New guy-Different story

[Harvey Mushman]

Hi everyone. I'm new here, but I've read quite a bit on both this site and the "other lawnsite". I'm interested in getting into property maintenance. My story is a bit different from the ones that I've read though. I'm 42,decent physical shape, married, 2 kids, and live on 50 acres in the Bristol Hills of upstate NY. I have been self employed for about 9 years in a one man industrial optics shop. I do NOT want to have employees in optics or in this business. The optics have been a good living. I work about 10 hours a week. As much as I would love the optics to grow to 30-40 hours a week, I don't see it happening. My kids (twins) are going to college this fall and I would like to put my time and machinery to work to help with the new bills.
Here is what I already own for our personal use:
2004 Bunton 52" ZTR
2002 New Holland TC40D with bucket
6' 3 pt. bush hog
6' 3 pt.rototiller
Chipmore 6 cylinder Ford powered tow behind chipper
2 Stihl chainsaws (hardhat/safety glasses/ hearing protection too)
Stihl stringtrimmer w/ polepruner/hedge trimmer/ chainsaw attachments
Honda 21" walk behind
21' open trailer
3/4 ton Suburban
6.5 HP pressure washer
I am mechanically inclined and my wife and I have run our self started business successfully for almost a decade. The only piece of equipment that I think that I might need is a leaf blower. I really don't know where to start. I saw the ads for the $100 or $150 starter kits that have the flyers and such, but I kind of got the feeling of a 1/2 hour paid commercial on daytime TV from it.
I am thinking in terms of some lawn mowing,bush hogging,tilling,chipping,pressurewashing,opening/closing camps and cottages. What I need is some expert advice on how to get moving on this.

[sheshovel]

Just start telling everybody you know that you do this work then ask them to tell their freinds.Then you could start by putting up a flyer at the feed stores, hardwarestores and nursery,and stick an add in the paper,be sure to buy liability insurance and get a licence to conduct business in your county.Don't give prices over the phone tell you look at the work and go home to work up a price.Get names adresses and contact #'s of customers and keep them all together in a book of file.Show up and do what you say your gonna do when you say your gonna do it and have fun!

[Harvey Mushman]

Thanks for the first response Sheshovel. There aren't too many people that I can personally tell here. I live in the woods without neighbors. There are a couple of nice lakes within 10 miles that have plenty of millionaires (and at least two billionaires) where I'm sure they have better things to do than property maintenance. I will follow the rest of your advice and start those balls rolling.

[Harvey Mushman]

I tried to PM this but I'm too new here:
Sheshovel, Thanks again for the reply. I looked at your profile and see you ride HDs in CA.- I've rented Harleys the last 2 years while attending optics conventions in SanJose. Last January my brother (who's never been to CA before) and I rented a couple and rode along Rt 1 and into the Ave of the Giants. Neither of us wanted to come back. Absolute paradise!

[genoaustin]

Harvey,

Ahh, Naples. I grew up thereabouts, on the way out to Honeoye. Frequently miss it, too.

I would suggest that you do everything sheshovel said, in Spades. Also, since Naples is a small town (well, it was 3000 people back in 1980, at least) I would go door-to-door and introduce yourself and your business. And go up to the cemetaries, restaurants, and other places, and find out if they have a service, if they are under contract, and when they are open for new bids. And be ready.

Alternatively, get a nice finish mower for your tractor, and offer field cutting and finish cutting for the larger properties. Or get involved with new property construction, if you have the landscaping experience. Rock walls, Stone patios, that kind of thing. Just be sure you have enough experience to do a great job.

Geno

[Harvey Mushman]

Geno,
I'm on top of the hill on the east side of the lake (2 miles south of Cummins Nature Center) I have plenty of experience in all kinds of landscaping. Unfortunately for me I was piss poor and had no equipment when we did all of our place. I think that I've already done my life's quota of rock walls though. I can't do my optics too well with smashed fingers. I've also done plenty of rustic, Adirondack style arbors and such. Our property looks great after 13 years of work. Would it somehow be appropriate to offer potential clients to come to my home to see the work? I have no cliental for references. On the other hand, I don't want to seem like a show off.

[Lawn Sharks]

Harvey,
Show us some pictures of the work you do. We can all chide in with ideas on how to market what your specialties are. A big part of this business is marketing. Don't be shy! Just because you live in the woods doesn't mean you don't know people in your area. Once you tell them all what you do, or want to do, you should see a return. Start with some real estate brokers who need short time jobs done on vacant properties. I have gotten many a client via this route because after the sale the new owners just sign up.

