THEY ARE BACK!!!

[kutnkru]

Cut-Throat Competition has begun to rear its ugly head from the woodwork. Here's the latest and greatest in flyers:

B.F.D. LAWN CARE
EXPERT MOWING $18.00/CUT
AERATIONS $50.OO
DETHATCHING $90.00
4 STEP FERT PROGRAM $250.00
*name changed to protect the stupidity of others

These were the fliers placed at the homes where the turf areas were an average of 10-13m/sf of serviceable areas.

Cant wait to see how many customers they get.
Kris

[Mark]

Surely they won't last very long how can they survive at 18dollars per cut? I still don't believe they will efect the work of those who do almost a perfect job. Beautiful work in my area sells itself. Aways has, atleast for the last 10yrs. Marks Mowing Service

[TJLC]

$18.00-20.00 per cut down here for 10,000 square ft. I guess it depends on what you're paticular market will bring.

[Skookum]

I charge $60.00 per hour or basically $1.00 per minute. I would say I mow about 1,500 sq ft a minute. 10,000 sq ft takes about 7 minutes to mow. By that LCO's price -vs- mine, that leaves 11 minutes to trim, blow and go. Depending on the site itself and how many yards in the area already servicing, I would say they are in line with what I charge for a straight simple mow account.

I generally start out at $15.00 a 1/4 acre, but quickly add to that time for all the other site conditions, travel time, extra trimming, etc...

Of course I can not see your area where these flyers were handed out, and I am not aware of your economy there, but if just a 10,000 - 13,000 sq ft plot of just grass, I would say $18.00 is a average price here. Maybe on the low side for a full maintenance company's price, but not for just a mowing outfit.

[65hoss]

Kris I completely understand. I consider an average subdivision lawn about 1/3 to 1/2 acre. I would get around $35 for this.

I wouldn't even consider putting all this expensive equipment on a lawn for less. I understand all the arguments about our market will not pay more. But you guys pay the same prices for your equipment as I do. Fuel cost are about the same. Insurance, taxes and maintenance is about the same, so why not demand more?

Your clients work for somebody. Do they get raises? Do the companies they work for accept less payment? Do they pay taxes, insurance, equipment cost and other overhead? Because of costs and inflation alone you should be concerned about prices.

I'm not talking about the super tiny lawn either.

[kutnkru]

Thats whats frustrating to me, just like Hoss stated. In our area those size propeties 99% of the time will be cut by a legitimate contractor for $30-40 per cut.

The problem and why this enfuriates me so much is because all these cut-throat competitors are doing is driving the fair market value down.

I dont like to cut the posatge stamps for less than $18 and prefer to get $22. I also agree with Scott that we should get $60 an hour.

However, I believe in minimums as well. I dont know maybe its just me, but when I bid Residential lots I bid for how long it takes using one 36" to cut. Then when we show up with a 48,52,or60" deck mower that's less time involved and more profit in our pocket.

I also think that many contractors forget to factor in what we call STUD time for the day when bidding on Lawn Accounts as well. Thats Start Travel Unload and Dump. These factors all have to be added to that inital 18 minutes.

Just what I think.
Kris

[thelawnguy]

Dont worry about it.

I find that most all my worthwhile accounts were obtained through referral, and as far as referrals go it seems price is secondary.

IOf you feel a compelling need to go after the price shopping pennysaving ad scanning customer then by all means go ahead since you will not only get a customer but one that expects much more for their shrunken dollar than the next one.

[Greenkeepers]

Don't worry in the summer when it dries out their customers will be calling you for a bid in the fall because their "experts" went under. Then you can tell them that the professionals had were lowballers and are out of business because of this.

[kutnkru]

Bill point taken about you get what you pay for, and YES I understand how they(the penny-pinching-mongrels) will always expect more for their vast expense account with their current LCO -LOL.

However, when customers begin to see that more and more newer companies are offering the same services this makes the customer's start to re-think what exactly the value of their dollar is. They too often forget about the quality factor when contemplating this.

I remember in our area two years ago many of the LCO's that I have admired the work of, and often looked to for sage advice found their customer's began to price shop. I know that these were also contractors who had been towards the top of the ladder in pricing, yet the quality of their work was phenominal. And they were only $5-8 more per cut than I. So I guess when I see this, it sort of makes the pucker factor hit.

I guess the problem then comes down to the moral deliemma of when clients begin to call you back because of the lack of professionalism(to quote Mike), should we then charge them an increase for the quality workmenship they desire to have again or do we just take them back as if nothing ever happened??

