All the bids are in.....and for the results>>>> [Archive] - LawnSite.com™

KirbysLawn

07-24-2000, 04:37 PM

Well, here are the results of the bid survey. Please no bashing anyone on their bids. This will hopefully be a learning experience for each of us. I was really surprised we only had 17 people place bids, maybe we can do this again if you all think it's beneficial. All the bid numbers are monthly, I had to average the bids over 12 months: High Bid for maintenance: R. Martin $200.00 High bid for chemical apps: Columbiaplower $75.00 Higest overall bid:Columbiaplower $230.00 Lowest overall bid: Poplen $105.80Low bid for maintenance: Poplen $85.00 Low bid for chemical apps: Blacer $10.00Average bid for maintenance: $133.97 Average bid for chemical apps: $34.16Soil test average was: $28.33 Highest bid $45.00, lowest $10.00.Here is a link so you can see the spreadsheet with all the numbers: http://www.kirbycuttin.com/monthly_charges.htmInteresting, the lowest and highest overall monthly bid had a $124.20 difference each month. Hope you enjoy.Ray Edited by: KirbysLawn

jeffyr

07-24-2000, 05:41 PM

Kirby,Thanks for getting all this together...it was fun to look at. next time...if there is a next time, I think location would also be interesting to see.jeff

KirbysLawn

07-24-2000, 07:43 PM

I agree. I would be happy to do this again if there is interest. I'm also open to ideas.Ray

stslawncare

07-24-2000, 09:13 PM

hey, what exactly is a bid, what exactly is the process, etc. what i am thinking is like my grandparents had there bathroom redone at the farm, he called 5 different contractors and they came then mailed something in the mail, you choose the cheapest? ---------- Scottie Schmidt STS Lawn Care

KirbysLawn

07-24-2000, 09:24 PM

Scottie, what was your question? We were comparing bids to see what the range would be and I found it interesting. Yes, you can choose the cheapest service if you wish, I choose to look at price along with other things when getting a repair or service. Do you always choose the cheapest car, doctor, restaurant, furniture, and so on? Some times a little extra $$$ is worth it, others times it's not, you take the chance. Sometimes you get what you pay for, other time you get a deal. :)Ray

Lazer

07-24-2000, 09:25 PM

FYI, my bid was $30.00/week and was posted at $120.00/month, no so.$30.00/week will come out to $120 or $150.00/month depending on 4 or 5 cuts that month. I find it to AVERAGE 4.3 cuts/month. ($129.00 month)This little detail grosses me $70-75 AVERAGE more per customer per season x 200 customers = $14-$15,000 more.I'm not saying per cut is better than monthly, but it is important to understand you mow 5 weeks some months, not just 4.

1MajorTom

07-24-2000, 09:45 PM

Wow. Finally!Someone finally has mentioned that there are 5 weeks in some of the months. I could never understand the pay once a month thing. What about the extra cut? Is that figured into the monthly total? Are you guys still making a decent profit on the 5 week months?I know we certainly don't do monthly billings.Example: Today we did three $50.00 lawns, and one apartment complex. We bill for each cutting. So some months we get the extra cut in, and make more, which is nice!And it's nice getting paid all month long. Anyway, it works well for us. Jodi

KirbysLawn

07-24-2000, 09:48 PM

Lazer, I know you bid $30.00 a week, to make it simple I just did it as 4 mowings a month, sorry it wasn't perfect. I had several emails that had "if this, I would charge that" and so on. I did the simplest calculations based on a monthly billing plan and I stated that in my post.How much do you make in the "off" season for each lawn you normally mow but are no longer mowing? I do bill monthly over 12 months, even with 3-4 months off season so my income does not change.Jodi, same question...I get paid year round, if you bill per mow, once grass quits growing what do you do about $$. I know snow or something, but here and in many areas, after the leaves stop we ahve little or no snow and nothing else. If we did not bill monthly we would be out of business. If any of you wish to make your own spreadsheets and do the numbers and post them please do so, they are at the link above, have at it.Thanks,Ray Edited by: KirbysLawn

thelawnguy

07-24-2000, 10:01 PM

Lazer is right, you are screwing yourself if, when billing monthly, you dont take into consideration there are 52, not 48 months in a year. I always take the weekly figure, multiply by 52 then divide the product by 12 to arrive at an accurate monthly total."but here and in many areas, after the leaves stop we ahve little or no snow and nothing else. If we did not bill monthly we would be out of business."Correction, you would have to learn how to budget your money. Then you would be able to survive. If you mow for, say, 10 months you dont actually get paid for 12, you just spread it out and take a little less every month.I bill for the work I do and get paid for it, no more no less. (Snow removal is different; for simplicitys sake lets stick with lawn care for this discussion.) A little financial discipline, and if theres no work for a couple months the money is there earning interest for me until I need to take some out, not sitting in my customers pocket waiting for me to stamp an envelope and drive to the post office with their bill for work I did two months prior.Bill Edited by: thelawnguy

little green guy

07-24-2000, 10:11 PM

I think that was an exelent idea and we should definitly do it agian. I think for the people that participated it helped to see where you stand with prices and how you can agjust them. Like for the lowest bidders now they know that they bid low and they can bring up there prices. I don't know if anybody understood what i just said but whatever. Way to go Kirby!!! :-)

