need bigger excavator

[vntgrcr]

Hello All, I currently have a 2001 Bobcat 331 w/ hyd thumb. It seems as though I am already undergunned for the work that has come my way with this machine. I only bought it in Feb. but a contractor I am working for suggest that if I want more of his work, get a little bigger machine. I don't want to go as big as a CAT 307/312 out of the necessity of needing a bigger trailer/truck. Want to know what you guys think of Kubota/CAT 303,304's or other 8-12K LB machines. I need to do septic systems, general landscape construction etc. Would like to keep the 331, but don't know if I can swing $$ both. Thanks for any input.
David

[Tigerotor77W]

Bobcat will be coming out with a 444, it appears, which is another Schaeff-based excavator. Not sure of exact details, but:

http://www.pdworld.com/default_article.asp?categoryID=14&pageID=130
http://www.trader.pl/ds_doc,169567870,169563935,prezentacje.asp (not in English, but some pics)
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/tlmbobcat/Actives_html/Machines/Pelle_444.htm (French with specs in Metric units)

[Scag48]

I spent about 20 hours on a Cat 304.5, about a 10.5K machine. It was too big for our needs, but sounds like the ideal size for you. They no longer produce the machine as the 304CR has replaced it, but even as it was an older machine it was still a good performer and I would assume that the 304CR would be all of that machine and more being a couple years newer. I've heard Deere's new 50D is a nice machine, but I never got a chance to demo, the Deere dealer up here never returned my calls.

[wetnwild]

The KX121-3 is Kubota's popular machine. 4 ton. No CDL required.
They come with a thumb bracket and have a hydraulic angle blade and Auto Idle option too.

Norfolk Power Equip in Wrentham, MA has a couple available.

KX121-3 info (http://www.kubota.com/f/products/KX121-3.cfm)

As much as I like that machine, the money around me being spent on land clearing and septics is in bigger machines. Not Mini-X's.
-
-

[ksss]

My TB53 is a 12K machine. We pull it around with a 3500 or 5500 truck. We install septic systems with no problems. However we have to have the tanks set (which sucks) with a truck as we cannot lift some of them. Your situation was similiar to mine. I initially wanted a 18K machine and at times I wish I had gotten one. You may be needing to find a used 590-410 backhoe to pickup the slack your miniex can't handle. It would probably be the cheapest alternative. Depending on what your using to tow with may not have to upsize your vehicles to do it.

[playnindirt]

I would go with a 307 or similar size because u already have the 331, as far as needing a bigger trailer even if u go with a 10 or 12 thousand pound machine u will need a bigger trailer. A 331 seems very small to be doing septic work. I have a 312 and its a great size. Dont forget if you buy a 10 or 12K pound machine u still need a class a liscense to pull it. Any thing over 10K pounds requires a class a.

[grassmanvt]

Hello All, I currently have a 2001 Bobcat 331 w/ hyd thumb. It seems as though I am already undergunned for the work that has come my way with this machine. I only bought it in Feb. but a contractor I am working for suggest that if I want more of his work, get a little bigger machine. I don't want to go as big as a CAT 307/312 out of the necessity of needing a bigger trailer/truck. Want to know what you guys think of Kubota/CAT 303,304's or other 8-12K LB machines. I need to do septic systems, general landscape construction etc. Would like to keep the 331, but don't know if I can swing $$ both. Thanks for any input.
David

This is somewhat irrelavant but if you decide to upgrade and sell the 331 pm me, I'm always on the lookout for a latemodel mini.

[vntgrcr]

I would go with a 307 or similar size because u already have the 331, as far as needing a bigger trailer even if u go with a 10 or 12 thousand pound machine u will need a bigger trailer. A 331 seems very small to be doing septic work. I have a 312 and its a great size. Dont forget if you buy a 10 or 12K pound machine u still need a class a liscense to pull it. Any thing over 10K pounds requires a class a.
Playin',
You are right about the 331 being to small for septic. I have rented a 315 recently and that was the balls. A little big for the site I was on. I may bump up to a little larger machine for the general stuff for the time being and just rent the 315 when I need it until more work kicks in. I had forgotten about the over 10K LB restriction for towing, another obstacle to consider! It's always something. Thanks for everyone's help on this.
David

[Scag48]

I honestly think a 307 would be your best bet. If you have the desire to do larger jobs don't let the CDL get in your way, just go take the test and jump up to a bigger machine. If I was going to be doing alot of excavation work I wouldn't buy anything less than a 307 and a 312 is probably what I'd end up buying.

