T190 or Tl130

[AWJ Services]

Anyone have any experience with these 2 machines?
Looking at both .
I am interested in there grading ability and also there ability too up root trees with bucket by curling.
Mostly 4 too 6 inch trees maybe a little bigger.
Also what about running attachments like harley rakes ,etc.
The Bobcat has better support ,but I like the hideaway front door of the Tl130.Both will be AC machines.
Also is High flow on the Bobcat worth getting.

[ksss]

I think the Takeuchi is lot more machine. I spent two days demoing a 190 and thought very little of it. Low on power, went over relief too easy, and was very loud, excessive hydraulic noise, too much feedback in the controls, because it has no servos, it is far from low effort on the controls. I ran a TL150 which is quite a bit bigger and it had none of the issues of the Bobcat. But if you can run them both, and you can compare for yourself.

[AWJ Services]

The TL 140 and the TL 150 are both big machines.The TL130 and the T 190 are similar machines.I here mixed reviews on the power.
I have nothing too compare it too if I do demo it.I have limited seat time in a skidsteer.
I would love a TL140 or 150 but they are bothe 50 k machines.
The TL130 is a 40 k machine as the Bobcat is.
I would also like someone too explain the lifting ability.I understand the ratings ,but what is the max they will pickup.They listthe tipping load so is that the Limit?

[StoneStacker]

The tipping load is not what the machine will actually lift, but at what weight the machine will actually tip over on it's nose. this is determined by positioning the bucket at the point in it's lift path in which it is the "farthest" point away from the machines center of gravity. Once here, weights are placed in the bucket until it tips over. The manufacturer then rates the machine at 50% of that tipping load, or 35% for track loaders. 99% of all machines will be able to lift more than 50% of the tipping load. Some will be able to hydraulically lift more than the tipping load, but it's more important to know what the machine will "safely" be able to lift and maneuver with. I know this was wordy, so I apologize.

[AWJ Services]

Thanks for the explanation.
I talked too my local Takeuchi Dealer today and he was very informative.
I asked him about what makes his machine better than the T190 and he pointed out what he thought made his machine better and never really said anything bad about the T190 just that he thought his was better.

[Caribbean Breeze]

AWJ,

You're looking at the 2 best brands available. Takeuchi has a dependable machine for sure and it would give you good service.
I do think that the Bobcat may have a better resale value but it depends.
The Bobcats are a bit louder but from what I am hearing the Bobcat burns less fuel and may give better engine life over the long term.
Both units have advantages & disadvantages.
I think you should look at the new track options on the T190, it lower the ground pressure further.
Don't worry too much about choosing between the 2 - both a top of the line.

Good Luck,
Caribbean Breeze

[AWJ Services]

Thanks for all the info.

I found a good deal on a T 180 machine loaded that with low hours.
It would save me alot of money.
I assume they are the same as the T 190 except for the vertical lift?

[Tigerotor77W]

Let us know how it goes. And yes, the T180 and T190 are identical machines except for the lift arm configuration... much as the S160 and S185 are' identical machines in the sqme regard.

[AWJ Services]

I hope too be arranging for a demo soon with the Takeuchi.
The Bobcats for demo are closer.
The nearest Takeuchi dealer is across town.

Your comments help me alot in my decission.I have since found a local grading compny that has both Takeuchi and Bobcat track machines that have been in service for awhile and say it,s a toss up.
He did say however he feels the Bobcats engines seem too be lasting longer,but the Takeuchi was a little more productive.
He says on his next purchase it will still be the price which will determine the brand between the 2.

[Caribbean Breeze]

I hope too be arranging for a demo soon with the Takeuchi.
The Bobcats for demo are closer.
The nearest Takeuchi dealer is across town.

Your comments help me alot in my decission.I have since found a local grading compny that has both Takeuchi and Bobcat track machines that have been in service for awhile and say it,s a toss up.
He did say however he feels the Bobcats engines seem too be lasting longer,but the Takeuchi was a little more productive.
He says on his next purchase it will still be the price which will determine the brand between the 2.

AWJ,

A very important issue with CTL's is - track life and maintenance & application. I talked to some guys yesterday and said that they found the Bobcat stood up to heavy excavation work better than the Takechi which stalled a couple of times. Maybe this is a minor issue.
It looks like the Bobcat Engines burn a little less fuel.
I would go for the T180 if the price is right but check to see the hp, the first units that Bobcat made were slightly under powered, the ugraded unit has 61hp - try to get this one.
Either way, both are excellent units.

