Saturation

[Charles]

Raining here! Wahoo!. I didn't think it could get worse. But this year the grass cutters are tripping all over each other. I have heard it said in the past that there is plenty enough work for all of us. But this is too much. Husband and wife teams in stationwagons out there pulling lawn trailors. Did I miss something here? Is the lawn business really such a goldmine? I know that most of these people will drop out by mid summer. But man my ad has barely attracted the calls I use to get. I change it too. I don't blame anything except that their are way too many lawn companies out there. I must pass 10 a day on my route. I have almost a full schedule but could really use 20 more yards. I know I am being lazy by not soliciting door to door etc. The point of this post is to wonder why their are sooo many lawn care companies out their fighting for so few yards. I don't think I have ever seen it this quite saturated. Every corner their is a lawn care company lol. I think in this town of 200,000, their are alot of people on collecting disability and working a cash lawn care business on the side. I saw in the paper the other day that people on disabilty were the most likely to be audited by the IRS. I saw a man the other day doing a commercial job with what looked like a 5 year old holding a blower. People out their, just because you see alot of lawn care companies out their, dont assume that they are making alot of money and you should quit your real job and join us.

[Charles]

I am not through whining lol. Unlees it is a referral. On the calls I rarely do get. I don't even see the point of going to give an estimate anymore. I have free estimates in my ad. But people are going down the list of adds and calling 10 companies. I know I am not going to be the lowest. I gave a estimate the other day. I told her 40$. Another companies said 30$. 30$ people!!! I was charging that price 10 years ago. MOst of these companies and the parttimers have no idea what a profit margin is. They don't know what inflation is. I am not really hurting for business. Just that I could be doing so much better. If we were on a level playing field. It use to be just an annoyance having the work for free lawn care companies. Now there are so many idiots out there its hard to ignore. I am not exagerating when I say so many. When the heat and humdity and they start breaking down and get out.... But the damage will already be done in the mindset of the customers. That they will think their yard cut is still worth 30$ and alway will be worth that. Because of all the sucker lawn care companies out there. Now I am through whining for today at least:)

[Toroguy]

Charles,<br>I have also noticed the large number of lawn co.s. Five companies will service ten residences on an average city block. With probably five different prices.<p>I think there is a ton of opportunity in this business.<p>In the world of airline pricing, a newbie like Reno air moves into the market. Big guy American Air, drops fares to shut down the competitor, in essence working at a loss. Newbie leaves, prices rise.<p>This is business Charles, the mowing is the easy part. Looking over your shoulder can take your eyes off your vision, and it seems to make you angry. Once mid summer comes around and the station wagon crews drop out you can employ a tactic called price gouging.<p>Hope this helps

[Scraper]

I'm with you Charles! I may be one of those guys you referred to who's considering leaving his job though. I have been at this part-time for the past 5 years (just haven't had the &quot;balls&quot; to leave as yet as my wife and I just bought a house) and have been in the biz since I was 15 working for others. I can tell you that my prices are probably the highes in the neighborhoods, but I go with the motto...&quot;you get what you pay for&quot;. I know the cost of doing business as I am fully insured and use almost a months biz to just pay my insurance not to mention what I pay for the equipment. I bet half those cars you see out there pulling a trailer don't have a business policy for their automobile let alone for their business! I am just outside Philadelphia and see and feel the pressure. I bid a job and had the guy call back saying that everyone else he called was &quot;a little lower&quot; than my price and that he'd keep my number in case it doesn't work out with who he goes with as he likes the work I do for others in his neighborhood. Well the hell with that! I told him he could toss my number as I am not going to deal with price shoppers and running a business like this is not cheap! I agree with Toroguy in that half of them will fizzle out once the heat really starts packing a wallup and those half-acre lawns start looking bigger and bigger with a 21&quot; push mower.<p>Side note: I watched this guy and his 10 year old (couldn't have been any older) with their wagon and trailer) 21&quot; push mowing an acre commercial property by my home on a Saturady in the rain. I just chuckled and shook my head. To think a national chain (Enterprise Rent-a-Car) would stoop to that level. He must be cheap to say the least!

