of leveling the base ( screting, however you spell it) for pavers?

YardPro
05-02-2005, 09:59 PM
the layer of sand on top of the aggregate base IS NOT A LEVELING BASE... it is a setting base.....

any leveling should be done with the compacted aggregate base. the tolerance for this is +-3/8" per 10 feet.

hole in one lco
05-03-2005, 12:04 AM
hope this is what you are looking for

hole in one lco
05-03-2005, 12:06 AM
2222222222222222222222222222

Rex Mann
05-03-2005, 12:54 AM
Here are a couple.

Peace,

Rex

PaversInstalled.Com (http://paversinstalled.com)

cgland
05-03-2005, 07:39 AM
Hey Rex - Quick question....Why are your guys using a level on the screed rails?

Chris

mruth77
05-03-2005, 04:37 PM
Hole In One,
Can you email those instructions?
michaelruth77@hotmail.com

bobcatnj
05-03-2005, 07:04 PM
can you email those instructions too? thank you

spinlandcorp@yahoo.com

bobcatnj
05-03-2005, 07:05 PM
or where did you get the instructions? if online

hole in one lco
05-03-2005, 09:34 PM
the pics are in the mail should be there in 5 days ok im fing with you i emailed them

bobcatnj
05-03-2005, 09:47 PM
haha thanks 4 the pics

RedWingsDet
05-03-2005, 09:48 PM
Here are a couple.

Peace,

Rex

PaversInstalled.Com (http://paversinstalled.com)

is that copper pipe you use, and if so, when you get it how do you make sure its not bowed out, and also, what size pipe do you use?

RedWingsDet
05-03-2005, 09:50 PM
Hey Rex - Quick question....Why are your guys using a level on the screed rails?

Chris

most likely to make sure there is a SLIGHT angle of depression so the water doesnt stand on the pavers when it rains.

cgland
05-03-2005, 11:08 PM
Premier - Shouldn't that "angle of depression" :dizzy: be reflected in the base? Your base should already be pitched and perfect even before you screed your sand. The only time IMO you would be using a level while screeding your setting bed is if you are fudging it! If your base prep has been done correctly YOU DON'T NEED A LEVEL! GET IT!

Chris

RedWingsDet
05-03-2005, 11:11 PM
Premier - Shouldn't that "angle of depression" :dizzy: be reflected in the base? Your base should already be pitched and perfect even before you screed your sand. The only time IMO you would be using a level while screeding your setting bed is if you are fudging it! If your base prep has been done correctly YOU DON'T NEED A LEVEL! GET IT!

Chris

well I always screed my 21aa (base), then tamp it, then screed it again, and then I always screen my slag sand ( setting base), tamp it, and screed again and set my block in.

and i use the level everytime I screed. I rather be safe than sorry.

cgland
05-03-2005, 11:21 PM
Mark - Are you ICPI certified? A) You should never use stone screenings or the like as a setting bed. Washed sand ONLY! You can't settle the pavers into it thus you are not achieving the first part of the interlocking process. B) Never tamp your setting bed... again, for the above reason. C) Don't you prep your base? Your patio will reflect your base. Take some extra time and get your base perfect and you can leave your level in the truck when you screed. After all, 1" of "consistant" sand is all you need.

Chris

kootoomootoo
05-03-2005, 11:34 PM
Mark - Are you ICPI certified? A) You should never use stone screenings or the like as a setting bed. Washed sand ONLY! You can't settle the pavers into it thus you are not achieving the first part of the interlocking process. B) Never tamp your setting bed... again, for the above reason. C) Don't you prep your base? Your patio will reflect your base. Take some extra time and get your base perfect and you can leave your level in the truck when you screed. After all, 1" of "consistant" sand is all you need.

Chris

When I am trying to get real "pretty" I screed the final inch of base using fines/screenings.....Compact it and screed sand as per normal.

Drafto
05-04-2005, 12:41 AM
Question for you Rex......I know this isn't going to come out right, your portfolio is much better than mine, I do admire a lot of you work. But here goes - There are a lot of foot prints in your "pre-screeded" bedding sand. When you step in the sand, then screed over them, then place your pavers then compact it all. Aren't you afraid that the foot printed areas will not compact as consistently as the, what I will call "virgin" areas? Do you understand the question?

I am constantly on my guys to NOT step in the sand, we screed from the sides or from the middle but place the sand in front of us never to compact it whatsoever with a knee or foot. I would love to have you tell me I am being too perfectionate b/c it does take us some time to move materials around and being cautious of the sand and stuff.

Here is my legal disclaimer to this post:

Rex - I am NOT questioning your work or style you are well respected and knowledgeable, but I just wanted an explanation so I can sleep better tonight.

Later,
Dan

YardPro
05-04-2005, 08:00 AM
When I am trying to get real "pretty" I screed the final inch of base using fines/screenings.....Compact it and screed sand as per normal.


that's a HUGE NO NO..............

fines can " smear" and move
you should NEVER use fines in your setting bed.... your setting bed should have 0% passing seive 2000

and chris is correct...
your base should be within 3/8 per 10". you should not need any adjustments in your setting bed...

BMFD92
05-04-2005, 09:52 AM
When I am trying to get real "pretty" I screed the final inch of base using fines/screenings.....Compact it and screed sand as per normal.

You should take the ICPI course so you can learn why you that is the worst for your setting bed

motoraced
05-04-2005, 12:25 PM
i'm a stone guy, dont do much with pavers, etc, but at my friends home i installed a paver pation....all i did was 5 inches of stone dust, screeded and tamped to a 2% pitch away from the home, layed the pavers down. 7 years later, still looks brand new. why the sand? stone dont requre sand....

RedWingsDet
05-04-2005, 07:17 PM
Mark - Are you ICPI certified? A) You should never use stone screenings or the like as a setting bed. Washed sand ONLY! You can't settle the pavers into it thus you are not achieving the first part of the interlocking process. B) Never tamp your setting bed... again, for the above reason. C) Don't you prep your base? Your patio will reflect your base. Take some extra time and get your base perfect and you can leave your level in the truck when you screed. After all, 1" of "consistant" sand is all you need.

Chris

no, and yes I prep my base. I just like to make sure its all level so I level and screed my setting too. maybe i shouldnt. and next time ill use sand ontop the 21aa, instead of slag sand

mbella
05-04-2005, 08:29 PM
Motoraced, stone dust particles are flat and elongated and do not compact as well as course concrete sand. Also, they do not drain as well as course sand. Maybe in your case soil conditions were ideal and it didn't make a difference. However, I'll stick with course concrete sand.

kootoomootoo
05-04-2005, 10:06 PM
"Originally Posted by kootoomootoo
When I am trying to get real "pretty" I screed the final inch of base using fines/screenings.....Compact it and screed sand as per normal."

You should take the ICPI course so you can learn why you that is the worst for your setting bed

I think you and your friend might want to take that $250 for a piece of paper from ICPI and look up the difference between a setting bed and the base itself. Might want to think about it. I can screed and compact fines until the sun goes down to get to the height I want.If the fines cant be compacted enough per your argument to get a level base without somehow filtering through the 411's how the hell do you think the sand will fair. The fines aint going anywhere, I screed 1in of sand as per normal when I have the required elevation.

mbella
05-04-2005, 11:20 PM
Kootoo.com (joking), are you saying you put 1" of stone dust on top of the base aggregate as a regular practice, or you choke the base aggregate with stone dust as needed?

Rex Mann
05-05-2005, 01:54 AM
We are using the level to make sure our pitch is where it is supposed to be....."trust but verify"...approach. We use the ICPI standards, + or - 3/8-inch over 10-feet. We try very hard to be perfect, however sometimes we are not. Therefore, we almost always check our pipes for piece-of-mind. Seldom do we pitch 1/4-inch per foot usually it's about half that.

Walking in the sand.......good thing you did not see the bobcat running over it. LOL :p

When the sand is loose or does not have any edge restraint, then it will never fully compact. We do not worry about it, and we have never had a problem. In a perfect world...maybe, but this is construction and time is money.

We use both EMT, electrical metal tubing, AKA electrical conduit, available at any big box home store. We also use steel gas lin(pipe) both are 1-inch O.D. (outside diameter). However, we also carry 1/2-inch pipes as well. we use this for screeding over concrete for overlays. We also keep all our screed pipes in a 10-foot long 6-inch diameter PVC pipe with caps on both ends. Makes it much easier lugging them around job-to-job. And, it also helps keep them straight.

Peace,

Rex

BTW: ICPI class May 12 and 13 2005 in Sunny Phoenix, Arizona sponsored by Belgard/Oldcastle with me as your instructor. We also do a half-day hands on as well.

Paversinstalled.Com (http://paversinstalled.com)

kootoomootoo
05-05-2005, 08:02 AM
Kootoo.com (joking), are you saying you put 1" of stone dust on top of the base aggregate as a regular practice, or you choke the base aggregate with stone dust as needed?

Not regular practice...like I said "real pretty" ..maybe I need 1/4 -3/8in here and there to get the pitch right.......having said that I haven't done it this year. We use it on the base of walls to get the level right...same analogy.
Rex Mann already said he screeds 1 part portland 5 parts sand as the base for walls.

YardPro
05-05-2005, 08:09 AM
"Originally Posted by kootoomootoo
When I am trying to get real "pretty" I screed the final inch of base using fines/screenings.....Compact it and screed sand as per normal."



I think you and your friend might want to take that $250 for a piece of paper from ICPI and look up the difference between a setting bed and the base itself. Might want to think about it. I can screed and compact fines until the sun goes down to get to the height I want.If the fines cant be compacted enough per your argument to get a level base without somehow filtering through the 411's how the hell do you think the sand will fair. The fines aint going anywhere, I screed 1in of sand as per normal when I have the required elevation.


if you actually knew more about what you're talking about you would realize that it's not the compaction that iss the issue with the fines...
they can slide on eachother and move laterally.. also becuace of thier being able to slide in each other they do not spread the load as well as a coarse material...

EVERY paver manufacturer backs up the icpi criteria for base and leveling bed..

also why do you not try and get " real pretty" on every job??

why is there any more effort on making pretty on some jobs and not others.....

kootoomootoo
05-05-2005, 08:29 AM
if you actually knew more about what you're talking about you would realize that it's not the compaction that iss the issue with the fines...
they can slide on eachother and move laterally.. also becuace of thier being able to slide in each other they do not spread the load as well as a coarse material...

EVERY paver manufacturer backs up the icpi criteria for base and leveling bed..

also why do you not try and get " real pretty" on every job??

why is there any more effort on making pretty on some jobs and not others.....

Next time i order 3/4 minus I'll ask them to remove the fines......just for you.

motoraced
05-05-2005, 01:40 PM
if you actually knew more about what you're talking about you would realize that it's not the compaction that iss the issue with the fines...
they can slide on eachother and move laterally.. also becuace of thier being able to slide in each other they do not spread the load as well as a coarse material...

EVERY paver manufacturer backs up the icpi criteria for base and leveling bed..

also why do you not try and get " real pretty" on every job??

why is there any more effort on making pretty on some jobs and not others.....

i dont get it, concrete sand is more fine than stonedust. i see using sand as a faster, simpler way to level your base.

YardPro
05-05-2005, 06:43 PM
Next time i order 3/4 minus I'll ask them to remove the fines......just for you.

that's a stupid statement.... the fines are necessary in the aggregate mix to fill the voids from the large stone. you should have no more than 12% ( i think that's the magic number)fines... some are necessary, but too much is a bad thing....

why don't you do a little research.

motoraced----
fines and stone dust are different.. as long as the stone dust is granite and not limestone ( elongated pieces) and washed free of fines it will work for a setting bed...

whatever setting bed you use should have 0% passing in a sieve 200. fines will pass, coarse sand and stone dust will not..
if it does you should not use it..

kootoomootoo
05-05-2005, 09:54 PM
Originally Posted by kootoomootoo
Next time i order 3/4 minus I'll ask them to remove the fines......just for you.