All the best

CB

[AWJ Services]

A very important issue with CTL's is - track life and maintenance & application. I talked to some guys yesterday and said that they found the Bobcat stood up to heavy excavation work better than the Takechi which stalled a couple of times. Maybe this is a minor issue.
It looks like the Bobcat Engines burn a little less fuel.
I would go for the T180 if the price is right but check to see the hp, the first units that Bobcat made were slightly under powered, the ugraded unit has 61hp - try to get this one.
Either way, both are excellent units.

All the best


The unit is supposed to be 2005.I will double check ,but supposed too be the 61 hp.It can be bought for 33,000 with 12 hours and the gold package.
I am a big fan of Kubota engines.That is a plus for the bobcat.
Heavy digging on a machine like a Bobcat with no control over the stalling of the engine like the Cats have makes it a good digging machine in the right hands.It allows you too use the Engines inertia were the Cats will not.
Also they will stall very easy too if you are not careful.
Hey with fuel over 2 bucks a gallon every gallon saved is a plus.

[Tigerotor77W]

It's good to hear about the company that uses both -- as Caribbean mentioned, definitely check out how the tracks and undercarriages are holding up. Remember that they'll be your biggest profit drain over a regular SSL... so a gallon saved a day might not offset a much higher undercarriage bill.

Keep us posted.

[Avery]

I think the Takeuchi is lot more machine. I spent two days demoing a 190 and thought very little of it. Low on power, went over relief too easy, and was very loud, excessive hydraulic noise, too much feedback in the controls, because it has no servos, it is far from low effort on the controls. I ran a TL150 which is quite a bit bigger and it had none of the issues of the Bobcat. But if you can run them both, and you can compare for yourself.

I do not care for the Bobcat T190 either. I am currently demo'ing one for a week but plan on taking it back much sooner. I agree with it being very low on power, very noisy, and too much effort required for the controls. Mine was so noisy and weak that I suspected it had air in the hydraulic system and called the company to come check it out. Said they would. That was two days ago. Have not heard back from them. If they do not care about be before I buy how well will they take care of me after I buy?? I currently have three JD tractors. A 770, 4310, and 5410. The 4310 will work circles around the T190. Also the T190 is too complicated IMO. Too many idiot features. Every time you get off the machine you have to punch a bunch of buttons to get the thing working again. Tractor I get off, get back on and go to work. And they can say what they want about tipping load. I picked up a 1507 lb boulder (as measured on the quarry scale) and put the machine on it's noise. And it would barely pick it up to begin with. Also when traveling with a bucket full of sand the machine does not have sufficient hydraulic flow to move and lift the bucket at the same time. You must stop to change the height of the load. Not very efficient. The machine I rented has 600 hrs. and the tracks already look shot to me. I could go on and on about things I do not like about this machine but cannot think of one thing I do like about it. I plan on trying a Cat track loader for comparison, but feel I will be sticking with tractors for the immediate future.

[Caribbean Breeze]

Avery,

Bobcat has recently improved on their servos and yes the noise and hand control feedback is hard on an operator. This will change.

Track life really depends on the application and the attention to the track tension, on rental machines you will find that the tracks have to be changed at under 800hrs, on our units, we run them up to 1400 hrs.

Bobcat has some shortcomings like every other manufacturer, I know that they are working to better their machines, some people just love those units and some don't, good luck

CB

[ksss]

CB, your right, some guys like these Bobcat track machines and some don't. Being in the latter catagory, I can't see what they are so happy about. Without being biased, they suck (the track market holds no interest to me). Maybe they are improving but they have fielded a lot of machines just like the one I ran and that was in '03 and apparently they have not improved the current machines, judging from Avery's post. However, I confess that I don't feel much better about their wheeled machines either. I acknowledge that they are the industry leader in sales. I just don't know why. I am not "waving the flag" for Takeuchi or anyone elses track machine, but the performance of Bobcat's track machines is substandard in my book. Is it because many guys have always run Bobcat and don't expect any thing more from a machine?

I also wonder how a rental fleet can make out on replacing tracks and what ever else it needs at the time in 800 hours. That is about the life I get out of a set of tires. Considering they have to cover the cost of the machine which is about 15K more on average plus the cost of track replacement, how can they charge enough to cover those costs in such a short amount of time.

I think that once everyone that "had to have a track machine" has one, it will be interesting how many go back to one. I believe that many will learn that the specialty market that these machines excel in isn't their market. I suspect it will be a costly learning experience for many.

[UNISCAPER]

Regardless of whose MTL or CTL you buy, (I would not even consider any machine that was not made by CAT) you need to factor one thing in.