[Scraper]

One more thing...as I was doing my invoices last night I thought about lowering/adjusting down my prices for a couple clients as I am afraid they may find their neighbors are paying less than they. Some of these customers I have had since the inception of my business. Still haven't decided what I am going to do as they haven't complained about the prices as of yet. I guess I should just leave good enough alone. It hits the pocket hard when these guys come out and bid all the lawns in a neighborhood at $22.50 and you are charging anywhere from $30-40. <br>

[geogunn]

chances are that everyday when I pull out of the drive that I am gonna have to look both ways real good because if I don't I might get run over by another cutter zooming down the road in my neighborhood.<p>every week I pull fliers out of my mailbox offering to cut my grass for $20! HECK! I lost my next door neighbor to one of these guys! My lot, and those like it, is a $30 to $35 MINIMUM for me.<p>I dunnow how but I still am malking profit, but, like most, I could use more.<p>I do alot of elderly and people that require a cutter to be dependable. I was 15 minutes late the other day in getting to one of these people and she called to see if I was OK. I thanked her for her concern, and she commented that she kept me because I did everything I said I would do everytime, including arriving on time.<p>Just think of it another way. If there weren't so many $20 cutters out there, alot of grass would go uncut!<p>GEO

[Scraper]

Geogunn: That's as bad as them putting flyers in your customers mailboxes while you are there working! Happened to me the other day! Best part is the customer showed it to me then crumbled it up and threw it away! *L*<p>P.S. If grass went uncut it would give the brushhoggers more work.

[geogunn]

yo scrapper--if there was more bushhogging work out there then I'd be doing it! Southside would have trouble competing with all the farmer/slashers we have here!<p>GEO

[cantoo]

Charles, do you put in your ads that you are insured and pay the proper taxes. When I give estimates I mention that I have taken pesticides courses and chat abit about insurance costs for it and my business and remind them that if my price is too high that there are lots of kids that cut grass and can do a good job as long as they stand there and watch them. My main competion here is kids and a couple of retired guys who cut grass. No insurance and don't pay any taxes I would love to report this one old guy who is constanly bad mouthing me to anyone who will listen. But he's old and gonna die someday and I'll be there to wave goodbye.

[cantoo]

I forgot to add that I cut the cemetery that he will be buried in so I can Fertilize ( piss on) his grave every time I cut it..

[TylerAssociatesLLC]

has anyone actually turned the &quot;old man&quot; or &quot;kid around the corner&quot; in to the tax police.... i got this one guy, about 35-40 that took $5500 worth of accounts away from us last year. i still talk to the customers and they still say i did a great job and tell me to stop by and say hi, yada yada...but why did they switch to this other guy?? i get well, ya know, and something about price or costs in their and they switch the subject. Grrrrrrrrrr<br>He's gone to other customers too and tried to sway them his way, but they didnt go for it, these are the very loyal customers. the others were loyal too, but sometimes the bottom line, $$, can have a big affect, exspecially on big accounts.... <br>what should be done about this? if he pulls any more of this, i think it will be ball busting time. <br> and the 5,500 is more like 7,000 now that i think about it, it was 4 big accounts. this is the part i hate about this business, i had to work my ass off last summer doing odd stuff to make up some of the loss..<br>ok, i'm done complaining now.<p>

[Barkleymut]

turn him in. Why should you and i have to pay taxes and insurance when some of these hacks don't? I wish I could get away with not paying taxes and insurance but then I couldn't sleep at night. Sleep is a good thing.

[Toroguy]

A girlfriend of mine was getting divorced from a scumbag. He was removed from her home after a standoff with police. Anyhow she had all his tax records and noticed many falsifications. She called the IRS, with proof in hand...they didnt care.<p>The amount he should have owed should have been $6000 additional.<p>This great country sometimes is a little odd.

[grasscapeinc]

Yea. Equipment prices way up, service prices way down. My pay for the landscaping sectors are still great. &quot;Lowballers&quot; cna't/won't do that stuff.

[Alan]

I'm trying to cut back on how much mowing I do. Hydroseeding and walls are a lot more profitable and not everyone can get into that with no down payment and no payments until October. I want to keep the accounts that are yearly contracts so I can keep the plowing, and some of my older customers are both loyal and a pleasure to deal with. I'm not going to cut my prices, in some cases I actually should raise them. No point in trying to compete with the newbies, there is a fresh crop every year. Those that survive get smart and realize that the prevailing rates are what they need to charge as well.

[TylerAssociatesLLC]

so how do you turn these people in?