Thats the main reason why these guys are so frustrating to me, is because they force us to make decisions that I feel that we shouldnt have to. Then again maybe its a good lesson for the customers so they will appreciate both the quality and value of the dollars they are spending with us more.

Kris

[65hoss]

Kris,
I have a lady that will chase me around the yard to give me a check. She had so many problems with past people she wanted to make sure I showed up next week. Once it gets really humid down here in the summer the lowballers head for the air conditioning. On the issue of taking back customers that left. I would definately raise the price! Maybe only a buck or 2, but raise it. I'm not real sure I would take them back, but it will be several years before the $$$ come into play again. haha.

[MIDSOUTH]

what I like about lowballers is that when their murry breaks, they can't afford to fix it and they go out of biz!!
then i will take and charge the hell out of a customer when they call me back after they dumped me for a lowballer!

[cleancut]

I just hate cutthroats and lowballers..Alot of these guys are guys doing it on the side and work a f/t job somewhere else..Lowballers are hurting the entire industry..I'm not saying this to offend the other parttimers on this site but it's been my experience that the p/t's are the ones who are the cheapest..Alot of them are not licensed or insured and do not have much overhead...I bid on a spring clean-up job the other day for $150.00 and I thought I was bidding a little low...Well I called the customer back and she said that she called another guy in the paper and said that he was going to do it for $25.00...I said there's no way that I can beat that price and asked who he was...She said that he was just starting out in the business and worked a f/t job..This guy has to be absolutely stupid...The clean-up will take about 3 hours...I was once a parttimer but I always priced the job according to fair market value....If everybody would just get on the same page, we all could make more money....This subject just hits a nerve with me..Derrick

[kutnkru]

Thats why I feel that this site is so valuable. If people who are in this Industry or those who are enetering into it would just realize that although McShyDs is paying $7.50 to flip burgers that getting $10/hr for mowing is nothing but detrimental to the Industry as a whole. I cannot tell you the number of contractors in our area who are so fed up with this type of mentality that it turns the stomach here too.

I just cant fathom that when people hear about Johnny Landscaper cutting a property for $30 that they want to unedr bid him to get the account. I charge at least that but hopefully will be able to get a little bit more out of them. I also try to offer little incentives for doing business with us to help bring the value of their dollar up.

Kris

[Randy Scott]

Lowballers are just a fact of life. They're everywhere and in everything. All you can do is try to sell yourself the best you can. It doesn't matter what occupation you have, you can't get away from them. They piss me off just as much as the next guy, but that gives me drive to do better and to market myself to customers in a way that the others don't know how. You will always have the cheapskate that will never learn that you get what you pay for. On the same token, not everybody is going to agree on what they want for an income for the same kind of work. Some people are happy with alot of money and some with less. It's an ongoing battle that will never be won, or solved. Focus your energy and brain power on making your business stronger and better and more appealing than the cheaper guy. Like I said, I don't enjoy their presence either but make the best of it and focus on yourself! Just something to think about . ;)

[cleancut]

I always keep a minimum charge of $25.00 on any type of work...Even if it just takes me 5 minutes...This is my only source of income and I have alot invested in my equipment and employees..My time is valuable..When you have to pay insurance, workers comp, and license fees then you have to charge a minimum and a premium price....This can't be said enough, Lowballers hurt us all and they need to wise up....So if you're a Lowballer or Cutthroat and you're reading this, GET WITH THE PROGRAM - Then we'll all be making more money and still have all kinds of business....Derrick

[LJ lawn]

we will always have the scabs taking the work around here too.waaaay too many part-timers who have full time jobs.so when they cut a few lawns on the weekend they're all happy cause they have some extra beer or racetrack money to blow.see -they don't give a crap about the ligitimate lawn companys and they could care less if you or i pay TAX on what we earn or how much overhead we have,they just want the quick buck.i actually refuse to estimate lawns in certain towns in my area because i know it's just a big waste of my time.it's just the same story over and over: customer says: how much?? but i've ALWAYS payed xxxx amount.why are YOU more??doesn't matter to them if the quality of the service is better or not -just the price.that's when i tell them i'd also like to pay 1970 prices on my truck and fuel,but it's still just THE BIG GAME of the bidding wars.unfortunately the scabs are here to stay,and the price of living just keeps going up.too bad we can't raise our prices to reflect the rest of booming economy in this area.could it be that since everyone is being taxed to death here they have no money left over to pay for services?just my 2 cents

[lawnboy82]

KutnKru-
i get a minimum now of like 30 or 35 dollars. i try to get somewhere around 50 dollars an hour if not more for me by myself. if i am sending somebody out this year i am looking to get 100 per hour for 3 guys. but i have costs to cover. even for a postage stamp yard that has no real flower beds and is not even 5M i still am getting 35, so for somebody to be getting their house done for so little must be a kid or something. because nobody with real costs is going to do it for so little. by the way- where in new york are you? because i am up in northern westchester by the putnam line i was just wondering if we might use the same shop for machines... i use Ossining Lawn Mower just wondering if any of you other guys use them too? they are real characters those guys. they are also a wealth of information.

