Pro C Controller Problems

[cenlo]

Has anyone else experienced problem with the Pro c firng the master valve?

[MikeK]

Give us more info and I'm sure someone here can help. My guess is it's a wiring issue, not a controller issue

[cenlo]

Give us more info and I'm sure someone here can help. My guess is it's a wiring issue, not a controller issue

It's definitely the controller. If I try to fire a certain zone with the master valve connected nothing happens but if I pull the master valve wire off and attach it to the same zone they both fire. Also, if I get another faceplate from a different controller (that is working) and connect it at this job all is fine.

[Wet_Boots]

I believe it is a known issue with the Pro C. If you have jobs with no master valve using the Pro C you can swap out panels, should the controller be out of warranty.

[cenlo]

I believe it is a known issue with the Pro C. If you have jobs with no master valve using the Pro C you can swap out panels, should the controller be out of warranty.

I fiqured this was a problem with the units. I get about 2 in every 15 units with that issue. So far the problem has been caught during the install, I hope it doesn't start happening afterwards to other units. We always use a master valve. Man...............what a P.I T.A.

[turfman59]

I dont use master valves on any residential jobs anymore but the problem did happen to me when I was doing them and your right it was a Pro -C timer. All I did was take the wire for the MV out of the terminal and left and told the client it was fixed and sent them a bill for 50.oo cha ching. they were a PITA anyways. payup

[bicmudpuppy]

I dont use master valves on any residential jobs anymore but the problem did happen to me when I was doing them and your right it was a Pro -C timer. All I did was take the wire for the MV out of the terminal and left and told the client it was fixed and sent them a bill for 50.oo cha ching. they were a PITA anyways. payup
I hope you were smart enough to gut the MV or remove it. I've cut the center out of a lot of diaphrams on systems that the client wouldn't pay to fix the MV wiring. As to telling them I fixed something and charging them for it, when all I did was hide the problem.........we all do buisness as to our own convictions. I tell PITA's they are pita's and suggest they shop elsewhere. I also find a need to shave on a regular basis. To each his own.

[turfman59]

I hope you were smart enough to gut the MV or remove it. As to telling them I fixed something and charging them for it, when all I did was hide the problem.........we all do buisness as to our own convictions. I tell PITA's they are pita's and suggest they shop elsewhere. I also find a need to shave on a regular basis. To each his own.wjy would I cut the guts out? After I came to the conclusion about when and where to use master valves I decided I made a mistake using it anyway. I would really like to here your narrative on telling someone there a PITA... I am sure if you are saying it in this fashion it is costing you good referals.....MY customer satisfaction mailer poll is at 96% on the part where it asks about if they would refer my company it is 98%.....Lets here your narrative on telling a customer there a PITA

[bicmudpuppy]

wjy would I cut the guts out? After I came to the conclusion about when and where to use master valves I decided I made a mistake using it anyway. I would really like to here your narrative on telling someone there a PITA... I am sure if you are saying it in this fashion it is costing you good referals.....MY customer satisfaction mailer poll is at 96% on the part where it asks about if they would refer my company it is 98%.....Lets here your narrative on telling a customer there a PITA
If you left a MV in place only manually open or with the plunger removed so it wouldn't close, you leave the possiblity of that valve failing in a closed position down the road. The way to make sure this can't happen is to remove the center of the diaphram. As to telling a customer they are a pita.........Mrs. Jones, I'm terribly sorry we haven't been able to meet your expectations. In our desire to see you get the best service possible, we would like to suggest you find another company. No, I'm sorry, we really feel this is in your best interest, and we do not feel it would be fair to increase your costs to meet your expectations.............You don't have to be rude, just firm. That customer who has called you to re-adjust this head or that one for free for the entire warranty period needs to be let go. That customer who consistently pays Novembers winterization with his pre-paid spring turn-on, needs to be let go. I would love to have 400+ systems, or the 700+ I used to service before going out on my own, but there is no profit in these customers, and most of them are NOT refering you to their friends. They survive and make themselves feel better when they are complaining. If they are your customer, they are complaining about you. Much better to let the guy down the street get that account and that advertising.

