pvc or copper/brass shutoff valve

[surge]

I am curious as to which one you guys prefer to use in an installation. I was thinking of using the copper/brass threadded gate valve with unions before and after the valve. I figure that copper/brass will hold up better and the unions before and after the valve will allow me to remove the valve and replace it if it fails without cutting any pipe. What do you guys think?

[Dirty Water]

I use brass ball valves by FORD. (Not the motor co heh).

I'll get a pic later, I'm off to work.

[bicmudpuppy]

I am curious as to which one you guys prefer to use in an installation. I was thinking of using the copper/brass threadded gate valve with unions before and after the valve. I figure that copper/brass will hold up better and the unions before and after the valve will allow me to remove the valve and replace it if it fails without cutting any pipe. What do you guys think?
I was always told there were only 2 kinds of gate valves...........
those that leak and those that are going to leak.

I don't recomend a gate valve as a positive shutoff.

I like globe angle valves (brass) for taps, but I am in a freezing climate. Having the shutoff close enough to service, but still over a column of water well below the frost line prevents freezing of live water and allows for proper winterization of the system w/ minimum effort. The old drain and waste valves w/ a Key shutoff that are burried below frost level are probably best, but I really, really hate working on them when they eventually fail. Champion makes a globe angle with a built in union on the outlet. This makes changing it easy enough.

[Wet_Boots]

old drain and waste valves w/ a Key shutoff that are burried below frost level are probably best, but I really, really hate working on them when they eventually fail Some of the curb stops I have to use (reluctantly) are draining types. Are those what you've seen fail? In what way?

In warm Sunny California, a leaking gate valve won't mean so much. When do they ever shut off the system, except for maintenance? A good ball valve would make more sense, and might be easier to get than a good gate valve.

I have trouble picturing an outdoor subterranean sprinkler system supply valve in a freezing climate, unless the water meter is not in the building's basement.

[bicmudpuppy]

Some of the curb stops I have to use (reluctantly) are draining types. Are those what you've seen fail? In what way?

In warm Sunny California, a leaking gate valve won't mean so much. When do they ever shut off the system, except for maintenance? A good ball valve would make more sense, and might be easier to get than a good gate valve.

I have trouble picturing an outdoor subterranean sprinkler system supply valve in a freezing climate, unless the water meter is not in the building's basement.
I have had to replace/repair draining curb stops in a very few instances. Digging them up is a fav pasttime :help: Couldn't tell you what brand etc. but I *think* 3/4 turn and then they drain right after they seat "off". One of the ones I had to replace was because some idiot strong arm'd the thing and broke it. grrrrrrrrr

They don't put meters inside in very many places around here. Cross the border into MO and the majority go back inside. Depending on the PI's prefrences, most of my taps are either by the meter pit or right before the service enters the house.

[drmiller100]

our local inspector has determined that self draining curb stops are unsafe. apparently there is a chance that the water main might shutoff, and someone would at that exact time open the water shutoff, and water could backfeed into the water system past the one way water meters, therebye killing an entire city.
whatever.
so, they make us put a curb stop in. then another curb stop that drains. then run it up to surface to a double check valve, from which after you can drain it.

[Dirty Water]

Wow, you guys have it incredibly rough.

Up here, the freeze depth is 6 inches. So no meters are in basements.

All we have to do is connect the DC anywhere after the meter, and depending on which city we are in, call for an inspection, or just backfill it.

Backflow seems to be such a big deal to everyone, but it really makes no sense to me.

Assuming any sort of toxin managed to soak into the sprinkler head it would be stopped by a valve, if that valve was open then the mainline would have to be off, if the mainline was off, then theres no way for water to get into the city main.

[kerdog]

Wow, you guys have it incredibly rough.


Backflow seems to be such a big deal to everyone, but it really makes no sense to me.

Assuming any sort of toxin managed to soak into the sprinkler head it would be stopped by a valve, if that valve was open then the mainline would have to be off, if the mainline was off, then theres no way for water to get into the city main.

What if.........any sprinkler system is running.......the 'city main' loses pressure for say....twenty minutes or so, then comes back up to pressure?
All the water that was in the sprinkler system gets sucked back into the 'city main'. Let's say the homeowner just dumped a bunch of fertilizer on the lawn.

kerdog

[Dirty Water]

What if.........any sprinkler system is running.......the 'city main' loses pressure for say....twenty minutes or so, then comes back up to pressure?
All the water that was in the sprinkler system gets sucked back into the 'city main'. Let's say the homeowner just dumped a bunch of fertilizer on the lawn.

kerdog

Thats a good point, though it probably rarely (if ever) happens. It would take a hell of a lot of water use to deplete the city main enough for it to suck the water in the sprinkler system back into it.

This reminds me of a client of ours that owns a condo complex fed off of a pond. He had dumped some sort of algea killing chemical into the pond, and then a few weeks later, called and complained that his brass was turning brown.

hehe.

[Wet_Boots]

A person might go their entire life, and never once have to stop their car by means of the emergency brakes. Think that's reason enough to leave those brakes out of an automobile's design, or to not care if they're in working order?

You do know that a lawn sprinkler zone valve (a diaphragm valve) has no ability whatsoever to prevent water from running through it in reverse. Don't you? No ability whatsoever.

