The destruction of customer service

[steveair]

This subject has been talked about before, at least I'd imagine it has been, but I just have to speak my mind on it.<p>Where I work, we have a huge work load and are just unable to handle it all right now. So, to pick up some work, we hire outside contractors to handle some of are mowing, mainly for areas that need more attention than we can give them.<p>Now, we have some of the biggest and the best contractors working around our facility for other tennants already, but ourselves, we use a local, smaller company. We have companys like brickman, dubrows, etc, who are major players in our area, doing each individual hanger complex. <p>Now, heres my problem. I compare the company we are using to these other company's, which charge the big $, and you know what, I notice no difference. In all honesty, I personally think they all just stink. <p>How do they stink?<p>In customer service, that's how. I'm sorry, and I don't mean any offense, but what ever happened to this idea in our business. It seems to have gone right out the window. And how did it go out the window?<p>With foreign help, thats how!<p>I'm sorry to say it, but every company that works around the airport is nothing but either spanish or other people who have no ability to communicate. From the big giant companies, to the local guy with a pickup, its all the same anymore. <p>Well, I just hate it anymore, and personnally am getting sick and tired of it. <p>There's no way to communicate with your contractors anymore. I walk up to the crew that does our complex to ask a few questions, and well, I just get a dumb look and am told in broken english, &quot;contact the office&quot;.<p>You now what, I DON'T WANT TO CONATACT THE OFFICE JUST TO GET A 20 FT STRIP OF GRASS MOWED. It's just becoming ridiculous. What am I gonna do. Contact the office, talk to the secretary, then play phone tag for a week to get someone in charge, then setup a day for him to come out, then get a quote sent to me a few days later, then have to send the quote back and signed, and then have to pray that they tell the crew to mow that strip of grass. <p>IT'S RIDICULOUS! <p>All this so there guy can do something that takes 30 seconds!<p>I am not saying that everyone is like this, but it sure the hell seems like it. What ever happened to having someone to talk to on the job.<p>It seems that today, even foreman, the cornerstone of your maintenance crew, have no idea what they are doing anymore. It's such a rarity these days to walk up to a landscape crew and be able to get any kind of answer from them, none the less, a answer in English!<p>To me, it seems like customer service has just gone by by. Its sad, but its the truth. And who's to blame, I'm not sure, but I think we are all.<p>Its sad these days that we in this industry have no choice but to higher outside labor. It's very sad.<p>And personally, I think we are beginning to destroy ourselves with it. We are giving ourselves the image of what everyone thinks we are, as &quot;GRASSCUTTERS&quot;. That, we are not.<br>We ARE BUSINESS PEOPLE, who should be working in a professional manor. With this influx of outside labor, we are tagging ourselves as a bunch of cheap working, uneducated people.<p>For instance, when my supervisor asks why the strip of grass is not being cut, I tell him that I can't get in contact with anyone. <p>You know what he says back to me, this:<p>&quot;Well, its just a bunch of landscapers, what do you expect, I guess just do it yourself untill they will&quot;<p>This tells the whole story. We are killing ourselves these days. In our quest to find economical labor, we have reduced ourselves to nothing more than &quot;landscapers&quot;. We will never get respect this way, and all the problems that we have with pricing, customers, etc. will never go away unless something is done.<p>Just some thoughts,<br>steveair<p><p>

[Evan528]

i strongly agree with everything you said! the reason why these companys are hiring foreigners is because they work harder than any american ive ever seen. they dont hire them cause there cheap.... cause there not even cheap anymore! the mexicans now no how good of workers they are and what a damand there is for such great workers that at least locally there not working for less that 10-12 bucks a hour to start.... some are making 14-15 a hour.... they will quite if someone offers them 25cents more an hour so bosses are constently uping there pay to make them happy. i help out a guy i no this summer with his buissness when i was slow cause of the drought....he had 12 full time employees, 8 of them were eleagal aliens with fake ID from daminican repupblic. i couldnt stand workking with them all day and not being able to comunucate with themexept for sign language. whe I would work with them alone i woold go crazy. when costomers would come out and ask them a question or tell them something they would just point to me cause they cant speak english.... i hated working with them. i will never hire one of them unless they can learn english.

[Scraper]

I wholeheartedly agree with you and used it to my advantage yesterday resulting in three new lawns and possibly a whole lot more in a neighborhood I service ($300k+ homes). There is a service that &quot;lowballed&quot; everyone by providing services for $22.50/cut. Some of these lawns are over a half acre. I was mowing my current properties which I had been servicing for the past 5 years when a property owner pulled up and asked me if I would mind stopping by and giving him an estimate. I did and I got the job for $40 a cut. While cutting his lawn two other neighbors came over and asked me to do their lawns as well. While mowing the second lawn I saw the crew that these people were upset about and it was two foreigners and the owner who sat in the truck watching them work. Needless to say I got some cold glares as the neighbors went over and told the owner that he would no longer be providing services! Just more proof that lowballing and foreign help DOES NOT PAY! All the new customers were more than happy to pay more $$! No way in hell was I going to cut them for $22.50. I almost felt like walking over to this guys truck and tell him how he is ruining the industry by his business practices, but I just smiled knowing I took three of his accounts and probably more in the next few weeks as the neighbors switch to my services. Sorry if I went a little off topic.<p>BTW...One other reason these people switched was due to my using a 36&quot; mower which lays more stripes and looks neater than the 61&quot; this guy was using on smaller residentials.

[Gus]

Hey guys I`m not my brothers keeper so what other companies do are of no concern to me <br>and the opposite should apply too. My rates<br>and all other aspects of my business are the<br>sole responsibility of me! You can call me a &quot;grass cutter&quot; or &quot;landscraper&quot; or whatever<br>who cares? Companies such as the ones mentioned help my business by getting me new customers who want good service. This whole brotherhood aspect thats a part of other industries is a crock that just reeks of marxsist pragmatism. The bad operators in our chosen profession reflect badly only on themselves and to suggest otherwise is in my opinion wrong-headed. My goal in this business and life in general is to function in a manner that is productive,profitable and<br>in a way that satisfies me first.

[Scraper]

Gus: It is how society as a whole perceives this industry, not your particular customers that will have a direct correlation on what they feel our industry is worth.

[Toroguy]

Good discussion...Steve I feel your pain, the hispanic population is growing. They need to be fluent in English to succeed. The ones who are, have a greater advantage over the spanish only crowd. Likewise for us gringos, learning Spanish can be an asset.<p>Our image to society should be no concern...I stereotype Accountants as geeks, but who will I call with tax concerns? There are top notch accountants, overworked, burned out and crappy ones too.<p>Continuing to improve customer and contractor service isnt the most glamorous part of the business. Sometimes it tastes like a &quot;Sh*t sandwich&quot; I just spit it out when nobody is looking and hope the long term benefit will out weigh the taste of it.<p>Scrapers situation is a perfect example.