Oh, and your getting less than 100% positive feedback on postage paid satisfaction cards? If they bothered to fill it out, they said good things. If they are PO'd, they tossed it in the trash. What percentage of those cards do you get back?

[cenlo]

After I came to the conclusion about when and where to use master valves I decided I made a mistake using it anyway.

Why wouldn't you guys use a master valve all the time? We run 3/4" copper out of the house and into the ground (with a blow-out fitting of course) once in the ground we usually have a 12" run into our valve box where we have our back flow and then the master valve. For the $20.00 cost it just give me pc. of mind. With no pressure in any lines or manifolds there is no chance of leaking or blow-outs.

[bicmudpuppy]

Why wouldn't you guys use a master valve all the time? We run 3/4" copper out of the house and into the ground (with a blow-out fitting of course) once in the ground we usually have a 12" run into our valve box where we have our back flow and then the master valve. For the $20.00 cost it just give me pc. of mind. With no pressure in any lines or manifolds there is no chance of leaking or blow-outs.
I like having a MV, but there are applications where a MV isn't a good idea. Sometimes the sprinkler main is used to feed a remote hydrant or a pond or pool float. In these instances (and others), constant pressure on the main is needed.

[Wet_Boots]

A valve could always stick open sometimes, but it isn't that common an event. A master valve is no guarantee against system failure due to valve problems, and in fact, would guarantee a service call when a valve was shutting off too slowly, or not shutting off at all without full inlet pressure.

[jerryrwm]

The main reason we used MV years ago was to use an AVB as a backflow. They were considered code in most places up until several years ago. But they had to have a MV to prevent continuous pressure exceeding 12 hrs on the AVB.

Then codes changed and a "tattler head" was required between the AVB and the first valve. This head ran continuously as long as the system was operating. Many contractors used to install a pressure compensating emitter to prevent puddling.

Then the codes changed again and AVB became homeowner equipment and DCA and PVB became the norm. Now there is no need for MV as these devices are okay under pressure.

As for Mainline being under pressure, is there a problem with that? Valves leaking? With a MV there is a longer discovery time to find out the system is malfunctioning. A malfunctioning MV and the entire system is down. Not a bad thing if the MV fails open, but if it fails closed (solenoid, diaphragm) and there is no one monitoring the system for an extended period because the owners are on vacation, then the yard dies and then see who catches hell.

The only real good thing for a MV is a security measure. The customer does not pay, the MV is disabled thereby disabling the system.

Have cut many diaphragm centers out of old MV so the system could work and not have to dig up the yard. Then the old valve just becomes another mainline fitting.

It's really interesting to watch a new "irrigation tech" with his brand new tool bucket try to figure out why he can't get the system to operate by turning on the bleed screw, and why he can't get the valve to open even though he can hear the solenoid click on the valve that he found. And he's taken the valves apart, and checked the controller and it is putting out voltage, and he thinks he is going to have to replace the backflow device because it obviously is malfunctioning and not letting water pass. Never occured to them to wonder what that wire attached to the MV/Pump wire is there for. And on the old mechanical controllers that had a pigtail wiring harness instead of a terminal strip it goes unnoticed very easily.

have a good one.

Jerry

Keep the victims of Katrina in your thoughts.

[Dirty Water]

The only time we've installed master valves are on systems located on bluff properties. If a valve were to stick open for a while when someone was on vacation, the damage could cause a landslide.

[cenlo]

As for Mainline being under pressure, is there a problem with that? Valves leaking? With a MV there is a longer discovery time to find out the system is malfunctioning. A malfunctioning MV and the entire system is down. Not a bad thing if the MV fails open, but if it fails closed (solenoid, diaphragm) and there is no one monitoring the system for an extended period because the owners are on vacation, then the yard dies and then see who catches hell.

Which has more chance of failing,......1 valve.........or....an entire system of components? 1 valve with minimal parts vs an entire system of parts? (plus human installation error). Having components under no pressure or having them under 60 psi for the next 20 years? Someone with so much experience should be more logical! :dizzy:

[Wet_Boots]

'components under pressure' presents a negligible risk, as far as a manifold of valves on sch 40 pipe goes. You will have more service work from tree root damage than from pressure failures of valves and manifolds at 60 psi. If I wanted to invest in more valve reliability, the money goes into valves with flow controls.