You do know that if a fire truck hooks up to a hydrant, that the pumps on the truck are so powerful that they can create negative pressures, and suck the water from any pipe in the vicinity. You know that, don't you?

You do know that water mains can break. Don't you?

Every season, I encounter one or more instances of broken pipes that were caused by injector points, from either root fertilizing, or termite treatments. Broken pipes fed by someone's drinking water, which will still be safe to drink, because a backflow preventer rated for toxic backflow is part of the sprinkler system.

[Dirty Water]

Wet Boots: All good points. It helps me understand why doublechecks are so important now :)

[drmiller100]

i don't doubt the need for backflow prevention.

i just question some of the restrictions on what i have to do to blow it out.

[Wet_Boots]

Doublechecks aren't rated for toxic backflow. Without an atmospheric opening, they are less secure than the PVB's and RPZ's - I mention this, because at some point in the future, codes will change, and the double check will be eliminated from sprinkler system plumbing.

I've seen this change take place locally, and I have yet to see a homeowner that would be happy to learn that they needed a mandatory upgrade in the sprinkler system plumbing. (old work was not 'grandfathered')

[jerryrwm]

Backflow seems to be such a big deal to everyone, but it really makes no sense to me.

Assuming any sort of toxin managed to soak into the sprinkler head it would be stopped by a valve, if that valve was open then the mainline would have to be off, if the mainline was off, then theres no way for water to get into the city main.

The chances are one in many that something might happen that would cause a life threatening situation due to lack of backflow prevention. But are you willing to take the chance?

Ask the folks that contacted Legionaire's Disease from a cooling tower that had no proper backflow installed. Or the folks in the kidney dyalisis unit that was contaminated by an unprotected line. Or the high rise apartment that became contaminated due to a hose left in a deep sink. I know these aren't irrigation related, but the USAA insurance campus in San Antonio experienced a backflow condition that caused one helluva ruckus. They had an irrigation system that had been modified to use water from their private lake and with the turn of a couple valves they could use city water. Seems one of the nimrods had opened the potable water supply valve and when the pumps kicked on with 100+ psi guess where most of the water went. Right into the city water supply. Employees were complaining about the foul odor at the drinking fountains and a number of people got sick. When someone realized that the private lake level had dropped considerably lower than usual they began investigating. They found the valve set-up, contacted the city of San Antonio Water Dept, and they went off like bottle rockets! They fined USAA for the improper set-up, made them dismantle the valve switch, made them put in a containment device so that the entire USAA campus is contained behind a huge backflow device. I want to say it is an 8" RPZ. A side note, they traced the contaminated water in the city mains and found it had moved more than 2 miles in the water distribution system.

So, next time you put in an irrigation system without a proper backflow device, think of the liability you have just exposed yourself and your company to. All it takes is someone using some type of herbicide/pesticide/fungicide etc. when a negative pressure situation arises and you have a contamination situation. And that goes for well systems also. The water strata could be contaminated from an untimely mistake.

The homeowner should never be given the option of having a backflow device or not. They will opt for the cheaper route 9 times out of 10. Don't give them a choice. Just explain that this is the way they are installed and that's it. Explain the dangers of living with out one.

In order for you to see what the big deal is and for backflow prevention to make sense, might I suggest that you check out the ABPA (American Backflow Prevention Assn) website. And if you are so inclined, become backflow certified. That 40 hour class will open your eyes.

So this is the mantra for irrigators. "Backflow Preventors on every system."

Jerry R
Tx Certified Backflow Tester.
Nat'l Certified Backflow Tester.

[bicmudpuppy]

I will preach until someone hits me upside the head with solid proof that requiring more than a DC on irrigation is overkill UNLESS some chemical injection is installed or a booster pump is place. That being said, I BELIEVE in backflow prevention. The anti's come out of the woodwork everytime the subject of backflow comes up. They want to ban all chemicals and forcing aggressive backflow is a spotlight they can't pass up. What are the real odds of chemicals being sucked from a lateral line all the way back into the sprinkler main and then into the domestic main?? Then what are the odds again that a properly maintained DC will fail when an RP wouldn't? The greatest risk from sprinkler systems comes from bacteria. Come on guys we work service. How many of you out there after cutting open an irrigation main, want to drink from that pipe? BUT, a fire down the street and the pumpers hook on and little Timmmy goes down to watch the fireman.......he comes home hot and thirsty and WHAM, he gets a slug from the neighbors (or his own) sprinkler system. How many days does Timmy get in the county hospital because we didn't do our job? Anyone who doesn't think an irrigation system is the nasties thing to drink out of possible needs to ride with a winter climate tech during turn ons.
I personally believe the trend is going to move away from RP's. Kansas's Water One district, which is Johnson County, i.e. the upper crust of KCK is currently not requiring or taking backflow test reports because of a class action suite against them because of their enforcement policies on backflow testing. I personally test every device I turn on. Even if I can't bill for it, I make sure I can say I3WIL (It Was Working When I Left).

[Wet_Boots]

The reason the Double Check will eventually disappear is that it isn't rated for toxic backflow. The whole point of this exercise is to prevent the intrusion of toxic substances into the drinking water supply. I understand the logic supporting the use of the double check. You pay money for something that does a job. Period. But time passes, and no one is checking up on these devices. The toxic-rated devices have a functionality that does not depend on human scrutiny. And that is why they'll take over.