[paul]

It seems to me that it's not the workers that are causing the problem, it's the management of the workers. If no supervision is given then what do you expect from them! They don't know the limits of the contract. <p>As far as talking to them let me ask you this question if you where having a house built would you talk to the junior carpenter or to the builder? The builder right then why talk to the guy mowing the lawn. Can tell you this the guy mowing the lawn is getting paid alot less than the carpenter. <p>How many guys who have men working for them tell them what the limits of their contracts are. If a customer comes up to one of my men they are directed to call me on the Nex-tel and I can answer their questions at any time or will come out to the job site and talk with them, that is the biggest part of customer service. <p><br>----------<br>paul<p>ps. to Paul's post. This is Mrs. Paul and I just wanted to say better communication is the key all the way around. I had two American boy-next-door types trimming my parkway tree for the village. I asked them to quit because they were chopping the hell out of it. They totally ignored me. I was told by the Village that an arborist was on the job as supervisor. Well, dingbat, it was the supervisor that ignored me. SO GO STRAIGHT TO THE TOP BABY&gt; CAUSE IT IS THE TOP GUY'S ATTITUDE THAT TRICKLES DOWN!<br>

[Gus]

Not to sound like a half-ass philosopher but<br>society as a whole are for the most part &quot;incurably ignorant&quot; and most go by what they heard. They don`t know and don`t know that they don`t know. To many in this world the perception is the reality so to avoid dealing with such madness my business philosophy is what has been called rationally selfish. My whole point is that I`m committed to running my business as I see fit and justly reap the<br>rewards of my efforts. <br>

[Charles]

Society as a whole is encouraging this type of incompetence. We had an article in our local paper about people being riped off by local building contractors. Their sat the sad faces of a couple picture in the paper who was out 6000$. I had no sympathy for them at all. They were trying to save money and hired a con man who was not a license contractor and checked no references. People are getting the lowest bids and not caring about quality. Until the job either doesnt get finished or it look terrible when it is finished. Same in our business. Consumers trying to save a few dollars and blaming everyone but themselves when the quality is not there. We got people moving to mexico and bragging about their low cost of living their including taxes. While mexicans around them live in poverty. Lowballers survive because their is a sucker born every day and some people never learn. You get what you pay for is usually the general rule.

[nlminc]

Charles, Perfect!! Could not have said it bette. Our brains must be on the same frequency!<p>Chris<p>

[Gus]

I agree that lowballers have plenty of victims but in reality they really don`t affect my business. I`m able to add as many as I want and by mid may I`m usually all booked up. There are still plenty of people out there who are willing to pay for quality. I also hire things done and I usually go with the guy who acts the most professionally and can back up what he says. These guys usually arent the lowest in price but not necessarily the higheast either.

[cutntrim]

There are no bad employees - just bad employers. Be careful who you hire and how you train them...they reflect on you as an owner.<p>----------<br>Dave in S.Ontario<br>www.cutntrim.com

[firedog]

I second that. It all falls back on training.

[steveair]

Hello again,<p>Thanks for all the responses. One thing I would like to clarify is the 'lowballer' situation. Maybe I didn't make it clear, but I'm not talking about the quality of 'lowballer's' work here. I'm talking about legitimate businesses, ones that make millions a year. Like I said, we have huge companies like brickman working around me, and still, their customer service is no better than anyone else's. Very surprising to me. I remember going on a interview with them once, and all they did was talk about how stream lined they were, about how they have this great business plan, about how they had x amount of accounts, about how they had this great system, etc. etc. Well, for all the talking and for the fact that they are just flat out &quot;HUGE&quot; and have a giant organization, I just don't see any difference. <p>There work is no better than any others, there prices are just the same, and there customer service, the same, just plain and crappy.<p>As mentioned before, not one crew seems to have a person who can deal with the customer.<br>At least, the one company has a person that does come around once in a while to talk with the client, but it seems very short visited, and nothing ever seems to get accomplished. It's funny to watch and talk to this person. Some days she's out with the client, and the next she's out weedwacking because they were short on labor. <p>What kind of message does it send to her client when, she, the person in charge, is out there weedwacking because none of her laborers showed up that day? Not a good one, I can say that. Though I think it shows that her company and herself are dedicated to the account, I also feel it shows that her company is having problems with the account. If your out there weedwacking in Khakis and a dress shirt that day, then go to discuss some matter with the client who is use to seeing you all &quot;nice and tighty&quot;, you can bet that client is gonna be a little in question about what is going on. <p>One more comment was on the fact that the outside labor is not 'as cheap' as what people perceive. This, I feel is going to start becoming a HUGE problem soon. As one of you mentioned, the spanish laborer are beginning to 'smarten' up and demand higher wages. I've seen this myself, and am right with you when you say they are not cheap. It's very common to see guys getting 10-15 an hour. <p>What does this mean? It means big problems, in many ways. First, the outside help that we are bringing in to replace low paying positions are now becoming high paying positions again. Kind of a catch 22, but funny when you think about it. Here the industry is, seeking 6-8 dollar and hour help, and guess what, no that &quot;cheap&quot; spanish help is demanding 10 hr. What's going to happen when spanish people won't work for laborer's pay anymore? I guess we'll have to find some other third world country next.<br> <br>To me, the pay scale is just ridiculous. People think they should start out at 10 hr when they are 16 and have no experience. They are nuts. I remember starting out at 7 hr and was dam glad for the money. Before that, I was making min. wage as a short order cook. No one understands the value of a dollar these days. Especially no one understands what a dollar of work is worth these days. Everyone thinks there Bill Gates and think they should be billionaires instantly. Sick.<p>Another problem with the high wages we beginning to see spanish labor make is with perception again. I don't know about by you, but by me, the perception is this. <p>Spanish labor = Cheap labor<p>Is this true? I don't know, does 12/hr sound cheap to have someone who doesn't speak English working for you. Obviously not. However, heres the big problem. Society as a whole, still sees spanish labor as being cheap. When people see spanish people working for you, they instanly assume that they are illegals and are being paid in rice or something. Even if they are a little more aware, they still think they are only making 5 an hour. This is a major problem. <p>I have no spanish helpers for my landscape business, but am always getting asked, &quot;why don't you get some of those cheap mexicans&quot;.<br>I'm sure you have all heard this one. People are so ignorant. Once in a while I'll even explain how that 'cheap labor' just doesn't exist, but people have the idea inbedded in their heads. No what I say, they still can't believe that spanish workers make the money that they do. Nor do they want to believe it.<p>A huge problem that we have brought upon ourselves. Not only will we soon be paying our spanish laborers just as much as we would have to pay anyone else, we will have to deal with the perception that they are getting paid less. Very troublesome matter.<p>Just a few more thoughts<p>steveair<p><p>

