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View Full Version : Repairing a heaved paver patio/walkway


79kz400
09-13-2005, 07:13 PM
I've found this forum to be a better resource than a tech school i once attened. You guys really know your stuff!

The Setting : My solo operation business is still in the experimental stage but if i'm still around next spring i'll incorperate and really go at it. Most of my work is mowing and trimming and its been 6 years since i did any real hardscape work.

The Situation : An elderly customer is requesting that I fix her paver walkway. The walk has heaved 3" in places and sunk 1" in others. This walk is about 15 years old and the installer is long gone. Dimensions are 10'x10' on the patio (marginal condition) and 4'x8' for the walk. The customer is legally blind and keeps stubbing her toe on the heaved areas.

I can pull the pavers up and relevel the entire thing in 3 days myself. I want $400 for this and would consider renting a compactor but will probably tamp it by hand. - This is what she wants.

For $700 I'll get a helper (and a discount on aggregates) and rebase the whole thing - I suspect that it was never properly based to begin with because i've never seen one heave that was set properly. All i have at this point is some basic hand tools and a basic laser level. Not wanting to be a dirtbag doing shody work this is what i'd like to do.

Your thoughts and criticisms please!
_________________________________________________________________
*Jackson Lawncare*

DVS Hardscaper
09-13-2005, 08:29 PM
We dont repair interlocking pavements. We rebuild from scratch.

Sounds like it needs completely rebuilt.

As in lift the pavers, remove whatever was used for the base, and start over again and use proper materials and methods.

To do it right, we'd get around $3000 - $4000.

mbella
09-13-2005, 08:57 PM
DVS is right, rebuild it. The other guy is long gone, so guess who will be held responsible after you patch it? The only way to guarantee it's done correctly is to start from scratch.

PAPS Landscape Design
09-13-2005, 10:26 PM
We dont repair interlocking pavements. We rebuild from scratch.

Sounds like it needs completely rebuilt.

As in lift the pavers, remove whatever was used for the base, and start over again and use proper materials and methods.

To do it right, we'd get around $3000 - $4000.


Wow, you get $3-4000 for a 130+/- sq ft job? 22$ -$ 30a sq.. huh..I need to relocate to your area it seems.

NNJLandman
09-13-2005, 10:57 PM
Easier said then done IMO. I would start from scratch, if its heaved and lowered the base has to be redone, which means you have to take off the leveling layer of sand, so figure Another ton or 2 of QP, followed by sand, then extra pavers so you can recut, because it'll take you forever to fit the cut pavers back in....so i dunno...my 2 cents. You price should be a little bit higer as well. Good Luck.

Jeff

mbella
09-13-2005, 11:24 PM
Easier said then done IMO. I would start from scratch, if its heaved and lowered the base has to be redone, which means you have to take off the leveling layer of sand, so figure Another ton or 2 of QP, followed by sand, then extra pavers so you can recut, because it'll take you forever to fit the cut pavers back in....so i dunno...my 2 cents. You price should be a little bit higer as well. Good Luck.

Jeff

Jeff, he should remove the sand and all of the base aggregate and inspect the subsoil.

neversatisfiedj
09-13-2005, 11:28 PM
Yeah really I'll do that job for 2400.00 LOL

olderthandirt
09-13-2005, 11:38 PM
Jeff, he should remove the sand and all of the base aggregate and inspect the subsoil.

Absolutly ^^^^ customer is elderly AND legally blind double the normal acooutabilty, No way in he!l can you take a chance on any thing going wrong.
BTW-- Same state and only a little North of you and to remove and do it right with out seeing it $3-$4 k is about right

NNJLandman
09-13-2005, 11:49 PM
Easier said then done IMO. I would start from scratch, if its heaved and lowered the base has to be redone,
Jeff


Can you guys read thats what i said....START FROM SCRATCH.

Jeff

PAPS Landscape Design
09-13-2005, 11:50 PM
Sorry I dont buy that a that a job this small (132 sq.) would get 3-4000$. God bless you if you get 22-30$ a sq., good for you, but its just robbery as far as I am concerned. A job this size for start over to finish would take us about 4 hrs if I could get equipment in there, i would have a hard time sleeping knowing I just robbed a client for $2500-3500 profit in like 4 hrs of work.

olderthandirt
09-13-2005, 11:58 PM
Sorry I dont buy that a that a job this small (132 sq.) would get 3-4000$. God bless you if you get 22-30$ a sq., good for you, but its just robbery as far as I am concerned. A job this size for start over to finish would take us about 4 hrs if I could get equipment in there, i would have a hard time sleeping knowing I just robbed a client for $2500-3500 profit in like 4 hrs of work.
Some like to work for peanuts :dizzy: You give a bid if the customer accepts why would you feel guilty ? You like leaving $$$$ on the table?

