How best to install heads after pulling pipes?

[ddthomas2]

Just did my first job using a vibratory plow. Boy, am I sold. I love the speed, but most importantly, you almost couldn't tell we were there.

I am looking to purchase a plow immediately, preferably a Line-Ward L2, as most of our work is in very small lawns(200x200). If anyone knows of a used one, email me at dennis@myddt.com.

I am looking for input on the best and neatest way to install the heads. How are the rest of you doing it?

Thanks,

Dennis

[Dirty Water]

I'm oldschool, I still use PVC and regular tee's. When business slows down in the fall I'm going to expirement with laying poly instead of pulling.

Anyways, I dig out the pipe for each head. I dig about 12" upstream of where the head is and put in my tee there, then I flip a swing joint out to the head.

Takes about 2-3 minutes from start to backfill in decent soil.

[Mdirrigation]

Small lawns today , big lawns tomorrow . Buy a burkeen , ditchwitch or a vemeer , the line ward is for installing catv wire . My burkeen is 23 years old and going strong .

[Dirty Water]

I agree, buy Ditchwitch 255sx or 410sx and you won't regret it

Mdirrigation: We have a 20 year old Ditchwitch VP12 that is still going strong (though its on its 3rd engine), we use it for lawns the 410 can't fit in.

[turfman59]

I have a vermeer LM35 it has a new duetz diesel

[bicmudpuppy]

Just did my first job using a vibratory plow. Boy, am I sold. I love the speed, but most importantly, you almost couldn't tell we were there.

I am looking to purchase a plow immediately, preferably a Line-Ward L2, as most of our work is in very small lawns(200x200). If anyone knows of a used one, email me at dennis@myddt.com.

I am looking for input on the best and neatest way to install the heads. How are the rest of you doing it?

Thanks,

Dennis

That would depend on what you are using for laterals. Poly - I LOVE blazzing saddles. Class pipe - I still like blazzing saddles, but I've seen some new snap tees w/ built in funny barb that I would like to try next time the customer requests rigid laterals. Sch pipe - snap saddles, either the new ones w/ the swing barbs, or the standard threaded ones to drill out. I have a 3/8"x18" drill bit that I cut a length of swing pipe to fit so it can't drill through the pipe, only through the saddle. There are a lot of guys out there that don't like saddles though. Even some poly guys. For glue on snap saddles, I also prefer to use a quicker (hotter) wet/dry blue glue, instead of clear medium body. This is a personal prefrence. I like the faster setup, both for the saddles and for bell ends prior to pulling.

[Dirty Water]

That would depend on what you are using for laterals. Poly - I LOVE blazzing saddles. Class pipe - I still like blazzing saddles, but I've seen some new snap tees w/ built in funny barb that I would like to try next time the customer requests rigid laterals. Sch pipe - snap saddles, either the new ones w/ the swing barbs, or the standard threaded ones to drill out. I have a 3/8"x18" drill bit that I cut a length of swing pipe to fit so it can't drill through the pipe, only through the saddle. There are a lot of guys out there that don't like saddles though. Even some poly guys. For glue on snap saddles, I also prefer to use a quicker (hotter) wet/dry blue glue, instead of clear medium body. This is a personal prefrence. I like the faster setup, both for the saddles and for bell ends prior to pulling.

AHA! Another convert to IPS 725 or glues like it.

I use it without primer too.

[ddthomas2]

On this job, I used PVC with drill through saddles. On poly, I too would use blazing saddles.

Do you attempt to place the heads above the pipe in the slits made by the plow, or in a separate hole offset to the side?

I am trying to learn the fastest way to install heads, for the normal installs.

Secondly, I am considering a marketing strategy to perform a surgical or invisible installation, thereby allowing me to charge well above market rate to avoid the unsightly trenched or "war zone" stage. For this, I need to install the heads so that it will be imperceptable that they were recently installed.

Any suggestions?

[Dirty Water]

On this job, I used PVC with drill through saddles. On poly, I too would use blazing saddles.

Do you attempt to place the heads above the pipe in the slits made by the plow, or in a separate hole offset to the side?

I am trying to learn the fastest way to install heads, for the normal installs.

Secondly, I am considering a marketing strategy to perform a surgical or invisible installation, thereby allowing me to charge well above market rate to avoid the unsightly trenched or "war zone" stage. For this, I need to install the heads so that it will be imperceptable that they were recently installed.

Any suggestions?

I have lots of 4x8 tarps. I fold them in half, and keep all my dirt on them. Thats half the battle.

The other half is to KEEP ALL SOD, and put it back when your done.

If you get both of those right, you can do an almost invisible install.