[C&KLawnCare]

Any thing over 10K pounds requires a class a.

Anything over GVW of 10,000 Lbs requires DOT Numbers
26,001 Lbs and above requires CDL's

[alldredge_2008]

I would look at a Kubota kx 121-3 or a 161-3. My cousin and my uncle do septic installs withe the Kubota 121-3. They seem to like it it is a very quite machine. I would also look at a Takeuchi excavator two, are you using a 24 inch bucket? I would also try a 3ft cleanup bucket two. That hydraulic thumb is also handy for any extra work you might do, its a little pricey but may come in hand. My boss that owns the Cat 226 just bought a Takeuchi TL 150 and is looking at a Takeuchi mini excavator. Well good luck and its good to see your are getting buisness.

[WolfordLawn]

26,001 Lbs is CDL not 10,000.

My 2500HD Grosses out at 22,000 Lbs and that is with a 15,000 pound 5'ver so I dont see how you would need a CDL to pull a 10,000 Lb piece of equipment.

[Krois Landscaping]

Any trailer with a GVW over 10k lbs you need a cdl, even if you're pulling it with an F250. If you have an F650 with a 26k lb gvw, you cannot legally tow any trailer without a Class A. If the trailer exceeds 10k lbs gvw or the Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Registered (truck and trailer) is over 26k lbs gvw.

So with a 15k lb trailer, if you ever get pulled over and the cop knows anything about CDL's, they'll have a field day with you.

I have my class A, went to school for all that.

[Green Pastures]

Any trailer with a GVW over 10k lbs you need a cdl, even if you're pulling it with an F250. .


Maybe in Conn. but not here in Virginia.

[grassmanvt]

krois landscaping is right, doesn't matter what state your in, those rules apply. But, those rules do not apply to recreational users, (like a large boat or r.v). Otherwise, any trailer with a capacity (doesn't even have to be loaded) of over 10k requires a class A, as well as the 26001 regs. These laws can be confusing though as everyone, including some of the dot/dmv guys all seem to have different opinions. They seem to be more concerned with nailing guys for being under registered around here though. I don't think they've been to strict about the 10k trailer issue.

[C&KLawnCare]

of over 10k requires a class A,

Like hell it does , Over 10,000 Lbs Requires DOT Numbers , Who ever is feeding people this line of **** that 10,000 and above requires CDL's should not even have a job.. CDL Requirments are nationwide . I ought to know i have had mine since 1993.

Who Needs a Commercial Driver License (CDL)?
You need a CDL if you operate any of the following vehicles.

All single vehicles with a manufacturer's weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more.
All trailers with a manufacturer's weight rating of 10,001 pounds or more, if the gross weight rating of the combined vehicle(s) is 26,001 pounds or higher.
All vehicles designed to transport 16 or more persons (including the driver). (Private, church, buses).
All vehicles that carry placarded amounts of hazardous materials (see following section on exemptions).
These vehicles are divided into three classes, A, B, and C. The higher class CDL allows you to drive vehicles in any of the lower classes provided you have the appropriate endorsements.

Occasional drivers are also required to apply for a CDL and all appropriate endorsements. For example: Mechanics or truck sales people who operate commercial vehicles on a public roadway.

In addition to a CDL, drivers may need special endorsements if they:

Drive vehicles carrying passengers, (buses);
Pull double or triple trailers (see following section on exemptions);
Drive tank vehicles (see following section on exemptions); or
Haul placarded hazardous materials (see following section on exemptions).
There are six special endorsements and one restriction for the CDL. All of these require specific tests. The following sections explain endorsements and restrictions.

CDL Endorsements

Passenger Endorsement is required for all drivers of vehicles designed to carry 16 or more persons including the driver.

Double/Triple Trailers Endorsement is required for drivers pulling sets of double or triple trailers.

Tank Vehicle Endorsement is required for drivers of vehicles carrying liquids or liquid gases in portable or fixed tanks. Not required for portable tanks with a rated capacity under one thousand gallons.