[lawnboy82]

i got one for you...
i was workin at a multi million dollar estate last year. 3 acres of grass. took me by myself with a 48" walkbehind and trimmer 5 hrs to do one time it took 8 hrs. i went to the secretary in the spring and told her i wanted 150 which was what the tree guy told me the old guy was gettin. this place is worth easily 200 to cut though. she showed me bills for the past year for 90$ to cut/trim/blow walks
so i told her 100$ per cut tried it once and found it was takin me too long so i went to the old man and asked for 150 he gave it to me... here is the thing though: 150 to cut the grass 150 to clean the property. now the property itself is 150 acres. i had to clean maybe 4
it took my 2 guys 11 1/2 hrs to cut and clean. so that is 23 man hours. the secretary last month told me that she would never pay what i was charging her this past year. there are some cheap people in this world. a friend of mine told me that the rich people are ones who are cheap. now i can see this as being true some times, but a lot of other times people are willing to pay good money as long as you dont blatantly rip them off.

[kutnkru]

LB83

Im quite a bit farther north than you near the PA border in the Binghamton area and we travel as far north as Syracuse.

Kris

[lawnboy82]

i wasnt sure what you had meant by "southern tier" i had figured that you were either around here or maybe rockland county. that is quite a ride you have goin. later-

[jay]

Do you ever get calls like this? Hi, how much do you guys charge for an average size yard? I say; I have to see the yard first, What's your address? Oh, I just want to get an estimate. Sorry, I can't do them over the phone. But I called Joe Blow and he said he would do weekly service for $60. Then you try to explain to them there's no way anyone can give a legit bid over the phone. But, they never listen.

I get the feeling a lot of times these are our scabs trying to get a price so they can under bid us. What can we say or do to detour this? Lawn service companies they call will give them estimates over the phone, because they don't know what they are doing either. I wish we could round them up somehow and give them all a little of education of what they doing to the economy. Do you ever get calls like this? Hi, how much do you guys charge for an average size yard? I say; I have to see the yard first, What's your address? Oh, I just want to get an estimate. Sorry, I can't do them over the phone. But I called Joe Blow and he said he would do weekly service for $60. Then you try to explain to them there's no way anyone can give a legit bid over the phone. But, they never listen.

I get the feeling a lot of times these are our scabs trying to get a price so they can under bid us. What can we say or do to detour this? Lawn service companies they call will give them estimates over the phone, because they don't know what they are doing either. I wish we could round them up somehow and give them all a little of education of what they doing to the economy.

It makes it hard to detour people from doing the wrong thing such as paying taxes when there able to get away with it and it saves them $1000 of dollars. Something in my opinion definitely needs to be done to people like this. There costing all of us tax payers a lot of money. I wish there was some way we could all band together to solve this problem. Maybe write to congress or something.

[landscaper3]

Being 75% commercial we range from $100per mow up to $800.00 per mow. As far as residential our trailer gates dont get dropped for anything under $40.00 per cut. Only exeption would be if they were under a full season contact which we would make at least double that that plowing. There are alot of guys around here mowing for cheap cash and they can have there customer base we will stick with our commercial and higher end homes and schools.

[GroundKprs]

For the first couple of years I was in business, I too worried about the few dozen new operators each year, with their rusty trucks & beat up mowers. But at least in our market, these lowballers are a benefit to the industry. By the time they start to fade in June/July, their customers are spoiled, and do not think of going back to do the work themselves. This provides a larger customer base for the established contractors. The new ones who make it thru the mowing season, but cannot survive the winter, are especially helpful in increasing the business of the oldtimers.

For any customer with a season contract, we have a discount from list price, varying from 5% to 15% depending on the type of service and longevity. If someone is taken on mid-season, this would be list price until contracts go out for next season. So I do not mind waiting for some of the lowballers to fade; helps me to get the season started off better, and just add (higher profit) work later if (when) it comes.