[nlminc]

Steveair, You must mow large fields all day and do lots of thinking:) I bet you just broke the record for the longest post. You have some good points though.<p>Chris

[steveair]

How'd you guess chris! <p>The fields seem larger everyday, the jet noise gets louder, and the bugs get bigger. Say, does that west nile disease affect your brain..........<p>steveair <br>

[Jason]

Steve,<p>Why not just hop into a helicopter, fly upside down very close to the ground and mow that way. Seems like it would be a big time saver. Plus you could really get a good look at the turf, see all the problem areas. :) Only thing is I'm sure the FAA wouldn't be thrilled. :)

[yardsmith]

This whole post is part of the reason I have a small crew, or just me & one other. I'm small enough still that if there's a problem, the owner is on the site (me) & can fix the problem, usually before the customer is aware that there was a problem. I want them to be as worry free as possible.<br>As for young adults (18+) & pay scale; I laugh & ask them, 'So, how much experience do you have operating commercial equipment, & tell me about your knowledge of lawn types, lawn diseases & pests, & cures, etc.' & remind them nobody starts at the top. I worked at Wendy's in high school for 3.35 an hour, & it sucked. Too bad I didn't live in town or I coulda started earlier in life, & been that much farther ahead.<br>I know lowballers come & go, but it seems continuous with revolving cycle of new ones, & I lose potential customers for a year at a time, waiting for them to screw up,then I get a call.<p>----------<br>Smitty ô¿ô<br>

[HOMER]

We are fortunate in the area I'm in to not need that outside, foreign help. I'm sure it's only a matter of time, and I'm sure some of them are hard working individuals just looking for a better way of life.......but......that perception thing will always be there and here in the deep south, well, I don't think my customers are ready for it! This entire discussion revolves around parenting if you wnat to get right down to it. If parents made the precious baby get off his soft ass and do something besides play Nintendo or Play Station they would have a better work ethic....This whole idea that you want your kids to have it easier than you is crap. The younger work force wants to have what Mama and Daddy have had to work all their live's for right now. Sweat isn't in the picture when Walmart is air conditioned! I work my ass off everyday and left the air conditioning and phone and bull because of the &quot;low pay&quot; i was getting after 16 years on the same job. My mama didn't raise no fool, and neither did Mexican mamas. They worked their asses off down south and they are used to it, so now when you want a hard worker willing to sweat all day where are you gonna find one? Not in suburbia, they have their hand out to Mama getting a free ride. It won't last forever, the free ride anyway, sooner or later little Johnny is gonna have to get his soft ass out there and do something productive. Parents, thats the problem.<p>Homer

[lawrence stone]

smitty wrote:<p>&gt;I lose potential customers for a year at a time, waiting for them to screw up,then I get a call<p>I enforce a policy where if a customer changes to another service I end the business relationship forever.<p>I make this known to all new customers.<br>This way they understand I will be a<br>ping pong ball in their little game.<br>

[Lazer]

Spanish labor is cheap labor. Hire 1 Hispanic for $12/hr. or 2 others for $8/hr. EACH. Same amount of work gets done, costs are far less with the hispanic. (I'm generalizing, of course, no need for an anecdotal response.)<p>For a better understanding, look at Home Depot: huge, profitable, poor customer service. $ and finished product mean everything, customer service means nothing.<p>...just a sad reality.

[southside]

When you get contractors in,they should still be small enough so that you can talk to<br>&quot;the man&quot;. Talk to the horses head,not the<br>horses arse. You can't expect laborours of<br>any nationality to be able to think for themselves. They don't get paid to think,just do. Thats why they are called<br>labourors.<p>Karl<br>

[little green guy]

hey HOMER not all teenagers are spoiled little panzies that play nintendo all day and have everything given to them. I'm still in high school and I work my A$$ off. I have my own buisness and work atleast 40 hrs a week plus talk to customers,fix equipment and go to school everyday.

[HOMER]

Little Green Guy,<p>You are the exception, not the rule. I would love to have someone like you working for me! If you already have a business started and working your ass off as you say then you are the kind of guy every employer is looking for. The problem is, and you know this as well as every one on here, there are a handful of teenagers like yourself and a boat load like I described. Why you do what you do must have something to do with your up-bringing right? Keep up the good work and good luck.<p>Homer

[little green guy]

hey Homer yah it did have something to do with my bring up. My dad owns a construction co.and when i was little i always went to work with him. Ive been around this kind of stuff all of my life. I never had anything given to me either. As for people wanting to hire me when i get slow i do work for another landscaper in town and even run crews for him.

[HOMER]

I didn't mean to offend anyone in particular, that was a general observation only, I see a lot around here that are lazy and a few that have some drive in them, it always goes back to the parenting. You will raise yours as you were raised so there is hope!<p>Homer

[Stonehenge]

I think Lazer hit the nail on the head - when they do twice the work of a white boy, it is cheap labor. I'm not sure there wouldn't be a little customer backlash in my area with a Hispanic crew, but the perception is certainly changing here, albeit a bit slowly. They are getting the reputation of being tireless workers who go without complaint. <br>The Nintendo playing, hair coloring, tongue piercing, late sleeping, complaining kids we have by me are now getting the reputation THEY deserve. They believe they are entitled to the good life. The Latinos understand Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness are gifts. <p>If the company they (Latinos) work for doesn't provide good service, it's that company's fault for not accounting for that issue. As for what's fair or right in hiring practices - I own a business. My decisions are predicated solely by the efficacy of those decisions for the business. <p>If you're trying to pursue social goals in leiu of business ones - I'll see you in the poor house.