Hazardous Materials Endorsement (HME) is required for drivers of vehicles carrying hazardous materials that require the vehicle to be marked with a placard.

Beginning on May 31, 2005 new federal regulations pertaining to drivers with a HME require a background records check and fingerprinting to be conducted for the initial licensure, renewal or transfer of a HAZMAT endorsement. Fees are estimated at a cost of $100 to the driver.

CDL HME holders with a disqualifying condition are required to voluntarily surrender their HME under federal regulations. Only the HME is required to be surrendered, the driver's other commercial status remains unaffected.

For more information on these new federal regulations or disqualifying conditions please refer to the CDL Hazmat information on this website.

CDL Restrictions

All CDLs are issued with an airbrake restriction. In order to become authorized to operate an airbrake vehicle you must pass a written and skills test. The skills test must be conducted in a vehicle equipped with airbrakes.

CDL Exemptions

The law exempts three groups of drivers from the CDL:

Farmers transporting farm equipment, supplies, or products to or from a farm in a farm vehicle are exempted provided the farmer or a farm employee operates the vehicle. Products include Christmas trees or wood products transported by vehicles 40,000 pounds GVWR or less.
Fire-fighters/Law Enforcement Personnel operating emergency equipment are exempted provided they have completed the Emergency Vehicle Accident Prevention Program (EVAP) and they carry a card certifying completion.
Recreational Vehicle Operators are exempted when driving RV's for non-commercial purposes. This includes two axle rental trucks, and horse trailers for non-commercial purposes.


All trailers with a manufacturer's weight rating of 10,001 pounds or more, if the gross weight rating of the combined vehicle(s) is 26,001 pounds or higher.


STILL IT IS 26001 Lbs not no measley 10,000 Lbs

[C&KLawnCare]

. If the trailer exceeds 10k lbs gvw or the Gross Combined Vehicle Weight Registered (truck and trailer) is over 26k lbs gvw.


WRONG WRONG, As Posted above The NATIONWIDE CDL LAW SAYssssssssssssss Any trailer rated at 10,000 IF , That means His Truck, Trailer, Load on thatb trailer , HAS TO BE 26,001 LBS or over to require CDL's If he is weighing in at say 25,900 LBS and Has proper Registration On both truck and trailer and DOT Numbers , HE IS PEFECTLY LEGAL , And any cop that say's otherwise should be fired.

The law again so some may get it in their heads


All trailers with a manufacturer's weight rating of 10,001 pounds or more, if the gross weight rating of the combined vehicle(s) is 26,001 pounds or higher.

The KEY word is IF It is not no way no how OR

[REVPRO]

All trailers with a manufacturer's weight rating of 10,001 pounds or more, if the gross weight rating of the combined vehicle(s) is 26,001 pounds or higher.

WHERE DID YOU GET THIS INFORMATION FROM?

[grassmanvt]

looks like your right c+k, the law is a little wordy though so I can see how it is easily confused. I guess this means I can leaglly drive my one-ton with a 6ton trailer and a 10k excavator and be legal. Glad to know that. It does seem that the cdl and gvw laws are so widely interpreted that each dmv/dot guy you ask a question has a different answer to the same question.

[freddyc]

I don't know about WV, but, Massachusetts law is very clear. Look up their website if you choose.

If a trailer has a gvw of 10,000 lbs or more, you need a cdl. And thats true if you pull it with a semi or a tricycle.

You see a lot of trailers rated at 9990 lbs on the tag.

[Gravel Rat]

I know in this area Canada a person can get away with a class 3 (B) CDL so you can pull any trailer combination if trailer and tow vehical is on juice brakes it also covers anysize straight truck with any gvw ie tandem and bigger. We don't need a CDL to drive a single axle truck it can have max gvw of 35,000lbs some of the newer heavier singles have a 38,000lb gvw.

To pull a trailer behind a P/U truck that is heavier than 10,000lbs you need a endorsement on your license. Its a good idea it makes those old geezers that only have driven a car all their life preventing them from getting behind the wheel of a P/U with a monster fiver. It also prevents the people that don't have a clue on operating a truck from pulling a heavier trailer.

If you are going to be getting into excavators in the 161 Kubota size a F-550 or a medium duty will do the job start getting into the EX-60 Hitachi sized machines better get a single axle 5 ton with a 30,000lb plus gvw. You always want a decent sized truck so if your trailer brakes do decide to go Awall you have some chance of stopping.

I'am already seeing it this year all the tourist pulling their camp trailers the smell of super hot brakes is in the air you could cook your eggs on the brake drums on the trailer. I haven't seen any brake fires yet this year seen one last year on a 5 ton truck the flames shooting around the backing plate.

[Scag48]

I think everyone that tows any trailer, whether it be a utility trailer, equipment trailer, or even a boat or recreational camper, needs a CDL or at least some sort of endorsement stating that they've recieved training to be safe with whatever they're towing. I live in a town that thrives by the tourism industry and these idiots towing their boats have no clue how to handle what's behind them. Saw a Dodge Durango SUV last week towing a 25' Bayliner, probably at least an 8500 pound load with the trailer behind a vehicle maybe rated for 5-6,000 pounds. What a joke.

[C&KLawnCare]

I don't know about WV, but, Massachusetts law is very clear. Look up their website if you choose.



When do I need a Massachusetts CDL instead of my regular Massachusetts Drivers License?
A Massachusetts CDL is required if you operate any of the following CMV's . . .
1. A vehicle with a manufacturer's gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of more than 26,000 lbs

2. A vehicle towing a unit with a manufacturer's GVWR of more than 10,000 lbs. when the GCWR exceeds 26,000 lbs.

.___(Still both vechicles have be over 26,000 Lbs Freddy)
3. A vehicle used to . . .(a.) carry 15 or more passengers (excluding the driver), or (b.) carry (15) or less people (including the driver) when carrying children to or from school and home regularly for compensation.

[Emerscape]

hey david (vntgrcr)
where are u from in southeast mass. im working out of abington.

[ksss]

Skag that is my _itch as well. I have to stop at the roving DOT anal exam centers while an 80 yoa guy drives by in his diesel pusher pulling a car or boat or toy hauler. His driving experience: in the off season he drives a Toyota. Its not right, yet no one seems to get bent about it.

[UNISCAPER]

"Skag that is my _itch as well. I have to stop at the roving DOT anal exam centers while an 80 yoa guy drives by in his diesel pusher pulling a car or boat or toy hauler. His driving experience: in the off season he drives a Toyota. Its not right, yet no one seems to get bent about it."

My sentiments exactly. No different than all lawn ap fert and squirt companies who are required to be trained, certified, yada yada yada, and any homeowner can go to Ace Hardware or Home Cheapo and get the same stuff a licensed applicater uses and apply it with no training or license.

I have been driving heavy trucks for 15 years prior to the CDL idiocy comming into effect. The law was directed at over the road truckers who had multiple licenses in bunches of states who accumulated tickets they just never paid. So, as usual, a law passed intended soley for the collection of revenue while using the sheild of public safety to gain support. the funny thign is, 80% of all trucks on the road are running locals and not over the road....And, the test itself has numerous questions that have wrong answers written in. And, there is no training offered to the most dangerous part of trucking, off road trucking, such as with an end dump on a fill site. Or a trash truck in the landfill.

The reason they don't go after RV'ers is simply because that would effect too many voters and thus stur too much possible controversy which equates to gain or loss of percious votes....Pre programed job security. Though I absolutely detest CDL laws as written, I have no choice but to comply. Another law that creates jobs for state workers who would normally be unemployed with little to no benefits for those of us who pay the road use taxes on those trucks, and should by all means have the most say......

[TerraFirma Excavating]

I rented a Cat 304CR yesterday. It was the largest machine I could LEGALLY haul with my F-350 (20,000 GCVWR). I spoke with a friend of mine about DOT enforcement. He stated that they have really been cracking down on commercial vehicles. The have installed "scales in motion", scales built in to the roadway on almost all of the major roadways here in town. I don't know if somebody is continuously monitoring them or if they are set to alarm over a pre-set weight limit. The high tech tool which they are using now is an infrared viewer. They can sit on the side of the road and "scan" you when you drive by. They can see non-functioning brakes, low tire pressure, and even cracks in the vehicle/trailer frame. The cracks are visible because the frame is continuous flexing under a load, generating heat. The crack will show less heat on the infrared.