As for AVB's with a master valve, that sort of thing was a fairly common mis-reading of regional codes, and I would sometimes see it where the property sloped uphill from the house and AVB. The 'tattler head' was at least a practical consideration, with a large base of AVB installs. The last time I was looking at a code book, I saw an illustrated version, and it had a picture of the AVB/master valve combo, with a barred circle over the drawing, just in case someone still thought it was okay to use.

[jerryrwm]

Which has more chance of failing,......1 valve.........or....an entire system of components? 1 valve with minimal parts vs an entire system of parts? (plus human installation error). Having components under no pressure or having them under 60 psi for the next 20 years? Someone with so much experience should be more logical! :dizzy:

Logically I think that my installation will last the test of time. Logically I have every confidence in my installation abilities and rest assured that I will do it right. I have enough confidence that I can put the system in and cover it up before pressurizing the mainline.

I wonder how in the hell these systems down here, some with more than 60 psi and on old Telsco grey SDR pipe have been operating without a MV for better than 30 yrs. And maybe you can tell me how all these houses without a MV can hold PVC lines together for longer than 20 yrs? They are under constant pressure also.

Parts can and do fail. The zone valves fail, fittings fail, and the Master valve fails. It is all related. We install the system, we maintain the system, we repair the system. If everything lasted 20 yrs or more we would eventually be out of business or starve waiting for that 20 yr service call.

If you want to use a MV that's fine. It just happens to be the consensus in our part of the world that it's kinda like wearing elastic waistband slacks with suspenders and a belt.

Take care,

Jerry R

[DanaMac]

The entire plumbing inside the house is pressurized constantly at around 60 psi with no master valve, and yes things can and do break. Hot water tank, sink and toilet fittings, etc. You could probably design an entire plumbing system that was somehow wired up to operate with a master valve but it's not necessary. The parts we use are designed to be under constant pressure, if installed properly. I hate getting to a house I haven't worked on that has a MV and waste time trying to figure the problem or find the MV that may be buried with no box.

Things will break and wear down. A master valve won't prevent all problems. It is also one more component that can break down.

[cenlo]

It just happens to be the consensus in our part of the world that it's kinda like wearing elastic waistband slacks with suspenders and a belt.

ok..ok...ok I get the point! :) I was just in a bad mood this morning when I replied. Your above comment is perfect. My mood is getting better.....thanks, have a great day!

[jerryrwm]

ok..ok...ok I get the point! :) I was just in a bad mood this morning when I replied. Your above comment is perfect. My mood is getting better.....thanks, have a great day!

My mood has improved considerably too. It is raining so we are getting a respite from the near 100 degree days we have had for the last 3-4 wks. Now maybe I can get caught up on the billing.


Jerry

[jcom]

I have the same mindset as Cenlo.

We use PVC to the main valve and poly after. Just a condition that we prefer. Yup, it could stick open but that will be the least of our concerns. We will take our chances and install a main valve.

There is nothing that is foolproof. I personally do not like having poly "live".

John :waving:

[Dirty Water]

Do most of you guys realize that if there is no pressure differntial between the mainline before the master valve and the mainline after it, the valve won't close?

So in other words, if the zone valve closes first, you still have pressurized poly.

[bicmudpuppy]

Which has more chance of failing,......1 valve.........or....an entire system of components? 1 valve with minimal parts vs an entire system of parts? (plus human installation error). Having components under no pressure or having them under 60 psi for the next 20 years? Someone with so much experience should be more logical! :dizzy:
Actually, systems w/ master valves see a higer rate of failure on the other zone valves than a system w/ a pressured main because the rubber in the valves can actually go bad faster when they are dry. If the components are new and everything shuts off about the same time, then your main line doesn't drop to zero pressure, but as things wear down, you end up with dry mains and valve rubber that is doing what is wasn't designed to do. The southern guys see much better life spans on their valves than we do in winterizing climates because letting those valves sit all winter "dry" is very hard on the equipment. And that master valve doesn't prevent those other components from going bad, it prevents the detection of their failure. I still like master valves in "growth" areas because the cable and phone guys are forever choping my stuff up. The upside to the MV is the customer doesn't come home to a flood and more often than not I get to fix it. The down side is the guys hitting my pipes don't realize they tore everything up. Pro's and con's for both arguments.