Marketing, marketing, marketing. Don't be shy. There is plenty of work if you are hungry for it.

[Harvey Mushman]

Keith, I'm way too dumb to post pics online. I'm an active member on a popular car forum and have tried to post pics there with no luck. My wife is big time into her gardens. I've been recruited to do her hardscaping which includes some stone retaining walls, wavy wooden shingles on a shed (also called a Carmel Roof), and bark on arbors on the front of our home and a 20' long one that goes through one of her gardens. How to market such things is a mystery to me. Our house is deep in the woods so the only people that would see my work would be invited guests. :help:

[Lawn Sharks]

Harvey,
Try taking pictures of the work you have done and then bring them to a copy store and have 8x11 flyers printed up detailing the work you can do. A one page brochure on regular paper can be hung in a variety of locations like Laundromats, grocery stores etc.

Make sure you put the phone number on the bottom multiple times so that people can tear it off if interested.

[genoaustin]

Harvey,

I hate to say that the season is almost over in Central New York. You will definately be able to get customers if you market hard, but also use the experience with your 5-25 customers to learn how to do it professionally.

That means how to do all particular property quickly and efficiently. Like, the order of steps that works best for you and the grass type. Here, I Edge, trim, mow, Blow on weekly accounts. Some people hate this, because you may have to pull out the trimmer again to get something you missed. Also, there is a learning curve to see the best way to mow so no scalping or high spots are left. Each property is different, and locations of ditches and flower beds can effect your throughput.

Try mowing your property differently, and see if the mow, edge, trim, blow time goes up or down for each item. Also, if you are willing to do onetime cleanups for overgrown properties, you need to learn how to judge the amount of time needed, so you can price accordingly.

I would think that Naples/Canadaguia (I was born in the hopsital there) probably does not have a large population of illegal immigrant labor yet? What is the hourly you are hoping to achieve, over what length of season? What are others getting there? Is the market depressed? I imagine that the season is less than 30 weeks in your region. I can't remember myself how many times I had to cut, with 4 other brothers older to help...

Take care, Gene


ps. Are you grinding for the university, or for production businesses? It is incredible how many optic-related businesses have spun off in the Rochester area.

[genoaustin]

Do you know of Greg Borden? He lives up in Guilick, and his family lives down at the ponds on hunt hollow road, My brother's best friend for 30 years.

We were located on West Lake Road, just south from Wild Rose Ranch (if it is still called that) about 7 miles out of Naples, 7 from Honeoye.

[Harvey Mushman]

Gene, We've got some neighbors on West Gulick with the last name Borden. If it's them, I live less than 1/2 mile south of them. Here I am talking online about my neighbor with someone in Texas that I don't know. Strange world.
Illegals in Naples? That isn't going to happen in my lifetime. The closest thing to that are Schenks and Woodards (and if you grew up here you know what I mean.) I would say that our season is well under the 30 weeks you mentioned. There are enough poorer people up here (See above) so I would guess that going rates on the hill be lower than on the lakefronts. I really don't know what they are though. As I said in my first post, I do make a decent living and have no plans on getting out of optics. I just don't want to go too far in the hole with my kids college costs.
Oh, and on your P.S., I do some work for the U.of R. Laser Lab for Energetics. I've worked at a few different shops in Rochester and now most of them are my customers. In optics it is the Chinese that are eating our lunch. I'm glad that my kids are not interested in it because it will be gone soon enough. Kodak and B+L don't do any of their work in the US anymore.

[Markf]

Harvey,
Call me at 203-445-8497. Way too much to write. I also worked in the optics field (medical end of it) not as an optical engineer but as a mfg. engineer. I might be able to help.
Mark

[Harvey Mushman]

Mark
Thanks for your response. I just now tried calling you and got your machine. What would be the best time to try to contact you? If there is another # with a better time please let me know here or at flatglass@aol.com.

[genoaustin]

Harvey, I wasn't suggesting that you work cheap, it is just that it is hard to compette with some of the immigrants from Mexico, they work VERY hard to make their money, and do a great job. Competing with neighbors and locals (many of which are trailer-home impaired) (not saying anything bad about trailer homes) is much easier. 95% of your neighbors don't have the gumption to do a great job, time after time.