[CGS]

You hire Mexican laborers to do labor not to run your business, that's your job. You should learn to speak Spanish so YOU can communicate with them.<p>In my experience, all my clients are happy with me (Mexican Owner and my crew. They tell me they would rather hire a company runned by mexican owners (of course english speaking) and laborers than a company runned by GRINGOS. They say they always do half a$$ jobs and lazy. Most of my clients were from a major Landscape Company. One of my clients were very ticked off cause their guys kept on complaning that their backs were hurting and that is why he could not climb up a latter to trim a tree, so who ended up trimming it and still made some money out of it...Us Young Mexican Hard A$$ Workers.<p>Some tell me why you charge so expensive than XXX Landscape Co. Inc. to prune my tree, Because we are still young and quick and are able to climb and pick up debris with our man power. If we were older then you would not hire us. No offense.<p>If a potential customer comes up and asks how much to cut her lawn to one of my laborers, of course he is not going to tell her because it is not up to him so he contacts me on our nextel phones and tells me about a potential customer accross the street so I come out and give her price. Simple as that.<p>So if the GRINGO owners let their crew unsupervised White or Mexican they are always going to do a half A$$ job at every site. So learn how to speak spanish or hire a bilingual foreman/supervisor and pay him big money.<p>p.s. I would rather hire someone either Mexican, White, Black, Chineese, etc. that is hardworking, initiative, and able to use common sense to operate an equipment the safest and fastest way.<p>Steve, those guys are not responsible to make decisions on mowing your strip of grass without their boss says it's o.k. So yes you should have to go through all the B.S. to get the 20ft. strip mowed. <p>If you go up to a white person and ask him to mow it, I'm sure he would tell you the same thing &quot;Contact the Office&quot; buddy.<p>I really hate talking like this, but you guys started it and hopefully this type of conversations stop immediatley.<p>This is not going to help you or me in our businesses and lets just stick to &quot;Commercial Lawn Care&quot; not racism or whatever you want to take it as.<p>I will have to tell all my colleges here in my area that this forum is putting down us Mexicans - Racism. <p>They are getting their first computers and are eager to see this site...Well no more and I think I will not visit this site either. Not that I make any difference in this forum, but you can keep this forum for Gringos Only if all I care.

[steveair]

Hello,<p>My point about the strip of grass is that why can't the foreman just say O.K. Does he lack the intelligence to write down on a piece of paper that he mowed a 20 ft. strip of grass and needs to tell his boss later that day that he did? I guess so.<p>I understand scheduling and the fact that they have to do a 'X' amount of work that day and can't be adding work on when every customer asks, but for something along these lines it needs to be done.<p>Really, the foreman is just another laborer these days. It seems like they have no understanding of anything except the task at hand, mow grass and weedwack, which is a great shame. <p>Simple, I said just mow the strip and bill me for it and tell your boss about adding it on to the weekly schedule for me. If he says no, then you know what, screw him. I will hire someone else, someone that I can communicate with. I do not have time to be calling people up and playing phone tag for a week over a 5 dollar add on. <p>Who's fault, the contractors. If they don't have 1 min of time to write down on a piece of paper my concerns, then I don't have time to deal with them. <p>I have to be on both sides of the coin. A superintendent one day and a contractor the next. When doing my side work, I always make a point to address my clients concerns on the spot. I expect the same from the people I hire. <p>They are fools if you ask me. I have no issue with money, and price is not as big of a issue as the fact that the job is being done properly. Instead of adding work on, good work, the contractor seems to just not care about the fact that he could add on more work right here. Makes no sense. Why would you want to go out and find other customers when the customers you have need more work already?<p>No sense to made out of any of it.<p>steveair

[Charles]

Their we go some people playing the race card. The primary language in the country(for now at least is english). A mayjor part of the Lawn Care business is being about to communicate with the customers. I dont think ii is racist at all to request that everyone learn the language of the host country. If a customer ask you as an employee a question. You should be able to direct them in english on who they need to contact and how to contact to get their answer if you do not know it. You should also know if it is something simple like a 20 foot of grass that if you could mow it or not.

[Superiorlandscaping]

I am not going to lie to you. I have worked with mexicans for the last 7 years. They may not speak english, or have the ability to tell you whats the latin name of a particular tree, but damnit they are hard workers. I was soooo suprised to find this out. Where i used to work we were at the yard at 330 and driving by 345am. Never once was a mexican employee late for work. There have been tons of times where a puerto rican or dominican and even white guys have shown up late or not all. They do have faults though, most of them are illegal aliens, most of them cant speak or write english for ****. The biggest problem i have had working with migrant workers is there lieing. Occasionally accidents happen but bosses want their employees to tell them immediately. The mexicans would some times hit a tree with a mower, break a rake, or even leave a barrel at a site and not tell the boss. I feel that is kind of weak. As a business owner now, I am hiring some of the good mexicans i have worked with over the years. I will never send them out with a guy who can speak english well and speak properly. Customer Service is a key to success. And when a customer wants something done they shouldnt have to call the office and then have the crew come back. Its a waste of time. My former boss use to tell the mexicans all the time to take classes and learn how to speak english and he would turn them into foreman and give them 17-18 dollars an hour. None of them did though. Theres my two cents.

[65hoss]

This is a 2.5 yr old thread. Boy does this one go back a long way.

[crazygator]

OK my turn to add.

I am solo and will stay small for this very reason. I picked up a small condo unit mid season. Several comments were as stated above. "If I have a question for one of your workers, will they understand me???"
"Yes ma'am, I am the workers"...LOL

Its not a black white red yellow issue. Its not I am american and your not. Its a matter of do you understand and can you communicate, plain and simple. This in return is customer service. If you offer customer service you will survive and grow. You will get referrals and will get your asking prices. Why? Simple, customer service.

[bilbo7021]

this is the very reason I will be happy to tell any new customers this fact: when you shake my hand at the close of the sale, you're shaking the hand of the guy who's doing the work.

[Gravely_Man]

I really thought this one would get ugly but it has remained nice. Several customers have mentioned this in the past that they want someone they can talk with directly. Communication is always key.


Gravely_Man

[AztlanLC]

As a mexican I feel offend it by some of this comments, but on the other hand I look at my own situation and I can clearly prove that at lot of this comments are wrong.

I started working for somebody else a real nice american guy he had a good size company but wasn't making much profit, whe I started working for him I couldn't speak english but always tried to do thing the best that I posibble could, if some customer would approach to me and tell me to do some extra work we would do it, just because somebody doesn't speak english that doesn't mean it won't understand what your trying to say.

I helped him grow the company and then one time he decided that he was retiring, my mistake was that I told em that I was moving back to mexico in couple of years, so one winter when I went to mexico he sold it to other guy which said he was going to hire me, but I was ready to work for myself so I started my own company, now after 2 year I have about 150 mowing accounts plus about 100 snow plowing + landscaping, I have 3 guys working for me mexicans too, why? Im not a racist like steveair but nobody wants to work in this kind of business, I have to bill at about $40.00 per hour but if I send an american guy he's going to twice longer than a mexican to complete a job, not because he's weak or anything else is because they don't like this kind of work, and I don't blame'em I think schools is the best place for this kind of people, and as long as we take deductions our of the paychecks from our employees this country can afford to have a strong economy and have all this programs for people who doesn't want to work, when they go to school and graduate as lawyers, doctor or whetever is they like we'll be there to mow their houses, wash their dishes, fix their houses, take away the garbage, etc.. I hated when people complaing about mexican because they don't speak english but they don't want to do the work neither, probably it would be better if your company would force you to do the whole complex and not hire any outside help then you would realize that a 20ft strip it's nothing.

