MY MARKET IS RUINED... I QUIT!

[osc]

I have been in lawn and landscape for 6 years and I'm toast. New members may be good for Lawnsite but it is not really that good for those of us already in business. Everyone and his brother is starting a lawn biz and while expenses are going up, people are bidding jobs to work for absolute nothing. There are too many people doing this as a sideline and 2 or 300 bucks a week looks real good to them.

Last week I lost a 40K per year account to a lower priced outfit that has NEVER CUT A BLADE OF GRASS BEFORE.

If that wasn't enough, most of my other accounts have informed me that there are more bids coming in than ever before and that my price is now very high. They say these companies all have documentation and references.

I lost another account to a lower price that is $100 cheaper than what they were paying 6 years ago. It went from $345 to $245 per cut. Gasoline was over 2 bucks last summer, can anyone add?

Too many people have seen me run up and down the road with a trailor and mowers and they think I'm rich. Sharing info is great but there are now way too many people getting into the biz and it is being ruined. These guys don't even want to pay for their equipment. The recession is going to make things worse as more people look for extra income.

I'm not trying to discourage any of you in this business but I think that information is way too free to people starting out. Info that many of us worked hard for and paid good money for. I feel that I now have competitors from this site and the info that has flowed freely here has helped to ruin the market in my area. As of right now you can no longer make a decent profit in my area.

I hope you all have better luck than we are.

OSC

[awm]

Sorry to see it turning bad for you.You got the trucks and a lot of equip. Mabe you could deversify a bit.
Good luck

[bobbygedd]

i have been coming to this site for a few months now, and i myself have wondered why on earth people who complain so much about competition would happily give away thier knowledge that came from years of ass busting experience. the fact is it does not take a whole lot of money, or a brain to start a lawn biz, to be succesful at it you u must be durable and able to roll with the punches, most guys , after losing money due to mistakes caused by not knowing what they are doing, combined with the physical stress the job causes, and a need to be able to pay their bills, but cant cus month after month they lose money, are forced out of the business. the people on this site are very knowledgable, respectful, decent people, BUT, they are also creating their own competition by giving out information. kind of like giving away the combination to a lock, then bitching when some one steals yur stuff. sorry to hear the bad news. BOB

[lawrence stone]

Man you are FOS.

There are 58 hits on this board right now.

Exactly how many of these 58 are from your little berg in
Southern Ohio?

Pull yourself up by your own boot straps and forget about those start up losers and the junk accounts you lost.

Learn how to market your services to the high end of the
market in the future so you won't be in this situation year after year.

I lost a $20k sports field contract from last season do to
nepotism. I have already made up $10k in new work w/o speinding a dime on advertising.

In April I will do over $10k just in one shot aerations,
dethatchings, and renovations (snow mold you know).

Do to the way my seasonal contracts are structured when it
gets hot and dry this summer I will still have cash flow
while spending lots of time at the NJ shore relaxing at
the beach.

[turfquip]

I believe the situation OSC has described is very real.

This is perhaps the best argument for LS to become a fee based site. A place where professionals who are advanced and have established businesses can exchange information.

If not advanced and established, then willing to pay to access the fountain of knowledge that exists here.

This is a very hard realization we need to face. Every day, hundreds of lurkers checking in, learning our business. Learning our secrets. Muscling their way into virtually every market in this country. Now the question is what are we going to do about it?

It hurts. It really does. We have to somehow protect our interests while balancing the needs of Chuck and his site.

[joshua]

we all need to pull together, everyday more new compaines pop up and lowball the he11 out of all of us. i wish you guys lucj that are getting hit hard right now.

[John DiMartino]

I admit,lately Ive been tight lipped when asked about how I get my lawns to look so good,and how to stripe it so good.Most who ask are new guys,the same ones who would cut my price by 10 bucks,to get my accounts.Maybe Im mean,but no told me 11 yrs go,I learned on my own,now its there turn.The economy is bringing guys out of the woodworks.

[Island Lawn]

Fee based!
YES!
It would dramatically increase the level of professionalism of the members and the forum!

Why not?
It would "change" LS!

