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EliteImpressions
09-24-2005, 09:51 PM
I will be doing a large patio next year for my house. Total size will be about 40' long and 15' wide. I was just reading that you can mortar the pavers onto an existing concrete slab. The final cost would be about the same if I had someone come out and pour the concrete for me. I wouldnt have to excavate or worry about moving a few tons of base material either. Has anybody ever done this, and if so, will the quality be the same.

Thanks

mbella
09-24-2005, 10:56 PM
Elite, we have paved over concrete. The first thing I do is find out how long the existing concrete has been in place. The second thing I do is inspect the existing concrete. If it has been in place for a number of years and is in good shape (no cracks, settlement, proper drainage, etc.), I'd do it. I never offer a warranty on this application, but I do it.

If your existing slab has been installed for a number of years, is in good shape and drains properly, I don't see a problem.

Also, no need to mortar the pavers. Dry lay the field pavers and use paver adhesive to adhere the perimiter pavers to the concrete slab. Sweeping sand into the joints is enough to achieve interlock within the field of pavers.

Rex Mann
09-24-2005, 11:18 PM
We overlay about a 1000 square feet of concrete a week.
Mikes' recommendations on accessing the quality and integrity of
the concrete is very sound advice, especially if you are located in
a freeze-thaw environment.

We like to screed out a 1/2-inch of concrete sand, if we have enough room.
This way we eliminate the chance of the pavers rocking. They seem to have a tendency to do this on control joints. Then we use mortar to affix the perimeter pavers.

If we can not use sand, they are installed as Mike described. We then use dried bagged sand, which is finer and makes it easier to fill the entire depth of the joint.

Peace,

Rex

PaversInstalled.Com (http://paversinstalled.com)

EliteImpressions
09-25-2005, 02:39 AM
If I was to use the concrete slab, I would be having that put down a few months before I install the pavers. Is this a good idea, or should I just go the normal route and excavate, lay material, base, etc? I just figured having someone lay the concrete would be easier than me having to excavate and put down a base.

Dreams To Designs
09-25-2005, 08:41 AM
There is mo need or reason to pour concrete to lay pavers, unless you have a serious soil or settling issue. The tried and true method of removing the soil, geo fabric, base material and lots of compaction will suit you fine. As Mike said, he will not offer a warranty on laying pavers over concrete because you do not have control of what the concrete will do. It can heave and will crack, possibly affecting your pavers. Easier is not always better.

Kirk

mbella
09-25-2005, 08:58 AM
Elite, I thought the pad was in place. No way would I plan to pour the pad and overlay it with pavers.

EliteImpressions
09-25-2005, 10:15 AM
Thanks for the reponses. I kind of figured that but I wanted to double check since it would save me a lot of time by using the concrete.

DVS Hardscaper
09-25-2005, 05:12 PM
Right.

No existing concrete - do not pour concrete :)

Existing concrete, and all is well, and it's at the correct grade (so pavers are not higher than the threshold into the dwelling), then go over it if you so desire.

And to go one step further, while on the subject - just drill holes and anchor your restraint in the concrete. No mortar needed!

NNJLandman
09-25-2005, 05:15 PM
I would never put pavers over top of concrete. To many things could go wrong. Just seems like a pad idea. We always rip up the concrete and put down the pavers.

Jeff

mbella
09-25-2005, 06:56 PM
I would never put pavers over top of concrete. To many things could go wrong. Just seems like a pad idea. We always rip up the concrete and put down the pavers.

Jeff

Jeff, we do it on stoops all the time. If the concrete is in good shape, has been in place for a number of years and you have the clearance like DVS said, there's nothing wrong with it.

DVS Hardscaper
09-25-2005, 11:04 PM
We do it with pool decks all the time.

Now, if a client has a 400 sf concrete patio and they want a new patio, then more than likely we'll remove the concrete.

I think ICPI has written some new specs for concrete overlays?

neversatisfiedj
10-12-2005, 08:22 AM
I am looking at a job where the client is selling the house. He just wants me to go over the concrete. I will offer no warranty but will do it. Are you guys saying do not lay a sand bed , and just glue pavers on the edge for restraint ?

bigviclbi
10-12-2005, 01:36 PM
If you were to overlay on a slab around a pool, what would you do about the edge? A) it would be high and B) the edge of pavers aren't really made to show. Had a customer ask about it, said I have never done it but they said you can according to EP Henry. Said I would look into it. By the way, it is freakin miserable here.

neversatisfiedj
10-12-2005, 04:11 PM
Yeah it fells like Washington State

TLS
10-12-2005, 04:43 PM
What about drainage? If your mortar the perimeter, and sand base the inside, won't it fill up like a 3" deep pool on a rainy day?

Just curious, as a neighbor (mowing customer) has a patio that would be ideal for an overlay. Steps, and stoups leading into back of house are all flat and ready for construction adhesive and bullnose. On steps....was thinking of suggesting that he just paint the risers with a good porch and floor paint to match the brick. The treads would just be glued bullnose.

Patio is in OK shape. One small crack, probably 8"+ thick (previous homeowner went overkill on EVERYTHING) but the entire patio is scaled from winter rocksalt.

He's looking for ideas.

DVS Hardscaper
10-12-2005, 05:00 PM
If you were to overlay on a slab around a pool, what would you do about the edge? A) it would be high and B) the edge of pavers aren't really made to show. Had a customer ask about it, said I have never done it but they said you can according to EP Henry. Said I would look into it. By the way, it is freakin miserable here.


