$18 a man hour. Are you kidding me?

[RYAN]

Just got a call from a property manager saying all my numbers looked good on the bid exceept the mulch. The property had a decent amount of mulching and the property manager said he would provide the mulch and that he wanted to know what it would cost to install it. I bid $40 per man hour and now he tells me that is way too high and that some other fool bid $18 per hour. Is there really an idiot out there bidding that low or is he pulling my leg. I think this is my first real lowballer encounter. Not sure if I should laugh or cry.

[kutnkru]

I have seen guys buy mulch for $22/yd and bill it at $37/yd. Welcome to the world of BIG business. I would advise your potential customer to make sure that he has a copy of this guys insurance before he contracts the job out to him.

Just my .02
Kris

[KirbysLawn]

I would kindly explain that $18 and hour minus 30-40% taxes, insurance, & payroll leaves zero for the company, can't do it.

[bob]

Question. If he gives the mulching to MR.$18 an hour, can you still get the rest of the work?

[RYAN]

good question. He said he will call back in a day or 2 and I can ask him then. At the time I was in a state of disbelief

[Freetime]

From reading your post it sounds like he needs to go jump in a lake. First he is buying the product himself cutting into profit you would make on material. Now he is yanking your chain on hourly rate. Property Managers do not get paid for how much spend but how much saved and you are low man on the pole.
(Yank on a dogs chain long enough and he will bite your a$$) don't let him set your price.

sorry but I just can not stand tight-wad @#$ iths that try to get over on you!

[brandy]

You said the rest of the bid is good, at 18 an hour he must expect you to drop your guys off and let them do the work. Or I would give him a set price on the job. How much do you think the job is worth. Not by the hour? I never do any jobs by the hour anyway!!! Sometimes in the spring we are running with the wheel barrows and it wouldn't be fair to only get an hourly rated job, we would have to work normaly and we wouldn't make any money that way!!!

[eggy]

Are you in Indiana? That sounds like the rate that the overcrowded..mowing/mulching area in South central Indiana bid.....Thats why I am pondering escape from the biz!

[joshua]

ok granted that i'm still only 18, i owuld never kill myself for only $18 a hour. some companies around here pay their guys $20 if there good enough. i can see in a year or 2 that company will be holding up signs on the side of the road, lowballers will cut for food. ohh wait they are now.

[Stinger]

I would politely explain that if all he want's you for is labor then it's gonna be pretty expensive! Heck like would this guy want to spread mulch for $18 an hour, I don't think so.Then why should he expect you to? Especially when your not even getting your cut on materials! Dude this is just a bad deal all the way around and I would run from it. Go ahead and let Mr. $18 an hour mess it up and then Mr. property manager can pay you to make it right!

[geogunn]

tell the PM that you too will spread for $18/hr. and then take twice the time to do the job.

GEO

[joshua]

ok just a thought i know they probably don't have 1 but, is it possible that they have a finn bark blower???? nah, i doubt it but wouldn't that be fun to work one of those??? check it out at http://www.finncorp.com

[LoneStarLawn]

Having a bark blower would increase overhead giving more reason for higher costs per hr and it would take less time so the amount would come out the same.

[tazman]

Tell the Property Manager you are insured, bonded and licensed and you do quality work. If he can find someone to do it for $18/per man hour, then let him. Why is the rest of your bid good and this guy is trying to cut you down on this one item? I would almost debate taking the contract if the guy is going to treat you like this.

[eslawns]

I thought I did mulch cheap. I get hardwood for $16.50/yd and charge $45/yd to deliver and spread it, with a $90 minimum, and at 6+ yds, I charge $40/yd. I would charge more but around here we have some people who are convinced that $15-$20/hr is good money. Maybe on the clock working for someone else, but when you pay the light bill...

[awm]

This might be the only place a temp could be worth it for me. 12 per hr for the temp and i dont care if he is slow.
Just go by and neat it up or whatever after there done.

[TJLC]

Guys, count your blessings. Down here $18-20 per hour is DAMN GOOD MONEY. When we first moved here 2 1/2 years ago I was working in a factory for $5.80 an hour! It was a HUGE raise when I started my lawncare business. I am from Cincinnati so I know the wages are much higher up north.

[GREG R]

lets see if you
have your girlfriend sit in
the truck and do paper work or
bring liquids or a rake or shovel
every now and then thats
another $18 per hour
bring your dog along for protection
thats another $18 per hour
and yourself another $18 per hour
a co-worker another $18 per hour
thats $72 per hour
hey... the pm didn't say productive people

[eggy]

That is why we will all be doing something else soon...here it is like that..and yes guys do good work for 18 a hour too...Mowing and mulching isnt rocket science...overhead is super low for a buisness.....So competion will keep increasing every year..lowing prices every year as the cost of living increases Lawnsite questions will be...I need a filter for my ranch king..and which wal mart brand trimmer do you reccomend..the main banner ad will be kmart lawn and garden


[Edited by eggy on 03-16-2001 at 03:41 PM]

[dhicks]

Heck take the job and work extra slow as previously mentioned.

[JB1]

EGGY
is it that bad in seymour, what about all the plants around there and columbus. from driving through there you'd think it was a good area.

[grade]

Bid 20.00 per man and make the work last twice as long.

[Charles]

Do people live in shacks and eat out of the dumpsters in Fla? How do you survive for under 6$ per hour? After taxes and expenses 20hr is not peanuts when your're self employed. I dont understand why fla people work for such low wages. We here it all the time on here. I guess the rich and famous and the retirees treat you people like slaves while they enjoy the good life.

[plow kid]

The toledo div. of forestry offers any type of doubble cut hardwood mulch for $7.99 to $9.99 a 3 yd. scoop. This stuff is real nice!

P.S. I once cut a lawn for a guy that made me one hellofa T-Bone steak and a salad.

[TJLC]

You can only get what the market will bear. Florida is a right to work state full of retires. General labor pay is very low because of this fact. Being self employed is about the best way to go. My wife and I do fine. We own a nice house,1500 sq ft, 3 bed, two bath, garage and the vacant lot behind us and a 14x34 ft screened in ground pool. We don't hesitate to spend money if we want something. We have beautiful weather ALL YEAR LONG. I pay cash for all my equipment (all commerical) and have no payments. My wife makes good money also and carries all the benifits. I don't think it's always how much you make but how well you manage it. Florida is a great place to live and work, in my opnion. I lived in Cincinnati for 38 years and would never go back. I think people should stopping knocking FLA. We work just as hard as the rest of you. $18-20 per hour goes further down here than it would up north. I'm sorry but I had to vent.

[4 Saisons]

doing it for 18 and twice the time...nah, better stay home or find a better job. Let another kill himself with this non-profits rates...This is the only way to educate customer about paying the right price.

Denis

[skyphoto]

Well we are in brason MO and the market here will not pay more than 16.00 to 18.00/hr for a self employed lawncare company ...now an employee gets paid 6.00 to 6.50/hr so the 18.00/hr starts to look mighty appealing to someone @ that 6.00/hr even if ya have to carry a debtload and headaches you will never go anywhere working for mel-tillis or Moe Bandy tearing tickets This is a town of alot of $ but it is not reflected in the pay scale....Love this town but Florida has a warm climate!!!!! Who could bash that!!!!

[HOMER]

I would have to say that $18.00 an hour down here would be a treat! I can find some high school kid to install the "provided" mulch for $5.50 an hour, the rest is mine and I haven't touched it. So what's wrong with making $12.50 an hour to do nothing but find a willing kid? Nobody, and I mean nobody down here would pay their help $10.00 to $12.00 an hour, not when you can find it for half that! Like TJLC said, the cost of living down here is far less, these folks are tight!!!!!!!!!!! I never give an hourly rate because of that reason, I just give them a flat figure and bust my ars so I can achieve my goal, which in the end will be as much as ya'll Yankees are getting, just not publicized.