PAPS Landscape Design
09-14-2005, 12:04 AM
Some like to work for peanuts :dizzy: You give a bid if the customer accepts why would you feel guilty ? You like leaving $$$$ on the table?


no ones talking about working for peanuts or leaving money on the table. I just dont buy that people are paying 22-30$ a sq for a basic 132 sq. ft paver job. You may hit a HR job like this once in a while (3-4000K).. but dont tell me this is what your getting on all your jobs.. i dont buy it. Not to mention this guy is talkin about re-doing the job with the existing pavers as well...

79kz400
09-14-2005, 01:55 AM
K looks like i was WAY off again. I came up with an inital labor estimate using the WAG method. And then i quadroupled it. The homeowner said she'd spend $500 to fix after i discused my general estimates with her and no one else will even show up to look including Wade and Gatton Nurseries. If i redid the whole thing with new pavers she couldn't see it anyhow but it would be very stable and doubtless last forever.

Setting and Soil : this is very near the river and there is dense clay with limited machine access from the driveway.
Poor drainage which i would blame for the heaving. - For a proper fix I planned to dig down 12", compact, geobase - i've never geobased but it can't be hard, add 6-7" roadbase, compact, and 1.5" sand. The house was recently lightly excavated by B-Dry basement systems and the soil has settled near the foundation. B-Dry put the pavers they removed back and they're all sinking.
A major swarm of mosquitoes has take residence and you can't use enough bug spray.

Liability is a concern but it is mainly with the relatives and not the homeowner. I don't think i can talk her into the $2500 it would take to redo it and put in a nice circle kit. Keep in mind that i'm going back to school and this was/is an experiment at self-employment that has gone rather well.

BTW Great input! Thanks to all! My biggest problem is that i find myself not charging enough for services. Unemployent is high here and there's lots of lowballers. I believe firmly in doing a quality job.

My front field at home (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y163/79kz400/lawns003.jpg)

edit : I think the experience is worth any money i might leave on the table...

olderthandirt
09-14-2005, 02:26 AM
no ones talking about working for peanuts or leaving money on the table. I just dont buy that people are paying 22-30$ a sq for a basic 132 sq. ft paver job. You may hit a HR job like this once in a while (3-4000K).. but dont tell me this is what your getting on all your jobs.. i dont buy it. Not to mention this guy is talkin about re-doing the job with the existing pavers as well...

remove and separate the paver, excavation, disposal of old material supplying and installing base materials reinstalling the pavers. This is what the job would be consisting of and you can do it in 4 hrs? how many man hrs are you using? Below is your quote

i would have a hard time sleeping knowing I just robbed a client for $2500-3500 profit in like 4 hrs of work.

So from what you have stated you would do the job for $500 ? 3-4k job and you feel you "robbed a client for $2500-3500 profit in like 4 hrs of work."

That what I don't buy #1 you can do it in 4 hrs and if you can then you have more than yourself. You have equipment and probably 2-3 additional employees and your charging $125 an hr. for all! You better figure your cost,
You and JUST one other guy can make $60 a man hr x 4 hrs =$480 add in the cost of a skidsteer and a dump truck conservatively another $480 + the cost of materials or base again conservatively $200 = $1160 :dizzy: :dizzy: :dizzy

kris
09-14-2005, 07:08 AM
I love discusions on man-hrs .... it's a good thing.

lift and redo ... hm ... Just my guesstimate

3 guys ... 1 hr to lift stone= 3hrs

dig out depending were they have to get rid of spoils.... this does sound like a crappy access that you forget the machine and ramp onto truck....

same , at least 3 man hours

lay it...probably about the same ..another 3

finish..cutting,snap edge, sweeping, etc about an hr again... another 3

I'm up to 12 hrs before travel or trucking. ..probably a 16 hr job

I know what the experienced guys are saying...12 hrs for a pallet and 1/3 of stone!... you have to be kidding.

Truth is if I sent 2 guys out to do that job I would bet that I'm really close with those hrs.... best part of a day would be gone.

PAPS Landscape Design
09-14-2005, 04:16 PM
1st off when the hell did I ever say I would do the job for $500???????
I wouldn't leave my house for that. I would go into this job as if it were every other ordinary basic paver job, because thats what it sounds like. Charge her around $15/ sq. from start to finish and be done 4-5 hrs with 4 men. I would rip the entire job with the excavator, cut out for my new base as I go and be done with that in about 1-1.5 hr. and have all QP installed withing 2 hrs from start bringing in with the skid steer. Pavers laid and cut within 4-5 hrs from start. We did a patio not to long ago for charity at childrens center a few months back it was 1100 sq. and we knocked it out in 7 hrs., trust me I know my man hrs... that job we hammered on because the labor was coming out of my pocket since it was charity.