It is imparative that you get accurate numbers on average usage for your application track life, and track/undercarraige cost. And don't take them from your salesman, get them from others in the field who operate the machines. When we bought our first 257, I asked over 40 others who owned them in the class we took about tracks and life to get our average.

Since Bobcat and Tacuchi both use a rubber vulcanized to steel, it is rare either machine will get over 1000 hours on any set of tracks as those tracks were designed to operate on mini excavators, not CTL's which turn alot faster and build more heat than a mini X.
Said that, you need to take that track cost (say $4,000 for both sides just to start from a point) divide that number by 1000, (or 2000 if your numbers will support it) and add that cost plus labor and down time to the cost or your hourly run time recovery.
When we bill for our 257's, we use a 2000 hour schedule have added $7.00 to our hourly rate just to recover track wear costs.
That money goes into our scheduled maintenance budget so when the tracks need to be replaced, the money is there, earning interest the whole time until we need it. This is crucial you do this for the long term and discipline yourself to set it aside and not touch the money.
If for whatever reason you trade in or up with what you own, you can either put that money down on a new one, or keep it in your fund earning interest to help the net assets/worth of your company grow so you can get a bigger bond if you need it. Good luck on your choice.

[AWJ Services]

Since Bobcat and Tacuchi both use a rubber vulcanized to steel, it is rare either machine will get over 1000 hours on any set of tracks as those tracks were designed to operate on mini excavators, not CTL's which turn alot faster and build more heat than a mini X.

Takeuchis tracks are metal too metal.The rubber only touches the ground.
Too say rubber builds heat and wears prematurely goes against all princples of Motorized transprtation as we know it today.
Take a cat or ASV system and as you slowly drive it have someone feed crush and run into the track rollers and drive and see how long it lasts.
They actually demo Takeuchi Track loaders this way.

Takeuchi pioneered The tracked Skid steer as we know it.
If the Cat ASV system was so great why has no other skid steer manufacturer adopted it.
Funny they all pretty much look just like Bobcat,Takeuchi tracked systems with similar tracks and Rollers.


Since Bobcat and Tacuchi both use a rubber vulcanized to steel, it is rare either machine will get over 1000 hours on any set of tracks

Most used (Bobcat Takeuchi)machines around here are usually 1200 too 2000 hours.I have only seen about 10 percent of those that had already had tracks replaced.

In georgia we work in very hard clay continually stressing the the tracks and drive system as we work.I know one company who has 2 T300 and 1 T190 with all 3 over 1100 hours on tracks.2 rough grade Machine and the other
strictly finish work.

One thing I think we all agree on and that is the Tracked Loader has it's faults too go along with it's positives.
We all tend too flock too what we are used too and follow brands by what we own.
Including me

[UNISCAPER]

"If the Cat ASV system was so great why has no other skid steer manufacturer adopted it."

Simply because A, those manufacturers have dialed in their production lines to what they currrently build and would take a hit on their net for years to be able to recover the loss. And B, ASV will soon be wholey owned subsidiary of Caterpillar. The deal started 19 months ago. The genration 2 tracking systems the C series machines will have will last even longer than what is current.

And I know Georgia clay pretty well, we built a golf course down near Atlanta in '89-90. Pretty nasty stuff, but I have to say the Southern Cal clays and DG's are the worst of the 15 states I have worked. Each of our planting crews carry jack hammers to loosen soil for planting. It is common to have a large deposit of volcanic hard edged rocks in the soil which, are horrible on tracks..

And, as far as vulcanized rubber, heat steel, the studies I have read say other wise.
I have never really been a fan of studies because the producer slants the numbers to make their point. The trashed vulcanized tracks systems I have seen basically back up what the studies are saying. True, automotive uses and vulcanized rubber go hand in hand. How many broken motor mounts have you ever changed? That's why we chain the torque side of a street race car, so when the mounts are pushed to the limits, they don't break. And, track drive applications are so far out of the normal automotive box, there really is no comparison. If you can find one automotive alpplication similar the the heat/wear and usuage of an MTL, I'm all ears, this kind of stuff is of great interest to me, I would love to read it and grow my knowledge base. We have run over Class 2 roadbase, which is basically crusher run, and all MTL manuals basically advise against continued usage in that environment, no matter whose brand. Tac might give a demo tape like that, but lets be real. If your machine did that day in and out, something is going to break sooner than later. that's a given.