I toured the Laser lab many times to see their status on glass pellet fusion. Very heavy money, big government grants I imagine.

There are many here that do primarily vacation homes, and seem to do a good business. Coastal sold his business for 1.some million last year, I recall.

Actually, The guy I was talking about lives on Hickory Bottom Rd, not W Gulick. The guy you are near is Charles Borden (Googled the name, don't know him) Last time I was back (2 years ago) we came for Grape pie season (wow that has gotten huge!), and to visit my mother's stone at the cemetary above widmers.

Are you originally from Naples, or Rochester?
Geno
Gene, We've got some neighbors on West Gulick with the last name Borden. If it's them, I live less than 1/2 mile south of them. Here I am talking online about my neighbor with someone in Texas that I don't know. Strange world.



Illegals in Naples? That isn't going to happen in my lifetime. The closest thing to that are Schenks and Woodards (and if you grew up here you know what I mean.) I would say that our season is well under the 30 weeks you mentioned. There are enough poorer people up here (See above) so I would guess that going rates on the hill be lower than on the lakefronts. I really don't know what they are though. As I said in my first post, I do make a decent living and have no plans on getting out of optics. I just don't want to go too far in the hole with my kids college costs.
Oh, and on your P.S., I do some work for the U.of R. Laser Lab for Energetics. I've worked at a few different shops in Rochester and now most of them are my customers. In optics it is the Chinese that are eating our lunch. I'm glad that my kids are not interested in it because it will be gone soon enough. Kodak and B+L don't do any of their work in the US anymore.

[Harvey Mushman]

Gene, I didn't take it as you meaning I should work cheap. I do know what you mean about the poorer locals not having the gumption to do a good job. I would think that if they did, they would not be poor.
I do have to try to get some more work from the laser lab. The last job was over a year ago and paid well. What is your connection to optics? Are you and MarkF going to get me enough glass work so I can leave my yard equipment for my own work?
Hickory Bottom is only about 2 miles from me.
I'm sorry to hear about your mother. We go to the Easter sunrise service at Rose Ridge each year. It is beautful. My wife and I both like it but we are in our early 40s and don't want to know exactly where we will spend eternity, so no plots yet.
I'm from Webster, my wife was from Spencerport. We've been up here 13 years now. Our twins just graduated from Naples High.

[genoaustin]

Harvey,

I grew up 0-13 yrs in Hunt Hollow Valley, and all my older brothers and sister did all their time there. My Dad started working at RIT when I was 12, so we moved to the city. I went to RIT for bachelors EE, then fooled around with Imaging science for a while, but did not have the drive to complete that program.

I used my Imaging background to leap into a couple positions out west, but it was tiring to always move to get a new job. There wasn't enough demand anywhere but DC and Denver, and Rochester of course.

Oh, well, alot of my relatives are buried up there. What a great view down into the valley. And we took the bus up into Gulick all the time, if we were on the late bus.
Gene

[Harvey Mushman]

Gene, Email me if you find yourself having ZTR withdrawls on your next trip to the cold, cold north. I'll let you cut my lawn with the Bunton. If you're real good I'll even let you do some edging.

[Ax Man]

Harvey, you are in the goldmine of western Ny.
Find 2 jobs on each lake, and the word will get around. Danny Wegmans would be ideal LOL!
If I lived a little closer I'd work your neighborhood. If you don't get going this summer, hit the ski areas this winter and drop some cards on the bulletin boards.
A job that I'm sure you could get would be snow stacking with your loader, as most of the plow guys can't seem to plan for the next storm.
That could be your 'backdoor" approach to lawn care.

[freddyc]

Maybe not exactly what you're looking at but here goes......


I don't know your area but it sounds like a lot of summer places and such. If so, then start thinking about fall/spring cleanup now.

The other thing that I did this year was winter work in summer cottages.... essentially, people are only there in the summer but really want to enjoy their time there.

Consider construction projects over the winter. It might sound stupid, but this year I did a total bathroom makeover in one place. Worked out good,,, I was done just in time, they liked it and now they are telling their relatives/neighbors.
This is work that people don't want done in the spring/summer/fall cause they want to enjoy the place. A small heater, a few tools and you can take your time to get it done or blast through at your own pace. Its the perfect job over the winter for some extra cash or if you string a few together, then pretty good cash.

