First time???

[Mortymower]

I do alot of landscaping, but i have never done more than repleaced heads or broken lines, but this summer i am going to put one in at my house and try to get into the buisness. I really don't know where to start, but my first question is I dont want to pay extra on my sewer bill for the extra water, so how do i get the city to come add a second meter for the system. Also do you do this when puttin in a residential system? Also since I hvae never put in a new system, have any of you seen the thing on the toro website, where you can send your house layout and all of the specs in to them and they send you back a complete design with all parts necessary. Is this a good idea or should i do it myself? Thanks :help:

[Flatbed]

If you need someone to design it for you, you are probaly in over your head. If there is a market for irrigation in your area, and you think you can stay busy, hire someone that has been doing irrigation installs for a while. If you decide to do it, plan on investing alot of time and money for the first three to four years.

[Mortymower]

Thanks for the information on going big, so what about just doing the one for my residence?

[kerdog]

Hey Mortymower---

To get an idea of what you might be getting into, you could look at Rainbird's web-site. They have some info. there, for those wishing to install themselves.

Most people don't want to spend the money up-front, to have a dedicated meter installed, for irrigation. It can be expensive. But, over the long haul, can pay for itself, provided it's billed as water usage only (no sewer).

Find someone locally, see what they would charge to do a 'design only' for you.

And find out if you have to licensed, to do irrigation!

See ya---kerdog

[drmiller100]

Ok, I'll bite. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

first figure out if you have reasonable pressure. Reasonable pressure is 40-50. Higher means spread the sprinklers out. lower means problems.

Next, layout. to lay out a sprinkler system, start with the corners. You can always spray out of a corner, but you cannot spray into one wihtout getting whatever is behind it wet.
Sprinklers go 30-45 feet or so in radius, and you want double coverage as much as reasonably possible.

So, now that you have started in a corner, is the area over 25 feet away? if so, then you can use gear drives. Otherwise, you are stuck with sprays. Each "area" should be sprays or gears. Don't mix the two together in one particular patch of ground.
Gears cover a lot more area, and use less water per minute, so use them as much as possible, and save the sprays for smaller areas.
Once you have the corners, then look at the edges. Put sprinklers along the edges between the corners so they cover each other, barely. Now look at the centers. Is all of the centers of the areas double covered? If not, put more sprinklers out in the centers.
So now you have your sprinkler locations.

Now you need to break them into zones. Figure out gallons per minute availalbe to the system, and gallons per minute, approximately, for your style of sprinkler. Divide the two numbers and you will have how many sprinklers per zone you can run. If on city water, split it up more. If on a well, add more sprinklers, as cycling the pump is BAD, as is overloading it by running too high pressure.

When you have your number of sprinklers per zone, figure out how to put them into zones. If possible, try not to put 90 degree sprays with 270 or 360's, keep shady areas together, sunny, etc. Basically, you are trying to keep like sprinkler waterings in groups. All compromise from here.

Now call digline. Now dig a hole everywhere you have a sprinkler. Dig up the main line, and hook it up. pull pipe. build manifold. place control box. hook up sprinklers using saddles. hook it all up. turn it on. check for leaks. fill holes. turn it back on, and final adjust.

Have at it experts!

[bicmudpuppy]

Ok, I'll bite. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.


Have at it experts!

Not even going to start. Yes, every Fireman, etc. installs sprinklers in his spare time. Keeps a true profesional in buisness and keeps me from having to attempt to compete in the install market. I LIKE repair work. I really enjoy fixing one somebody fouled up because they were sure the right way was to put the "correct" number of heads on each zone. If you don't understand why this is wrong, I promise no one can explain it so you will understand via this format. But, please do keep on keeping on. Repairing disasters is so much more profitable than installing new systems. payup

And FWIW, one of my best balanced installs I have ever done (just ended up near perfect 6 zones all within 2gpm of each other) Has six rotors on zone 4 and only 2 on zone 3. Zone 3 is 8gpm and zone 4 is 9. and yes that beats the 25% requirement they preach in design class :)

[drmiller100]

interesting.
so my approach is to run similar nozzles in all sprinklers, and zone by arc and sunshine requirements.
To be fair, I'll throw half sized nozzles in the 90 arcs to match the 180's, or double sized in the full circles.

How do you do it?