[cenlo]

Do most of you guys realize that if there is no pressure differntial between the mainline before the master valve and the mainline after it, the valve won't close?

So in other words, if the zone valve closes first, you still have pressurized poly.

Even if the zone valve did close first the pressure would be reduced to the pressure required to fire the heads. (I think that would be pretty low)

[Critical Care]

Hmm... So if 60 psi is flowing through the MV & one zone valve, and the zone valve shuts first, then there should still be 60 psi pressurized within the section between the zone valve and the MV. Is this correct? If the MV is open, though very briefly, the supply source will continue to pressurize (to a point) the line up to the zone valve(s). Hence, perhaps a need for slow closing zone valves - if this is the route you want to take.

I live in the fastest growing area in Oregon, and no one installs MVs on typical residential systems. You just don’t see them.

Several years back I was checking an irrigation system that was having intermittent problems where sometimes there was water, sometimes not. You know, one of those scratch your head type of things because whenever you’d be there all would look fine. And then you start thinking… master valve? Came to find out that a room addition had gone over a master valve, and the valve was acting up. With everything quiet, you could actually hear the valve’s solenoid switch on and off beneath the floorboards. Ain’t we got fun…

Back to the Pro C problem… Okay, what goes here? Now I’m a bit worried, because the one time I had to install a master valve I also used the Pro C. The MV was a 2” normally open Century valve that supplied water to some agricultural fields, but would close whenever the home's landscape irrigation came on. Worked fine… but now you guys have me a bit concerned.

By the way Cenlo, I see that you put your blowout points, or stubs, on the upstream side of the backflow device. Ever have problems? We always blowout systems downstream of the BFD.

[cenlo]

By the way Cenlo, I see that you put your blowout points, or stubs, on the upstream side of the backflow device. Ever have problems? We always blowout systems downstream of the BFD.

The pro c controller seems to work fine once it is installed without a defect. I hope this is an assembly problem and not one that will act up after installation. (that would be a bad thing)
As far as the BFD I don't understand the difference? If I have my blow out at the beginning of my primary water source and I force air instead of water would it not be the same thing?

[Critical Care]

Typically, at least around here, 99% of the time all of the blowout points will be just below the BFD. Blowing air through the device could damage it from the heat generated by the compressor. Especially with large volumes of air, short runs of hose, and little heat sinking, there can be quite a bit of heat caused from the air friction. I really bite my nails when I have to blow out systems through the BFD, but when I do, I never push 185 cfm of air through the device but opt for less heat, and unfortunately a longer time to complete the task.

I personally liked the PRO C, but have since gone to using some ESP Modulars for similar expandable applications.

[F6Hawk]

Even if the zone valve did close first the pressure would be reduced to the pressure required to fire the heads. (I think that would be pretty low)I'm not in the pro leagues here, but if I understand the valve function correctly:

If the zone valve closes first and dynamic pressure was say 45 psi with static of 60, then the pressure in the mainline back to the MV will quickly increase (almost instantly) to 60 psi, with very little room for the water to flow and allow the MV to close. Assuming a diameter of 1.25 inches, how much water volume difference is there between 45 & 60 psi? I don't know (I am sure Wet Boots has a chart, though!), but suspect it is very small.

Seems to me that the MV will stay open, or at least partly so. And if it is open at ALL, then the mainline stays pressurized.

This is why I did not use a MV on my installation, even though a local "pro" recommended one.

[jerryrwm]

Assuming a diameter of 1.25 inches, how much water volume difference is there between 45 & 60 psi? I don't know (I am sure Wet Boots has a chart, though!), but suspect it is very small.



Since water is not compressable in a closed system there would be no difference. Water may be compressed in a lab or factory situation but then it becomes stream due to compression.

Jerry

[Wet_Boots]

Chart schmart - with a master valve, you'd want the master valve to close first, and it's pretty easy to achieve that by using a flow control valve for the master, throttled down, and standard valves for the zones.