To the pros ,what is your opinion?

[tonym]

Homeowner here, would like to hear your opinions on who is right or wrong.
I had 10 6' Douglas Firs planted 4 years ago by a landscape company. They had a one year warranty. Two of them died in less then the year and the others looked bad as well but did not die. The landscaper replaced the two dead trees and said if the others dont make it he would replace them as well. Well three more years later these other trees continue to look worse and are actually smaller then when they were planted. The year after they were planted I had a person from local agriculture dept (I forget the name of the place) look at the trees to see if it was a disease or what was wrong, he advised they were planted too deep . I let the landscaper know this , and he said he did have bad help that year , and if there is problems he would replace them.
So now back to the year 2005. I let the landscape company know in March ,5 of the remaining 7 trees need to be replaced , I even told him I would pay for the trees if he installed them at no charge. He agreed, then when I asked him for the price he was charging $240/tree, the same tree at the landscape place down the road retail is $119. I took this as rediculios and told him so. I bought the trees from the other company and panted them myself. That was problem number 1.
Here is number two, another tree planted last summer from the same company a 12' Japanese pine $499 + 200 to plant, died within two weeks. SO he said he would replace 1st thing is spring, because fall is not a good time to plant long needle pines??? SO I agree , what ever is best. This is last fall, I asked to be first on his list in spring to have this tree replaced, he agreed. It is now May and this tree is still not relaced. AM I crazy or is this company wrong in there treatment to its customers? I have used them for 10 years , probably spent about $30,000 with them.
Obviously I am done using them now.
What would you guys do for your customers in these situations?Am I expecting too much?

[dvmcmrhp52]

Two things.............
Stop using him.
Start taking better care of your landscape investments.

I don't care if trees were planted too deep, they've lasted four years, which means you didn't do your part either.

A good landscaper would have explained the necessary care and would have made sure it happened, no one wants to give away free planting stock....................

Just my opinion.............

[northwest lawn]

if trees were planted to deep they puked from to much water there for its the landscape companys fault not the homeowner. what kind of soil were the trees planted in?

[dvmcmrhp52]

if trees were planted to deep they puked from to much water there for its the landscape companys fault not the homeowner. what kind of soil were the trees planted in?


Not after four years is isn't................. :cool:

[northwest lawn]

when trees are planted to deep they slowly die. trust me we just covered it in arboriculture says so right in the book

[sheshovel]

The landscaper is in the wrong here and there is no doubt in my mind.
Two tree's dieing the first year out of ten is a BIG RED FLAG to me.It takes several years for a tree to die from being planted too deep.
Regardless the landscaper made a verbal agreement to make it right.Then he made money on fixing his own screw-up too.
Why you agreed to pay for the tree's is beyond me. ;) Maybe you did not water properly?Does not matter,you are not asking for anything that was not promised to you.The guy should have paid for the replacements AND planted them all for NoCharge. :angry:
Another BIG RED FLAG is the fact that he charged the client $499.00 for a 12'Jap pine and another $200.00 to plant it.That is outrageous charging in my opinion.
By my calculations and the price of the same size Jap Pine here that should have cost the client no more than $350.00 to $400.00 for tree AND planting put together.NOT $700.00
so this guys a rip off.This is my professional opinion ........SheShovel

[olderthandirt]

when trees are planted to deep they slowly die. trust me we just covered it in arboriculture says so right in the book
Title of thread
"To the pros ,what is your opinion"
It did not ask what you read about in school today :realmad:
After 4 yrs its not the landscapers fault. there are many possabilitys that could have caused it to slowly die. We have heard your side of the story and I would love to here the landscapers version of it. Obviously you must like there work to have spent that much $$$ and I'm sure they would not walk away from a good paying customer with out reason. Something does not add up!