Saying it is too complicated to explain tells me you don't really have a firm grasp on the concepts.

[bicmudpuppy]

interesting.
so my approach is to run similar nozzles in all sprinklers, and zone by arc and sunshine requirements.
To be fair, I'll throw half sized nozzles in the 90 arcs to match the 180's, or double sized in the full circles.

How do you do it?

Saying it is too complicated to explain tells me you don't really have a firm grasp on the concepts.

"If you don't understand why this is wrong, I promise no one can explain it so you will understand via this format. "

No where did I say it was to complicated, I said explaining it to someone who had already made up there mind was a waste of time and space. I still feel that way. Flipping back that you will now consider nozzle size is exactly the kind of mess I see every day. You have to account for gpm per head before you pipe it or it doesn't work properly. And doubling your fulls vs halves can be the biggest mistake you can make. Depends on your options and which heads you are using. Same goes for someone saying that a well system automatically has more available water than the house on a meter from a water district. The factors aren't what type of equipment, but what resources you actually have. I've spent over 20 years getting to this point. A good study can get the basics in a couple of days with a good instructor. Your not going to pass on the necessary basics in a chat forum.

[Dirty Water]

interesting.
so my approach is to run similar nozzles in all sprinklers, and zone by arc and sunshine requirements.
To be fair, I'll throw half sized nozzles in the 90 arcs to match the 180's, or double sized in the full circles.

How do you do it?

Saying it is too complicated to explain tells me you don't really have a firm grasp on the concepts.


Its pretty straight forward, if I have 15 GPM to play with, and I'm using rotors then I attempt to keep every zone using the same GPM. This may mean one zone has 6 rotors spraying 180 degrees with #4 nozzles, and another zone has 3 rotors spraying 360 degrees with #8 nozzles.

Also, I disagree with you about always having to use sprays in small area's. I've found with proper adjustment (You can get a PGP to spray around 8 feet if you fuzz it up with the setscrew and possibly tilt it), you can occasionally water a small area just fine with a few rotors compared to 8-10 sprays.

[drmiller100]

Hello,

If you are on city water, why do you need each zone to use the same amount of water?

I did not say that wells automatically produce more water then city. I said that it is safe to underutilize the water available on a city system. But on a well system, it is safer to overutilize the water and suffer pressure drops then to underutilize the pump's GPM, and force the pump into high pressures or cycling.

You are a better man then me if you can make a PGP go 8 feet and have sharp sides to not spray a house.
How do you do it? Everytime I crank the nozzle it sprays sideways a bunch.

Is there a book out there on this stuff? Maybe this would be a great book to write.
doug

[Wet_Boots]

Mini-paws at ten paces. :gunsfirin

[jerryrwm]

....Also, I disagree with you about always having to use sprays in small area's. I've found with proper adjustment (You can get a PGP to spray around 8 feet if you fuzz it up with the setscrew and possibly tilt it), you can occasionally water a small area just fine with a few rotors compared to 8-10 sprays.

Well, now I'm interested in finding out why you would want to put a head designed for larger areas "fuzzed up and tilted" in a small area? The precipitation rate is totally whacked when you do that. And it's not real cost effective - $2.00 spray head vs $10.00 rotor head. If an area is so smnall that a rotor needs to 'fuzzed up' then I think that area isn't right for a rotor head.

Personally, rotors are my last choice for watering a given area. Many factors such as protected borders, irregular areas, wind drift, precipitation rates, uniformity of application, low pressure applications, etc. A properly designed and installed spray head system wins out over a rotor system everytime in my opinion.

Rotor heads (PGPs, 5004, et al) were designed for large open areas and have their limitations when the areas get covered with trees, scattered planting beds, irregular sidewalks, etc.

Just my opinions

Jerry R

[Mortymower]

Just wanted to add a question in the midst of this discussion, if you say you have 14 gpm going to your house, and that is what you have to work with, if you design your system to where it uses 12-14 gpm in some zones, would that not significantly lower the pressure in your house.

[kerdog]

Just wanted to add a question in the midst of this discussion, if you say you have 14 gpm going to your house, and that is what you have to work with, if you design your system to where it uses 12-14 gpm in some zones, would that not significantly lower the pressure in your house.