There will be two outer perimeters. the 1st is the perimeter around the pool itself. You will have to make a coping. That can be done by mortaring flagstone around the perimeter of the pool, or by mortaring / gluing retaining wall caps. We have done both.

Then you have the perimeter where a lawn or beds may be. Use your typical paver restraint, and backfill with soil like you would for any other application.

The following pic is not a close up, but you can see the outer perimeter is restrained with typical paver restraint. the perimeter around the pool is restrained with NICE, natural stone (flagstone), which is mortared on place.



http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y212/ScapeItWS6360CJ7/Gro2.jpg

DVS Hardscaper
10-12-2005, 05:27 PM
Here is another pic showing wall caps for the coping and showing the outer perimeter.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y212/ScapeItWS6360CJ7/Reu02.jpg

mbella
10-12-2005, 06:08 PM
What about drainage? If your mortar the perimeter, and sand base the inside, won't it fill up like a 3" deep pool on a rainy day?

Just curious, as a neighbor (mowing customer) has a patio that would be ideal for an overlay. Steps, and stoups leading into back of house are all flat and ready for construction adhesive and bullnose. On steps....was thinking of suggesting that he just paint the risers with a good porch and floor paint to match the brick. The treads would just be glued bullnose.

Patio is in OK shape. One small crack, probably 8"+ thick (previous homeowner went overkill on EVERYTHING) but the entire patio is scaled from winter rocksalt.

He's looking for ideas.

When you adhere the perimiter pavers (bullnose), run a bead down the center of each paver. Run the bead perpendicular to the face of the surface you are capping. This will allow the water to weep. If you run a continuous bead of adhesive paralell to the face of the surface, you will trap water.

TLS
10-12-2005, 06:31 PM
On a bullnose glue job...yes, I see your point.

However, I was referring to a mortared perimeter (wet set on 1/2" bed of mortar), and then the inside on 1/2" bed of sand.

mbella
10-12-2005, 11:28 PM
On a bullnose glue job...yes, I see your point.

However, I was referring to a mortared perimeter (wet set on 1/2" bed of mortar), and then the inside on 1/2" bed of sand.

On what kind of application? pool, stoop, patio?

TLS
10-12-2005, 11:30 PM
Patio....say 14x20

mbella
10-12-2005, 11:32 PM
Patio....say 14x20

Damn dude, are you waiting in breathless anticipation for each reply? Just kidding.

Why would you need to mortar the perimiter of a patio?

TLS
10-12-2005, 11:35 PM
Because someone up above said they've done it this way.

I get email reply, I reply.

mbella
10-12-2005, 11:42 PM
TLS, if there isn't a reason to do it that way, other than somebody else did it that way, I wouldn't do it that way.

DVS Hardscaper
10-13-2005, 09:44 AM
Not to sound arrogant, but this is a problem I have with the hardscape industry.

"well someone else did this"

or

"someone told me that"

TLS
10-13-2005, 09:52 AM
We overlay about a 1000 square feet of concrete a week.

We like to screed out a 1/2-inch of concrete sand, if we have enough room.
This way we eliminate the chance of the pavers rocking. They seem to have a tendency to do this on control joints. Then we use mortar to affix the perimeter pavers.


Peace,

Rex

PaversInstalled.Com (http://paversinstalled.com)

This is the method that I was referring to guys.

Rex, how do you deal with water drainage if your perimeter is mortared on a 1/2" thick wetbed?


As for paver rocking.....could you use a thin foam similar to what you use under Pergo floors to lay under the pavers?

bigviclbi
10-13-2005, 01:11 PM
Dvs, those pics were installed over concrete? So if you use caps as coping there would just be an extra 3" of height near the pool? On the outside that would be fine unless the old concrete meets up with a path or something i guess. Thanks. I am doing two pool jobs (new not on concrete) and i have never done coping before, I am planning on using adhesive to hold down whatever type of coping the customer asks for ie. bullnose pavers or caps. Does the adhesive just get glued to the edge of the pool(both will be fiberglass)?

Rex Mann
10-14-2005, 12:05 AM
First, all the patios we overlay are covered.
Second, we live in the desert. 3-inches of
rain per year.

And, most of the time we continue past the concrete with the pavers. This
allows the water to drain. Also, when we do a 100% overlay, then we do not
use a continuous wet-set. We leave weep holes.

Peace,

Rex

http://rmstonescaping,com

TLS
10-14-2005, 12:07 AM
Thanks for the clarification Rex.

Lisk
10-21-2005, 01:32 PM
It can be done but just a bit risky.....


http://www.pennygreen.com/projects/poolsidepavers/images/poolsidepaver%20(7)_JPG.jpg


http://www.pennygreen.com/projects/poolsidepavers/images/poolsidepaver%20(8)_JPG.jpg


http://www.pennygreen.com/projects/poolsidepavers/images/poolsidepaver%20(9)_JPG.jpg

TLS
10-21-2005, 01:38 PM
What will you use on the pool edge? Are you just going flush with pavers? What will keep them there?

neversatisfiedj
10-21-2005, 01:41 PM
Show us some finished pics please.

Lisk
10-21-2005, 08:07 PM
http://www.pennygreen.com/projects/poolsidepavers/images/poolsidepaver%20(40)_JPG.jpg


http://www.pennygreen.com/projects/poolsidepavers/images/poolsidepaver%20(46)_JPG.jpg