As far as the limiting valves Cat uses, all that does is saves the life of your machine when some idiot under your employ decides he is going to drive through a 20' deep, 100'wide pile of dirt with a bucket that was already full. I used to love watching concrete laborers driving full bore into a pile of sand, spinning the wheels of their skid steer, and jamming into reverse to spread gravel...Sheer idiocy. Where a machine that allows full power to the tracks will sit there and spin, or lift the tail up as you overload the boom, Cat took the thinking away from the operators. The valve is a very well thought addition to the machine, and our 257's have done every job we bought them for. I have said, I wish they had an engine from a 287, simply because I like power and noise.

And your ABSOLUTELY right. We all flock to our brands, and mine is obvoius. The primary reason I stay by mine is the impeccable service every Cat dealer nation wide has given us. We have been to 15 different dealers and they are all wired the same witrh the same intent for their product users.
No one I know can top a call to service, and a service truck on a job site in 35 minutes. We lost 2 hours that day on one machine, and they were fully prepared to deliver a loaner if we needed it for the downed time.... No one I know with any brand machine will get that. For us every operable minute is money. And a downed machine is lost money if even for an hour. And our Caterpillar stock puircahsed at $36.00 a share is sitting around $95.00. No heavy equipment manufacturer can boast that. They are a solid company, putting all their revenues back into our economy.

It does sound like you have you track wear numbers down pat. And, I think we can all be in agreement at no matter whose track system you operate with, at 2000 hours, in crappy soils, or whatever conditions, you are going to be looking for replacements. That should be no different regardless of brand, you absolutley need to recover that in your hourly and so long as you do, you won't be pinched when common wear parts do wear out.

Good luck with your purchase, I hope you enjoy it as much as I love our Caterpillars.

[AWJ Services]

No one I know can top a call to service, and a service truck on a job site in 35 minutes. We lost 2 hours that day on one machine, and they were fully prepared to deliver a loaner if we needed it for the downed time.... No one I know with any brand machine will get that. For us every operable minute is money. And a downed machine is lost money if even for an hour. And our Caterpillar stock puircahsed at $36.00 a share is sitting around $95.00. No heavy equipment manufacturer can boast that. They are a solid company, putting all their revenues back into our economy.

Bobcat is feeling the hurt from Cat that is for sure.
We have Bobcat corporate stores here in Atlanta and they are really pushing that there service will be equal too Cats.
I was realy swayed towards there sales pitch till I met a guy who purchased a New T300 and the left track ran off .He called the dealer and after numerous attempts too repair it and 3 months of downtime He finally tells them too swap him for another unit.
They said they could not.They finally got it fixed and he is back up and working.All this in the first 20 hours of operation.


Simply because A, those manufacturers have dialed in their production lines to what they currrently build and would take a hit on their net for years to be able to recover the loss.

New Holland,Jcb,and a few others recently added tracked systems.I wonder why they chose the takeuchi style.


Uniscaper.I really appreciate your comments and you seem well educated on Tracked Skid Steers .
The kind of work I do would be great for a Tracked system and I feel the Cat is an excellent choice because of the name and the service.Afterall a broke machine no matter who makes it will not generate much income.
Also the prices of the Tracks are coming down as the poularity increase.
Tires are alot less too replace and the difference between tracks and tire
money wise is substainal,But when you factor in the fact that tracks over tires will also be needed if you want too work in wet conditions then the price gets closer.

[UNISCAPER]

"We have Bobcat corporate stores here in Atlanta and they are really pushing that there service will be equal too Cats.
I was realy swayed towards there sales pitch till I met a guy who purchased a New T300 and the left track ran off .He called the dealer and after numerous attempts too repair it and 3 months of downtime He finally tells them too swap him for another unit.
They said they could not.They finally got it fixed and he is back up and working.All this in the first 20 hours of operation."


This is what I'm talking about...This to me, this is a HUGE problem in all equipment from lawn mowers to skid steer/tractors, until Cat integrated their large machine service reputation into their MTL lines. It's the kind of thought that takes them out of the sales and numbers end and lets them think like we as business owners need to think like. that said, production time is everything, and so is down time.. It is one thing to give great service to your heavy users, those who buy several D-8's a year, scrapers, graders and alike....People who spend millions of dollars a year expect and are eentitled to this, and in comparison so are a one machine operator when you look at the ratio of revenue in and dollars of machine purchased.
In comparison, say a one machine operator looses a day of serivce with his compact machine. It would be the equivelant to that huge operator loosing service on every piece on the job that they own, and since that is not likely to occur, it is a much greater with respect to the operation.
I would hate to think about making payroll, machine payments and all the other associated stuff on those machines while every one was down. It's those little things, like servicing the small operator that really make a difference in a machine choice, no matter whose it may be.