[drmiller100]

plastic garbage bags for your dirt. cheap, disposable, and effective.

we try to dig the holes first, then plow through the middle of them. it is quicker to dig the hole without the plow there. if I owned the plow, and it would be there always, I'd use the plow to loosen the soil for easier digging, then dig the holes, then pull the pipe.

we pull the wire too if needed.

we use the orange plastic saddles that require no tools. work well except if ambient temps are below about 55 degrees, in which case the pipe collapses sometimes instead of pierces. Also some of the "better" pipe doesn't pierce easy.
One problem I have yet to find a solution for is the ends of the runs. We have been using teh one inch poly to funny pipe straight connectors, but if there is any rocks of any kind, and you don't get hte line TOTALLY blown out, the rock will run down to the end and plug hte line. This is EVERY SINGLE TIME for every little teeny rock. But, if you cap the line and run a saddle, I'm worried about it getting blown out correctly in the fall. Any thoughts????

[Dirty Water]

This is EVERY SINGLE TIME for every little teeny rock. But, if you cap the line and run a saddle, I'm worried about it getting blown out correctly in the fall. Any thoughts????

Don't get rocks in your lines when you pull.

2 pieces of duct tape over the end of the pipe is all that it takes here.

[drmiller100]

yeah, i do that. but.......... still have rocks and dirt.

[jeffinsgf]

...One problem I have yet to find a solution for is the ends of the runs. We have been using teh one inch poly to funny pipe straight connectors, but if there is any rocks of any kind, and you don't get hte line TOTALLY blown out, the rock will run down to the end and plug hte line. This is EVERY SINGLE TIME for every little teeny rock. But, if you cap the line and run a saddle, I'm worried about it getting blown out correctly in the fall. Any thoughts????

I just pulled the guts out of 27 rotors. In two of them I found a speck of gravel and some PVC sawdust. This after careful purging of the lines as I built. 1 minute of run time with the sprinkler out of the case flushed everything right out. Maybe you're talking about bigger rocks, but if it will move through the swing joint/funny pipe, you can get it out.

[Mdirrigation]

I have lots of 4x8 tarps. I fold them in half, and keep all my dirt on them. Thats half the battle.

The other half is to KEEP ALL SOD, and put it back when your done.

If you get both of those right, you can do an almost invisible install.


Try a pool liner from an inground pool. I get them that were made wrong for 25 dolars , get about 50 4 by 6 pieces . They last 4 or 5 years

[DGI]

Do you attempt to place the heads above the pipe in the slits made by the plow, or in a separate hole offset to the side?

It depends on a lot of factors, but what I've discovered is that anywhere the ground is hard, plow directly over your flags, and where it is softer or not nice grass, a foot out seems to actually be faster with a blazing saddle.

There are a lot of guys out there that don't like saddles though.

Since we have learned to properly fit and backfill blazing saddles, we haven't had a single failure where the dirt was undisturbed. Even before then, only a few had been broken from being driven on by heavy equipment.

[bicmudpuppy]

AHA! Another convert to IPS 725 or glues like it.

I use it without primer too.
I learned my lessons w/ one step products back in the 80's. I still go through a minimum of 2 primer to 1 glue and worse than that if I tip the cans. (ever notice how much faster the primer spills?) Primer ain't that much more than cleaner, and if your not using cleaner either...........shame on ya'

[Dirty Water]

I learned my lessons w/ one step products back in the 80's. I still go through a minimum of 2 primer to 1 glue and worse than that if I tip the cans. (ever notice how much faster the primer spills?) Primer ain't that much more than cleaner, and if your not using cleaner either...........shame on ya'

Primer is just purple died acetone.

If you bevel your pipe well, and use a really hot glue like IPS 725 you'll be fine.

if not, I have about 10,000 fittings to go dig up and redo :p

Try IPS 725 out sometime. You'll be pleasantly surprised.

[bicmudpuppy]

Primer is just purple died acetone.

If you bevel your pipe well, and use a really hot glue like IPS 725 you'll be fine.

if not, I have about 10,000 fittings to go dig up and redo :p

Try IPS 725 out sometime. You'll be pleasantly surprised.
It's not the pleasant suprises I worry about!!
I learned this gig working 18 holes of country club w/ a 160psi constant pressure 3 and 4" main. They told me what wonder and joy I would have not using primer and we would save money not buying primer and.........That's sales and it don't mean $hit when the elboe or tee blows up in your face. Or, worse than that blows up at 4:45 on Friday and you had plans for the weekend, but it's going to be hot and dry and they need that water to work. I'm not saying it doesn't work, I'm saying that this old dog doesn't want to learn those new tricks anymore.
1) primer is cheap, all things considered
2) If it's me and only me, I can buy clear and it won't stain anyting, but if I buy purple, I KNOW if and where it got used.
3) What's the big deal, you tape a quart of each together, and there they are. Those precious few seconds swabing primer are an investment. If your working repair, primer cleans better than cleaner.