DVS Hardscaper
09-14-2005, 04:38 PM
"Wow, you get $3-4000 for a 130+/- sq ft job? 22$ -$ 30a sq.. huh..I need to relocate to your area it seems."

"I just dont buy that people are paying 22-30$ a sq for a basic 132 sq. ft paver job. You may hit a HR job like this once in a while (3-4000K).. but dont tell me this is what your getting on all your jobs.. i dont buy it. Not to mention this guy is talkin about re-doing the job with the existing pavers as well..."



Yes guys that is correct. For small jobs it could be as high as $40 / SF. Large jobs, maybe $15.00 / SF. Just like when you buy one 20 oz soda, you pay $1.29. Buy a 6 pack you pay $0.89 / soda.


And here is how:

I charge for every minute and every spec of material affiliated with EACH and EVERY job.

1. We charge for loading the equipment and tools on the truck(s) at the shop, and we factor in unloading once we arrive at the job site. We then facor on loading the tools and equipment when we're finished and unloading when we return to the shop.

2. We charge for travel time. Its estimated into the job cost. We charge per employee to and from for each day estimated.

3. With existing pavers in place there is time involved in removing them and setting them out of the way till the guys are ready to re-install.

4. The existing base material is no good. We have to haul that away. there is time involved in loading and transporting, even though we dump spoils on our own property. Thats another charge.

5. There is reseeding and strawing involved. Always.

6. The site must be cleaned up at the end of each working day.

7. Even though its a small job, you still have the same costs associated with bringing in 6 tons of crusher run base, sand, etc. as you do with 22 tons.

You still have the same mobilization fees with a 100 SF job as you do with a 3000 sf job. They are fixed costs. A larger SF job will offset those costs.

If you charge for travel time as you better be doing, if a job is 30 minutes away and you have 3 employees, the time is the same per day, whether its 100 SF or 3000 SF.


Even with our smaller jobs, we NEVER do a job in under 2 days. Our company derives from perfection and quality. We do not compete with anyone. We have more material that goes into our jobs, and we do everything as perfectly as humanly possible. Quality takes time. And time is money.

And if you know your annual operating expenses and what it cost you per man per hour to operate and if you break down every little task affiliated with each job, you'll find you can not do a job for less that $3500 (assuming you are a legit biz with full time employees) :)
For A Taste of Who We Are And What We're About, for those that don't know me (http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y212/ScapeItWS6360CJ7/7cd1f965.jpg)

kris
09-14-2005, 05:03 PM
A you'll find you can not do a job for less that $3500 (assuming you are a legit biz with full time employees) :)
[

DVS we can do a job for less than $3500. Yes we are legit :waving: I don't think you can paint it all with such a broad stroke ...... what if you had to plant a few caliper trees at 500 a piece?
Really, I could go on and on but you seem to know it all.

olderthandirt
09-14-2005, 05:20 PM
1st off when the hell did I ever say I would do the job for $500???????

Right here

Sorry I dont buy that a that a job this small (132 sq.) would get 3-4000$. God bless you if you get 22-30$ a sq., good for you, but its just robbery as far as I am concerned. A job this size for start over to finish would take us about 4 hrs if I could get equipment in there, i would have a hard time sleeping knowing I just robbed a client for $2500-3500 profit in like 4 hrs of work.

your # $2500 - $3500 now subtract that from $3000 -$4000 that was mentioned and would cause you to loose sleep and the math works this way
$3000-$2500 equals $500 or $4000 - $3500 still equals $500

DVS Hardscaper
09-14-2005, 05:23 PM
OH dear. I didn't mean to upset anyone.

Kris -

#1. you mentioned "trees" :)

This is a hardscape forum . My statement was in reference to hardscape construction.

#2. I was responding to previous comments regarding $3500 - $4000 cost, in terms of the THREAD at hand :) (which this is in response to your "know it all" insinuation)

#3. But you mentioned "a few". Define "few". 6 trees at $500 each is $3000.00

As you know, I never unit price anything. If I'm pricing plantin 4 trees, I will calculate mobilization fees, travel time, material costs such as trees, stakes, wire, mulch, etc. I will then calculate production hrs and theres a lump sum cost. Load time and unload time I have found for my company to be less for landscaping install than it is for hardscapes. So I personally have found a difference in amount of time required to be factored into a landscape install job.

Once I have a cost to DO the job, it may equate to $300 / tree or $987 / tree. the more trees, the less per tree. the less trees, the more per tree it will average to be. It may come to be a total of $2,650.00. So many variables with trees. Also, Usually one can drive to a job site to plant "a few" trees with equipment and trees on one truck in one trip. Hardscapes you have lotsa tools, aggregate, sand, and pavers, block, etc. You typically can not report to a hardscape job with all tools, equipment, and MATERIALS in one trip! thus, most hardscape contractors will have material suppliers deliver the materials, which then kicks in material delivery fees, thus making that 100 SF job cost a pretty penny !!!