It's definately not worth bending or breaking the rules which would result in hefty fines. When I get a bigger truck and trailer, I'd like to get a 312 sized machine. I also want to stay with a small chassis (I think 15 ton or less) excavator because they are available with a factory installed backfill blade. You can add the backfill blade to the larger machines through aftermarket suppliers, but it gets pretty expensive.

[Scag48]

Wow, that's some pretty crazy stuff with that scanning business. How did you like the 304?

[dccarling]

Wow,

Alot of confusion about CDL requirements, you can pull a 12k or 14k trailer without a CDL if your total weight is less than 26,001 lbs. If your pick-up has a GVWR of 11,000 lbs. and the trailers GVWR is 14,000 lbs. that is 25,000 lbs. no CDL required. The 10,000 lbs comes into play for class A or B CDL, any combination vehicle over 26,001 lbs. requires a CDL, if the trailer is more than 10,000 lbs. you need the class A, 10,000 or less you can get by with the class B. You can pull a 8,000 lb. trailer with a 33,000 lb. GVWR truck with a class B CDL. I have a f-350 and pull a goose-neck with a GVWR of 25,900 lbs. so I need a CDL class A.

[Gravel Rat]

The DOT here has stuff like that but they usually pull P/Us over that are pulling equipement on trailers. The police in Canada mainly B.C. have the power to pull you over and check your weights etc some have portable scales in the trunk of the squad car.

The first thing they will check is the gvw on your trailer if its over 10,000lbs and greater they will ask to see what class of license you have. If you don't have a trailer endorsement you end up with a violation ticket and sometimes they will make you have a tow truck to come and get your trailer.

If you don't raise the the curiosity of the DOT usually you should be fine most mini excavators are really hard to tell how heavy they are by their size unless you are carrying a EX-60 Hitatchi on a trailer behind a P/U. The zero tail swing machines look pretty compact they look lighter than they are actually are.

[TerraFirma Excavating]

I like the 304CR, this is the second time I've used one. I seems a tad underpowered, but not too bad. The drive motor don't seem sized correctly because it bogs down when turning, even in low. For a less than 10,000# excavator it's great. This machine also has the thumb which was great for ripping out small trees and roots.

I was also running a John Deere 80C today. First time I've ran a machine this size. It was a decent sized machine with good dig depth (haven't looked up the exact specs). I was digging an 11' deep trench and the machine could reach back about 8'-10' at that depth. I was digging in pretty wet material, so I was probably overloading the machine while digging. It seemed a to lack a little breakout force on the boom, but like I said, I was digging wet, clumpy clay.

The JD 80C had air conditioning, but I opened the front window to see better. Does anyone used air conditioning and keep the front window closed? The tempered safety glass seems to darking things a bit and make seeing the bottom of the ditch a little difficult. I was thinking of purchasing my next machine with A/C, but it wouldn't be worth it if I end up keeping the window open to see better.

[TerraFirma Excavating]

I have a Class A CDL with all the endorsements other than bus driver. So even with the trailer over 10,0001#, I'm good. I was probably within 500# of being legal hauling the 304CR. My truck has a 20,000 CGVWR. The truck weighs about 7,500#, the trailer 2,000#, and the excavator is about 10,000# with the thumb and cab. Just under the wire.

I really like the Bobcat 337, but it weighs about 11,500# with a cab and a thumb. It would be close to legal on a 14,000# trailer, but then my truck would be over the CGVWR. If I went with a larger truck and trailer, I might as well get a 12 ton machine.

[TerraFirma Excavating]

I went out and ran the 304CR some more. The drive motors are working fine and have plenty of power, I was just unable to get that force to the ground. I notice that while trying to make turn on a very slight incline (I mean VERY slight), the track would lose traction and the machine would make the turn slowly. This was with the boom forward in a travelling position, but if I spun the boom over the spinning track I would get great traction. On flat ground, I could counter-rotate the tracks and turn continuously in a tight circle.

[Scag48]

If you end up buying a 312C, they come standard with Bi-Level A/C, no decisions to make :drinkup: On the other hand, Cat mini excavators are great machines. Our 303CR impresses me everytime I run it.