I have wondered about the New Holland and other machine drive systems myself. Then I thought about this...Leogering system was the one ASV merged into to sell for other machines.. I have not seen evidence, but I'm betting ASV/Cat have an exclusive agreement of sorts. Personally, I wish they could incorporate all steel in an undercarraige on an MTL, but for whatever reason, the same rep[orts that say vulcanized rubber is a no no, say all stell on an MTL is a no no. Remember the early JD 15, and 25 excavators? Steel tracks. And the 15 was the size of the 301.8, or the dinky 3' wide Bobcat. So, there must be some reason.

Soon, you are going to see retread tracks. I did not say this earlier, but, we have a set given to us and being tested for a retread company whose name I can't say right now. We have been pounding them up and down the 2 and 3-1 slopes hoping they separate, or self destruct early. 500 hours and nothing yet. If tracks can be treaded, that should get them from the $2,000 each price, into under $1,000.00. And, as the contracts with the rubber companies expire, those rubber companies will be allowed to sell to tire stores rather than exclusivley to dealers who have to add their mark up in order to make money. Selling direct should help costs a bit. I can shudder to think what the early rubber tracks cost, when few companies ran them.

But it all goes back to what I stand by that should be everyones rule. If you loose a track and you gripe about the price, it's no fault other than your own for not calculating the replacement cost into the hourly rates you bill for the machines you run. We run MTL equipment, to get our work done. And, our clients pay to maintain the MTL, not us. If you set your numbers and budget well, when not if you wear out a track on any machine is not a real big issue anymore.

[AWJ Services]

If you loose a track and you gripe about the price, it's no fault other than your own for not calculating the replacement cost into the hourly rates you bill for the machines you run.

Well said.

[StoneStacker]

I have been reading many of the comments on this board about MTLs (both Bobcat and CAT) and the different types of tracks and makers. I would love to get a tracked machine, but I can't fit one into my business plan yet. I do have a close friend that has owned the early ASVs, a bobcat and a CAT MTL. Quite a bit of the topics seem to mention CAT's purchase of ASV, but I only thought CAT owned part of them. I decided to call ASV on Friday to find out their side of the story about CAT and the systems and I talked to someone in their sales division. I was told that CAT owns almost 25% of ASV, but the rumors about them buying them out have been going on for sometime. He said that CAT used to have the opportunity to buy 51% of the company, but that deal is not in effect anymore. He did say that CAT could still buy ASV, but only if they bought the stock through the open market like a "regular investor". He said that the only agreement in effect was for CAT to have access to ASV's undercarriage technology. Period.

As far as the different systems out there, the guy said that the big difference was that one system (ASV/CAT) was designed to go fast and the rest were like a mini-ex (just like uniscaper has said and i've heard before). He asked me why I thought that there wasn't a 6 or 7mph steel track loader considering that CAT, CASE, Deere, and all of the others have been making the undercarriages for years. I drew a blank, but was told it was because of the increased wear and damage to the machine (motor mounts, pumps, operators, etc). This made a little bit of sense, but I'm not an engineer. I was also told that all of the competitors don't have pins and busings like the large dozers and that speeds up wear. The last thing he told me was to go to the bridgestone website and look for a link for rubber tracks (he said that most of the other machines- he called them rigid mounted undercarriages- use this track) to find a document that talks about the competitors tracks and ways to make them last longer because it would explain why the tracks don't last as long as theirs. I haven't gone yet because I don't have a tracked machine, but maybe one of you guys can.

I know this is long, but the discussions with MTLs in them seem to be the most intense and I wanted to find out what I could. I enjoyed talking to the gentleman from ASV as he seemed very knowledgeable about the market, but I'm sure he is biased just like everyone is to some extent.

[AWJ Services]

I really feel there is alot of misinformation about tracked skid steers.
Time will tell on which were true and which were urban legends.

[Caribbean Breeze]

Bobcat is feeling the hurt from Cat that is for sure.
We have Bobcat corporate stores here in Atlanta and they are really pushing that there service will be equal too Cats.
I was realy swayed towards there sales pitch till I met a guy who purchased a New T300 and the left track ran off .He called the dealer and after numerous attempts too repair it and 3 months of downtime He finally tells them too swap him for another unit.
They said they could not.They finally got it fixed and he is back up and working.All this in the first 20 hours of operation.




New Holland,Jcb,and a few others recently added tracked systems.I wonder why they chose the takeuchi style.