And also the person to blame would be you at the same time because if you are in charge of hiring someone you should make sure you have a direct way to contact some one in cases like this.

I alway give all of my customers my cell phone number, home phone, business phone, email, someday I'm mowing not because we are short of staff but because grass it's growing more than usual, I'm not going to hire an additional workers just for those extra days, and when I go and see someone with clippings in my pants they don't care.

For those people that say they are going to stay solo beacuse of this, let me tell you that running a business is not about you showing at every property but making sure everything get done the way it's suposse to, Imagine if michael dell or bill gates would it stay solo only for the fear of people seeing a differnt persong dealing with them, yes they started solo.

CGS I hope you don't leave this forum because not everybody thiks this way.

[AltaLawnCare]

Originally posted by 65hoss
This is a 2.5 yr old thread. Boy does this one go back a long way.

Thats the truth!
Seems funny to see posts by Lawrence "Banned" Stone, and Lazer.

Homers' slowed down a lot too.

[crazygator]

Originally posted by AztlanLC
For those people that say they are going to stay solo beacuse of this, let me tell you that running a business is not about you showing at every property but making sure everything get done the way it's suposse to, Imagine if michael dell or bill gates would it stay solo only for the fear of people seeing a differnt persong dealing with them, yes they started solo.

First, if you think you know how to run MY business......whatever dude. Second, if you think I want to stay solo because I dont want other people, or in other words other races......whatever dude. My wife is mexican, so I quess I have a real problem then huh.

My thoughts, opinions and the direction I want my business to go are not because of another color, but because as in your words "making sure everything gets done the way its suposse to."

I am not slamming anyone, nor any race. Peace and love to all brother! :angel:

[Lawn Sharks]

Welcome to the real world.

Immigrants work harder for less pay.

Immigrants show up on time.

Immigrants do great work.

Remember you are all immigrants. The next time you call someone a "wetback" think of this. A Mexican only had to get his back wet on the warm waters of the Rio Grande and your ancestors came across three thousand miles of freezing cold ocean to get here. Who's smarter?

When your ancestors arrived in this country, unless they were from an Anglo Saxon heritage, didnt speak English either. They worked hard and became part of what America is all about.
I love it when someone says they are proud to be "Italian" or "Irish" and have never set foot in those countries and then proceed to disparage our neighbors to the south.

We are all wetbacks. Don't get pissed off that the new ones are smarter than your ancestors. It is bigoted rednecks that don't adapt to working with non-english speaking residents that give our industry a bad name.

Keth

[Likestomow]

Keith - how many immigrant workers did you say you employed?

[Lawn Sharks]

None right now because I am a solo operator.

I did however manage a large department at a a software company for over two years in California and had 65 people under me. Most of my workers were Chinese, Mexican, Indian and Middle Eastern immigrants as they outperformed the typical American 2 to 1. Fewer sick days, fewer "personal" days, on time everyday, no abuse of the Internet while at work. Fantastic, dream employees. Actually had to convince one of my Chinese workers to take more than a day off to get married. Gave him two weeks and a bonus for a honeymoon trip and he called me every other day saying he would be back. Try to find some punk American kid wearing his pants around his knees that would do that. Oh wait, he is behind the dumpster smoking reefer.

The reality is that the American Dream still exists but too many American kids grow up playing Nintendo, smoking pot and watching MTV to give a darn about grabbing it. Enter the new Americans.

Keth

[Likestomow]

Keith – I don’t agree with your comments:

"Don't get pissed off that the new ones are smarter than your ancestors. It is bigoted rednecks that don't adapt to working with non-english speaking residents that give our industry a bad name."

Where did you ever get these screwy ideas? How can you make such blanket statements?

First, my ancestors came to this country legally. They didn’t immediately become a welfare drain, instead they paid taxes! Are you saying this makes them less smart than an illegal alien? My ancestors and many others were ETHICAL and HONEST. If you know illegals, then you know that very little about them is true or honest... that is why they are called “illegal”.

Second, I have some experience working with Latinos in this industry. Yes they are hard-working, but sometimes the language barrier becomes just that: a barrier. I don’t speak Spanish, and therefore I haven’t found a way to employ a worker who doesn’t speak my language. He may be able to do good work, but if he can’t understand instructions about how the work is to be done, he is no good to me. And I might add, that is not my problem, it is his.

You seem to indicate that if a person doesn’t “adapt to working with non-English speaking residents” then he is automatically a “bigoted redneck” and that person is giving our industry a bad name. Frankly, I don’t understand how you came up with that radical opinion.

[crazygator]

Originally posted by Keth
The reality is that the American Dream still exists but too many American kids grow up playing Nintendo, smoking pot and watching MTV to give a darn about grabbing it.

Amen to that. Or they all want to start where Mom and Dad are right now, after 50-60 years of hard work, saving like a dog watching every and all pennies and struggling at first.

No respect for what they have or get or even just no respect. Here again this all translate's down into our topic of customer service. If your employee's have no respect, then you will have no customer service. If you dont control this within your company, then your company will have no customer service.

Sad to say even us young guys have seen this change in our life times. Phone a large company or most companies today and what do you get? Voice mail, or 1000 menu options and never get to the right department. Leave a msg for someone and boom, no return call, no customer service, aka no respect.

Strange to hear about all the advancements in communication technology, and yet it seems like we are farther from being able to communicate than the cave man.

[SLS]

"It is bigoted rednecks that don't adapt to working with non-english speaking residents that give our industry a bad name."

So, I suppose that a person should learn 50 different languages...just in case??? You may have a Romanian, or a Chinese, or a Kenyan, apply for a job. Wouldn't want to appear a bigoted redneck, now would we?

It seems logical to me that if a person goes to another country seeking employment that it would serve that person well to learn the language of the country that they are moving to.

If I decided to mow lawns in Russia I would not be so lame as to expect the Russians to learn to speak english just to accomodate me. Yes, I would attain a working knowledge of the Russian language....before I ever set foot there.




When in Rome.........

[crawdad]

Originally posted by Keth


.............. Try to find some punk American kid wearing his pants around his knees that would do that. Oh wait, he is behind the dumpster smoking reefer.

The reality is that the American Dream still exists but too many American kids grow up playing Nintendo, smoking pot and watching MTV to give a darn about grabbing it. Enter the new Americans.

Keth

Please refer to rule 15, you are talking about something against the rules of LS

* Incites or makes mention of illegal activity, such as how to build a bomb, counterfeit money, drugs, etc. Absolutely NO topics with mention of illegal drugs will be allowed.

[Lawn Sharks]

crawdad,
Sorry bout that, thought I was covered by not using profanity.