1MajorTom

07-24-2000, 10:56 PM

Ok, let me see if I can get this straight. You service an account say for $145.00 a month. (We'll use that as an example.) For one year that's $1740.00. That's 52 weeks. Now granted, you don't go there every single week once the weather changes. At least I hope you don't.Not sure how often you are servicing your accounts (cutting the grass), but around here we started March 15th, and we are assuming that we will work each week until November 15th. ( I think that's 36 weeks, give or take a week..lol). Ok so say we bid a job out at $50.00. Today we had two $50.00 jobs that took 45 minutes each, and one $50.00 job that took 1 hour. For 36 weeks, that's $1800.00 an account. That's cut, trimmed, and sidewalks and driveways blown. Sorry guys, no stick edging, but that's a WHOLE different story I could get into.When November comes, all leave clean-ups and gutter cleanings are extra. Snow removal is extra. Aeration is extra whether it is done in the spring or fall.And then we are done. No hassles. No worries about servicing the customer in December, January, and February unless they call for something they would like done. (Like snow removal)We made $1800.00 plus any extras they want in 36 weeks.If I were to offer a monthly contract for the year around here, I would be laughed off the property. There's nothing to do here for those 3 months. So I prefer to make my money while I can in the summer months. Now, back to your $145.00 a month account. For the grass cutting season, that's $36.25 a cut for the 4 week month. That's $29.00 a cut for the 5 week month. And in the winter months (Dec, Jan, Feb), that's $72.50 a cut or whatever is done for the twice a month call).Why not just raise the price to $45.00 a cut in the cutting months. (36 weeks that would be $1620.00, and add all additional services that you do). Fertilize, leaf clean-ups, whatever.And what about your time, gasoline, and extra miles you put out in the winter months? Are you adding that into the mix?It just seems more profitable to me to bid by the cut.I apologize if I got this whole thing wrong. Like I said, yearly accounts are not what we do, so I'm not quite sure how you guys handle them.For us, it works by the cut. One final note: I do see how the yearly contract would work if there was a drought. I assume you don't cut when the grass is burnt and dried out, and you'd still be getting paid.This year we are busier than all heck. Turned down work. Last year was a different story. We had to take on a lot of extra one time jobs like hedges, mulching, and hillside clean-ups to make up for the lack of rain. Thank goodness this year is totally different. Jodi

BRL

07-25-2000, 12:05 AM

Jodi & Lazer, I believe in Ray's specifications he said the job would be 34 cuts for the season to clarify all of these questions and so everyone could bid for the same thing. For all of the "per cut" contractors and the points you are raising: the idea is to make your income even, like having a real job where you have a salary of $Whatever per month. So we take Jodi's example of $1800.00 for a year of cutting(36x) and make it a monthly payment of $150.00. This is still covering that extra cut every other month or so, you're just spreading the payments for the same work over the whole year. From a customer stand point this is a great idea. Then they know that with thier $Whatever month salary they will be spending $150.00month for their lawn plus extras. Helps your customer budget & helps you budget for the year. I add the most common extras into the monthly billing to make the whole process easier. Let's say the example property will be getting a 5 step fert. program @ $35.00each and a spring leaf cleanup to start the season at $150.00 and 3 leaf clean ups in the fall at $150.00 each. Now you charge the customer the $1,800.00 plus the extra $775.00 and get a monthly payment of $214.58. If I have 10 of those customers I know I'm taking in $2145.80month & I can budget my business better. Hopefully this helps with the concept. Nobody is losing that 5th cut of the month by billing monthly, as long as they're doing it right. PS: I was preparing for my daughter's christening on Sunday so I didn't have time to bid, but I'll definitely participate in the next one. Great idea Ray!