If you do a decent job, then you're in for a spring cleanup and then roll into summer maintenance.

Also, if you plow, some people want to take a ride to the cottage in mid winter, but if they live far away, they don't wan't to blow their weekend on shoveling. Drop your name around and with a small tractor, you might be able to open up a place for someone so they can ice fish or whatever without the hassles of clearing snow.

[Staffordnurseries]

I like you am looking at lamndscaping as a second career. I am a manager at a local plant in Rochester, but China and Mexico are eating into the business. I would say two years from now it will be gone.

Quite frankly the margins in this business seem pretty good, and I just love these guys that complain about start ups and undercutting. They truly dont realize how much they sound like our workforce who thought nothing could touch them.

Below is a copy of what I posted and got lots of great feed back:

Tree Farmer wants to expand into other aspects

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I listed this post under new business and did not get much activity. Perhaps I can get more opinions here. I have a christmas tree farm with about 10,000 trees from 2 feet to 7 feet high. To do this I have picked up a line of equipment that can do dual duty. Since like many people here I am doing this part time business as an insurance policy against my manufacturing job is going to go over seas (quality manager at an auto components plant). I think I need to get into the live market with an expanded line of plantings while I am working but still gaining knowledge in this business. So here are my questions:

Beyond my spruces and firs (dont grow pine) what plantings should I be getting in the ground. Oaks, maples perhaps ornamentals?

How about subcontracting? I have the following line of equipment, and am willing to add any reasonable additions that might be suggested. Perhaps bigger finish mowers on the tractors. I am not at the point where I can commit large amouts of time (yet) but occasional work would be great.

I have land to commit, and the following equipment. Any other tree farmers make this transition?

What other work should the following equipment go after?

Main Tractors:
Kubota 4310 with loader and forks
Ford Jubilee (tired nedds rebuild)
International Backhoe (old and heavy, not very transportable)
Power King 14 horse with three point

Tree related:
Lomar Johnson tree planter
Dirt works 30" tree spade (brand new)
Many trimmers including BD 84" backpack.
Chainsaws, pole saws.
Hand and ATV mounted sprayers

Tillage:
60 " tiller 3 point
Troybuilt garden tiller
normal old style plows, disk drags

Mowing:
2003 Dixie chopper (here)
1986 Dixie chopper (cream puff bought to do my moms lawn)
Ford brush hog
DR two foot walk behind brush hog
4 foot 10 hp Brush Hog brand for behind ATV
6 hp string trimmer and changable head string trimmer

Trucks and Plows:
93 ford F-350 with western plow( alternate with chev below)
88 chev K2500 with fisher plow
71 C-50 with 16 foot grain box and hoist (running, doing body work)
81 C-30 cab and chassis to be combined with 71 c-30 dump truck (big project)

[Harvey Mushman]

Thanks for the replies guys. I apprieciate your advice and encouragement.
FreddyC- I gutted and rebuilt our first house. Your cottage remodeling idea is also a great one. I'll follow Axman's advice and pursue the lake people for all kinds of work. Any more advice on how to get my name and what I'm offering out to the public?
Thanks again

[qualitylandscaping]

Harvey, you are in the goldmine of western Ny.
Find 2 jobs on each lake, and the word will get around. Danny Wegmans would be ideal LOL!
If I lived a little closer I'd work your neighborhood. If you don't get going this summer, hit the ski areas this winter and drop some cards on the bulletin boards.
A job that I'm sure you could get would be snow stacking with your loader, as most of the plow guys can't seem to plan for the next storm.
That could be your 'backdoor" approach to lawn care.

Welcome to Lawnsite!!

I'm going to start off by telling you this is not going to be easy.. There are easily 500+ lawn care companies in this area. We cover most of NY State and the rochester/finger lakes area has the most competition I have seen so far.

This time of year is going to be hard to start. 90% of the lawns here are dormant right now. I would start working on a plan to hit Naples, Bristol, Canandaigua, Wayland, etc. hard in the spring.. We do several properties along Rt. 64 and 21... There is definiently work in the area. I would also move out to the lakes (Conesus, Honeoye, Hemlock)..

Take it slow to start, as it is TOUGH competition around here. I wish you the very best of luck with your new business. If you would like to sit down and talk some time, send me a PM.. Myself and Ax Man live about 2 miles away from each other, and are always ready to help when asked..

Good luck! :waving: