Which controller do you recommend?

[F6Hawk]

Guess what, I have another question... If you are getting tired of me, just say so, and I will go away (as soon as I get my answer and install a great sprinkler system!).

So, as to the issue of controllers, what do you advise to purchase? And which rain sensor? Wireless, or wired?

Based on my lack of experience, and just from reading the manufacturer's websites, I like the idea of the RB ESP Modular. The ability to stack & grow, plus the ESP features combine to make it a great-sounding controller, at least on paper.

Thanks for the time, and I really appreciate all the honest answers I have been getting on here! If you're ever in Southern Alabama...

[Dirty Water]

ESP modular

Hunter wireless rainsensor.

Your going to get a real varied opinion here, but you don't need to read past this post :angel:

[Wet_Boots]

You'll buy us lunch at Wintzell's Oyster House?

[bicmudpuppy]

ESP modular

Hunter wireless rainsensor.

Your going to get a real varied opinion here, but you don't need to read past this post :angel:
OMG :)

ESP?? those letters still make me cry, even though I "know" bird finally fixed all the problems they created rushing them into production. Same comment about the Pro-C from Hunter, except I'm not positive they fixed all the bugs. The ICC is as fixed as it's going to get and also a good controller, BUT, your not looking for a large controller, just an excellent one that will handle the job. Did we decide how many zones?

Irritrol Kwik Dial, best bang for your buck. Rain off, True interval watering, percentage adjustment, 3 programs, multiple start times (can't remember if it's 6 or 8, hardly ever use more than 3, but 4 comes in handy sometimes), Programs stack (for some reason the RB doesn't like identical starts don't know why)

Some of these features are not avail on the ESP. The Hunter will cost you 50%+ compared to the Kwik Dial, but will match features. Hunter and Irritrol both also offer a repair remote option that will run you around $150 list and is a great tool or toy depending on your situation.

[Dirty Water]

I knew you'd poke in here and preach irritirol :)

This forum is worse than the Ford Vs Chevy guys :)

I love the ESP series, mainly because we've installed hundreds (perhaps thousands by now?) and have yet to have more than 2-3 fail.

Secondly, I can explain how to use the ESP to even the most elderly customer (and we get a lot), and they understand and grasp it, in about 10 minutes.

To be honest though, the old mechanical Rainbird Timers were the easiest to teach people :)

[F6Hawk]

The ESP modular stacks, according to the manufacturer's website. Not sure about the delay time between zones, though.

Probably going to be 6-8 zones. I already have 3 zones laid out in the front, but am still working on the back design layout. Front is 5200' sq, back is 6600'sq, so it should be a close estimate.

[F6Hawk]

Dunno where that is, but it sure sounds fun! I think lunch is probably in order, based on all your input...

[bicmudpuppy]

The ESP modular stacks, according to the manufacturer's website. Not sure about the delay between zones, though.

Probably going to be 6-8 zones. I already have 3 zones laid out in the front, but am still working on the back design layout. Front is 5200' sq, back is 6600'sq, so it should be a close estimate.
going to hope Jon chimes in here. I had an e-class not stack due to duplicate start times. Every other brand solid state I've seen stacks duplicates. I haven't programed duplicate start times on an ESP and visually seen it work, so now I'm questioning it. I didn't get a good answer from the supply house, RB rep was supposed to get back to us on it and I'm still not any smarter than I was when I changed start 2 to 30 min later.

[bicmudpuppy]

I knew you'd poke in here and preach irritirol :)

This forum is worse than the Ford Vs Chevy guys :)

I love the ESP series, mainly because we've installed hundreds (perhaps thousands by now?) and have yet to have more than 2-3 fail.

Secondly, I can explain how to use the ESP to even the most elderly customer (and we get a lot), and they understand and grasp it, in about 10 minutes.

To be honest though, the old mechanical Rainbird Timers were the easiest to teach people :)
That's what makes it fun! Seriously, my only complaint w/ the current ESP is no rain delay and price. The Kwik Dial wins in both categories. The ESP also is limited to an interval max of once every 7 days. Granted this is nit picking, but every once in a great while, I set a seperate program with an interval of 1 in 31 to water a "special" cycle and then return before a month passes to erase it. A system that has been "off" for instance w/ an ICC can be set for Prog C to run once in 31 days with two days remaining and then program a cycle and soak interval to maximum and program a mega run time on that program. It runs for a couple of days straight and the goes back to regular programing til I can get back and erase the catch up program.
One other Kwik Dial feature I like is the water budget is for each program, not global. I know, this works both ways.