Uniscaper.I really appreciate your comments and you seem well educated on Tracked Skid Steers .
The kind of work I do would be great for a Tracked system and I feel the Cat is an excellent choice because of the name and the service.Afterall a broke machine no matter who makes it will not generate much income.
Also the prices of the Tracks are coming down as the poularity increase.
Tires are alot less too replace and the difference between tracks and tire
money wise is substainal,But when you factor in the fact that tracks over tires will also be needed if you want too work in wet conditions then the price gets closer.

Guys,

We must remember that a brand can only survive given that the dealer provides the right support for it, there are cases of this type with all brands of machines and I know of a New Cat D11 2004 that was down for 2 months due to a warranty failure in the engine and it had to replaced...

These issues are for the dealers to handle. You cannot balme the brand for this situation, Dealers across the world vary in ability to provide support.
In the islands and Venezuela, Caterpillar has low market share and provides absolutely terrible service but it is the dealers NOT the BRAND.

Bobcat and other manufacturers all have challenges in terms of managing dealers to keep the end users happy, Caterpillar is very strong in support but not everywhere in the world, same as Bobcat, Komatsu etc....

Take a Trip to Barbados, Trinidad & Tobago and you will see alot of Komatsu & JCB, go to Venezuela and you will see alot of Volvo & Komatsu. But this does not justify why myself or anyone else should blame Cat.

The track came off because of improper tension, there is always more to a story so I would not believe everything I hear.

Support is the key and in some markets & states, the weak dealers for Bobcat, Cat, Komatsu, Volvo, John Deere, Case, New Holland, Hitachi etc. should do better.

I have worked at a German factory for 3 years that makes Mobile Harbour Cranes up to 120tons, the support department is the fastest growing because the the growth of crane population....There will always be minor bugs in all brands and that why there is a dealer network..don't place the blame squarely on the brand.

The role of a dealer to address and provide quick and fair support is key. In closing I would tell you that you must consider - BRAND - DEALER SUPPORT - RESALE ETC. When buying a machine.

If you have a dealer that is not providing the support, call the manufacturer, get on to the sales / service manager for the area that you're in and advise so the MANUFACTURER can help you. Thats why he /she is there...

[UNISCAPER]

We must remember that a brand can only survive given that the dealer provides the right support for it, there are cases of this type with all brands of machines and I know of a New Cat D11 2004 that was down for 2 months due to a warranty failure in the engine and it had to replaced...

These issues are for the dealers to handle. You cannot balme the brand for this situation, Dealers across the world vary in ability to provide support.
In the islands and Venezuela, Caterpillar has low market share and provides absolutely terrible service but it is the dealers NOT the BRAND.

World wide, I agree. Though Caterpillar has given us good service considering where we have worked (Saudi Arabia, Germany, Italy) and the US, I can't speak for wwhere we have not worked.

[Caribbean Breeze]

Uniscaper,

On a serious note, Cat probably leads in terms of consistent service. I can't say for sure because as we have established, it varies from place to place.

I do believe that other brands do offer good support and in many cases at a affordable price compared to Cat. When someone is now starting a business he or she may opt for a more affordable package such as that of the Korean brands or JCB etc..

In this business, there is a slice of the pie for everyone and I don't think that Caterpillar is the absolute best brand. They may be the biggest, but don't lead in every product line, where I'm from, the size of your company does not matter, what matters is the product's ability to ad value to its users operation...improving their bottom line.....

If I were to buy a Dozer, I will buy Cat, for excavators Komatsu. A mini ex Kubota or Yanmar...A forklift Hyster, ag tractor John Deere.

[AWJ Services]

The track deal was an assembly manufacturing problem.The dealer had a hard time fixing it.The owner never really got a straight answer.
The owner however made 3 payments before he ever was able too bill any hours with it.

In this business, there is a slice of the pie for everyone and I don't think that Caterpillar is the absolute best brand. They may be the biggest, but don't lead in every product line, where I'm from, the size of your company does not matter, what matters is the product's ability to ad value to its users operation...improving their bottom line.....


100 percent correct.

Thanks guys for responding.

[Caribbean Breeze]

AWJ,

That dealer does not properly represent what we should expect to recieve from Bobcat Dealers, again we see that it is the dealers that makes the difference working in tandem with the manufacturer to keep us users happy. I hear stories like this about other brands too...So this dealer does not have a 'PATENT' on their slow service.

Yes there are a few dealers that may have a service attitude that ' park it to the back, when we have time we'll fix it'. That dealer and the Bobcat service manager for that state should check themselves before checking the machine.
I would have called Bobcat directly if it was my machine.