Keth

[crawdad]

Oh, don't apologise to me, I was kidding with you. Talking bad about substances never gets a complaint, but a poster had some good points about legalization, and the thread was closed. I find this selective enforcement interesting.
Crawdad

[Lawn Sharks]

I see your point. Next time I will be sure to post from one of the states that already has reduced marijauana possession to a civil and not criminal offense. (less than one ounce)

Alaska, California, Colorado, Nebraska, New York, North Carolina, Maine, Minnesota, Ohio, and Oregon

;-)

Cheers,
Keth

[Lawn Sharks]

Likestomow,
I don't think I referred to any of the workers that I mention as illegal. People assume that because a Latino worker does not speak a lot of English he is illegal. Many are here legally. There are aliens with work authorization and then there are illegal aliens.

There are laws against the hiring of illegal aliens and I believe they should be enforced. I lived for a short time in Australia and had to obtain a work visa. I don't think it should be different here.

If you know of an lco who hires illegal aliens you may want to consider telling someone about it.

"A person (including a group of persons, business, organization or local government) commits a federal felony when he:

*assists an alien whom he should reasonably know is illegally in the U.S. or who lacks employment authorization, by transporting, sheltering, or assisting him to obtain employment,

*encourages that alien to remain in the U.S., by referring him to an employer, by acting as employer or agent for an employer in any way, or

*knowingly assists illegal aliens due to personal convictions.

Penalties upon conviction include criminal fines, imprisonment, and forfeiture of vehicles and real property used to commit the crime. "

If you feel that our industry is being harmed by the use of illegal aliens then you have the full power of the federal government to assist you in eliminating their use in your area.

Maybe I was a little harsh with my "bigoted redneck" statement earlier and I apologize. I had a cup of coffee yesterday in the local coffee house and there was a guy who complained on and on about the local hotel industry using Jamaican women to clean the rooms claiming they took jobs from "locals" and that they were "illegals".
First of all, they are not "illegals" and second the hotels hire them because they can't get the "locals" to stay for more than two weeks without a sick day or just not showing up to do the work.
Caught me on a bad day.

Cheers,
Keth

[brucec32]

Originally posted by steveair
Hello again,<p>Thanks for all the responses. One thing I would like to clarify is the 'lowballer' situation. Maybe I didn't make it clear, but I'm not talking about the quality of 'lowballer's' work here. I'm talking about legitimate businesses, ones that make millions a year. Like I said, we have huge companies like brickman working around me, and still, their customer service is no better than anyone else's. Very surprising to me. I remember going on a interview with them once, and all they did was talk about how stream lined they were, about how they have this great business plan, about how they had x amount of accounts, about how they had this great system, etc. etc. Well, for all the talking and for the fact that they are just flat out &quot;HUGE&quot; and have a giant organization, I just don't see any difference. <p>There work is no better than any others, there prices are just the same, and there customer service, the same, just plain and crappy.<p>As mentioned before, not one crew seems to have a person who can deal with the customer.<br>At least, the one company has a person that does come around once in a while to talk with the client, but it seems very short visited, and nothing ever seems to get accomplished. It's funny to watch and talk to this person. Some days she's out with the client, and the next she's out weedwacking because they were short on labor. <p>What kind of message does it send to her client when, she, the person in charge, is out there weedwacking because none of her laborers showed up that day? Not a good one, I can say that. Though I think it shows that her company and herself are dedicated to the account, I also feel it shows that her company is having problems with the account. If your out there weedwacking in Khakis and a dress shirt that day, then go to discuss some matter with the client who is use to seeing you all &quot;nice and tighty&quot;, you can bet that client is gonna be a little in question about what is going on. <p>One more comment was on the fact that the outside labor is not 'as cheap' as what people perceive. This, I feel is going to start becoming a HUGE problem soon. As one of you mentioned, the spanish laborer are beginning to 'smarten' up and demand higher wages. I've seen this myself, and am right with you when you say they are not cheap. It's very common to see guys getting 10-15 an hour. <p>What does this mean? It means big problems, in many ways. First, the outside help that we are bringing in to replace low paying positions are now becoming high paying positions again. Kind of a catch 22, but funny when you think about it. Here the industry is, seeking 6-8 dollar and hour help, and guess what, no that &quot;cheap&quot; spanish help is demanding 10 hr. What's going to happen when spanish people won't work for laborer's pay anymore? I guess we'll have to find some other third world country next.<br> <br>To me, the pay scale is just ridiculous. People think they should start out at 10 hr when they are 16 and have no experience. They are nuts. I remember starting out at 7 hr and was dam glad for the money. Before that, I was making min. wage as a short order cook. No one understands the value of a dollar these days. Especially no one understands what a dollar of work is worth these days. Everyone thinks there Bill Gates and think they should be billionaires instantly. Sick.<p>Another problem with the high wages we beginning to see spanish labor make is with perception again. I don't know about by you, but by me, the perception is this. <p>Spanish labor = Cheap labor<p>Is this true? I don't know, does 12/hr sound cheap to have someone who doesn't speak English working for you. Obviously not. However, heres the big problem. Society as a whole, still sees spanish labor as being cheap. When people see spanish people working for you, they instanly assume that they are illegals and are being paid in rice or something. Even if they are a little more aware, they still think they are only making 5 an hour. This is a major problem. <p>I have no spanish helpers for my landscape business, but am always getting asked, &quot;why don't you get some of those cheap mexicans&quot;.<br>I'm sure you have all heard this one. People are so ignorant. Once in a while I'll even explain how that 'cheap labor' just doesn't exist, but people have the idea inbedded in their heads. No what I say, they still can't believe that spanish workers make the money that they do. Nor do they want to believe it.<p>A huge problem that we have brought upon ourselves. Not only will we soon be paying our spanish laborers just as much as we would have to pay anyone else, we will have to deal with the perception that they are getting paid less. Very troublesome matter.<p>Just a few more thoughts<p>steveair<p><p>

I'm sure some hispanics made decent wages, why shouldn't they ? But I KNOW a lot don't. Like the ones my dad picks up in his Lexus to pick up sticks on his propery because he isn't going to pay me $60/hour to do it and won't hire a real company with a crew that needs work in the winter. These guys make $8 cash money, off the books, pay no taxes, and they work slow as molasses. Who wins? Father and the guys who get the day's pay tax free. Who loses: Businesses who play by the rules, taxpapers who support their social needs, prospective employees who are discriminated against because they can't speak Spanish to be able to deal with Spanish speaking works, victims of increased crime, women who get sexually harrassed by packs of hispanic men doing their thing at convenience stores, etc, etc.

Funny, I don't see a big call for high paid skilled immigrants to be let in instead of low skill, low education, low paid ones. Wonder whY/

[LAWNGODFATHER]

This is like this cause you teach you kids to be LAZY, Greedy self centered.

