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topsites
09-22-2005, 02:08 AM
I learned a valuable lesson from the low-balling over time and I will say MOST of the time when I low-ball it is NOT entirely intentional and I suspect MOST low-balling Lco's are in the same boat - It is NOT usually what we meant to do, thou yes SOMETIMES I low-ball intentionally. MOST of the time however, the reason I low-ball is because the customer is INFLUENCING the price while I'm trying to give my estimate, they are throwing hint after hint all of which translated mean 'I DONT WANT TO PAY MUCH' and it gets worse...
When someone is influencing, they are in effect selling a piece of their soul to satan and in so doing, they reveal pieces of themselves to ME! In this process I can almost always detect their 'price range' which has nothing to do with how much money they have or whatever but their 'price range' is how much they THINK it should COST and MOST of the time, said range is WELL below my MINIMUM! So here I am with someone who will NOT shut up long enough to let me clear my mind so I can give them a straight price and it messed me up a LOT in the past but I got a little something foder azz now.
At this point the ONLY solution is to quote them at LEAST your NORMAL price PLUS 20 or 40 percent so as to make SURE they did NOT mess you UP! And the more they influence, the higher you need to go to make SURE.
But if you're the ONLY one giving them an estimate, this is not much fun and I just as soon leave without ever giving them a price.

However, IF they say they have someone ELSE coming to give an estimate, this is where the true benefit comes in. I noticed as a rule, NOBODY ever mentions they already HAVE an estimate but they almost ALWAYS tell you when there's another one coming down the road.
So at this point I say something about I'm taking this home to itemize it properly and I'll have their estimate in 1-2 days. What this does:
- You are the LAST person to hand in the estimate so EVERYBODY else coming to give an estimate ALSO gets to hear the bs. This helps in that LIKELY someone ELSE might get messed up by all the influencing and unintentionally quotes them a low price right then and there (yeah, like my dumbazz used to do).
- YOU meanwhile need to make SURE you do NOT get skru'd and really, I prefer making the price about 20-40% higher than NORMAL for reasons:
1) If I'm the cheapest, I don't want this job.
2) I want to start a FIRE when they look at it, I WANT them to have a proverbial heart-attack so they tell EVERYBODY (wait) this way it helps prevent ME from getting nearly as much INCOMING (yes because once I got INTO the low-balling field it is really HARD to get out, EVERYBODY hounded me, ppls who want something for nothing are a dime a dozen).
3) It GUARANTEES the person who GAVE the lowest price WILL get the job! (you may think this is good, but I know from personal experience this is not the case when I am said person)
AND: WHEN that person who GAVE the lowest price GETS the job, it is quite likely they will HEAR how much *I* quoted them (as my price is a bit ridiculous).

Here is an example of how it works:
I had an estimate in spring it was a LOT of work and yes you guessed it I fell for it hook line and sinker and quoted a NICE price of 400 dollars which left me NO room to play, my hands were tied so tight if I made ONE mistake it was going to cost ME money... Oh but of course, it was STILL too much (sigh). So, I left since THEY had ANOTHER estimate coming...
A day or three later I get a call and got the job and sure enough the other guy quoted them a RIDICULOUS price of 1,600 dollars (see how that works).... I realized as I worked that although his price really WAS outrageous that *I* could've easily quoted 600 for the job and likely still got it but see it never works like that.
So now I got to BUST my AZZ (not only because it was SO much work but I was also bailing water out of my ship to keep from SINKING) and I barely squeaked out of there with a 30-dollar/hour rate, all the while thinking about it. I wasn't pizzed, this is the price I paid for education, but the NEXT time:

Months later I had the same problem... The price SHOULD've been around 600-750 for this other job but the constant influencing kept throwing me OFF and in this time I SAW the customer was THINKING it should cost 200-300, that was the 'price range.' I really hate it when I can see someone else thinking, don't people realize what they are doing????
Ahhhh but I had learned....
Yup, gotta run to the house add all this up, have your estimate in a few days (while you get your other estimates together) & tyvm. 2-3 days later, handed over the proposal in a SEALED envelope (so I could LEAVE before they looked at it) and tyvm again (the proposed price: $975, 450 upfront, balance upon completion - yup, no more Mr. nice 600-750 dollar guy).
Now:
Whoever quoted the LOWEST price BEFORE I gave mine is GUARANTEED the work (it's a LOT of work!). HOPEFULLY they quoted at LEAST 600 however when I was there the first time the influencing kept making me WANT to say 400 (which would've STILL been too high for customer), so I wish them ALL the best of luck.
Word of mouth spreads, and *I* will NOT be bothered for some time but IF I am, same game all over if it's going to be like this.
THEY who got the job will LIKELY hear MY outrageous quote straight from the horse's mouth. This will float around in their mind as they work and if they don't see it now, it is only a matter of time before they do and if they NEVER see it, then there goes another company out of business as Natural Selection takes over.

It truly is win-win all the way.
ps.: If I sound a bit nasty, sorry I didn't know how else to present this one...

Brianslawn
09-22-2005, 02:15 AM
can you just give me the cliff notes or a basic summary. reading your posts is like reading hyper text markup language. lol!

i'll try to make it through it, but might fall asleep. if i do go night night, then ill post my thoughts tomarrow.


how to get rich 2
how about a consolidated dumpster diving effort????
5 cents a can you know. lol!!! :p :laugh:

topsites
09-22-2005, 02:25 AM
i am so sorry it is so long but I really think it is a good read yet would like to hear the comments because I'm a bad judge of my own ...
thanks in advance for your patience, time, and tolerance

Brianslawn
09-22-2005, 03:28 AM
finally...lol.

yes, i catch that hinting. i ask them if they need to sit down before i give them the price.

my phone has been ringing off the hook lately. so many kids and scrubs went belly up with their low balling and high gas prices. stupid kids finally figured out gas cost them more than what they charged and hence no xbox 360 in their future. back to taco bell. 2 new yards a day not counting what we turn down. only mowing most yards every 2 weeks, but we are book solid. 2 we got today... builder that saw and commented on 2 walkers and stihl equip on truck and trailer wanted us to mow one yard waiting to be sold. $30 yard for most of you guys. after he said we dont have to catch the grass i told him $50. DEAL!

other down the street in pea ridge in one of the many new subdivisions of the area. couple weeks overgrown. thanks us for coming. other 5 people she called didnt even return her call. again $30 yard for most you guys. $60 first time, $50/week after. brand new 21" and lawn tractor in garage, too.

we're so dam busy and short on help i just shoot off high prices and often just over the phone if im familiar with their neighborhood. if they say theyre shopping for prices i dont even call them back. if they dont like it i just wave by-by. 95% of the time they shut-up and they agree to my price and thank me for coming to their rescue... as no one else does.

you said highballing rulez topsites... it sure as f*** does. if i can find 50 more guys i can add 2000 more yards by next year. that is how big my demand is!

as for you and your post topsites... at first (couple months ago) i didnt really like you that much. (but who gives a f***) as for now.... "no great genious is without an admixture of madness." -aristotle.

yes i got a lot of respect for you for speaking your mind reguardless.

as for me... "to be great, is to be misunderstood." -ralph waldo emerson.

Brianslawn
09-22-2005, 03:33 AM
oh yeah.... as for that consolidated dumpster dive. only need to find 20 million cans to split 1 million $$$.

maybe you should stick to consolidated lawn mowing. it worked for tgcl!!!!

mbricker
09-22-2005, 03:51 AM
Top, I think you are absolutely right.

One thing to point out. Bobby Gedd and many others on here will never have the problem you are having. In particular, they will never be getting vibes from some sweet little old lady that influences a lower price quote. But you Sir are obviously such a nice guy that maybe you are too nice for your own good.

And I think you are onto that, and the corrective action you have decided on makes a bunch of sense. Like you, I have had far too many Lincoln Towncar driving old ladies tell me in the sweetest voice,"OH, my last guy was charging $25. [for a lawn that is worth $40 if it's worth a penny] That's really all I have in my budget for the lawn. Couldn't you pleeeeeease do it for $25?" And sucker that I am, I agree.

And the referrals: when I started getting referrals from a job I had done for a stupid cheap price, bidding those jobs was nothing but a waste of time, because each of those people called me only because they thought they also would get a stupid cheap price.

Not no more!

Brianslawn
09-22-2005, 03:59 AM
go neighbor, go neighbor, go!!!

bg doesnt mow. hes a robot made up by LS to post humorous things on here. :p

Varsity L&G
09-22-2005, 05:07 AM
topsites,
You going to expo?

Great Post by the way.

Maitland Man
09-22-2005, 08:49 AM
Word of mouth spreads, and *I* will NOT be bothered for some time but IF I am, same game all over if it's going to be like this.
THEY who got the job will LIKELY hear MY outrageous quote straight from the horse's mouth. This will float around in their mind as they work and if they don't see it now, it is only a matter of time before they do and if they NEVER see it, then there goes another company out of business as Natural Selection takes over.

It truly is win-win all the way.
.


Yep!!

I bid em high........found out the hard way...if I don't I'm the busiest LCO out there...and not making a cent more then the fellow that cuts 3 days a week. :dizzy:

Dennis

topsites
09-22-2005, 10:07 AM
finally...lol.

yes, i catch that hinting. i ask them if they need to sit down before i give them the price.

you said highballing rulez topsites... it sure as f*** does. if i can find 50 more guys i can add 2000 more yards by next year. that is how big my demand is!

as for you and your post topsites... at first (couple months ago) i didnt really like you that much. (but who gives a f***) as for now.... "no great genious is without an admixture of madness." -aristotle.

yes i got a lot of respect for you for speaking your mind reguardless.

as for me... "to be great, is to be misunderstood." -ralph waldo emerson.

wow i am humbled heh...

I'd like to add I don't like it when they call this time of year for 'regular year-round grass-cutting' and I can see they have lawnmowers of their own... Reason being is it's a way to get 'on' the schedule while you get 1-2 more grass-cuts before LEAF season starts... The whole scharade is OK but then come LEAF season suddenly they want leaves done too (and for cheap, they had NO problem paying WHATEVER you quoted for the grass-cutting but once the leaf situation comes up, suddenly they reveal their true colors and THIS one is hard to resist as they will make you believe they WANT you to cut the grass ALL next YEAR but it is a SCAM they will NOT get you to cut grass NEXT spring almost guarantee all they want is LEAVES done CHEAP! Yes, we pay 100 / cut and they're all honky-dory but it is only 1 MAYBE 2 cuts and NOW it's the leaves and I wasn't born yesterday....
So when this happens, I get my 1-2 grass-cuts in and then I revert to the old rule: Leaves are done FIRST (and if I want ONLY) for year-round grass-customers who have been my grass customers *ALL* year, EVERYONE else WAITS until ALL this YEAR-long customers have been taken care of and if nothing else gets done after my year-long customers ARE taken care of, well you didn't think the little scheme still worked on me after 3 leaf seasons, did ya? :) That's right, late bloomers who join the ranks after July don't count come time for leaves.

LOL I like your saying about 'would you like to sit down first' ahahaha that's funny :)

JCee
09-22-2005, 10:39 AM
Those are some interesting posts. Again I am new to this and reading everyday. I just got a mower and put out about 500 flyer's so far. I've got three calls for estimates and got one job....Oh yeah definitely underbid it....now I am thinking of a way to get the price up.
The other job I put an estimate on is some shrub work, weeding a few beds, and filling holes that this guys dog dug. I estimate 5-6 hours for the shrub work, and probably 7-8 for the other stuff. (Including pick up of materials). I estimated $470.
At first I thought that was high but for my 2 man crew (me and another guy) but if it takes any longer like probably will it will be under 30/hr (gross).
Its tough starting coming from being the kid who did everyones dirty work growing up. I've done so many very crappy and hard work for dirt cheap 470 now sounds astronomical. I know that I do not want to be the lowest on the block though.
The other side is that I'm just starting though and Id like to get some jobs. So well see what happens....Do you think you should start low to get the clients and then go with higher prices as you get established? or just start with the higher estimates and wait longer for the work....

LASTEC
09-22-2005, 11:47 AM
Do you have the confidence that your service is the best around and worth more? is there something about your service that sets you apart? If so always hold your price.. at the end of the day it's about how much money did you put in your pocket.

OK- i would rather do 20 lawns and make a higher profit then low ball and do 40 lawns and make the very same money in my pocket at the end of the day.. i tell you that there are many many cutters out there doing just that.. selling themself short and leaving money on the table.

You guy's may not want to hear this, but some of you will catch on... you need a niche something that sets you apart, something that makes you better... kinda like us with the Articulator's it's not another me too mower it a mower that sets us apart, it will cut like no other mower... i could go on but i will not.

Bottom Line- Don't sell yourself short, create a niche that makes you better, learn why your better, understand your competitor. A lot of what i'm saying apply's to me in what i do, but also apply's to you guy's as contractors it did when i was one.

topsites
09-22-2005, 11:55 AM
No you're about on track, the other thing happens over time is you get better to where in time you can do TWICE the work in the same hour and really the price in the end is no different so to speak because what happens is you charge $60 for what USED to take you 2 hours now takes you 1 hour so that's one way your hourly rate goes up.
The other way it goes up, of course, you will raise your prices one day soon.

Here's the deal:
WHEN you underbid (don't feel bad), do it best you can and LEARN from your mistake because it WILL happen again! So the NEXT time it comes around, you will know how to price it. Like I said in my long post, education costs money and this is the price we pay when we underbid so it truly is important to not only realize that you underbid but ALSO while you WORK, think about it the ENTIRE time and what I mean is THINK how much it SHOULD'Ve cost and don't get mad, just think how much it SHOULD've cost so the NEXT time you will know this vital tidbit. I'm really not trying to be smart or sarcastic when I say that you will think about the skru'ing the ENTIRE time, what I'm aiming for is to help by telling you to think about how much it should've cost.
See the reason I KNEW it should've been at LEAST 600 is because I dun got skru'd on a job LIKE it before, and the reason I overbid quoted $975 (and on hindsight I shouldn't have but it's no big deal) is because I was still smarting a bit from the first skru'ing (all I could think of is I am NOT bailing water out my ship to keep from sinking again LOL).
So yes, overbidding or high-balling does RULE! You never know, you might actually GET the job (LOL) and it is hard when 470 sounds astronomical (because I have this problem too) but for 13 hours, try a thousand dollars and the way I do it so I can do it consistently is I think I am doing this mostly for my amusement :-) Now a thousand is tough (LOL it is SO hard to do it with a straight face) but maybe try 540 next time :)

topsites
09-22-2005, 12:08 PM
There is one other thing: When Highballing or over-bidding, DO be prepared NOT to get the job (well duh, lol). For this reason, I am MORE likely to do it when I don't really want to do the work OR for any other reason am just not that interested in doing it, I find the extra money is a GREAT motivator so if per chance they say YES then I will be more likely to show up and do it. Yeah I'm not stupid, I KNOW for a fact the reason some Lco's never showed up isn't because they're unreliable, it's because they underbid and NOW they lack the motivation (yet another problem, bid too low and I find myself not WANTING to go out there).

I even told a customer one time had a mega-pita project (I mean brush like a mofo and just briars and crap, then SEVERAL 6x12 TRAILER loads of junk to haul too, it was bad), that I did NOT even want to do it but I would be upfront as I felt the job probably SHOULD cost around 700 maybe 800 but the only way I could do it is if I had some extra INCENTIVE. I told her I highly recommend she call around and get some more prices because MY estimate is way high and it would really surprise me if she said Yes, that part of the price on my estimate was to make up for my own lack of motivation and that I hope she didn't take it as me being mad or angry at her (she really was a nice lady) but my price to ENSURE that I would show UP and do it was 1,400 dollars (and since she was so nice to me, I didn't think it was funny and I felt bad but you should've seen the LOT of work and you might understand).
It sounds mean, it sounds horrible, but once you do the dirty and you done been had a few times too many, it becomes easier and easier all the time.

topsites
09-22-2005, 12:16 PM
Do you have the confidence that your service is the best around and worth more? is there something about your service that sets you apart? If so always hold your price.. at the end of the day it's about how much money did you put in your pocket.

OK- i would rather do 20 lawns and make a higher profit then low ball and do 40 lawns and make the very same money in my pocket at the end of the day.. i tell you that there are many many cutters out there doing just that.. selling themself short and leaving money on the table.

You guy's may not want to hear this, but some of you will catch on... you need a niche something that sets you apart, something that makes you better... kinda like us with the Articulator's it's not another me too mower it a mower that sets us apart, it will cut like no other mower... i could go on but i will not.

Bottom Line- Don't sell yourself short, create a niche that makes you better, learn why your better, understand your competitor. A lot of what i'm saying apply's to me in what i do, but also apply's to you guy's as contractors it did when i was one.


You are right on track, not only is 20 yards LESS work for MORE money / yard but it's also HALF the wear and tear on your machines and this didn't dawn on me for some time but once I could SEE the wear and tear starting to show on my machine (it took a couple years and one concrete ditch I dropped it in), it became more and more obvious why I needed to get ENOUGH to cover all the cost as my '97 proline isn't going to make it much longer (the T-bar broke at the weld the other day, the deck has several longer cracks in it too - still, I drove that Wb for all she was worth many times and she's still got a few MORE good runs left in her, but comes a time and it's never cheap).

twindiddy
09-22-2005, 04:12 PM
This happened to me yesterday. Guy needs a lot cleared and he got our name from another client. The lot is right next to his daughter's house. I went out yesterday and looked at it. She comes out and starts talking to me. I can tell she's a talker so I ask her what kind of bids they have been getting. She said they have been absolutely ridiculous. She said he's been throwing numbers around like $2500 to $3500. Well, I'm thinking this job is at least $5500. Gonna cost us $1600 to do it. Mostly dump fees and equipment rental. I think she intentionaly said a low price. I think we can get it for $4k. We're not real busy right now, so do I want to pass on the job and make nothing, or bid lower and make a few grand. I would just as soon not know what the other bids were.

LASTEC
09-22-2005, 05:08 PM
This happened to me yesterday. Guy needs a lot cleared and he got our name from another client. The lot is right next to his daughter's house. I went out yesterday and looked at it. She comes out and starts talking to me. I can tell she's a talker so I ask her what kind of bids they have been getting. She said they have been absolutely ridiculous. She said he's been throwing numbers around like $2500 to $3500. Well, I'm thinking this job is at least $5500. Gonna cost us $1600 to do it. Mostly dump fees and equipment rental. I think she intentionaly said a low price. I think we can get it for $4k. We're not real busy right now, so do I want to pass on the job and make nothing, or bid lower and make a few grand. I would just as soon not know what the other bids were.


You know what you need to make... to me if your making a few grand that's not bad money and even better if your not busy.

N.H.BOY
09-22-2005, 08:03 PM
What type of lawn was for $400 worth of work? fert. ect.? Was that a week? I guess I'll read again!

topsites
09-22-2005, 08:21 PM
What type of lawn was for $400 worth of work? fert. ect.? Was that a week? I guess I'll read again!

Oh I never said, but here's the rundown on that one:
Size-wise, maybe 1/4 acre lot, normal cut + trim would've been $30 around here but:
Grass a foot tall and weeds all in the driveway and walkway (GALLONS of round up). Then, Core Aerate, Lime, Fert + Seed, plus hedge trim 4 front bushes.
Then 2 cu.yds of mulch to cover some small front beds where the bushes were.
2 MORE cu.yds. of screened Topsoil to fill several holes in the back yard.
AND 2 MORE cu.yds. of gravel for the driveway, all picked up, delivered + spread.

Cost of materials alone was right around 200 and it took an hour just to cut the effin' grass so it didn't have no clumps, another hour to aerate etc, then an hour each for topsoil, mulch... Well, it was an all-day thing, I combined some of the trips into one but still drove to-from a few times and when I say it was 7 hours labor, I mean I really spent MORE than 7 hours there.
So yes, 600 would've been MUCH better especially considering the OTHER estimate was 1,600 but I say it again: It NEVER works like that so I couldn't have quoted 600 while she was interfering with my MIND so I SHOULD've quoted like 1,200 myself (because I CAN'T quote 600 when they're influencing because the entire time this '400' keeps flashing through my mind no matter what you do, that's what happens with influencing).
But, live and learn.

topsites
09-22-2005, 08:37 PM
Here is another example... I had a guy today wanted an estimate on spreading 14 cubic yards of topsoil (28,000 pounds of dirt, OR 140 trips with the wheelbarrow loaded with 10-12 shovel loads = 4 cu.ft./load but nowadays I only use shovel + wheelbarrow for anything 4 cu.yards or under).
Well you can figure 2 yards/hour with the shovel = 7 hours HARD labor *OR* you can do it with a loader in 2-3 hours for about the same money :)
So I get there and I saw the pile but he was nice, he simply showed me where he wanted it all spread, I asked him how thick he said 2 inches, see that's how it's supposed to work. Never ONCE did he hint (or influence) so my mind stayed clear while I was thinking it out and I was able to come up with a reasonable rate of 400 dollars and that is what I quoted the man.
He asked how I came up with that, so I told him the rental of the loader was 200 dollars but I MIGHT be able to save 50 bucks if I can get the bigger loader because it's 50 dollars cheaper for the big one BUT the big one MIGHT be too heavy for my trailer), then I said 50 dollars for me to pick up + deliver the loader and 2 hours labor for spreading at 50 dollars/hour = 400.00
So he said well, shoot, he knows a loader he can rent for 300, how about I get the 50 bucks for delivering it and he does the work and I said NO, you rent the BIG loader for 150 at MY rental place and get THEM to deliver AND pick it up ALL for 250 instead and now we're on great terms even thou I never got the job but he was straight up with me and this may not make any sense but honest people are a TRUE pleasure to deal with and if you ONLY deal with honest people you will have a LOT less problems AND you can afford to appear to give it away because THEY appreciate it and it will come back on you.
But someone who influences my price, THAT is dishonest and you do them kind a favor and nothing good ever comes of it. One hates to be a judge but in some ways you almost have to, at least PRE-judge a little bit or you get skru'd. And when the pre-judging goes bad (or another way to say it is when the red flags start popping up) you got to either get the h3ll out of there OR quote a really high price, is all I'm saying.
I don't mess with my regulars or the good guys like that, but I swear good ppls are few and far in between.