[Joatmon]

I was waiting on a "friend" at his house today. He drove up as I was looking at an Exmark brochure, he told me not to waste my time or money on equipment that was demeaning and becoming a "yardboy"...I looked over at the Craftsman mower he bought last year & informed him that when his mower broke this year as it did last year, I would be happy to demean myself & charge him $70/hr for his 5 acres :-)

Joatmon

[kutnkru]

Now thats something that I hadnt thought about Jim. I never really looked at it from the point of view as the new weed crop each year as introducing potential clients to the Industry. When I think about it from an optimistic point of view it actually isnt so bad.

Thanks :-)
Kris

[Paradise Yard Service]

Howzit Kutnkru,
Well, well. I thought ol F.B.C. (Faster, Better, Cheaper) was out of business. Well it must have reared its ugly head again. Still a cat under a different name. The only way these guys usually live up to their name by July humid is the Cheaper part, then they die.

Since the home construction has seen a surge recently in Hawaii, I don't see that many ex whoevahs driving around with lawn mowers in there trucks, their drying up! There was a time that the only ones with lawn equipment in their trucks were legit LCOs/landscapers. Recession hit in the 90s. Things changed with sooooo many fly-by-nighters (I was slightly concerned) but I kept prices/professionalism up and all my accounts stayed on. This has been the way I've operated since 1985 and it works. Confidence in your service, and knowledge of the industry/business will keep you out in front of the pack.
Aloha,
P.Y.S.

[kutnkru]

You see Jo thats how I figure it as well. I wish all my buddies the best of luck in their professions and am always willing to put in the good for them at work so they can get that new raise! This way I figure just like you do, have mower will travel -LOL.

Afterall, What are friends for.
Kris

[Barkleymut]

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?threadid=1506

Around here its a joke to see some of the SWEET rigs guys are hauling around come April. But gotta love those scrubs.

[kutnkru]

OH I forgot you said u went to a georgia college:)
Guess I should have studied harder so I could have con tinued my education in California after my folks went South. Just goes to show you some of the raods we have to travel when we make the wrong choices in life. Then I could have saved all that wasted money I spent in Georgia.

ROFLMAO all the way to the bank. But on a more serious note now I am currently enrolled in the Penn State Turfgrass Management Program so that I can undo all those wasted term papers.

LOL
Kris

[geogunn]

as I live in a large subdivision, my mailbox is the target of many flyers, hangers, handouts and unfortunately baseball bats.

the next joker that hangs a "full service for $15 to $20" hanger in my mailbox, I'm gonna let him cut it.

and by the way, I'm gonna tell him I want it cut every two weeks, no cutting short, no clumping, want it bagged, and everything else that goes along with high quality lawn care. he better not touch my dogwood trees with the string trimmer and I don't want to see any clippings.

he probably won't mind taking a check either.

GEO

[kutnkru]

Would you like fries with that order Geo?? -LOL
I hear ya Buddy Row.
Kris

[plow kid]

Geo, if I got a flyer like that i would let them do it also, Let them step in the dog schitt!!.....lol

[inside-out]

I see that all the time where I am at. My minimum for any yard is $25.00. good luck making any money if your less than that.

[bob]

I had a telamarketer call my house last night for some lawn company I never heard of. They wanted to give an estimate. I told them ,sure come out.

[kutnkru]

I have never heard any of our clients say anything positive about this form of advertising. Therefore, I would personally NEVER try to acquire accounts this way. The people have spoken on this one IMHO.

Just my .02
Kris

[bobbygedd]

L.J., YOUR LUCKY IM IN A GOOD MOOD

[65hoss]

Ring ring ring...
Hello lowballers are us cutting service.
I see your ad all lawns for $20.
yes sir!
Ok good, I have 50. The church needs to be done on fridays, the commercial account at 5:30 am before the cars arrive, and all the others during your other times. By the way, they range from 1/2 acre to 2 acres for residentials. Come by tomorrow for the addresses.

Talk about a great way to sub it out. Make good money without sweat, fuel cost,equipment cost or anything.

[jrblawncare]

I sure hope they call Me....even if I have to follow them around cleaning up their mess, it would still be worth it!!We all get on this LOWBALL roll to vent once in awhile and it still bothers me too...But I have found that if you are doing other things like fertiliation,weed control,design and installation...these services separate the men from the boys.Most lowballers that are just chasing grass do not have a idea on what plant should go where and for what reasons.Just my thoughts,JRB