Like I said, just an old dog who won't learn. If I do it like I've always done it, then I know it will be like it always was. :)

[Dirty Water]

I should note that I dont use IPS 725 on anything larger than 1 1/4".

I'll use meduim bodied blue with a primer on the big stuff.

[cenlo]

Small lawns today , big lawns tomorrow . Buy a burkeen , ditchwitch or a vemeer , the line ward is for installing catv wire . My burkeen is 23 years old and going strong .

It would sure be nice for everyone to try a machine before assuming its limits! I have a Lineward L-1 and it pulls pipe like a dream. I can pull 1" poly thru thick clay for 150-200' runs "no problem". As I look at other machines, bigger doesn't mean better. The Lineward machine is just a smarter design. All the weight is centered perfectly over the puller, (and is located in the center of the machine not the back). The L-2 is the same as the L-1 with the option of a lower gear. For irrigation we pull about 8" down with the L-1. Maybe it's the price of the Linewards' ($30,000.00) that scares people off, because the machines are amazing! Just because their original design was for Bell Canada, don't assume there limitations.

[Mdirrigation]

Can it pull 150 to 200 foot runs of 1 1/2 inch ? Can it pull 2 1 inch pipes at the same time ? I have run a line ward . Its overpriced and underpowered for my needs

[cenlo]

Can it pull 150 to 200 foot runs of 1 1/2 inch ? Can it pull 2 1 inch pipes at the same time ? I have run a line ward . Its overpriced and underpowered for my needs

I can't remember ever needing to pull a 1 1/2" polyline, so I can't say! Also, I never tried to pull 2 1"lines together (with the 5 minutes it takes to pull 150', who cares!)
In my area most jobs are under 20,000 ft2 of turf area. The benifet of a smaller sized machine, just seems better. (For me anyway) :)

[Wet_Boots]

Maybe it's the price of the Linewards' ($30,000.00) that scares people off, because the machines are amazing!
That price would scare me off (even in Canadian quasi-dollars :p ) plenty. It isn't that the smaller machines are useless, it's more about not monopolizing your resources on a machine that forces you to rule out on bidding on certain job sites.

[Dirty Water]

Can it pull 150 to 200 foot runs of 1 1/2 inch ? Can it pull 2 1 inch pipes at the same time ? I have run a line ward . Its overpriced and underpowered for my needs

I can pull an 1 1/4" main, 1" sprinkler lateral, and 1/2" wire conduit at the same time with my 410.

[Wet_Boots]

What's the longest conduit run you use? Do you employ a fish tape to pull the wires through the conduit? Or maybe blow a pull line through it?

[Flatbed]

Linewards are $30,000? Are you people crazy.

[Wet_Boots]

(Canadian dollars, maybe. You can't even buy a gallon of gas with one of those :) )

[Dirty Water]

(Canadian dollars, maybe. You can't even buy a gallon of gas with one of those :) )

I can't buy a gallon of gas with a US dollar either. I live on a bordertown. It used to be great to go over to Canada to do some shopping, but now that our dollar is so weak, you only save aboue $0.20 over the canadian dollar.

In regards to the conduit. I usually don't do runs of over 100', so I fish tape it. I have used a pullstring and a shop vac as well.

I only use conduit when I'm pulling, all trenched lines are direct bury. I also have a wire feed blade for the 410, but you can't pull a pipe and the wire together with that.

[cenlo]

That price would scare me off (even in Canadian quasi-dollars :p ) plenty. It isn't that the smaller machines are useless, it's more about not monopolizing your resources on a machine that forces you to rule out on bidding on certain job sites.

Wouldn't a larger machine rule out bidding on smaller jobs.(ie. jobs where you can't access the rear yard due to oversized equipment). Also, other than golf courses, where would you run into a job that pulling 150' of 1" main line would be insuffficient?

[Wet_Boots]

If a house is on several acres, and has a one-and-a-half inch water meter, and the layout needs two inch mainline pipe, that's when the owner of the small machine sighs and wishes for more. The three-foot garden gate is a benchmark width for most machines. Even the bigger plows can get through one of those, but often the wheels are chosen or set for a wider track, and more stability.

[BSME]

Jon what do you use on your 410 to pull the pipe? a bullet? I pull the pipe and wire at the same time by running the wire through the chains of the bullet... haven't lost it yet

[Dirty Water]

BSME: When you say Bullet, I think of the "bullet" forged onto my pullblade, but you may be referring to something else.