KirbysLawn

07-25-2000, 12:26 AM

Jodi, you are correct, I do not mow every 7 day during drought, I convert to a 10-12 day schedule, mow 3 times a month and my pay stays the same. I do bill monthly and will continue to do so. Billing $45.00 for a lawn that takes 20-25 minutes would fail around here and WE would be laughed off the property. The numbers in your post are correct but the difference is only $60.00, and I know $60.00 x 200 yards is $12,000.00 per year, but you would not have 200 lawns charging $45.00 for a 20-30 minute cut! I did not do this survey to get in these debates, each area has their own billing issues. If I do this again I will not average it on a yearly basis and I'm sorry this is such and issue for some of you. TheLawnGuy, I quote: "Lazer is right, you are screwing yourself if, when billing monthly, you don't take into consideration there are 52, not 48 months (weeks) in a year. I always take the weekly figure, multiply by 52 then divide the product by 12 to arrive at an accurate monthly total."Ok, $30.00 per mow x 52 weeks =$1560.00. Divide that by 12 = $130.00 per month. Ok, do you bill monthly or by the mow? Monthly =$130.00, by the mow for 34 mows = @ $45.88 per cut ($183.52 a month on 4 week months & $229.40 on 5 week months!). I guess it depends on which is the easiest too sell to a homeowner.I also did not receive any bids from several of you that are now debating this issue with me now, I hope you participate in the bidding next time and we will see where you stand.Thanks Little Green Guy, BRL, & Jeff for the + comments. Also thanks to Little Green Guy, TheLawnGuy, Jeff, & Lazer and the others for helping in the survey!Ray Edited by: KirbysLawn

1MajorTom

07-25-2000, 12:39 AM

I misunderstood Kirby's question. I thought he was asking me what I did for $$$'s in the winter months. I explained I make as much in 36 weeks as an average year-round account, without the hassles, gas expenses, and headaches.I didn't know this was a budget issue. I know how to budget my money, and prefer to get as much money as I can, when I can. Now, about the customer. I don't see any of my customers appreciating having to pay for a winter service. Heck, some of them are nit picky enough as it is. I could really see them in the winter months. They would forget about all the work done in the summer months, and they wouldn't be able to understand what they were paying for in the winter. "Do this, do that. What?? You're leaving here already??? I'm paying you $145.00 in January for you to come here and leave in 30 minutes?"Nah, wouldn't work here. I'll take my per cuts any day. Plus I like saving on gas in the winter. Jodi

1MajorTom

07-25-2000, 01:16 AM

Ok, sorry there Kirby. Didn't see your response until after I posted that last post.This will be my last comment on this subject. I'm not usually so conversational. lolFirst off, I feel like you are taking this personally or something. I'm not out to attack you. You wanted bids which led me to believe that you were open to all or new ideas.I did not bid because quite frankly, I think it is a dumb idea. Yep, that's what I said. What exactly does posting a bunch of bids accomplish? What do you learn from it? I'm in a different area. So my bid would be according to what my customers would pay. You can only charge what the market can bear. So if I bid $50.00 a month or $250.00 a month, so what? Plus, I don't know about anyone else, but how can you just look at a picture and bid on it. Does anyone else 'read' their customers??? By that I mean, can't you go on an estimate and sometimes know right from the start that the customer is going to be a pain the butt??? I know I sure can. And even if I want that property because it is going to be 'gravy', if that customer is a pain, then the price is made higher. I also need to walk a property to get a feel for it. That would be like giving an estimate over the phone. Does anyone do that? I know we don't. See, all this time I kept telling Matt, "Gee, I wish we could have yearly accounts around here." And Matt would say, "Come on Jodi, you know no one around here would fall for that." And I would say, "But look at all the money we could make. I wish we could move to a year round account climate."Never once really sitting down and doing the math. So when your bid post came up, I actually did the math. And I was astonished. All that time I was wishing for something that would be worse for us. I guess that's why I chose to post. Not to 'debate' with you. Heck, I was just wondering if I was the only one out there that didn't see the need for yearly accounts. Like I said, the only advantage I can see with a yearly account is if there is a drought. If there is, then we need to take on extra jobs to compensate. But if it is a year like this year, then I think we come out ahead. I like being lazy all winter long...lolJodi

BRL

07-25-2000, 07:26 AM

I forgot one more important reason for billing by the month. Saving time. I don't have someone working in the office so I do my own paperwork. If I had Lazer's 200 customers I would rather do 200 invoices once a month and receive 200 checks than do 800 invoices & receive 800 checks during the 4 cut month, or even worse, 1,000 invoices & receive 1,000 checks during the 5 cut month.:) Jodi, I'm not saying that you visit those properties during the winter. All I'm saying is you take the same $1800.00 from your example (which is $225.00month during your 8 month season from March 15 - November 15) and spreading the same money over the entire year at $150.00month. Some accounts we do visit during the winter because leaves & branches never stop falling, but that is factored into the price, they're paying for it. I never thought this would fly with my customers either but I tried it & was surprised to find that a lot of them liked the idea. More of the commercial accounts than residential. If you can't get year round, one could bill monthly for the 8 month season, at least for the reason I mentioned at the beginning. ($225.00month using Jodi's example) Edited by: BRL

Lazer

07-25-2000, 09:03 AM

1.) Bills are sent once a month for maintenance accounts - even though the price is per cut.2.) For bid comparison purposes, you need to have an ANNUAL contract (like most of my commercial contracts) which states how many visits of each service per season.I've been screwed out of jobs before because somebody incorrectly manipulated my numbers and I bristled at the thought of it happening again.