Didnt mean to ruffle your feathers Kris. I was just initially responding to something else! :cool2:

PAPS Landscape Design
09-14-2005, 06:03 PM
Right here

your # $2500 - $3500 now subtract that from $3000 -$4000 that was mentioned and would cause you to loose sleep and the math works this way
$3000-$2500 equals $500 or $4000 - $3500 still equals $500


Once again... explain where it says i would do the job for $500.??? It says I would feel guilty coming out ahead 2500-3500$ profit on a $3000-4000 job.. in only 4 hrs of work. It says nowhere that I would be charging them $500 for anything, just read it.

Good for you guys if your getting $40 a sq ft. for installing pavers on a (100 sq job) as stated by JVS, its a bunch of BS though.

PAPS Landscape Design
09-14-2005, 06:06 PM
[QUOTE=DVS Hardscaper]

"And if you know your annual operating expenses and what it cost you per man per hour to operate and if you break down every little task affiliated with each job, you'll find you can not do a job for less that $3500 (assuming you are a legit biz with full time employees) :)


This could possibly be the dumbest thing ever said by an individual on this site in all the years this site has been around.

kris
09-14-2005, 06:34 PM
This is a hardscape forum . My statement was in reference to hardscape construction.



Ok sorry .... just seemed like such a broad statement.

I can assure you that we also consider everything when pricing jobs.

Here is an example of a hardscape done today because we had a few hours because of rain .... very small spit in stack wall .... 70 pcs and 35 caps(found in our "boneyard")...no filling ..customer is going to do it. It took the guys 12 man hours . we were able to load all the materials on one truck(easily) ..stone, crush tools etc.
$1440.00 ...so comes in around 120 an hour gross... I can tell just from the gross that it is right in line and profitable.
It was right off a hard surface and the kind we save for wet weather work.

79kz400
09-15-2005, 12:24 AM
Well it just goes to show how the best laid plans go to waste. I called the customer today and *the other guy* had finally shown up. He is going to rip up only the walk, ignoring the slightly heaved patio and "rebase it". Rebasing it seems to involve "two bags of sand" and a plate compactor. - Word of mouth hence the quotation marks. He is then going to reset the pavers and "seal them together with silicone which will prevent heaving"...
.......
... for $400. :waving:

WOW! What a bargan! I wonder if he charges for snow removal? - The ice due to poor drainage on the blind ladies walk is just one of those forces of nature i guess.

I know there will be 36 comments on "the other guy" but lets face it folks. I don't care and my name won't be on the job. I would have liked the experience but oh well. Yes its terrible. No we can't do anything about it.


I have not taken pictures because i was trying to install a ball joint in a nissan sentra - My DD car because it gets 40mpg - and Advance Autoparts gave me the wrong part again.

Thank you all for your time and i learn more every time i visit!
_________________________________________________________________
Jackson Lawncare

olderthandirt
09-15-2005, 12:28 AM
You just learned one of the most important lessons ever
"Sometimes the best job is the one you did'nt get"
But on the bright side they still have your name & # and will probably call after winter.
Good Luck

79kz400
09-15-2005, 08:21 AM
lol. thanks for the encouragement Mac!
________________________________________________________________
Jackson Lawncare

DVS Hardscaper
09-15-2005, 06:28 PM
"Seal pavers together with silicone"!!!

Thats hilarious! All them joints! It'll take the dude forever!


Its funny. very funny.

But sad at the same time.

Its scary when unqualified people do paver work. Just like a roofer working on a heating and air conditioning system.

motoraced
09-15-2005, 06:49 PM
and remember, the pavers need not be purchased, so your only buying base at about a penny a pound...less than 100 bux in materials....i wish i could steal from people too..

mbella
09-15-2005, 07:47 PM
and remember, the pavers need not be purchased, so your only buying base at about a penny a pound...less than 100 bux in materials....i wish i could steal from people too..

You guys pay that much in Maryland?

DVS Hardscaper
09-15-2005, 07:48 PM
Actually for 132 SF materials in MD would cost roughly $265.18 with 5% tax included in th number.

thats 5 tons of cr8 at 5" thick after compaction. 304 SF of geo-textile fabric. 1 ton concrete sand. 1 bag joint sand. 6 snap edge and 46 spikes (based on 46 LF of outside edge), and $30 allowance for turf restoration materials (seed/straw).

Not all jobs require any materials at all.

Labor, labor burden, equipment costs, and profit add up!

mbella
09-15-2005, 08:00 PM
DVS, that was my bad. I misread the response. Looking again, maybe I didn't. By a "penny a pound", I assumed Motoraced meant just the aggregate.

Sanlorenzo
09-04-2007, 02:44 PM
complete excavation and removal of base. Start from scratch,charge accordingly and stand by your work.