Thanks & all the best,

CB

[Tigerotor77W]

I'm very impressed with the thoughts and comments here -- it's a very encouraging sign!

A few points I wanted to add to the melee of opinions.

1) Cat's holding some shares of ASV stock was not "only" for Cat... whatever the salesman may say, Cat engines found their way into the ASV product. Certain Cat dealers could also sell or rent the ASV product from what I understand. And finally, Cat's anti-stall feature is now in the larger ASV machines, as as Cat;s first-generation joystick controls. StoneStacker, your final point is valid: remember that each company will put its own spin on things, as Caribbean Breeze reminded me before. While each manufacturer will claim that its product is the best, they are not claiming each product is the best for every user. I was speaking to a [rather rude] foreman on a jobsite yesterday, who claimed that the S300 -- one of the best-balanced skids available, in my opinion -- was bouncy and rough. This, about a machine that is promoted as a "smooth-riding, long wheelbase" machine? Just goes to show that to each his own.

2) Dealers are not always given the full information. If there was some serious defect in manufacturing, as was the case with certain Deere 200 series skids, dealers might not be told outright and immediately that there is a problem. After all, the potential benefits of fixing the immediate problem and getting a better brand image may outweigh the potential of disaster. That's usually up to the manufacturer to decide, and if all goes badly, it's the dealer that gets burned. But was it the dealer's fault for marketing and supporting what may have been an inferior product?

[3) The concept of rubber heating up is no surprise. Tires must heat up significantly. Energy goes to the tire through the axle, and given that the principle (so suggested by physicists, anyhow ;)) of conservation of energy, the energy from the axle has to go somewhere -- one is friction (which results in heat); the other is sound (road noise). Sound waves are not high-energy waves; therefore, most of the energy absorbed by the tire goes into heat. Not a big deal, but just wanted to mention it.]
Not sure how best to put forth the idea of "What if the wheel is unpowered?" The tire heats up from its contact with the road surface anyhow, which is due to movement. The tire has movement -- it is rolling. At infinitesimally (spelling) small increments in time, there is a single part of the tire touching the road surface... regardless of driven or not. This tiny bit of friction is enough to heat even undrive tires, I would suspect... I'll try something this week and see how it goes.

I think the whole difficultly of brand image and loyalty is that the dealer has to provide support for products, so it must assume that the product is superior to that of its competitors. However, one word of dissent frequently goes a lot farther in convincing people than several more words of assent; after all, when we buy things, we look for 80% positive ratings (or hopefully above). Would we really want to buy a product if one of two people said it was bad? But the dealer itself can't quite give up and let go of selling its services. It, as a business, still has to fend for itself. In some cases, that obviously goes wrong...

In short, it's all based on faith and trust, both from user and dealer.

[Avery]

Well I took the Bobcat back today. Salesman (smiling) asked me how I liked it. He stood drop jawed for the next 10-15 minutes while I told him everything I did not like about the machine. Went from there to the Cat store. Messed around on a 257 in the parking lot. Loved everything about this machine. One hand to operate the drive, one to operate the bucket. I admit I have very limited experience with skidsteers. Have only rented one a handful of times in the 20+ years I have been in the landscape industry. But it really makes me wonder why anyone would buy a Bobcat that takes two hands to move and two feet to work the bucket when the Cat is so simple. Am I missing something here? And yes I know some Bobcats have wobble stick controls for the bucket but that still requires two hands for the bucket. One is much more efficient IMO. Cat has lower PSI, suspension seat, suspension in the tracks, no need to punch half a dozen buttons to get it working again if you get off, and a foot throttle. The rental I had went through almost a tank of fuel in one day because you have to set a hand throttle. You do not always need to run @ 2200 rpms.

Now my only problem with Cat and what kept me from buying one today. When I got to Cat.com and select "dealer" it gives me Carter Cat in Chesapeake, Va. Appx. 45 minutes from me. When I tell the guy today to work me some numbers so we can get the process started he asked where I am from. I tell him the Outer Banks of NC. He asks if I have an office in Va. Nope. Then he tells me he cannot sell me a machine. I must buy from Gregory Poole who is in Little Washington over two hours from me. This makes no sense whatsoever. I told him that would be a deal breaker for me. Regardless of difference in price I am not gonna buy from a dealer that far away. Service would be a nightmare. I do understand that Cat is trying to protect it's dealers, but they need to be more concerned with the customer. If I have a machine go down I need a tech there ASAP. Not one that is coming from over two hours away.