[lawnman_scott]

I am in FL also, and although i get more than $18/hr my heating bill wasnt as high as most poeples last month. oh thats right i dont have a heating bill. We make good money down here being self employed.

[Skookum]

This is a topic where the one man show shines. This is where a one man show can compete and take away a account from a bigger company with all the overhead of employees, extra trucks, equipment, etc...

I myself try to get $30.00 an hour as a bare minimum for straight labor projects. But, If I had no other jobs lined up that would conflict with this job, or I wanted the account bad enough, or I was worried about feeding my family, $18.00 a hour is better than $0.00 an hour!

[T-Bone]

RYAN

I would just tell him my wife has odd jobs at the house
that pay better than that.

Not very professional like. But I guess if they have a pair that hang that low then it just dosn't seem to bother me.

[TJLC]

Thanks to all who spoke up in my favor! We are all here to help each other, not to bash,right? No matter what state we live in, I'm sure we are all doing the best we know how. Thanks.

[Clinton D. Wagner]

<b>I've got a question, just how many CY's
are You talking about installing? and how
many hour's do you think it will take?</b>

Thanks,

[Charles]

In South Carolina as in alot of other places in the US you have to charge a premium seasonal rate. Especially if you dont have alot of contracts. There is so much down time where you are not being paid at all. There is jan 15 through March 10th. There are the summer drought months when business drys up. There is the change from summer to fall when business slacks up. There are the rain days. But during your downtime your bills and payments keep rolling in. You should not look at your hourly wages alone. You should focus on your yearly net income after taxes and other expenses. If i charged 20 an hour my yearly net income would suck bigtime. It would not be worth the hassle of running a biz in the first place. Lets look at it another way. As you get older health insurance expenses will eat you alive if you are not covering that in your charge to customers.
We have been over this and over this on here. This is not bashing fla or any part of the country but it is letting you know that alot of other people doing the same job you do are making 2+ times as much as you are and maybe that will educate you on the potential of what you should be producing.
Self employed means you have to pay your owns benefits, vacation pay, retirement, insurance, self employment tax, fuel, equipment maintenence, employees etc.
A person making 10$ and hour is really making more than that when the benefits are included. While if you are making 18$ per hour being self employed you are really making alot less than that.
This is not bashing but trying to bring the industry up as a whole. I had a customer tell me one time. "Hey they make alot less than this in FLA" So what you charge can effect alot of others. Just because the cost of living is less means that you should charge less in doing the same type of work that I do is just cutting your own throat.

[TJLC]

If you try to charge more than the market will bear, they WILL go with someone cheaper. I have lost bids over a dollar or two per cut. I think if you are happy with your living then that's all that matters. I know people up north are making more than me but, I am not up north, so I have to take what my market will bear. Trust me, we are doing fine. Fla is a great place to live and work.

[Charles]

That is true TJLC. SC is not a rich state by far. Alot of people on this forum are making alot more than me. I get above average for this state as a whole. But people on this forum saying they making 18$ per hour and are better off than working in a regular job are being delusional. IN running your own business you have to count ANY hours spent involving that business. Take your gross per year minus all your expenses and taxes and devide that by all the hours spent in your business. NOt just count actual labor. Hours like talking to customers, driving to each job, advertising labor, maintenence labor, answering business phone, education etc. Each time I think I may be charging too much i think of all the things I do that I dont get paid directly for and all the benefits I dont receive. Running a biz is not like a 9 to five job working for someone else and you have to treat it that way. NOw i am not talking about retirees with other sources of income or parttimers.Or people who dont work legit. i guess big crews in fla who control whole neighborhoods with matchbox size yards charging 20$ per yard could make pretty good.