[Wet_Boots]

They're in Mobile. Based on what looks like one-third acre property, you are on the middle ground of residential installs. Assuming level ground, give or take a few feet, The one inch pipe and valves will be fine, and you could use Irritrol 2713APR anti-syphon valves, and get toxic-rated backflow protection while you're at it. A second one inch water meter on a 3/4" service line is a waste, if you can get a 3/4 meter for less. I would lean toward the Hunter Pro-C expandable controller.

[F6Hawk]

They're in Mobile. Based on what looks like one-third acre property, you are on the middle ground of residential installs. Assuming level ground, give or take a few feet, The one inch pipe and valves will be fine, and you could use Irritrol 2713APR anti-syphon valves, and get toxic-rated backflow protection while you're at it. A second one inch water meter on a 3/4" service line is a waste, if you can get a 3/4 meter for less. I would lean toward the Hunter Pro-C expandable controller.I can't recall exactly, I think the 1" was $25 more than the 3/4". And before someone tells me that a second meter is a waste of money, the sewage rates here almost double the cost per gallon of water. I estimate the new meter will pay for itself in 1-2 years alone.

[Wet_Boots]

The sewage charges merit the second meter. Based on flow losses, a meter larger than the service line gains you little, if anything.

[F6Hawk]

The sewage charges merit the second meter. Based on flow losses, a meter larger than the service line gains you little, if anything.Well, perhaps I can call tomorrow and have them change the order to a 3/4" meter. But I should stay with the 1" ML & lats, right?

[jerryrwm]

Gotta go with the Kwik Dial too for residential ease of use, flexibility, and reliability. Have put in "tens" of these and have yet to have the first one go south on me yet.

For commercial installations however, I still choose the Total Control. Only real drawback is when using a 24 station model, it gets pretty damn crowded in there trying to bring in 25 - 14 gauge wires.

And hook a wired mini-clik to it and there ya go. I'm not a big fan of the wireless sensors.

[Wet_Boots]

With your size property, you don't need a mainline. One manifold of valves near the house can supply your needs. Even if you used Sch 40 pipe, you won't lose too much pressure.

[jerryrwm]

Well, perhaps I can call tomorrow and have them change the order to a 3/4" meter. But I should stay with the 1" ML & lats, right?

Yeah, nothing really gained by going with the bigger meter, unless you can talk them into a larger service.

Keep the ML and laterals at 1" SDR-21 and you'll be fine.

[F6Hawk]

WB, when I say mainline, I refer to the service from the meter to the manifold. Is this not right? How can you have a system w/valves without a mainline?

Jerrywm, the price to get an actual 1" tap jumps up to $600 (up from $250 for just the second meter). It would be several years before I got that money back, so decided not to go for that option. :(

[Wet_Boots]

I favor Sch 40 for constant-pressure plumbing - it's pressure rating is on a par with the thinnest of copper tubing. With a system that might be flowing around ten gpm, you wouldn't lose out pressure-wise with smaller pipe. I could see plumbing it with 3/4 copper on the supply side with 3/4 antisyphon valves. With short enough runs, one might even use 3/4 pipe throughout, but the price difference compared to one inch wouldn't justify agonizing over it.

[Wet_Boots]

For myself, I use the word 'mainline' to describe the outdoor pipe that is fed by an electric 'master valve' which in turn feeds valves out in the field.

[DanaMac]

Once again, I agree on going with the Rainbird ESP modular. Hunter Pro-C would be my second choice. Never have seen the Irritrol one you guys are referring to. ESPs are the predominant controller in our market. The only ones I've seen fail are the older ones where the the buttons wouldn't make contact with the board and change anything.

And yes this is starting to get into a Ford vs. Chevy contest lately. Both make great vehicles. Just like RB and Hunter both make great products. And both will have problems from time to time. We all have a preference though.