Of course there still are the dire hard drug attic alcoholics too.

Now you wonder why these LCO's hire Hispanic or foreign labor.

BTW there is nothing wrong with a chain of command, and trust me Brickmans customer service is not lacking, you simply have to point out to the customer that approval is needed to do anything out of the norm for that specific crew.

Nothing wrong with insuring you get paid for all services preformed and rendered.

America was built on foreigners so now you are putting your self down. good work.

[JimLewis]

Here are my thoughts in the original question......

First of all, I realize the frustration of having all-hispanic, non english speaking workers. But I think the alternative would be even more frustrating. I've TRIED hiring American guys for my work force. In the beginning, I noted the dilemas you speak of. And I decided it would be neat to run a business of primarily people born and raised here in the U.S. I wanted clean-cut, young, nice, english speaking guys that everyone would like to see on their property. I didn't always hire guys like this but I did hire many such guys over the year. And here's the problem with 99% of them;

* They don't want to work. And once they realize this is hard work they quit.

* 80% of the time, I found out later there was a reason they were not doing something more glamorous. Either they didn't have a valid license like they said, or they owed back child support, or they had a drug problem, or all sorts of other problems.

* They call in sick all the damn time.

* They have no work ethic and they work slowly.

* They lie.

* They complain.

* They are late on a regular basis

* They don't have any common since.

* They can't follow basic instructions.

* They have an attitude problem and/or no respect for authority.

* They don't take good care of my vehicles or equipment.

* They abuse privilages like cell phones, draws, use of company vehicles, etc.

ON AND ON AND ON AND ON!!!!!

And so after years of experience with these schmucks, I've come to realize that on average hispanics are much better workers - ENGLISH OR NO ENGLISH!

With hispanics, about 80% of the time I get someone who;

* Shows up every single day on time

* Almost never takes a day off for any reason

* They have excellent work ethic and stamina

* They respect authority as long as you respect them.

* They don't complain. At least not to me.

* They follow directions well.

* They have a valid drivers' license.

* They wash my trucks and take care of my equipment without me even asking!!!

* They use common sense, problem solving, and show a willingness to learn.

And ON AND ON AND ON.....

So I choose workers with these qualities - English or no english - Because the alternative is to have a company made up of losers who show up late, complain, have "issues", disrespect me and my clients, abuse my property, and don't use common sense!!!

Now, that being said, I still think it's important to have someone at every jobsite who speaks english. And on every crew I always have at least one guy who is fairly fluent in english. My customers deserve to be able to talk to the employees if needed. But even if I couldn't find guys who spoke english, I'd give up that before I'd go back to these lousy, lazy, americans ANY DAY OF THE WEEK!

[jeffex]

Steveair , your observations are true. These are market conditions created by both sides of the equation. My experience in the commercial market gave me the impression that price was KING. That customers assumed that cheaper was better and that anyone could mow a lawn. Would your company be willing to reverse the trend and move toward value pricing that reflected quality and customer service in the price structure? I got a chance to look at brickmans pricing on work for a large cemetary. They bid at $27 per man hr. I can do better in the residential market and not have to use a labor force that in my opinion will put me out of business in the future. I like discerning customers that expect more , however it is the same old question of chicken or egg. Who came first the cheap immigrant labor or the customer demand for cheaper prices?

[brucec32]

Originally posted by Gus
Hey guys I`m not my brothers keeper so what other companies do are of no concern to me <br>and the opposite should apply too. My rates<br>and all other aspects of my business are the<br>sole responsibility of me! You can call me a &quot;grass cutter&quot; or &quot;landscraper&quot; or whatever<br>who cares? Companies such as the ones mentioned help my business by getting me new customers who want good service. This whole brotherhood aspect thats a part of other industries is a crock that just reeks of marxsist pragmatism.

Gus, that's a nice thought, but unfortunately we don't operate in a vaccum. What other guys do definitely affects your bottom line, whether you realize it or not or can quantify it or not.

<<<<The bad operators in our chosen profession reflect badly only on themselves and to suggest otherwise is in my opinion wrong-headed>>>

Sorry, they reflect on all of us. I can't tell you how many times customers have expressed outright shock at the fact that I can speak proper English and speak intelligently.(well, somewhat). They are assuming that the guy cutting the lawn will be either unable to speak English, a moron(think Forrest Gump), or a shady character who can't be trusted. Why? Because of past experience. I can't tell you how frustrating and annoying it can be to have to overcome these assumptions to gain their trust. Thankfully, most of my customers are old timers, but the new ones always take a while to get trained to see us differently.

Your comment about not worrying about the competition or being concerned about what they do is a positive way of looking at things. It reminds me of a guy I worked for briefly at a previous job. Smart guy, but not a businessman. When we informed him that our prices were too high, our customer service lousy, and the competition down the street was more reasonable, he said "we're not in competion with them" because we had a better location. Well, 3 months later he was gone and the company had turned from years of being profitable to barely breaking even. I took over, restored a sense of sanity by changing things(better service to justify the prices and diffirentiate us from the competition), and it recovered and did well. But continuing to ignore the business environment we were in would have been disasterous.
In a way, your theory was right too, since we just concentrated on making ourselves better and it worked out, short term. But within a few years after I left, the reputation for the whole "industry" was so bad that nobody came anymore, no matter what this company tried to do. It's now out of business.

[brucec32]

Originally posted by Lazer
Spanish labor is cheap labor. Hire 1 Hispanic for $12/hr. or 2 others for $8/hr. EACH. Same amount of work gets done, costs are far less with the hispanic. (I'm generalizing, of course, no need for an anecdotal response.)<p>For a better understanding, look at Home Depot: huge, profitable, poor customer service. $ and finished product mean everything, customer service means nothing.<p>...just a sad reality.

I'm curious why you would expect someone from the wealthiest nation on earth, raised in relative comfort and luxury, raised watching TV shows about how wonderful it is to be rich and famous, to be as motivated to work at $12/hour as someone who comes from a place where $12 would be a good DAY's pay? (more realistically they would be "induced" to come to work at a starting wage far below that)

Yes, we have some lazy people in this country. But I'm hearing $12/hour tossed around as being "good pay". Maybe in 1980, it was. But factor in inflation and it isn't. Real (inflation-adjusted) wages for "working class" Americans have FALLEN since 1972. Heck, I felt underpaid at my first corporate job when I made $25,000 with a free company car in 1988. I certainly wasn't rich, the only way I saved anything was by having two or three roomates and not having vehicle expenses. My friends all made in the $30's-$50's and were just starting out themselves. So $12/hour is not a wage that will properly motivate an American to trade a cushy comfy job with full benefits for a hot, tiring, physical one with few benefits, seasonal hours, weekend work, physical discomfort on a daily basis, no job security, little advancement potential, etc. Too many of you are working from the assumption that things are always supposed to be as they were and that lawn workers ARE SUPPOSED TO BE POOR! They're not! They're as rare as hen's teeth. In a true free market economy they should make HIGHER PAID, not LOWER! Why aren't they? A substitute for them in the form of newly arrived immigrants by the literal millions each year.