On a side note I got to see a 200K lb excavator up close and personal. Man what a machine! I would love to spend some time in that cab!!

[UNISCAPER]

Dealer distance is not an issue because when the machine needs service it will be in the field which could be farther away no matter where the dealer or your job is located. The only way service is a nightmare is typically in your head, and I had similar thoughts when our 257 lost a turbo. I thought here I am, machine to pay for, and now down...Cat was out within a few hours with a new machine to use while ours was being worked on and we had our machine back within a week. It turned out the oil test came back unfavorable, and when they could very well have just changed the turbo and given it back to me, they replaced an engine. At the time, we were working an hour and 45 minutes from the dealer. Thats why they have so many service trucks and techs, so they can keep you making the money you need to buy more machines. Many other manufacturers just don't seem to get that part of it. An engine to a 375 went down on the side of the road in Deusseldorf, Germany and Cat techs worked all night and had an engine in that machine the next moring by the time our operator was ready to start work. Cat has never let us down, no mattter where we are working, or where the dealer is. And, just because you have to buy from soemwhere,. does not mean they are the ones you go to for service. We were on Hiltonhead Island in '86 with a machine purchased from Patten tractors in Elmhurst Illinois. Had a track problem....Techs near Hiltonhead came out with one phone call.

The distance from service is the least of your worries.....

[AWJ Services]

That dealer does not properly represent what we should expect to recieve from Bobcat Dealers,


They were a Ingersol owned store.Not an independent.There resources are above and beyond what an independent dealer has.


One hand to operate the drive, one to operate the buck et

Bobcat offers it also at a 1500 buck option.
Takeuchi,ASV and Cat are all this way.

[Avery]

Well that makes me feel a little better. Still I hate being told which dealer I have to deal with. Just leaves a bad taste in my mouth....

[Avery]

They were a Ingersol owned store.Not an independent.There resources are above and beyond what an independent dealer has.




Bobcat offers it also at a 1500 buck option.
Takeuchi,ASV and Cat are all this way.

That is just one of the many things I do not like about Bobcat AWJ. I just do not think the Bobcat would be a productive machine for the money. I gave it ample opportunity to prove itself.

[Tigerotor77W]

That is just one of the many things I do not like about Bobcat AWJ. I just do not think the Bobcat would be a productive machine for the money. I gave it ample opportunity to prove itself.

Avery, sorry you feel that way. While I keep mum about Bobcat's offering in that size class, I do believe the T190 (indeed the entire Bobcat line) is an entirely fine machine, even if it was suspect to problems early on. As far as I know, those problems have been addressed. I read a thread somewhere -- now I can't find it -- that mentioned there was a technical issue that was corrected to make the T190 more responsive.

At any rate, hope your future experience -- with whomever it is -- goes better.

[Avery]

I really think something was wrong with the machine they gave me to try. Even though they would not admit it when I took it back. While working the machine there was a constant ear splitting whine from the hydros. Not normal as far as I am concerned. Salesman said it was some kind of line vibration. Yea right. The one I had came with a 4-in-1 bucket. It would not even open the bucket and move at the same time. If you tried the machine would come to a stop. It also stalled numerous times while loading the bucket from piles of sand. Nothing I could do to prevent it. The controls would pull themselves forward and the engine would stall. Very weird. I called the salesman about the problems the first day I had the machine. He promised to come down the next day and look at it but never did. When I took it back and told him about the problems he said "Why didn't you call me" I said I did. He said "Oh".

My experience with JD tractors has been excellent for years. If I cannot find a suitable skidsteer I will stick with them. I know what they are capable of.

[Scag48]

Multifunction capabilities seem to be a gripe. I remember I experienced the same thing last time I ran a Bobcat. But, that was a couple years ago and I was an inexperienced skid steer operator so it might have just been me, but I do remember the hydro whine being extremely bad. I find that absolutely horrible that you can't open a 4-in-1 bucket while travelling at the same time. With our 216 I can open the 4-in-1, roll the bucket out, and lift the boom at the same time while travelling. Of course the cycle slows down a little as compared to a single function being operated, that's alot of different directions to send fluid, but the machine performs so much smoother than the Bobcats I've operated.

[AWJ Services]

One thing about Bobcat Tracked machines also that is odd is the fact there HP rating is always low for there lift rating with Bobcats.
The T190 will lift a bunch of weight and once only had a 56 hp .
Also a Track machine has the ability to gain better traction and actually move more dirt when grading so one would think they would need more power than a wheeled machine.