[F6Hawk]

Sure, and all of youz have your opinions, and support for them. I expect that, and the world would be a boring place if we all used Rainbird exclusively, wouldn't it?

But for all the different opinions on here, that sometimes don't make the decisions any easier for us little guys, at least they are given in a professional manner. I haven't been here long, but most of the posts I read are honest opinions, and very little name-calling. That is appreciated by all who visit & learn here.

I know no matter what products I install, someone will be able to tell me why I could have done it better; but the good thing is that no matter what is in the ground or on my wall, the durn thing should work well, based on all I have learned here. You guys are a superb bunch, I only wish you were more local, and could come over & give me your advice in person. I would even go so far as to lend you a shovel if you wanted to help me dig! :D

F6

[bicmudpuppy]

Sure, and all of youz have your opinions, and support for them. I expect that, and the world would be a boring place if we all used Rainbird exclusively, wouldn't it?

But for all the different opinions on here, that sometimes don't make the decisions any easier for us little guys, at least they are given in a professional manner. I haven't been here long, but most of the posts I read are honest opinions, and very little name-calling. That is appreciated by all who visit & learn here.

I know no matter what products I install, someone will be able to tell me why I could have done it better; but the good thing is that no matter what is in the ground or on my wall, the durn thing should work well, based on all I have learned here. You guys are a superb bunch, I only wish you were more local, and could come over & give me your advice in person. I would even go so far as to lend you a shovel if you wanted to help me dig! :D

F6
I for one would be glad to help.......as long as it's billable payup

And I'm a preacher for the irritrol product, but I will also tell you if you avoid the problem products talked about here (and almost every brand out there has a few), you won't go wrong if you are comfortable with what you decide, and spend the extra here and there to install it all correctly.

One other thing I might mention, if price doesn't make that much difference. Some of the more upgrade irritrol controllers have the best warranty in the industry. This is just my opinion in part, but if installed correctly, they are the only company currently that will replace a controller hit by power surge like lightning. Unfortunately, this waranty doesn't apply to the Kwik Dial, I assume partly due to the price it is offered at. The total control mentioned earlier is and it is the most versatile commercial controller I have ever worked with. I avoid it in a lot of situations because it is very easy to miss program. I think there are 16 starts per program with a total control? and 8 or more programs too. The average maint. guy or homeowner plays with it, and you can spend 30 min just making sure you erased everything.
Buckner made a controller that was even worse but similar years ago.

[F6Hawk]

Ok, now that we have narrowed the controller situation down to no more than 6 choices, what about wire? Is it advisable to run extra? By extra, I mean 2-3 more strands than zones, for future repairs.

If I go with the manifold plan (most likely), this is a non-issue, but was wondering how to handle it if I go with remote, sinlge-valve boxes scattered around the yard. Considering that pipe is less than 50% of the price of wire, and that I like the manifold idea, that is probably the design I will use.

And on the topic of running wire... if I have 3 zones in front, and 4 in back, what wire to buy & use? 18/6 (4+2 & 3+3, using the spare wire concept), one wire to front & one wire to back?

I can't see where running one wire, such as 18/10, would be feasible, due to doubling back. But maybe I am missing something here.

[kerdog]

And on the topic of running wire... if I have 3 zones in front, and 4 in back, what wire to buy & use? 18/6 (4+2 & 3+3, using the spare wire concept), one wire to front & one wire to back?

I can't see where running one wire, such as 18/10, would be feasible, due to doubling back. But maybe I am missing something here.

Hey F6Hawk---

IF...you go with the valves grouped together (manifold), I would suggest the 18/10. Run one time, from controller to the first manifold, and continue on to the second manifold location. I don't see where you have to 'double back'. Unless I'M missing something. That will give you the 'spare' wires, at each manifold. As far as the *common*, use 'jumper' wire to connect each valve together, in your manifold. Leave enough wire (extra length) at each manifold, to make it easy to work/play with. Try to 'hide' the multi-strand under the pipe, in the ditch, so IF anything has to be excavated for any reason, it (the wire) will have some protection from a shovel!

kerdog

P.S. Here's a standard (?) for wiring order...don't know how many people adhere to it....ROY G BIV red/orange/yellow/green/blue/brown/black
Guess you're on your own after seven!