[nocutting]

Sure this landscaper is outa line in his planting procedures and his warranty.But my comment is regarding your thoughts on the cost of the stock and planting charges? How can you be so condesending when you dont have all the facts[ lets just hang the guy since he doesnt back his warranty]...In my area all the nurseries are different, obviously the homeowner went to a retail establishment......Was he lookin at containerized stock or B&B, How was this stock measured for height?ect,ect,ect, About the planting cost, again your givein a stock answer on how you may charge. Isnt there a possible reason his prices were higher than yours?...Maybe he included pick-up & delivery in his price'in,Maybe he also included soil amendments / starter fertilzer in his quote as well?....And how about the actual planting of the tree? We all have a standard for priceing, wheather you mark the item up 3-times or you double-it and charge labour?...On a "Cake walk" I go with the 3-X's the wholesale cost, but if its not easy I go with 2x's + labour [ almost like T & M], maybe this homeowers soil is like concrete, & "Blasting caps are needed to open up a hole", or to get to the plant site its all up hill?....Sheshovel I think you are way outa line here, in my area a 12 ft pine would cost about $225 x 3 is $675 on the most basic install, now add in the varibles?....I luv when people bash a guy who isnt around to defend himself.....of course these are just my thoughts? :) The landscaper is in the wrong here and there is no doubt in my mind.
Two tree's dieing the first year out of ten is a BIG RED FLAG to me.It takes several years for a tree to die from being planted too deep.
Regardless the landscaper made a verbal agreement to make it right.Then he made money on fixing his own screw-up too.
Why you agreed to pay for the tree's is beyond me. ;) Maybe you did not water properly?Does not matter,you are not asking for anything that was not promised to you.The guy should have paid for the replacements AND planted them all for NoCharge. :angry:
Another BIG RED FLAG is the fact that he charged the client $499.00 for a 12'Jap pine and another $200.00 to plant it.That is outrageous charging in my opinion.
By my calculations and the price of the same size Jap Pine here that should have cost the client no more than $350.00 to $400.00 for tree AND planting put together.NOT $700.00
so this guys a rip off.This is my professional opinion ........SheShovel

[northwest lawn]

Title of thread
"To the pros ,what is your opinion"
It did not ask what you read about in school today :realmad:
After 4 yrs its not the landscapers fault. there are many possabilitys that could have caused it to slowly die. We have heard your side of the story and I would love to here the landscapers version of it. Obviously you must like there work to have spent that much $$$ and I'm sure they would not walk away from a good paying customer with out reason. Something does not add up!

what makes someone a pro is what they have learned not from how many **** ups they have made. i have never had a tree die in the four years i have been doing it.

[tonym]

The trees were well taken care of, they were watered the way he always told me to water the trees. Like I said I have used this landscaper in the past for all my landscape , and yes I loved his work, it was always large healthy trees and bushes and great design, and I never lost a tree. But then this last group of trees 4 feays ago, and another tree forgot about a pin oak, was dead when he lapnted it, thta one he replaced right away. These trees were watered once to twice/week , with slow trickle from hose for 15 mins each for the first year, that is how he recomends trees be watered. My soil is fast draining soil , shale. As far as my ground and the way the trees were taken care of , all my other trees do great. The reason I offered to pay for the trees if he payed the labor was because I like this guy and his work. But not any more. I think the problem the trees were planted too deep was because he had another company use a backhoe to dig the holes, I think the holes were just too big, and when they planted them they just put them in the hole and back filled. I was always happpy to pay pros to do the work and do it right . I rented a little backhoe to dig the 5 sickly pines out, and planted the new trees. The backhoe cost me $290, the trees cost me 125 each delivered, took me two hours to dig them out, and 3 hours to plant the new ones. He wanted to charge me $1200 to replace the trees and he considred that the cost of the trees only without labor.
Thats really not the part that has me :angry: , because I have already dealt with that. The thing that has me :realmad: , is about the jap pine, bought last summer, died right away, and now we in May and it is still not replaced. I have talked to him 3 times now. He says its been too wet ????
It has rained like one day a week here. $700 for a tree planted and I got to look at it alive 1 week, now almost a year later and just a hole (they did come out and remove the dead tree last year).
BTW, the trees were all B&B.
The trees I dug out still had the wires baskets around the root ball, the roots never grew out of the rootball after 4 years.

[YardPro]

first off..

the black pine is not priced that high.. we would charge about the same for it...

next why would you need a backhoe to dig the holes?????

there must be some really hard soil there....

[tonym]

That is correct, it is shale. But for all my other trees and lanscape areas he did not use a backhoe. But for these trees he did, because had a backhoe come in to dig a pond for me, so while digging the pond e dug the tree holes. I used a backhoe because I am one person and it wuld be very difficult for me as one person to dig 5 holes 3-4' wide x 22" deep in my soil, and also to remove the old trunk and root ball. I would have been able to do it, but i would rather pay to rent the backhoe to make it easy.