[chadster]

Say guys I'm starting to worry about even trying to make my business work after reading all these comments. I haven't seen many cars with mowers in trunk in OKC but I'm sure there are. I know that there are some undercutters out there and I've seen some of there jobs. I always thought that people hated mowing there lawns, so why not pay good $ to have it done, right. But now I feel different. Actually I'm scared to start the business now. What do you guys think? If I print up 500 business cards, take a add out in the local high school gazett, and maybe a add somewhere else, besides hitting my neiborhood that I will get enough business to say why the heck didn't I do this earlier. Or will I only be the % that just gets by like I do right now in my reg. job. Please help, Chad

[TylerAssociatesLLC]

start out part time, drum up some business. it takes time to build a lawn care business. <br>the guy i am talking about is driving around in a 99 f250 diesel 4x4, two new mowers, a dump trailer, yada yada. doesnt collect sales tax, pay ins, taxes, ect. then he comes in and under-cuts. but thats life.<p>

[Gus]

Too much competitition? Turning people into the gestapo I.R.S.? Man you guys would have been a hoot in Nazi Germany. And you think lo w-balling is under-handed? I hear this every year: &quot;so and so cuts for 5 bucks cheaper than you&quot; WHO CARES?? I don`t debate price and what other cutters are doing means zip.<br>I`ve been in this business for 15 years and have seen many lawn companies come and go and every year by June I`m turning away new customers. If your business isnt what you want it to be it one guys fault:YOU!<p>----------<br>gus....<br>

[Barkleymut]

Gus, I understand that I am responsible for the success of my business but if someone comes in and steals one of my high margin accounts I'm gonna be pissed. And if I see him out there only on Saturdays with a Crapsman rider then I will guess that he is a non tax paying part timer. I WILL contact the property owner and tell them that if they plan on reporting the lawn care expense then they are gonna slam JO BOB who isn't gonna report a damn nickel. Also if JO BOB runs over their prize Japanese Maple and doesn't have $600 to replace it that Nationwide will not be on their side because he isn't paying for insurance and that is why he can charge far less than I can. I have more than enough work to keep me busy but I always do a top notch job just so a part timer knows to stay away. Even if they got the job they can't dedicate the amount of time nor do they have the resources to maintain a property as well as I do. As others have said, offer the aerating, fertilizing, weed control so you can be the customers one stop shop. Oh yeah and maintain a professional image and you should keep the high margin accounts. By the way the e-mailing property managers idea sounds like a winner. I plan on trying that so I can replace some of my lower profit residentials.

[slingshot]

ok guys here is what i think if you are having these problems with the non profesional if say in your paper there are twenty adds in for lawn and landscape work say 5 are pros ,pay tax have insurance and so on get together with the the 5 guys that are profesionals and take anouther add out in the paper in the same section as your adds and say in the add how to choose a pro and how the scabs are taking over running illigal buisness no tax and insurance and so on this will make the shoppers think twice there is no doubt alot of people still look out for the hard working american small buisness man. also it might scare off some of the scrubs .plus get together with the outher landscapers and make up bumper stickers that say that you are a pro and only give them to pros do you know what i mean or you could get the circle with the line through it that says scrubs alot of the better costomers also look to see if you have a biz listing in the phone book .and you have to school the costomer when you give the estimate ask them if the lowballer with no insurance gets hurt on the property is he going to sue you or if he drives his murry through the front door will his ins pay no because heDOES NOT HAVE ANY and you sue him now all you get is a 200.00 amc pacerlet the costomer know you expence.

[MRPLOW]

Don't assume just cause the guy is using a crapsman rider that he isn't paying taxes, you don't know this. Trust me I'm sure there are plenty of socalled professional companies out there that are grossly undereporting there net earnings, probably about 50%.

[cjcland]

slingshot<br> i like the idea of taking out the second add i think i might just add those words into my add, something along the lines of if you dont choose us please choose someone else that is running a legal business. i worked for a guy for a couple of years and i didnt know he wasnt paying all his takes, well anyway he got to be a really big lawn company and then the irs came down on him for past taxes and he lost it all, i learned from that. i payed taxes from day 1, i dont want to finnally get where i want to be and then have them slam me, my philosophy is CYA <p>----------<br>CJC Landscape Management<br>Winter Haven, Florida

[Toroguy]

The craftsman guy and the couple in the escort...Maybe they are pedophiles, or homosexuals, or not paying taxes. One can assume anything. You cant just run around accusing people of wrong doing, with out evidence. This is like the witch trials of old.<p>Im not trying to be critical of this problem, and everyones concern here, nor do I encourage or accept tax evasion. I also think it is insane that a man who plays baseball recieves 20 times the income of a medical doctor. This situation is like drugs, there will always be a market for the little &quot;pusher&quot;.<p>A legal solution...hire an investigator to amass information on your suspected scrubs. What will be needed are bank statements for several years, reciepts of all related expenses, his/her tax returns, documentation of addresses he/she maintains, if paid in cash video of him/her recieving payment. You cant charge a person with tax evasion because of the brand of mower or car they drive. The cost will be high. And we all know that the suspect will be replaced by another MTD pushing &quot;pusher&quot;.<p>My scrub protection gear involves long hours, attention to detail on my equipment and work. And visiting this forum for insights. And not worrying about the scrubs.