[Wet_Boots]

That color code comes from the rainbow, and is preceded by black and brown, and is followed by grey and white. By number, black refers to zero, and brown is one, up to grey for eight and white for nine. In practice, white becomes the common, black is the master valve (if used) and the others correspond to the zone numbers. Since multi-conductor cable is actually made with another color code in mind, you don't get a proper rainbow to choose from with less than eight-conductor cable.

(here's where some argument can begin) - for a very short run of wire, not buried in the field, you can actually use ordinary thermostat cable, even if it's 20 gauge copper. Without the heavy polyethylene outer jacket, thermostat cable is much easier to fasten down to a wall. [now let the flames begin :p ]

All of this is pointless navel-gaving. The controller you select will be a reliable entry-level model, from a local distributor that backs what they sell. I think they all have the 'electronic circuit breaker' design that protects the controller from shorts, without needing glass fuses.

All the valves will be manifolded in one location, because it simplifies construction and centralizes the wiring. If you use anti-syphon valves, you don't even need to dig a valve box or worry about additional backflow prevention. You don't have a one-inch-wide shovel, so any trench you dig has room for several pipes laid side-to-side.

Keep it simple.

[DanaMac]

We do the wiring alphabetically. Rarely any mastervalves here so I won't mention. With 12 strand here is what we do.
1 - Bla(ck)
2 - Blu(e)
3 - Brown
4 - Gray (or if you decide to spell it grEy, put after the green)
5 - Green
6 - Orange
7 - Pink
8 - Purple
9 - Red
10 - Tan
11 - Yellow

And we make white common

[F6Hawk]

KD,

When I said doubling back, I was referring to having remote valves scattered in the yard. For example, one layout I have has one valve beside the controller (on the side of the house), but the other two about 100' away near the meter (in the front yard). But the valves for the back yard are closer to the side of the house, so I envisioned one cable going out to the front, and another going to the back, otherwise I would have to run 18/10 wire out to the two front valves, then back in the same trench to the valve boxes in the back. Alternatively, 18/5 with one run going each way, front and back.

That code is very similar to the one for resistors, BBROYGBVGW, easily remembered as Bad Boys Rape Our Young Girls But Violet Gives Willingly. Black, Brown, Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Violet, Gold, White, if memory serves me correctly, I haven't used it in over 10 years now.

Thanks!

[Wet_Boots]

:p PC-Alert!! - you don't think they actually teach that pnemonic any more, do you?

I've been seeking the 'other' color code, and can't recall its name, but the following chart matches what I buy, with the possible exception of colors one and three being exchanged.
http://www.tappanwire.com/color1.shtml (this is why you need a single manifold location, so you use a single multiconductor cable, with the necessary colors)

I used to do the 'alphabetical order' numbering, in some ancient time. I like the color scheme for the Hunter SRC remote connector cable, connecting to the three left terminals on the strip. Red - White - Blue

[F6Hawk]

Man, I really miss the edit function on these forums! What I typed was a tad different from what my computer actually transmitted... Brave Boys Respect Our Young Girls, Brown Violets Get Watered. :angel:

I like your patriotic color scheme, I think I will apply it to my controller, and the heck with color standards! :)

[Dirty Water]

Not sure why we use this color code, but its been company standard longer than I've been with them.

Red
Blue
Green
Yellow
Orange
Purple
Brown
Pink
Grey
Black

[kerdog]

Oh well......so much for a 'standard'..........

kerdog

[jerryrwm]

I'm wondering why anyone would need to use 13 conductor multi-strand if there aren't over 10 valves in one location. it never ceases to amaze me when I open the last valve box on a run 250' from the controller and find 13 conductor wire! Even if you want an extra wire at the valve, why would you need the other ten wires? Figure it out - 250' x 10 wires is a 2500' spool of wire that you have just thrown away. They have even ran 13 conductor to two, three, and four valve manifolds.

Of course I'm from the 'old school' and still believe that anything smaller than 16 ga is too small and I still run single conductor UF 16 or 14 ga wire. And that means my wiring sequence coding is: Red, Red, Red, Red, etc, and White. Simple enough to hook up in proper maintenance sequence. Use the test post and find out what comes on and move the wire to the proper station. And this wiring sequence works on controllers larger than 12 stations too! And if one wants to make life easier, run the spare wire in black or some other color. Works on golf courses - one color for fairway heads, one color for tees, one color for greens, one color for roughs. That's about the extent of their color coding. Some architects like to get colorful and use the complete color spectrum, but how necessary is it?

Back to multistrand - why not use a 6 strand or 7 strand cables? You can still wire a 5 valve manifold with an extra wire and not waste near as much.

Which brings up another question - how big of a box do you use to make a 5 or 6 valve manifold?

Jerry R

[bicmudpuppy]

Which brings up another question - how big of a box do you use to make a 5 or 6 valve manifold?

Jerry R
OMG, I've picked up about 6 systems here that were put in by a fly by night out of who knows where. Arkansas maybe? The tap and DC are in the bottom of a STANDARD meter box with 2 or 3 extensions and the zone valves are ON TOP. And I've had to re-build a couple of these 850's already. What a nightmare.

[Dirty Water]

I'm wondering why anyone would need to use 13 conductor multi-strand if there aren't over 10 valves in one location. it never ceases to amaze me when I open the last valve box on a run 250' from the controller and find 13 conductor wire! Even if you want an extra wire at the valve, why would you need the other ten wires? Figure it out - 250' x 10 wires is a 2500' spool of wire that you have just thrown away. They have even ran 13 conductor to two, three, and four valve manifolds.


If I have a 12 zone system, I'll run 13 wire to the first valve box (of 3 valves) and then run a 10 wire to the next, then a 7 and then a 5.

Each wire is spliced into the next one offsetted, so that red is always the first valve on each wire, yet the color standard is correct in the timer.

This lets me keep from wasting wire.

And yes, We have a physical shop with a huge inventory of everything in it, so people who carry only stuff in their truck probably will balk at this method.

[jerryrwm]

If I have a 12 zone system, I'll run 13 wire to the first valve box (of 3 valves) and then run a 10 wire to the next, then a 7 and then a 5.

Each wire is spliced into the next one offsetted, so that red is always the first valve on each wire, yet the color standard is correct in the timer.

This lets me keep from wasting wire.

And yes, We have a physical shop with a huge inventory of everything in it, so people who carry only stuff in their truck probably will balk at this method.

Good idea Jon. Many don't want to take the time to splice at the valve boxes. Takes all or 20 sec. or so to splice a wire. Always amazed me the amount of money thrown away in wire.

[SprinklerGuy]

While on the subject of wire..

Why in the hell do some people insist upon using any other color that white for common? Boy that drives me crazy.

[jerryrwm]

While on the subject of wire..

Why in the hell do some people insist upon using any other color that white for common? Boy that drives me crazy.

Well just for pure meaness and no other reason, I have wired a system with all white zone wires and red for the common. My foreman asked if it would work that way. (That's when I remembered he was from the hills of Missouri and I don't think the family tree had too many forks).

[BSME]

If I have a 12 zone system, I'll run 13 wire to the first valve box (of 3 valves) and then run a 10 wire to the next, then a 7 and then a 5.

Each wire is spliced into the next one offsetted, so that red is always the first valve on each wire, yet the color standard is correct in the timer.

This lets me keep from wasting wire.

And yes, We have a physical shop with a huge inventory of everything in it, so people who carry only stuff in their truck probably will balk at this method.


I use this method as well... I like the fact that if anyone else comes out to service it they'll find the zone 1 color in two different manifolds... and have to figure out the color scheme I use....

and if I have a five zone manifold (is hardly ever bigger than that) I put an econo box over the last valve.... anyone have a better method?

[bicmudpuppy]

Good idea Jon. Many don't want to take the time to splice at the valve boxes. Takes all or 20 sec. or so to splice a wire. Always amazed me the amount of money thrown away in wire.
hmmmm, I'm trying to do the math here a dry splice costs?? and you need how many extra's to continue say a 5 conductor instead of a 9.........4 extra splices vs. the difference between 9 conductor and 5 for how many feet? and you think splicing is less expensive and it took you time too?