[tonym]

Here is a pic of part of the front of my house, it doesnt show the bad trees, they are on the side. But it shows some of the good landscape that this lanndscaper did.
The arbavida in the background are my neighbors , not mine.

[sheshovel]

For one thing nocutting.if you read the thread right you would know that the homeowner did not buy the tree's that died the landscaper did. :rolleyes:
And as you can see in the above post,when the hmownr did go buy the replacement trees they were $125.0O RETAIL.So the landscapers price would have been much less than RETAIL price am I correct??OK lets say his lndscprs price is 25% off retail
(not much really but I'm close)$100.00 x 3 =$300.00 plus delivery so say keep the $200.00 planting fee(still say outrageous dug holes with a backhoe and dident cut the baskets or add topsoil to the shale)
I still stick to the area of pricing I said before but OK may have gone to $500.00MAX. :dizzy:

The point is..the guy paid that then had dieing tree's and informed the lndscpr right away NOT 4 YEARS LATER HE TOLD HIM RIGHT AWAY!
and was promised replacement. :blob3: THAT's why I said
what I said about this guy.
OK I will concede that I may have been a bit one sided without both sides of the story here.
But haven't heard of a landscaper asking about this problem or trying to fiqure out what was happening with the tree's herenow have I?

The homeowner is and I am telling him what I think.I also have never lost a tree in 12 yrs planting besides one Pine and that was from the client drowning it.Pines love rocky shaley soil.Baskets weren't cut/ no root growth out of the baskets/tree's too low and agreements not kept,charging for work he should have made right for N/Chg ......

[tonym]

The reason that I liked this landscaper in the past is because he used to do good work and he has his own nursery , probaly close to 60 acres of trees , some that have been there a long time and are quite large for sale, and a huge variety of unsusual trees. So its not like using a landscaper and picking trees from a seperate nursery. However that is what I will do now, I will buy my trees from another local nursery which is what I did when I replaced these 5 trees. The nursery where I bought the 5 trees is only 3 miles from my house, and the landscape company/nursery with the bad service is only 2 miles from me, so its not like they have far to go.

and its not a black pine, it was a japanese white pine.

[Remsen1]

I'd have to see it for myself but when I think of shale soil I am picturing a shale creek bed, I am picturing very poor soil for growing anything. But like I said I would have to see it for myself.

Based on my vision of the project, which could be WAY off, I am envisioning the need to dig the holes very wide, remove the shale from the premises, plant the trees while filling the holes with quality top soil. Remember I am assuming that your soil is extremely poor.

[dvmcmrhp52]

O.K., here's my last couple of cents worth.............

If the trees that were replaced had no root growth beyond the original rootball as described then I'll go back to my begining statement concerning lack of proper care.

Any tree that's been in the ground for 4 years will have plenty of roots if proper fertilization was done to create that growth along with proper watering.
In my opinion watering for 15 minutes with a trickle from a hose once or twice a week is hardly appropriate for soil such as you have described.

Somewhere along the line someone dropped the ball.

[tonym]

As you can see in the pic of some of my other trees and lawn, things grow well in my yard. The water schedule is what the landsacper said is the way to go. I also asked him about making the holes wider and using better grade top soil when the trees were first planted four years ago, he siad no, that was not necesary , and would actually be worse for the trees.

[dvmcmrhp52]

As you can see in the pic of some of my other trees and lawn, things grow well in my yard. The water schedule is what the landsacper said is the way to go. I also asked him about making the holes wider and using better grade top soil when the trees were first planted four years ago, he siad no, that was not necesary , and would actually be worse for the trees.




I don't disagree that your landscaper didn't quite do his job......................

[landscapingpoolguy]

Do you other guys get warrantys on your plants? I buy at wholesale and recieve no warranty with the nursery. I also do not give a warranty and infact all planting jobs the customer initals on the contract that they understand this is a no warranty install. I do however offer a purchase of a warrany for %15 of the total cost of the project. When I go to the nursey I try to pick good stock, but ya never know, the plant could have some shock during transport, or could have been in shock when it was brought from the farm to the nursery, or could not have gotten enuff water, or what ever. In my opinion there are just too many variables to worry about when it comes to plants. Its rare that I have plants die, but on occasion I have had some situations where I've actually lost money on a job a year later trying to fulfill a warranty claim. Nothing hurts a landscaper more then that. Its a shame that your in this situation, but the bottom line is that this landscaper doesnt want to loose even a labor hour to replace your plants. He may be on a tighter budget then you think and providing a free warranty service, just may hurt him too much at this time of the year. We did have a long winter and a very late start to spring.I know guys out there with full time employees are just strating to recoup from the winter this time of the year now.