Hey Mortymower------

How's it goin'? To answer your question....yes, it would. It's recommended that the irrigation take place early in the A.M. and is done with its watering cycles, before anyone gets up and starts using water in the house. The water pressure is normally at peak at that time, temps. are low, wind is reduced, and the top of the turf will have a chance to dry, etc.

Just curious.....how you determined the available gpm?


See ya----kerdog

[Mortymower]

i know toro makes a gpm meter in which you can test it i think ;)

[drmiller100]

i measure gallons per minute with my eyeballs. i figure out what kind of line comes in off the street, examine pressure, and if things are reasonable, assume 12-15. reasonable is poly, and i can run every outside spigot full blast, run a faucet, and flush the toilet, and the faucet doesn't change very much.
if on a well or pump, i measure gallons per minute with my eyeballs. as a general rule of thumb, it seems like one horsepower can drive 10 gallons per minute given a 20 foot deep well. i pull off the well house, or at the well always so far.

i'd be really curious how the experts measure gpm for bidding purposes.

[Wet_Boots]

I have a Toro Flow & Pressure gauge rig, and I tested it (the flow gauge) against a water meter to ascertain the accuracy. Offhand, I would guess each one would have a different point(s) of correlation. Mine is dead on at 6.5 gpm, slightly under-reading higher flows, and over-reading lower flows. And the next time I leave it in the truck and it freezes, I'll have to repeat the calibration. In low pressure neighborhoods, it never hurts to get reliable numbers to design by.

[bicmudpuppy]

FWIW, every site I've ever been on has a flow meter already there. The trick is to max out the service to get a good reading. The water meter and my stop watch will tell me how much water I'm moving every time. A pressure guage in this buisness will save you but over and over again. Put the guage on a "Y" and get static. Then open the other side and get an operating pressure. If you yave another point of refrence for the guage, you will get better information. Rate the flow at that pressure drop and you have a real good idea of what the service your tapping will handle. If your in doubt and it is just a 3/4 or 5/8 meter, I have an elboe that will fit the down side of the meter. Stub off of it out to the curb (or anywhere away from the meter pit) and open the meter up full bore and watch the dial go. If you can't get it past the meter, it doesn't matter. You now know what the maximum gpm of the meter is. Unless it is visually strong, I rate this pressure as "low" or sub standard and adjust my numbers accordingly.

Yes, I know a lot of you are in areas with indoor meters, but then you are already in the house. Maxing the house by running the sink, tub, outside bib, etc. at least enough to get a significant pressure drop should be easy.

[Wet_Boots]

If the other guys have a Flow & Pressure gauge, and get an absolute reading in half a minute, and you're bopping up and down stairs to approximate the same thing, it may negatively affect your presentation.

[bicmudpuppy]

If the other guys have a Flow & Pressure gauge, and get an absolute reading in half a minute, and you're bopping up and down stairs to approximate the same thing, it may negatively affect your presentation.

Yeah, It probably would..............If I had any competition in this area that even understood basic flow. Haven't had that problem yet. Even the larger companies operate like fly by nites.

[Flatbed]

Hunter makes a design capacity chart in a residential sprinkler system design handbook. I think it is accurate. For example, if you have a 5/8 water meter with a one inch service line, and a static pressure of 70 PSI you should have 13 GPM to work with, and 50 PSI for working pressure. I normally will deduct 8-10 PSI for a RPZ off of static pressure.

[BSME]

Is this what you were talking about wetboots? I just bought one today.... the GPM seems right but the PSI seems low from what I remember...

[kerdog]

What do ya do for the instances, for gpm flows above 13, since that's all the gage measures?

kerdog

[Wet_Boots]

For flows above 13 gpm, you generally aren't so concerned about flow. It's the times you measure 4 gpm at 40 psi, that a rig like this justifies its existence. If the pressure gauge is under-reading pressure, then it's giving you a safety margin. If the readings are higher than actual pressure, then I'd be concerned.

[drmiller100]

boy, that's all fine to underutilize the water on a city system.

but you will burn up a pump if you don't utilize 100 percetn of the capacity of a well.

[bicmudpuppy]

boy, that's all fine to underutilize the water on a city system.

but you will burn up a pump if you don't utilize 100 percetn of the capacity of a well.

And you would make this mistake because??? If your connecting to a well, all your variables are KNOWN. This guage is for domestic connections when you don't KNOW what the service line condition is. And as to flows over 13gpm........it's a 3/4" hose bib connection. Your going to flow 13+gpm through this device HOW??