Just nit picking again. Yes, if I'm at a 90 or whatever in the pull where splicing the wire is prudent, I will reduce the multi-strand, and I don't manifold, but if your next manifold is at the back of the house and the first one is in the front.....100' max right? 10-15 pennies a foot difference? so 10-15 bucks saved to so you could spend 6 on splices and even if those splices take ten minutes total, thats another 5-7 bucks in labor cost (2-3 in wages and 2-3 in labor expenses) I missed the savings I guess. Need to go back and take that econ course :)

[Wet_Boots]

I favor reducing the conductor count as I go from box to box. When I finish up that thousand foot reel of 18/4, that's a savings from the 18/12 I start with. And while I'm having to make the extra slices, I can flag the wires for zone numbers, and be certain that I have enough slack in the wire run.

[Dirty Water]

hmmmm, I'm trying to do the math here a dry splice costs?? and you need how many extra's to continue say a 5 conductor instead of a 9.........4 extra splices vs. the difference between 9 conductor and 5 for how many feet? and you think splicing is less expensive and it took you time too?

Just nit picking again. Yes, if I'm at a 90 or whatever in the pull where splicing the wire is prudent, I will reduce the multi-strand, and I don't manifold, but if your next manifold is at the back of the house and the first one is in the front.....100' max right? 10-15 pennies a foot difference? so 10-15 bucks saved to so you could spend 6 on splices and even if those splices take ten minutes total, thats another 5-7 bucks in labor cost (2-3 in wages and 2-3 in labor expenses) I missed the savings I guess. Need to go back and take that econ course :)

10 minutes to splice a wire? Are you soddering them or something?

I wire an entire job in 10 minutes.

[bicmudpuppy]

10 minutes to splice a wire? Are you soddering them or something?

I wire an entire job in 10 minutes.
Strip back the 18/5 and the 18/9, make 4 extra splices you didn't have to make, so your striping 8 18ga wires and them splicing them together. It doesn't seem like a lot of time, but I bet on average you spend more than 10 min.
And yes I realize if your just pulling a loop, you still have to strip the insulation, but the time to cut strip, and then cut and strip each 18ga is extra time. Not saying it is right or wrong, but if you think you are saving money, I think you aren't looking at all of it. Is it more correct not to "waste" the wire? probably, but it isn't a savings unless your doing long runs. Even w/o manifolding, my average system has less than 250' of main and wire, and I usually end up going two directions from the controller. I like 18/7 because that is what is in stock and price pointed best from where I buy. Would I save some money if I bought 18/4 for some apps? a little, but probably not enough to justify splices and inventory. I don't have pricing in front of me and wire has been a bit up and down lately but the difference between 18/4, 18/7, 18/9 and 18/13 isn't that much of an increase between each step. Seems like I remember pricing 18/7 at half that of 18/13 though not to long back (well not quite half but real close). And again, I never claimed to be an electrician, but I do remember back when working golf, that w/ 14 and 12ga wire, the number of splices affected the wire rating. Even the old coper crimp and glue pot splices cost you in terms of total footage. I have always operated on the idea that avoiding splices was a good thing. Now again, when we are talking average to large residential, it probably makes no difference.

[Dirty Water]

It literally takes me a matter of seconds to cut, strip, wirenut and gelcap a connection...again, its all about what your used to and personal preference. Sometimes getting away with stuff the cheapest isn't the point...

Now again, when we are talking average to large residential, it probably makes no difference.

I automated a turf runway last winter, The installers (not us) had the foresite that the system may eventually go automatic and had buried 18/10 the entire length of the runway (2500? or so feet). Even after all the cuts in the common, we still had enough volts to operate a solinoid that far away from the timer on only 18 gauge.

Kinda shows that 14 or 12 gauge is unneccesary doesn't it?

[jerryrwm]

Well, maybe you should read the section in the irrigation manual concerning wiring where it explains length of run per wire size based on size of the common wire and size of the hot wire. It also might explain voltage drop, resistance, minimum operating voltage, and how pressure is also a function in determining wire sizing.

Also, most manufacturers have a wire size/length recommendation chart available. Hunter recommends (with certain criteria) that runs of 18 ga do not exceed 850' from controller to valve.