Chuck

[sheshovel]

Tree's don't need fertilization to create root growth.Once or twice a week is plenty of water for a new tree as long as it is a slow long soak.And as you can see he kept all the others alive,why would he have dropped the ball on these?

[nocutting]

Regarding where the Homeowner can / did shop.......We havea place called"Cheap Sams", its way out....Homerowners flock there, to get "Wholesale Prices" [ wink, wink.] Never have I seen a professional shop there, Never have I ever been there?......Another 1, the "Home Depot" only gets / sells #2 stock, [ I know the grower], thats what they pay for, thats what they get!.....Picture this, a Landscaper goes to a nursery, he or she hand selects the "Speciman" as well as the rest of the plant material.....Is that hand selected plant material & 'Speciman" now worth more?.....It sure is!!!!!!!! [ how do you think the "Pro" gets paid for his or her time?.......Sheshovel picture this.....I design for 3-other companies in my area,#1, I meet with their clients as an Independent Landscape Designer, on meeting 2- I show them the plans I've prepared & discuss their budget, on meeting #3 we go to a major highend retail nursery, for a walk through-view the plants, look at pots, select the stone,& make any changes as needed to the plans.......Where do you think my 15% comes from?[I now have a total of 10 field hours and 2 drawing hrs logged, includeing travel ]- thats $900-1500.00 per sale, and yes I'll be there on the day of installation, mmmmh, still think you are alittle rigid....you've got this 1 price fits all concept goin on?....maybe you choose not to pay yourself for all your time?..."God Bless You".....For one thing nocutting.if you read the thread right you would know that the homeowner did not buy the tree's that died the landscaper did. :rolleyes:
And as you can see in the above post,when the hmownr did go buy the replacement trees they were $125.0O RETAIL.So the landscapers price would have been much less than RETAIL price am I correct??OK lets say his lndscprs price is 25% off retail
(not much really but I'm close)$100.00 x 3 =$300.00 plus delivery so say keep the $200.00 planting fee(still say outrageous dug holes with a backhoe and dident cut the baskets or add topsoil to the shale)
I still stick to the area of pricing I said before but OK may have gone to $500.00MAX. :dizzy:

The point is..the guy paid that then had dieing tree's and informed the lndscpr right away NOT 4 YEARS LATER HE TOLD HIM RIGHT AWAY!
and was promised replacement. :blob3: THAT's why I said
what I said about this guy.
OK I will concede that I may have been a bit one sided without both sides of the story here.
But haven't heard of a landscaper asking about this problem or trying to fiqure out what was happening with the tree's herenow have I?

The homeowner is and I am telling him what I think.I also have never lost a tree in 12 yrs planting besides one Pine and that was from the client drowning it.Pines love rocky shaley soil.Baskets weren't cut/ no root growth out of the baskets/tree's too low and agreements not kept,charging for work he should have made right for N/Chg ......

[UNISCAPER]

There are two strong arguements for and against wire baskets around root balls. In my opinion, from the school of thoughts I have been in, the basket should not matter much, we plant trees in wooden boxes, and there is controversy over removal of the box bottom or not, and I have seen good and bad examples for both.

As far as a warantee after this amount of time? Does GM or Ford warrantee their trucks after you have driven over the limit? Or does your builder warrantee beyond the time period? It's no different in our profession, as soon as we staret doing so, people push for more and more until there is no margin left to profit from.

I can understand your concern over a $100.00 or so difference from the plants you saw and the plants he wants to provide. Consider this. If nursery stock is cheap, there is usually a reason. Particularly with evergreen trees, you want those which were grown in as close to native soil from your region as you can get. Every year back in Illinois we would see heards of traveling gypsies and vagabonds pull up in large box trucks loaded with nursery stock. They would bring it out of Tennessee, Kentucky, Washington state, etc. The issue was soil incompatability. The trees they planted cost half what we bought our stock for. And, after 6 months, to 3 years, those trees chaed from evergreens, the a new variety, Nevergreens.
So in thatrespect, you do get what you pay for. I don't know what stock in your state goes for, however I can tell you that a 6' pines 4 years ago were around $200.00 give or take a buck or two.

Last thing. Your contractor told you to water the trees....How frequently

The best way to wate a tree is a slow deep soaking about once a week when brand new, after that cut it back to once a month unless you see signs of dry plants. With a pine, that tree could have been dead the day it was planted and you would not ever know for 6 months. If you over water a pine, they will do as you describe, wither and die. They don't like wet feet.

[sheshovel]

Nocutting ,no I do not have a "ridgid"pricing structure,but I do stand behind my work,and I keep my word,I am a "Pro" this is what I do for a living.
If a client told me within the first year the tree's did not look good,and I said"Well keep and eye on them and if the start to die call me and I will replace them"and he called me ,I would eat the tree's,

if I found the problem to be pointing in his direction he would eat them
But see this would not ever happen to me because
#1-I don't install tree's that look bad to begin with(he did),#2-If there is a problem I check the tree's immediately to determine the cause(he diden't)and fix it(he diden't)#3-I do follow-ups on my jobs to make sure everythings going ok(he dident)#4-I don't make promises to my clients that I can't afford to keep(he did)
It is common practice to guarantee your planting installations for a year.
Yes I do have a warranty with my nursery as far as if a plant dies I take it back and they replace it not a problem(I have only had to do this once or twice)
I don't charge my clients
$900.00 t0 $1500.00 to meet with them,pick out some plants ,make them a plan then do a simple walkthru with them.And show up on site and that's it

.When they hire me that's all included in the job price and installation ect ect. I need all these things to execute my plans and install the job.
I back up my work and my word is good and that's two things that separate me and make me good at what I do.I follow through

[tonym]

(Tree's don't need fertilization to create root growth.Once or twice a week is plenty of water for a new tree as long as it is a slow long soak.And as you can see he kept all the others alive,why would he have dropped the ball on these)
Thanks shovel for that satement. And my landscaper has also told me not to fertilze the trees, that they do not need it.
He finally replaced the Japanese white pine from last year on friday, so at least that was done.
This landscaper is not just a landscaper, he is a nursery, landscape companys come to him to buy trees, so I always thought I was avoiding the middle man dealing with him, but after seeing prices on very healthy trees at the largest nursery in my area at 1/2 his price I changed my mind.
When he called me to tell me he was planting the white pine that died in August, he told me I need to be moe patient, and that I just dont understand the nursery business, and digging trees out of the ground.

[AGLA]

If you want to talk the talk, you have to be prepared to walk the walk.

Someone doing low bid work with low rent plants and then writing in a warranty is either taking a greater risk or is a fraud for not backing up the warranty.

In order to stand behind a good warranty, you need to buy quality and to mark up the plants high enough to "underwrite" your warranty. Hopefully, you workers will be well trained and responsible enough to plant properly to give these plants the best start at their new homes.

I homeowner should not expect to get more than what they pay for and a contractor should not expect to gain credibility from making gaurantees with no intention of backing them up.

That is the problem with running a landscape business without a solid experience, know how, and reputation. It leaves you cutting prices and corners. That does not afford you the ability to develop a solid reputation. Someone told me, a long time ago, that once you do discount work, you are then always a discounter. I have learned that to be true.

[Diveguy]

It's just as easy to kill a very high-quality specimen as a HD #2! Improper planting is typically homeowner domain and hence paying an experienced nursery crew is usually the best bet especially on high-priced larger specimens. The original poster identified that an arborist or someone that was knowledgeable looked at the questionable trees and indicated that they were planted too deep. The landscaper recognized that he had poor help that year .... he probably shouldv'e reviewed the specific crew's work if he knew that there were ongoing problems. Defntely a very expensive lesson for the landscaper ....

Bob

[tonym]

Thats my thoughts Diveguy. Except it wasnt an expensive mistake for the landscaper, because he didnt replace many of the trees, I did, so it was expensive for me the homeowner.