topsites
09-22-2005, 08:54 PM
Come to think of it maybe I shouldn't get so mad about them influencing the price to go down considering I'm doing the exact opposite... ;)

I'll have to work on this now.

Brianslawn
09-22-2005, 10:22 PM
hey top... got another new one today at $40. had cheap guy doin it and he diappeared. imagine that. actually about leaves... only one of my new ones will have them. all the others are brand new construction. no trees taller than me in whole neighborhood. the one today told him catch grass was $50 or 40 to mulch it. 2k-3k yard in new neighborhood of 300k houses. he said he has lots of neighbors lookin for someone dependable reguardless of price.... after i told him what his price was.

oh top... keep up the good work & whens the book comin out???

lesco... i found my niche... theyre yellow!

dvmcmrhp52
09-22-2005, 10:37 PM
Come to think of it maybe I shouldn't get so mad about them influencing the price to go down considering I'm doing the exact opposite... ;)

I'll have to work on this now.


Got you to thinking, eh?

Simple procedure............know your costs,know what you want to make on the job, and quote it accordingly without listening to the nonsense.
The price is what it is, wether your bank account has 10 zeros or only 2.
The "average" account will always play the price game in the beginning, if you get beyond that it usually works out pretty well.

Envy Lawn Service
09-22-2005, 11:32 PM
You are right on track, not only is 20 yards LESS work for MORE money / yard but it's also HALF the wear and tear on your machines and this didn't dawn on me for some time but once I could SEE the wear and tear starting to show on my machine (it took a couple years and one concrete ditch I dropped it in), it became more and more obvious why I needed to get ENOUGH to cover all the cost as my '97 proline isn't going to make it much longer (the T-bar broke at the weld the other day, the deck has several longer cracks in it too - still, I drove that Wb for all she was worth many times and she's still got a few MORE good runs left in her, but comes a time and it's never cheap).

Holy cow man! Congrats.

Sometimes it takes a bolt of lightening to light up a lightbulb huh?

I've been over this whole lowballin thing with guys time after time after time.
I've spelled this all out for them down to the letter and they still don't have a clue.

Now, don't backslide on your new-found wisdom.
Keep asking for what YOU want/need without any influence.
And train yourself to walk when you don't get it.

JCee
09-22-2005, 11:36 PM
Thanks for the reply topsite....I got the job at 470 now im am thinking I should have went 540...hahaha greed settin in...Im gonna do the job on monday (weather permitting) and then I'll let you guy's know how I make out. No more lowballing for me. Also got two more calls for estimates today. Here we go!!!

PMLAWN
09-23-2005, 04:48 AM
Years back on this site someone's tag line was

I WOULD RATHER GO BROKE SITTING ON MY BUTT, THAN GO BROKE WORKING MY BUTT OFF.

I believe that sums it up well.
Did some restructuring myself this year and am going into fall a much happier person with more in the pocket at the end of the day and less stress.

JCee
09-28-2005, 02:09 AM
Yeah 470 somewhat low as it turned out, and the materials for my job were higher than I thought. I ended up making $23/hr. Shoulda bid about $650. Well live and learn. Trust me, I dont want to lowball...it was an accident

bobbygedd
09-28-2005, 08:02 AM
you cannot get rich in the lawn business. you can- make ok money, for awhile. you can- try to build big, and suffer from "burnout". you can- make somewhat of a good living, but then again, we all have our own ideas of what is a good living. you cannot-get rich. it wasn't the game that ruined it, it was the players. it was doomed from the start