I wonder why electricians use 12ga wire or bigger in a house? It might be due to the heat factor reckon? Smaller wire at same voltages will generate more heat which will affect the life of the conductor. Same thing happens in irrigation systems. Electricity going through long distances or wire generates heat in the copper. 18 ga will get hotter than 14 ga. They could wire your house with 18ga wire and the lights work, but the potential for fire is multiplied exponentially as the wire size decreases.

Which brings up another point - Everyone here uses expansion coils at the valve box and every so often in the ditch and at corners right?

In my opinion, based on a few yrs of slinging dirt, 18 ga wire is okay for residential installations keeping the runs short, and using the number of conductor wire necessary to reduce cost. I prefer 16 ga for residential and light commercial, and for large commercial projects 14 ga it is. Multiconductor 18 wire has no place on a commercial installation in my opinion.

Jerry

[Wet_Boots]

Heat figures big into household wiring and the codes. That's why the various junction boxes have their volume denoted. And the electrical codes have to assume maximum loads and dead shorts. Not having a code book handy, I wonder what the minimum volume requirement is for the power connection for an outdoor controller, with the primary transformer leads and 1/2" electrical nipple.

[bicmudpuppy]

I automated a turf runway last winter, The installers (not us) had the foresite that the system may eventually go automatic and had buried 18/10 the entire length of the runway (2500? or so feet). Even after all the cuts in the common, we still had enough volts to operate a solinoid that far away from the timer on only 18 gauge.

Kinda shows that 14 or 12 gauge is unneccesary doesn't it?

That's like saying because you can make a 1" valve work between 1.5" main and lateral that it is acceptable and right. Or that because you've got great pressure a 3/4" mainline is OK. Who cares that the flow is 20fps and the water hammer will be off the charts, as long as it makes it past warranty.............

[bicmudpuppy]

Hey Jerry, how does that multi hold up to the fire ants on those resi seystems in your opinion. Best thing about moving north was I don't fight the ants anymore. One or two bites never bothered me, but I got sick as a dog after a bad series of say 10-20.

And do you have any all copper systems that you know of using the pipe for common? Had a few of these in DFW when I was down there. First one I ever saw, I had a mainline ding and used a plastic compression coupling to repair it. Lost half the system. Had to solder a jumper from one side to the other of the coupling.

Electrically, I never understood how this worked, because a broken insulator on 14ga kills a system, but the copper main is grounded out and it worked.

[Critical Care]

There is quite a bit of difference between 20 amps @ 110 volts and .3 or .5 amps @ 24 volts flowing through a specific wire size. Guess which one will generate more heat?

But... given enough resistance from wire size and length, and voltage drop, some devices such as solenoids may fail. I'd be curious to see just how far you could decrease the 24 volts going to a solenoid before it would stop functioning... Anyone ever try this? Maybe 18 volts???

Also, some controllers supply only enough current to activate one solenoid, while others offer twice the current per station and can handle multiple solenoids on one zone. Rather than the latter controller, I would think that the former controller would tend to fail first from any current leak caused from a nick in a buried wire.

[F6Hawk]

What CC said. Sure, voltage WILL drop the longer a wire run is, and there are charts that will give you that info, just ask your electrician friend, or you could probably Google it.

Bear in mind, nothing electrical is designed to work at a particular amp/volt/freq setting; they all work in ranges (this is why a transistor radio continues to work as the battery drains). Your common household voltage is not 110, but more like 100-130. Depends on the load, and just like a sprinkler system, can vary throughout the day.

[JB926]

to answer the original post a Irritrol Totoal Control as a cadilac and Rain Dial Plus for a cheaper model hands down in my experience

[Dirty Water]

What CC said. Sure, voltage WILL drop the longer a wire run is, and there are charts that will give you that info, just ask your electrician friend, or you could probably Google it.

Bear in mind, nothing electrical is designed to work at a particular amp/volt/freq setting; they all work in ranges (this is why a transistor radio continues to work as the battery drains). Your common household voltage is not 110, but more like 100-130. Depends on the load, and just like a sprinkler system, can vary throughout the day.

At that note, I've found during random troubleshooting of other peoples poor installs, that a Rainbird solinoid will operate down to about 13 volts.