KirbysLawn

07-25-2000, 11:29 AM

Jodi, I came up with this dumb idea after noticing in another post some people said they would charge $22.00-$25.00 per cut for a lawn that was larger that the one in this discussion. I still do not understand why professionals are charging less than neighborhood kids to mow a lawn just because we mow faster. Jodi, you have a lawn at home and are seeking service, here's my sales pitch:1) I will mow your lawn for $50.00 a visit. Most months your bill will be $200.00 a month and a few months it will be $250.00 a month.2) I will mow your lawn for $141.66 per month and bill 12 months a year. Your bill remains the same year round.Now for the monthly v/s per cut issue: $50.00 x 34 mowings=$1700.00 and 34 stamps/invoices/envelopes, monthly $141.66 x 12 months =$1700.00 and 12 stamps/envelopes/invoices. Now please explain how we are screwing ourselves? What is so astonishing about this? Where are the big losses? Yes, I would spend a little more on fuel driving to the lawn twice a month to visit but I would do that anyway. I think it's better to have your customers see you, even during off season, that way they don't forget you and go with the next guy the following spring. I prefer not to leave a property I maintain unattended or 3-4 months at a time. I am not taking this personal, I just find it amazing and frustrating that you and TheLawnGuy comment about how we are cheating ourselves and how "astonishing" the difference is when I see $1700.00 a year the same, if it's paid in 8 or 12 months, it's still $1700.00. I think you both fail to realize we are not charging for 52 v/s 48 mowings, it's 34 mowings paid over a year. We all understand there are 5 weeks in some months, we are talking about 34 mowings, we take that divide by 12 and charge that per month, it then does not matter if one month has 5 or 4 weeks, at the end of the year the pay is the same.Lazer I agree and that's the way I bill, so you are telling me after starting this per cut debate you also charge by the month? As BRL noted, I also prefer to send out one invoice a month v/s multiple invoices or trying to track down a customer who may not be home.Thanks for the comments,Ray

lawrence stone

07-25-2000, 11:54 AM

Kirby provides service to a residential account for $1700 year round.He picks up some pine cones in the winter.Stone provides service to a residential account for 8 months for $1700.He sails his boat in SW Fla. for a couple of months in the winter.Get the picture now Kirby?

BRL

07-25-2000, 12:16 PM

With Lazer's system the monthly bill will vary and I have a few customers that I bill like that also. The sample bid that Kirby's proposed did specifically say it would be 34 cuts per year and its obvious that we all have different ways of billing that out. The important thing to remember here is that we ultimately have to bill in a way that is convenient for our customers. I have customers that I bill using every one of the ideas presented on this thread, even though its a slight pain that way (because each customer is different). However, for the good reasons mentioned earlier, any new customer that I get I push for the year round or at least 1 monthly price for our 8 month season. As long as we're all getting paid for our work, use the system that works best for you.

Lazer

07-25-2000, 12:30 PM

The bid specifications changed during the bidding, skewing the numbers.Time for a new property and consistant bid specifications. Let's throw in an aeration, mulch, pruning and maybe sprinkler service, too.

jeffyr

07-25-2000, 01:30 PM

What do you guys that figure out the season, and divide by 12 for a consistant monthly bill do when the customer need additional service. Could be anything from an unplanned fungicide application or mulch where they didn't want it ? If you charge additional money, do you then divide that up by the number of months left in the year ? or does this never happen. and if it does, are you not doing the same thing that all of the pay by the cut (or service) visit are doing ?

Parrot

07-25-2000, 02:29 PM

Kirby, This bid comparison is nowhere near accurate. You specified 34 cuts per year, but yet when somebody bid by the cut, you multiplied it by 4 per month for 12 months, thats 48. Some of you are even arguing it should be 52. It makes no sense. Yes I understand dividing a years work into equal payments, but not charging for every week. I see bids of 160 and 200 per month on the spreadsheet, and i'm sure they meant 40 or 50 per cut, not 56.47 or 70.59 per cut, as the math comes out. My bid was for 1360 per year, which was 40 per cut. If I had bid 40 per cut instead of a yearly bid, the spreadsheet would say my bid was 160 per month instead of the 113.33 that it says now. Next time be a little more specific in what kind of bid you want. I think everybody was in the 30-50 dollar range, but you wouldn't know it by looking at the spreadsheet. Either state the number of cuts for a yearly bid, or the number of cuts per month for a monthly bid, or just bid the damn thing by the cut. This way at least your spreadsheet will be comparable for everyone.