I use those "chinese finger puller" pipe socks, with 6" of chain off the pullblade.

I was using $2.99 carabeaners from a hardware store, but kept breaking them. Since I like the ease of being able to unhook it quickly, I switched to $16 mountian climbing carabeaners and haven't broke one yet.

[bicmudpuppy]

BSME: When you say Bullet, I think of the "bullet" forged onto my pullblade, but you may be referring to something else.

I use those "chinese finger puller" pipe socks, with 6" of chain off the pullblade.

I was using $2.99 carabeaners from a hardware store, but kept breaking them. Since I like the ease of being able to unhook it quickly, I switched to $16 mountian climbing carabeaners and haven't broke one yet.
Some guys use a towed bullet behind the blade. I've always liked having the bullet as part of the blade, but it is probably a personal prefrence.

I think the Lineward plows look slick for narrow gates and small installs. Way back when, we had a "pied piper" that was a walk behind plow that looked a lot like a sod cutter. We installed some very long runs of 1" poly as conduit with it. $30K?? WTF?? For less than 20K, you could have your choice of skid steer with a plow that would still make it through those narrow gates and small backyards. The DW sk500 uses the same shaker and plow as the 255sx. When I can rent this machine, I do. It pulls almost as good as a 410 and out maneuvers a 410 like a motorcycle to a semi-truck. That being said, more than 200' with rigid pipe and wire is asking for problems.(1" pipe and 13 strand wire) A 410, if you've got a good grip will pull 1.5" farther than a 255 or equivalent will pull 1" pipe. And being able to pull 1.5" and 2" pipe is a major plus. The number of sump pump lines I have pulled across back yards for an extra couple of hundred has been significant. If I ran across a Lineward or VP and the price was right, I would consider one, BUT $6K isn't the figure and $30K isn't either. Even if it came with a lifetime service agreement and warranty. A 410 w/ plow, trencher and roto bore can be had for that kind of money.

[bicmudpuppy]

Wouldn't a larger machine rule out bidding on smaller jobs.(ie. jobs where you can't access the rear yard due to oversized equipment). Also, other than golf courses, where would you run into a job that pulling 150' of 1" main line would be insuffficient?
The majority of my installs are 200' of mainline, and if I can make that bend around the house going from front to back in one pull, I'm going to. A 410 will normally let me get away with it. And these are all less than 1/4 acre lots.

[ddthomas2]

A new L2 only costs $12,000 US and a factory reman is $9000. Used ones are around $6000.

[cenlo]

If a house is on several acres, and has a one-and-a-half inch water meter, and the layout needs two inch mainline pipe, that's when the owner of the small machine sighs and wishes for more. The three-foot garden gate is a benchmark width for most machines. Even the bigger plows can get through one of those, but often the wheels are chosen or set for a wider track, and more stability.

1 1/2" water meter? Around here everything is 1/2"-3/4" from the street. Are you refering to an 1 1/2" meter inlet? (B.t.w. I'm not trying to be smart, I have just never run into situations like that!) Every job that I have worked on has had 1" poly. All I pull is 1"poly (other than the funny pipe to the heads). I'm pretty sure 3/4" would do the job just fine, but I don't want to mix fittings.

[Wet_Boots]

I guess it's a matter of location, but most regions have their 'high-rent' districts, with mansions, or less attractive (to my aesthetics) McMansion neighborhoods, with no house small enough not to have four garage doors on the side. Minimum lot-size zoning guarantees acres of lawn and shrubs on each job. Everything gets scaled up, although the sprinkler heads can remain the same. (just more of them)

[cenlo]

A new L2 only costs $12,000 US and a factory reman is $9000. Used ones are around $6000.

I have a quote from the head office in New York for $31,000.00 + for an L-2 with boring attachment Canadian dollars, freight included. That's like..............$23,000.00
USD.

[Wet_Boots]

Nice price if they can get it.

[ddthomas2]

Cenlo,

Not sure what is going on with your pricing. I spoke with Bob Ward directly. He quoted me 12k for L2 with 16hp, 13k for L2 with 21 or 22hp?, and $2500 for boring attachment.

I can't see how the price could possibly be in the 20's. That would buy a much bigger machine.

Dennis

[cenlo]

Cenlo,

Not sure what is going on with your pricing. I spoke with Bob Ward directly. He quoted me 12k for L2 with 16hp, 13k for L2 with 21 or 22hp?, and $2500 for boring attachment.

I can't see how the price could possibly be in the 20's. That would buy a much bigger machine.

Dennis


I'm going to try and get some answers!