[dvmcmrhp52]

(Tree's don't need fertilization to create root growth.Once or twice a week is plenty of water for a new tree as long as it is a slow long soak.And as you can see he kept all the others alive,why would he have dropped the ball on these)
Thanks shovel for that satement. And my landscaper has also told me not to fertilze the trees, that they do not need it.
He finally replaced the Japanese white pine from last year on friday, so at least that was done.
This landscaper is not just a landscaper, he is a nursery, landscape companys come to him to buy trees, so I always thought I was avoiding the middle man dealing with him, but after seeing prices on very healthy trees at the largest nursery in my area at 1/2 his price I changed my mind.
When he called me to tell me he was planting the white pine that died in August, he told me I need to be moe patient, and that I just dont understand the nursery business, and digging trees out of the ground.



Trees once established do not need fertilizer........true.
Trees that have just been planted need root growth to survive.........how to get that root growth? Well, you can hope that nature takes care of it or.........you can treat the trees or other landscape plants with products such as upstart with vitamin B1 to promote that root growth, ROOT growth not top growth from ordinary balanced fertilizers.
I don't plant anything without upstart.........Why?
I'd rather not replace plant materials.

I've already saved a christmas tree whose rootball was completely detroyed during transport and had nothing but a few main roots left for planting after my kids enjoyed it for christmas.............how did that tree survive?


As for the staement by sheshovel concerning watering............"once or twice a week is plenty of water for a new tree is plenty of water as long as it is a slow long soak"

15 minutes once or twice a week in soil that drains quickly is not what I consider a "long, slow soak"

And so it goes.................I don't replace plants, they all grow for some reason.................. :waving:

[sheshovel]

There is no scientific proof that vitamin B-1 promotes root growth, there have been studies that show it makes no diff at all in the establishment of tree's as a matter of fact.and not only that unless you apply it to the planting hole at least 24 hours bfr planting,it's not available to the roots anyway

[dvmcmrhp52]

There is no scientific proof that vitamin B-1 promotes root growth, there have been studies that show it makes no diff at all in the establishment of tree's as a matter of fact.and not only that unless you apply it to the planting hole at least 24 hours bfr planting,it's not available to the roots anyway


Just one example sheshovel, A high phosphorus fertilizing agent for root growth...........pick one...............

[sheshovel]

HUH?please clarify

[dvmcmrhp52]

HUH?please clarify



Upstart with B1 was just an example...............
Pick a fertilizer that will promote root growth not top growth when transplanting.
A healthy root system is what sustains a plant and promotes the uptake of available nutrients, a tree that has been in the ground for 4 years and has no root growth cannot and will not survive. Obviously nature didn't provide the necessary ingredients for root growth to occur even if planted too deep...........If healthy and vigorous root growth had occured the trees would have survived the extra deep planting.........
Unless they were planted 2 feet too deep the trees could have been saved.

[sheshovel]

No Obviously the landscaper dident create or provide the proper environment for the roots to grow or the trees would have survived,too deep of planting is the #1 cause of tree death.I beg to disagree but planting a tree even a few inches too deep will kill it.because if the trunk flare is buried it's a gonner sooner or later.And I do agree the trees might have been saved,if the landscaper had taken the time to check out what was going on with them when 1st notified about them failing to thrive,if they were too deep that can be fixed.Instead he choose to tell the client that he would replace them
if they did die,so if he has to eat that because he couldent take the time to fix the problem,then that's on him,was his call he shinned it on, it he has to eat it.I'm not trying to argue with you here and this is not personal,but I suggest you check out
some of the research on planting tree's too deep.

[Todd's lawncare]

You come to pa and try and dig a one foot hole and see what you bill would be . It's like trying to hammer a wood nail in to a side walk . And the warranty was for one year get over them and get the one that died just last summer

[Todd's lawncare]

And how can anything grow in rock ??????????????? and it looks as this was like 5 years ago lets fight about something else !!! :rolleyes:
Hey was the guy that did the job privacy pines ???

[easycareacres]

douglas furrs shouldbe hardy to much water not enough ? hee they dime a doz go up a bush block pull some out plant. Try crystals too if dry area.
We used to plant millions of these in rocky area in mountains so found them hardy

[sheshovel]

Not to be rude or anything easycareacres,but in horticultural terms "Hardy"only refers to a plants ability to stand cold temps and nothing else.I use the word "tough" when speaking about the plants ability to stand unfavorable conditions other than cold.