KirbysLawn

07-25-2000, 05:22 PM

Yea Stone, whatever.

cutntrim

07-25-2000, 07:47 PM

Wow boys, this 'aint complicated. I gave up reading all the convoluted responses after the first three or so. Up here the season for us is 28 weeks (cutting) so for example we take $30/cut x 28 weeks = $840 and divide it into monthly payments. If you want 6 months that's $140/month , 7 months would be $120. Our customers pay us with post-dated checks - no exceptions. This way we bill 'em once at the start of the year and that's it. If they want fertilizing then take that total and divide it by 6 or 7 months and add it to the cutting total. Aeration? Spring & Fall Cleanups? Weeding of beds? etc... Same thing, add it all up and divide by the number of months you want to spread it out by. For a "full service" account it's 8 monthly payments for us (April-November). Snow plowing payments are December-March.---------- Dave in S.Ontario www.cutntrim.com

Charles

07-25-2000, 07:58 PM

Now I got a convoluted headache

cutntrim

07-25-2000, 08:08 PM

LOL. O.K. I ended up making it sound over-complicated too, must be a disease we all share.So...multiply your per-cut price x the number of weeks in your area's season, then add the cost of additional services and divide the total into equal monthly payments. There, much simpler explanation.---------- Dave in S.Ontario www.cutntrim.com

richard2

07-25-2000, 08:35 PM

richard bills year round, then in the off season all 2 months in the northwest he goes to pebble beach for 3 weeks, comes back makes rounds...gets looks because he is tan, after rounds he goes to mexico for 3 weeks, comes back makes rounds....looks even tanner...then goes to phoenix for 2 weeks...comes back makes rounds looks lean and brown...then gets power reel sharpened, applys iron and off we go...checks come in even when i'm away! if by chance seattle gets snow, i have to come back after the roads open to log up down trees (if you've never been up here you have never seen trees) runs chipper charges extra on heavy damage returns to vacation spot so as not to loose tan..washington will suck out any color from your skin in days! both billing positions have advantages..

GroundKprs

07-25-2000, 08:43 PM

Took you long enough to reply, Charles! :) Would you like a 12-month, 8-month, weekly or per-cut brand of aspirin?---------- Jim North central Indiana

Dale

07-25-2000, 08:49 PM

I don't freaking believe all this crap. I should not comment, because I did not bid. But I will because this is one of the most basic problems with this business. Most people in this business have no idea of their cost of doing business, have no concept of return on investment, and sure as hell make life and business on the west coast attractive.My full service maintenance bid for that property would have been at least $ 350 per month, 12 months a year with reduced service levels in Dec, Jan and Feb. Labor and equipment is 50% of your costs, with materials being 5 %, and overhead and G & A taking 30% and hopefully at least 15% net to the owner after at least a 40 - 100k salary depending on volumes. Get the labor right and you get the bid right. You all are so damn worried about getting your price down so damn low so you can get the job, so you can add it to your portfolio of low margin accounts. Why not worry about being more labor efficent, coming up with a PROFITABLE and consistent pricing process, reinvesting profits in the business for increase efficency, and other basic financial parameters of this business.Set a pricing process that covers expenses, and returns a profit level above what surfing the net with equally high risk technology stocks, ( maybe above 15% clones ???). Damn, you guys need to spend more time working on your business strategy's than bidding yourself in to Chapter 7.

little green guy

07-25-2000, 09:10 PM

I can't read anymore!!!I stopped after the first 10 post and the only other one i read was cutntrims and i agree with everything he said.oh yah does anyone know what the max amount of advil tablits your allowed to take at one time is??thanks

KirbysLawn

07-25-2000, 09:56 PM

PARROT, you are correct and I goofed on the calculations on that part. Sorry, I had some say $1300.00 per year, others $35.00 per mow, and others 145.00 per month. I tried to make an average per month year round. I am correcting and putting what the bids were per month.Richard, I agree with the check coming in year round.Stone, you would not be making $1700.00 for a 5000 sf lawn, you said you charge $22.00-$25.00 for a 8000 sf lawn. I would guess your bid would be $22.00 (or less) x 34, mowing = $748.00. So I guess the correct statement would be Ray makes $1700.00 for this lawn and Stone makes $748.00 while sailing in Florida.Anyway, I will post the correct and very basic numbers soon, I was in a rush and should have spent a little more time making it clearer as Lazer and Parrot pointed out.Thanks Edited by: KirbysLawn

accuratelawn

07-25-2000, 10:09 PM

I see the advantages to the yearly paying accounts, but what is wrong with receiving your money from March - Nov. By budgeting and investing for funds, you should be able to operate your business without any problems. Our first application comes at the end of February, mowing from End March until mid November and Leaves in November and December. Damm near year round. I just find it easier to bill as you go, add ons easier to charge for.