[QUOTE=YardPro]that's a stupid statement.... the fines are necessary in the aggregate mix to fill the voids from the large stone. you should have no more than 12% ( i think that's the magic number)fines... some are necessary, but too much is a bad thing....

Thanks Captain.

Rex Mann
05-06-2005, 12:28 AM
The role of fines are not to "plug" holes created by larger stone. The role of fines, material passing the #200 sieve, is to hold moisture. The moisture acts as a lubricant and allows the material to move around. During this rearranging, is when the compaction takes place. Without moisture potential compaction is lessened, without fines moisture is lessened. To much moisture or to many fines lessens the ability of the material to be compacted.

As for screenings, they have over 12% fines. And, they are elongated. Meaning, they do not lockup or interlock as concrete sand does.

Peace,

Rex

PaversInstalled.Com (http://paversinstalled.com)

motoraced
05-08-2005, 11:25 AM
i stilldont get it b/c you mention compaction....compact sand and then step on it, you leave your foot print, step on tamped stonedust, it's like concrete.

Rex Mann
05-08-2005, 02:26 PM
When you compact the concrete sand, the pavers are on top of it. The pavers are pushed down into the sand. At the same time, the sand is pushed up between the joints of the pavers. This is the start of the interlocking process. Sweeping sand into the joints and re-compacting and more sand completes the interlock process.

When you use screenings, they do get as hard as concrete, therefore no screenings are coming up from the bottom of the joints. This does lessen the interlock from the bottom. And, many screenings are larger than the joints, once again lessened interlock.

Peace,

Rex

PaversInstalled.Com (http://paversinstalled.com)

Laurentian
05-09-2005, 11:01 PM
Here are a couple.

Peace,

Rex

PaversInstalled.Com (http://paversinstalled.com)

Hey Rex, I was checking out your pics and i noticed the void on the steps between the caps and the next riser. Are you going to fill that with the pavers? Do you glue the caps and block down or use morter?

Thanks James

Rex Mann
05-10-2005, 12:41 AM
Those steps have a paver inlay. And we use an epoxy instead of mortar.

Peace,

Rex

PaversInstalled.Com (http://paversinstalled.com)

RedWingsDet
05-10-2005, 10:17 PM
Rex.... I just did a retaining wall and realised how much cutting caps SUCK! It takes so long to get it cut. Do you have any tips? Im using a 4" tile wet saw and I have to make two passes through the cap, and it takes like 5min just toget one cut and I have to cut like 15-20. btw. its alanblock, if that helps any. thanks

hole in one lco
05-10-2005, 11:54 PM
Rex.... I just did a retaining wall and realised how much cutting caps SUCK! It takes so long to get it cut. Do you have any tips? Im using a 4" tile wet saw and I have to make two passes through the cap, and it takes like 5min just toget one cut and I have to cut like 15-20. btw. its alanblock, if that helps any. thanks
chop saw with a diamond blade

mbella
05-11-2005, 12:15 AM
Rex, is "trust, but verify an ICPI method?"

Rex Mann
05-11-2005, 01:47 AM
No, its more of a personal character flaw I have. LOL

Peace,

Rex
PaversInstalled.Com (http://paversinstalled.com)

viet_jon
08-08-2008, 12:16 AM
When I am trying to get real "pretty" I screed the final inch of base using fines/screenings.....Compact it and screed sand as per normal.


sorry for the bump....


but could someone explain this to a newbie please.

What Kootoomootoo is saying is, he lays some screening on the compacted crushed stone, run the plate compactor over, then add the final laying bed?


why shouldn't you do this?

AztlanLC
08-08-2008, 01:48 AM
because ICPI says so, cmon guys we make such a big deal out of 1" which in most cases has nothing to do with most failures, the real problem with stone dust that I have seeing is eflorescents.