[bicmudpuppy]

boy, that's all fine to underutilize the water on a city system.

but you will burn up a pump if you don't utilize 100 percetn of the capacity of a well.


And as degenerate as this thread has threatened to become, I'll play the semantics game again. If you design and build for 100% of the WELL's capacity, I promise you will be buying a new pump. If you design for aprox. 80% of the PUMP's capacity at it's optimum pressure range, on the lower gpm zones, you will have pressures near the pumps maximum rating and on that odd zone you stretched, you will have slightly lower pressure, but your pump will function fine. Now we have a whole new headache if the installed pump exceeds the wells maximum capacity, and this does happen. A residential well's lack of capacity is not noticed because the high capacity pump cycles quickly and the residence utilizes the larger pressure tank installed with the larger pump. Create a use for that pump's capacity and you can run a well dry.

[kerdog]

Hey bicmudpuppy----

Help me with my line of thinking......
The gpm gage not measuring above 13 gpm.......
The charts in the back of any sprinkler catalog....
Am I wrong? I thought (assumed) that a 5/8" meter was capable of 15 gpm, a 3/4" of 30 gpm, etc.
I know that doesn't mean that I can get that, due to any number of variables, but that would be the max, for the size of meter.

See ya----kerdog

[bicmudpuppy]

Hey bicmudpuppy----

Help me with my line of thinking......
The gpm gage not measuring above 13 gpm.......
The charts in the back of any sprinkler catalog....
Am I wrong? I thought (assumed) that a 5/8" meter was capable of 15 gpm, a 3/4" of 30 gpm, etc.
I know that doesn't mean that I can get that, due to any number of variables, but that would be the max, for the size of meter.

See ya----kerdog
yes, the METER is capable of that flow rate, but look at the same charts, what is the 3/4 or 1/2 line capable of? This device (imho) just like a lot of our tools, gives information. NOT absolutes. If I have a hose bib w/ a static pressure of 80# and I open that valve to allow 6gpm.........what is my pressure loss from static? I use 6gpm because you are maxing a 1/2 line at 6 gpm in most cases. If I only lose 5# pressure from static and we assume normal pressure loss through meter and how ever far I am from that meter, we now have a bench mark for the capabilities of our service. Open that guage more and at what point does the pressure make a significant drop? If you have 3/4 lines in the house to the bib, then maybe that drop doesn't occur until 10-12gpm........but it should occur before 13gpm unless your tapped directly into a 1" line and have 1" service from that meter. This tool is handy for quick annalysis of a residential site. If you've got more than a 3/4 meter and 1" service to the house, you need to spend the extra time and effort to get the information to make your decision. Unless this large meter and oversized service line is to a mansion w/ a postage stamp yard, but then it's all moot anyway....right?

[Wet_Boots]

...and city water from a standard 5/8 meter, if you look at the 13 gpm top flow reading. Well water usage could merit a thread of its own.

There is a method to extrapolate more information from a single flow and pressure reading, given that you also know the static pressure. I'm not sure whether the method is given in any of the catalogs anymore.

If you wanted to eliminate the pressure loss through the faucet and its 1/2 inch supply line from your measurements, you could place a separate pressure gauge on another faucet, and see what pressure shows there during your flow test.

I'll repeat what I stated earlier. It's mostly in the lower flow conditions where this thing pulls its weight. Also, a service line problem can be flagged by this simple flow and pressure test.

[bicmudpuppy]

...and city water from a standard 5/8 meter, if you look at the 13 gpm top flow reading. Well water usage could merit a thread of its own.

There is a method to extrapolate more information from a single flow and pressure reading, given that you also know the static pressure. I'm not sure whether the method is given in any of the catalogs anymore.

If you wanted to eliminate the pressure loss through the faucet and its 1/2 inch supply line from your measurements, you could place a separate pressure gauge on another faucet, and see what pressure shows there during your flow test.

I'll repeat what I stated earlier. It's mostly in the lower flow conditions where this thing pulls its weight. Also, a service line problem can be flagged by this simple flow and pressure test.


Hat's off to ya again.........sometimes you say it so much simpler than I do :)

[Rappa]

How can anyone claim to be a professional installer and not own a pressure guage? It baffles my mind...