[Chip]

The other day I went to bid on a full service account. I asked the owner why he was asking me for an estimate. He was honest saying he was looking for best price because of his fixed income and family health problems. I asked him what he payed before. He said $20/man hr. and said the previous guy used mexican labor. I had to hold back from laughing. I explained to him that the other guy probably paid his help under the table. In this area if you are legit its not worth your time to send a crew to work at those rates unless you have nothing else to do.

[skyphoto]

How can we say that it is crazy for someone to make 18.00/hr being self employed if it allows them to spend more time with there family??????? A REAL good job here is 8.50/hr with no bennys and this is 70-80% of the job market here in the ozarks Im not stretching the truth! Even if being self employed you end up with 10.00/hr which is not hard to do at 18.00 even covering all your exspenses mentioned in the other post Health ins. taxes repairs truck etc. Plus the feeling that you have that you have more control over your life is priceless! Please dont get me wrong I understand that most are out to make alot more than me but being there when my kids get off the bus or going to a school play anytime is worth the extra headache of owning my own business and still having money in the bank.
I know this subject has been run into the ground but just feel like alot of people seem to be focused on the all mighty buck and not anything else.

If you can get 30.00/hr gosh, get it but around here you will have alot of free time on your hands trying to charge that.

[RYAN]

The job is around 8 yards of mulch and he says he is going to buy ALL of it bagged. Not sure why but that is what he is doing. Personally I think it is a waste of time doing this labor for $18 per hour. In the four hours it takes to do this job I could either be doing a lot more profitable jobs or handing out a few hundred flyers to bring in a few more mowing accounts. The way I feel is if I get the job great if not no big loss. I can find a few resi's to replace it. I just can't believe people in this area would go that low to get this job. There is a lot of better paying jobs out there. Maybe he is new and needs the work.

[Clinton D. Wagner]

<b>Maybe He is new and needs the work.....
but you can't afford to have him do the job...
Because it would help him stay around and...
Just maybe under bid you on the next job that
you do need...

I would take the job for $16.00 per hour ...
But give a flat rate of $96.00 thats 6 hr
= $96.00 and send one of my 6.50 hour men to
do the job and tell him I would be back in 4 hrs
to pick him up...so have it done.

And if the manger still says that I'm to high because
Mr$18 said he would do it for $90.00...
I would just say...but he has nothing in there for you!
I was thinking that if I get this job at the $96.00 I could
put a little in your pocket too " Like say .06%" just for
leting me do this job for you....It's just to bad we could'nt
have gone with our first price....LOL

Heres How it would breakdown...
Job Income $96.00......100%
Labor cost...$26.00......027%
Sales..6%.....$06.00.....06%
Net...............$64.00.....67%

Now 67% of the dollar is not bad...LOL

You are right, Go out and hang a few hounded flyers...
But I would do the job just so he did'nt get it some how....

This is not intended to replace any information you may have
now. It is only intended to help you with your judgement in
keeping out the @#$#@.</b>

[alc1]

what one company bills m/hrs.for is irrelevant to another!your man hours should be what YOU can prosper from,factor in market conditions &voila,you have it!

[RYAN]

UPDATE

I got a call from the property manager last night. (Finally) Turns out I got the job. He says the decided not to mulch the beds this year since they were done last year. (Cheap ass) I am going to go there and get the contract signed this weekend. Looks like every thing turned out for the best this time.

Scoreboard

Good Guys-1 Lowballers-0

[thelawnguy]

Originally posted by RYAN
Looks like every thing turned out for the best this time.


Just be sure that, come July, you still arent waiting for the check from April's work.

[lakegastonla]

deleted

[Edited by lakegastonla on 04-03-2001 at 10:39 PM]

[lee b]

$18.00 an hour for manual labor would be about twice what skilled labor averages around here. I can hire day labor for $5.50 an hour easy, so yes I would've took it for that price and made good money. Yankees have either got it really good or really bad, I can't figure out which one.

[yardsmith]

Good for you, Ryan;
Chalk up another one for the good guys!

[LJ lawn]

why don't you try to sell that guy on dying the mulch? just spray it on.