The fact is, there was, until the immigration laws started being broken and ignored, a severe shortage of young, fit workers willing to do this work. That means wages were going to rise to levels high enough to draw them out of their parents' basements, coffee houses, video arcades, office jobs, and Walmarts. It's called supply and demand. Mass immigration and the non-enforcement of immigration laws has knocked the ladder of success right out from under them before they had a chance to climb it, just as things were starting to turn their way for a change.


It takes about $50,000 AFTER TAXES to raise a couple of kids in a middle class home, if you account for PROPER levels of insurance, rainy day savings, car, education fund, etc. Who do you think pays for these things for Hispanic families whose primary breadwinner makes only at most $24,000 a year, BEFORE TAXES (assuming he even pays any)? THE REST OF US DO, via higher taxes, medical costs, uninsured motorist costs, lower property values(you see what your house sells for after 8 Mexican bricklayers move in next door, complete with 8 pickup trucks parked in the yard), and lower wages for "working class" Americans.

Charity begins at home. I say don't muck up your own country by tolerating corruption, crime and ignorance for generations, and then want to come here to esape it. Grab a gun or a shovel or a stick even and go have your own revolution. The very people who should be changing things in these countries (young males of military age) are fleeing and taking the easy way out. Bad enough if they just want to come here to become Americans, but they don't. They just want our money....for now.

The net result of the continued system is a gradual moving towards a 3rd world standard of living in the US for anyone in fields immigrants can work in, and increased ethic tensions as within a generation or two these immigrants don't feel like accepting 2nd class status any longer and demand dominance in politics and culture in which they will then be a full 1/3 of the population.

There are already rumblings of "taking over" "by any means necessary" from some groups. Enjoy your 2nd civil war. Hope it was worth it.

http://www.aztlan.org/homeland.htm

[Mueller Landscape Inc]

brucec32

Well Said.

[65hoss]

$12 per hour isn't bad for unskilled labor. You can't expect a weedeater swinger or hole digger to make $40k and you still stay in biz. College educated...thats another story.

[brucec32]

Originally posted by 65hoss
$12 per hour isn't bad for unskilled labor. You can't expect a weedeater swinger or hole digger to make $40k and you still stay in biz. College educated...thats another story.

I'd respectfully disagree slightly. $12/hour ain't terrible compared to what's out there now, I agree. And certainly someone who's experienced is worth more than a guy who just showed up and isnt' producing much.

But you say "You can't expect them .....to make $40K" as if it were written in stone somewhere. That's the problem. People are still thinking in terms of the old economy where labor WAS plentiful and educated skilled labor was rare. Now it's just the opposite.

The fact is, if everyone were required to "play fair", enforce our borders, obey the labor laws, etc...that wage may or may not be what the market settles into for such work done in America by Americans. As costs of providing your services rise, you'll have to raise prices, but so will your competition. Yes, some may not be able to afford you any more, but many others will because their wages, no longer suppressed by competition from immigrants, will rise correspondingly. Economies have a way of working these things out to maintain equilibrium. Good reliable productive help is scarce. Scarce things are supposed to cost more. People assume Americans can't/won't do this work and work hard at it, but has anyone really ever tried?

I say no, because nobody has paid wages sufficient to attract "better" American workers away from other jobs in which they can make $30k-$40k a year. Right now, they can't pay them that, because if they did their competition would undercut their costs by hiring immigrant labor or paying off the books, and put them out of business.

A lot of Americans, because of our relatively recent cultural bias against people who do physical work, would rather work for a little LESS MONEY if they got more prestige or better work conditions. So let them. Conversely, there are, I suspect, many motivated, hard working people who are now languishing in some boring retail or desk job making $25,000 or so who would much rather be outside on a crew mowing grass or creating landscapes if it paid about the same or better. People too often confuse "smarter" with "better" and "educated" with "valuable". They're not always the same thing. A "dumb" but hardworking guy who loves working outdoors will be better than a "smarter" guy who shows up for an $8/hour gig but would really rather be doing something else, especially for such low wages.

As one of my professors in college said, "we can't all go around selling each other life insurance" and that this was a big flaw in the economy that was developing at the time (mid 80s). There are a lot of Americans out there who simply can't sell life insurance or practice law, and we'd better make sure they have decent paying jobs to go to, or one of these days they're going to simply vote themselves OUR money.

Already the bottom 50% of the population pays very little or no Federal Income Tax, preferring to lay that burden on high acheivers. Toss in 30 million immigrants currently making low wages and wanting more out of life and you have a receipe for a socialist revolution that basically confiscates wealth of acheivers to give it to lower paid people, at the point of a gun.

So, basically, you can either pay them now or pay them later. But one thing I know is, importing labor to solve the problem is a temporary quick fix solution, one that if taken to extremes, will mean America as we know it will cease to exist.

One hallmark of 3rd world nations is a small upper class of "elite" owners of capital, a large population of low paid, low skill workers, and a very small or non-existent middle class. Given the choice of running a register at McDonald's for $6.25/hour or voting to tax away your money, what course do you think a lot of people are going to take?

Oh yeah, and our south-of-the-border friend who refered to Americans as lazy "gringos" repeatedly in one breath and then accused anyone who disagrees with him as being "racist" in the next...

In case you're not aware, that's basically the same as a Klansman using the "n" word. It's certainly not a term of endearment.

[jeffex]

After reading the other responses I would like to respond to CGS . I for one have a great deal of respect for the Mexican workers. My choice to not hire is not based on race. I feel that people like yourself will take over this industry through not only hard work but skill and business knowledge. I want to protect my territory by not training my competition. As you stated , young Mexican workers are getting computers and learning English. Thier drive and desire is what will make them successful. I have a son who is learning Spanish and I hope to have my business help him earn money for college instead of working for someone else. I know if he wants to succeed in the future of landscaping he will need to speak Spanish though. He may not want to do this work at all but he is preparing now just in case.
My best worker has a step grandfather who is Mexican and runs a lawn crew. We are friendly and trade customers referrals. Right now the only advantage I have over him is that my customers are used to dealing with English speaking workers. As your young workers learn English and take away that advantage good ole' American workers will have no edge.
As far as the racism you feel coming from this forum, I think you'll see you have to have thick skin no matter who you are here!!!