KirbysLawn

07-25-2000, 10:17 PM

accuratelawn, I don't think there is anything wrong with charging by the cut or whatever if that's what you choose. I prefer not to keep up with who was home, who missed last week, and so on. My main issue is some seem to think you make more by charging per cut and that because others bill monthly we are losing our shirts, not so.Boy, my head is hurting too.

paul

07-25-2000, 10:26 PM

It's kind of funny, I read most posts here(I don't do mowing)or maintanice unless in in the the Spec. sheet that I bid on for installs. To me it seems that bids comming from all over North America and Down Under, shows how pricing differs! But even we have price changes depending where we work, If we are doing work in the suburbs pricing is lower than working in the city(Chicago). For example we recently priced and got a job for planting 7 5" trees in downtown Chicago, the total job price is $37K ( this includles the trees, removing the existing soil, new planting soil and tree grates) total out of pocket expense $5K. One year ago we planted 50 trees in a suburb of Chicago 50 3" trees total project $30K, same work but much closer to our yard, total out of pocket expense was $14K. We made good money on that job ( done in three days, Three men, 9 man days). Pricing is going to be different, every job is different, and not one set of prices will work for every job, your cost per man hr is going to be different than my cost, what you do per hr is different than what I do. ---------- paulEdited by: paul

thelawnguy

07-25-2000, 10:40 PM

"Now for the monthly v/s per cut issue: $50.00 x 34 mowings=$1700.00 and 34 stamps/invoices/envelopes, monthly $141.66 x 12 months =$1700.00 and 12 stamps/envelopes/invoices. Now please explain how we are screwing ourselves? "Youre mixing apples and oranges. I charge per cut, and bill monthly-one bill per customer per month, whether I mowed it 1 time or 10. I understood your method to be, take a total of all cuts per season and average it over a 12 month period, even months where no work was performed."1) I will mow your lawn for $50.00 a visit." STOP. This is all the info I tell the customer. Let them do the math. No need to project the bills for them.Bill the way you want, Im just trying to show how billing for what you do is better. No arguments about how many cuts were actually performed vs. projected. And no picking up pine cones while the other guys are sipping drinks with Stone :)Bill

KirbysLawn

07-25-2000, 11:23 PM

Bill, I understand you invoice once each month for the service you perform, and I also let my customers do the math, I did that to illustrate. I do not have arguments with my customers about how many times I've mowed. I give them a monthly price for up to 34 mowings and receive 12 checks for that service. Additional services or mowings that were not agreed on are charged extra. Around here most people are more willing to pay (for example) $140.00 per month for 12 months instead of $200-$250 a month for 8 or 9 months. I have no issue with how you bid, my issue was comments on how we are screwing ourselves, haven't seen proof yet and at this point don't really care.Again, I do not care how you bill as long as it works. I choose to visit a lawn I maintain twice a month during off season to make sure it still looks good, it's not part of my agreement I just do it. I live in a climate that has little snow (no work there) and cold enough temps that everything quits growing. If I stop and spend a few minutes out of a month at a property making sure it looks good then people notice, and maybe that's what will separate me from the others, who knows? I have plenty of time off, that's not a problem I'm just trying to figure out what to do with all these pinecones! Let's give this a rest, it's going nowhere. As stated above different area have different needs.Thanks,rayDale, I didn't say you couldn't post if you didn't bid, I just wish more would have bid (and I did the numbers correct) the first time. I asked for a bid for 34 mowings and a second bid for a years worth of chemical apps, I got several bids such as yours that were all enclusive and it made it difficult to convert. I will try to do better if I do this again, not sure. I do think a market survey is a good idea, just need to refine things a little. :)Edited by: KirbysLawn

jaclawn

07-26-2000, 06:34 AM

Situation #1. Customer calls Kirby in April wanting lawn service. She wants the whole 9 yards, fert, areation, lawn mowing, mulch... Kirby figures out a total for the season for the work, then divides into 12 payments. In the spring and summer, Kirby has higher money outlays for material, labor, equipment, because he is performing more work at that time of year. Kirby peforms all the expensive work, getting paid his monthly fee. What happens if an unscroupolus customer decides that in November, they no longer want you to provide lawn service? Try collecting the remaining payments. What if it is not the customers fault, what if he is forced to move, dies??? You did all that work, and cheated yourself out of that money. Another point, why let the customer make interest off your money? Seems that they are holding the cards, holding on to their money, making interest on it, when YOU could be the one making the interest on it in the bank, market... On one account it may not add up to that much, but add up all those accounts...Situation #2. Prospective customer calls Kirby in October, wanting lawn service. Kirby figures his monthly price, and tells the prospective customer that they will have to pay OCT, NOV, DEC, JAN, FEB, MAR... I am not 100% sure where your season starts and ends, but I would have a hard time believing that a prospective customer that signs on in OCT, would be willing to pay through the winter, when they are not recieving the same amount of service. I do as thelawnguy does, bill for each and every service performed, after it is done. I send out invoices once per month, and therefore don't give the customer much of a chance to bail on me. I just think that your situation gives the customer too much of a chance to screw you. You are letting them hold too many cards. You are investing too much in the season, and giving them the oppertunity to get out before you collect ALL your money, not to mention the fact that you are basically giving them an intrest free loan.A long time business man once told me that if someone ever offers you money, take it. You never know if it will be there later. BTW- Don't get me wrong, yearly contracts can be a good thing in certian situations. If you are in a year round work situation, be it in a warm climate, or performing snow or other services, it can be a great way to balance your income, however, if you are only doing minimal work for these people in the off season, you are only cheating yourself. If you can learn to budget your money, you will be further ahead of the game by billing for services as performed. I think that where a lot of people get in trouble is in budgeting. Sure, you may have $10,000 in the checking account, but you can't spend it, you have taxes to pay, suppliers to pay, saving for the off season... I think that a lot of guys see those large account balances, and since it is there, they spend it. They need stricter budgeting.

MOW ED

07-26-2000, 07:05 AM

Ray, Put another one up and make it a little more complicated. This is fun on a rainy day, and I really am learning. Got to go, I'm printing my monthly invoices.

KirbysLawn

07-26-2000, 02:05 PM

Ed, more complicated? You've got to be kidding! I know what you mean. :)jaclawn, situation # 1 is possible, but hasn't happened yet. BUT, I do not add aeration, mulch, and other items in the bid they are billed separate at the time of service, just mowing (edging,trimming,blowing) and fert. I would not be doing "all that work" without being paid. Look, at $120.00 a month mowing 4 times = $30.00 a mow, and 5 times =$24.00, that's still at or above what some would bid, what losses?Situation # 2 has not been a problem either. I wish you guys would understand, I get what your saying. The lawn in this bid takes me about 25 minutes from arrival to departure and I bill $120.00 a month for mowing. $120.00 x 12 months = $1440.00 OR $42.35 a mow. If I go and place a bid saying I will mow your lawn for $42.00 a week it will not work around here, especially with services that bid $22.00-$25.00 like TheLawnGuy, Stone, or others. When they would finish the mowing season at those prices they would have between $748-$850 for mowing this lawn 34 times, while I have $1440.00, a difference of between $590-$692 a year. Yes, it takes me 3 months more to get the money but that's also extra money, money some would not have, what is going to pay me an interest rate that high? Stone, that's $230.00 a month to stop by a few minutes a month and "pick up pinecones" and make sure the property I maintain is in good order.Heck, that's what started this whole debate I bid on a lawn LARGER than this one, and other companies were bidding $90.00 a month! Around here most lawn companies bid per month, year-round, it ends up being more per cut over the year, they don't seem to mind and its extra $$ for me.Ray Edited by: KirbysLawn

Scraper

07-26-2000, 03:10 PM

Kirby, Wish I could find suckers like you can! You're charging them for mowing when you aren't even mowing? Your principle may make sense in your mind, but not in the mind of most customers. When I first read your post about yearly billing, I thought you'd break down the 34 cuttings and spread over 12 months. Your last post states you're charging for 4 cuts a month for 12 months for a total of 48? Am I getting this right? You're math shows it that way. I wish there were suckers up here in PA like you have down there in NC then we both could get richer faster! :) Don't the people get it that if the other service is charging $25/cut that they would be only paying close to $900/yr as opposed to your $1440? Sorry, but I just don't get how you can pull it off.

Charles

07-26-2000, 03:58 PM

Charles<----now putting 357 to his head to let out some of this "important" information BOOM!!! Missed---dammit

thelawnguy

07-26-2000, 04:03 PM

"...and I bill $120.00 a month for mowing. $120.00 x12 months = $1440.00 OR $42.35 a mow."Y'know, you remind me of the guy a few months back who asked for bids on a dirt pile job then got ticked off when he kept changing the specs and got called on the carpet for it. You are NOT getting 42 a mow, you are getting 30 a mow and 30 during the off season to give the lawns a hiyawatha. I agree with scraper too bad there arent fish like that up here in connecticut. But on the other hand, if we tried a scam like that word would get around so fast, that 4 door pickup would soon have a light bar on the roof and a D.A.R.E. decal on the doors ;)Bill

Charles

07-26-2000, 04:20 PM

Maybe if I move the 357 to degrees to the right and divide by 12 and account for the long months then grease the cylinder and squeeze the trigger at a slower pace and not duckbecauseiamachicken........

BRL

07-26-2000, 06:36 PM

Charles, thanks for my LOL of the day!

Dale

07-26-2000, 09:48 PM

Ray,I just didn't want to mouth off without putting my bid in. Some guys make it way to complicated. Not a thing wrong with getting paid all year long for full service or mowing, it really does not matter.I think you made it quite clear in the beginning. Thats the probelm with billing by the service. All our inclusive services have a specific or mininmum number of services. We do not blanket apply chemicals. We utilize an IPM approach. I want consistent cash flow in Dec Jan as May and June. I never lose money on maintenance,just make a little less profit in summer and a hell of a lot more in winter. Keeps the key personell and lease payments made.jaclawn,we track every minute and supply that goes in to an account. If the accounts cancel before we recover costs and profit on that portion of the job, it is written right in to the contract,that they will pay for all services to date. So the March start up that tries to cancel in October is still going to pay for every freaking hour we were there when they cancel. We expalain that right up front, and have them intinal the paragraph. Have not had a problem with that in 3 years.Publish a set of specification and have them bid off that. Can't get much simpler.

Parrot

07-26-2000, 10:30 PM

KirbysLawn

07-27-2000, 12:00 AM

Dale and Charles, I agree with your comments!Bill, your right. I will convert to billing by the cut, and I will start my letter now.Dear Mr. Bill, Starting next month I will stop billing you on a monthly basis and will charge you on a visit-by-visit basis and invoice you at the end of the month. I will be charging you $30.00 per visit for the mowing services, any additional service will be billed as usual.Please call me if you have any questions or concerns.Best regards,Ray KirbyNow maybe I can join you and Stone in Florida and go sailing and have a drink! Man I'm excited about all this extra time I will have and no more pinecones, woohoo!Oh no, wait a minute......I just cost myself over $22,000 in lost revenues! I guess I will try mowing over 26 more lawns at $25.00 to make up the difference, darn I won't be able to make it to Fla., I'll be dead! But hey, I won't be getting screwed, right?Serious guys, I usually sell my services as a package, mowing and fert, I figure my mowing and fert charges and give them the bid. It works fine for me, but again, I do it as a package $120 for the mowing and $15.00 for the fert for this example. I have monthly customers ranging from $130.00-$300.00 that pay 12 months a year for the package. I have yet to have anyone show me where I'm getting screwed as stated earlier in this post, and that was what this discussion escalated from.Try this, next time you go to a lawn to bid and you really don't want it, bid $whatever per month, year round. If the take it you have a deal, if not you've lost nothing! I do have a few pay by the mow lawns, they are my least profitable lawns. Maybe its like the Rent-A-Center, people pay more in the long run, but they like the lower payments??That's it for me, I've had enough of this subject. Thanks for the post, now where's my HK? :)Ray

Toroguy

07-28-2000, 12:57 AM

little green guy, I would not exceed 1000mg of ibuprofin at a time. I was recently stung by a hornet, had a reaction and took to many antihistamines, and had quite a buzz (no pun intended) going.As for this convoluted thread...bill and price as you please. Kirby was just sharing his information.

goose

07-28-2000, 11:17 PM

Go back and read Dales post and he hit the nail on the head. We do about $20,000 a month all 12 months. We could bill for just 8 months and make $30,000a month but you have got to have cash flow all year. Not everyone is disciplined to put money back for a rainy day. Where I am located we dont have snow to fall back on so we go to our properties all year long.You might can get by during the winter but your employees cant and to keep them you have got to pay them .Also during the year if someone wants something else , like mulch we bill them extra. We usually figure into the price mulching twice a year . Everyone is in different climates , we are lucky to be able to go all year.

thelawnguy

07-28-2000, 11:20 PM

I agree, year round billing doesnt work where I am, where the grass is usually snow-covered for 3 months, but in places where there is usually no snow you really need to stop by and keep the place looking good. (and get paid for it).Bill

southside

07-30-2000, 03:44 AM

I'm quite pleased that my price was in the ballpark,taking into account the currency conversions plus converting imperial into metric.Sorry I didn't price the chemical apps but I'm not familiar with the types of grass in the US and the chemicals available there. Very good excersize in pricing ability,really gets the brain working.Karl

thelawnguy

08-06-2000, 07:12 AM

I probably should have asked this a few weeks earlier, but is the square footage that of the lawn area only, or of the entire lot including house? I assumed the entire lot.

lawrence stone

08-06-2000, 07:39 AM

The quotation of jobs in dollars in this froum is complete BS.

You can't compaire dollar for dollar nationwide.

The cost of doing business varies greatly as well as the
local economy.

Since the cost of living in my area is about 1/4 that it is
in Northern Calif. Silicon Valley we (all contractor of all types) simply charge less but make the same gross profit margin.

TGCummings

08-06-2000, 12:52 PM

I know this debate was a pretty heated one, and that I missed most of it while away on vacation last week, but now that I'm caught up this proved to be one of the most interesting and invaluable discussions I've seen.

And not just because folks were making me laugh with wild suicide attempts.

This thread helped me see, in very clear terms, the different methods folks around this great nation are using for work and billing. I live in a mild climate (never too hot/never too cold) and I bill a flat rate monthly. Yes, sometimes I cut a lawn 5 times/month in the Summmer/Fall, but sometimes I cut a lawn only 2 or 3 times in the Winter/Spring due to rain (or vacation). I get paid even when I don't mow, so I don't mind the extra pick-up when the schedule demands.

It makes sense for my situation (and seems to make a lot of sense for ol' Kirby, too).

Speaking of Ray, bully to you for this thread and the whole mock bidding. I didn't get a chance to partake in the last, but I intend to partake in the next. Great job.

-TGC