Why not an online professional organization?
Schedule in guest posters with special info to share?
Occasional get togethers?
Ect?

just my 2


We will hit 3000 members soon!

[shonts excavation]

HI I AM NEW HERE
In my years in buisness i learned that new comers are good
where i am from i see them come and go every day. I see alot where i am it is what erer i do everyone else does
I bought a trencher i made good money in 6 mounths i seen trenchers all over they were cutting me by 80% so in 1997 i bought a bobcat charged 50.00 per hour + 25.00 per hour for attachments and in a couple of months everyone had one they were running theres for 15.00 - 25.00 per hour . I thought it would hurt me but it didn't it gave me more work. They might have equiptment but do they know how to use it ???
THERE MISTAKES MAKE YOU MORE MONEY!!!

[Eric ELM]

I have to go along with Mr. Stone on this one. There isn't that many members in your area on Lawnsite. I have brought 2 in this area to Lawnsite and I have helped them in growing their business. They are not regulars here, that is for sure, but they do check it out.

We have gotten off the point that if we educate all the lawn companies in the USA and abroad, we can get the pricing up where it should. There will always be new guys starting out that do not price a job right. When all they have is a 21" Murray, they don't feel they need to charge as much. We have all our last year customers back again this season and we have 4 more that want us to do theirs. I'm not against a pay forum, but I don't think educating new members is going hurt us more than help us.

There are many thousands of lawn companies in the Chicago area, but we have maybe 5 of them on Lawnsite. I think some of you have to rethink about Lawnsite doing anything but good, but this is just my opinion. ;)

[Double D]

I can not believe what I am reading. If you do not want to be a part of the discussions on this site then don't. This is an exchange of ideas and different ways of getting the same job done. Do any of you (that are giving away your best trade secrets) think your plight would be different if this site did not exist. I don't think so. We happen to be in a business that a 12 year old with a lawn mower and a trimmer can drum up business. The people that are undercutting your bids do not surf on this site. I have learned much from the discussions here, and I bet you have picked up a thing or two also. Face it, cutting grass is not rocket science. Granted, experience and knowledge will go a long way, but you will always have competion from "low ballers". Maybe all of you guys that are so pissed off right now should e-mail ideas among yourselfs, then I bet your business will skyrocket- give me a break.

[MJ]

Not to antanize anyone, but I'd like to show another side. I thought last Fall that I'd get into the Lawn and Landscape business - part time. I have a full time job. My first post - I asked about starting a new lawn. Then I began to think I'd start a business. After spending a few months on here, I've decided that the investment in money and time for a good landscaping business is more than I'm willing to commit - especially the physical and time part. Even "just" lawncare would be a substantial commitment. Decided that for sure just today. I'm still interested in lawn work (my own) and I'll be using the vast amount of knowledge gained here for my own benefit. For that, I thank you all and I'll buy you lunch when I see you. So, at least in one case, access to this site prevented competition. I'm going to stick with snow removal, and even there I've adjusted my stategy in large part from information I've gained from this and SIMA sites. Actually, I'm learning how to not directly compete with established service providers and create my own niche. Maybe instead of training your competition, you could help them complement your business? Like I said, I'm not trying to antaganize anyone, just thinking "differently".

[thelawnguy]

If you are being priced out of business you have no one to blame but yourself. At least you will have a shiny new 40k truck to ride around in.

Better yet figure how to trim your overhead and start pricing those jobs back to earthly amounts so you wont have to worry about losing accounts.

There are no real secrets here just shared knowledge. Knowledge is power. Let it build you not destroy you.

[Bassman]

This must be the night. I swear I don't intend to ruffle any feathers, but... Short and sweet... wherever I, (we), are in life materially is attributed to the decisions that we have made every single day of our lives. Not because of him, her, that other person or biz.
I've tried to teach this to my children. Human nature dictates that if you don't succeed, blame it on something, ANYTHING, besides yourself. I've been at the top and so far down I had to reach up to hit bottom. Roller coaster ride. I've tried the blame game but looking back, probably deserved whatever came my way based on decisions I made.
If you are fortunate enough to figure this out early in life rather than later, you will be successful at whatever. If not, you will be looking in a mirror when you are 80 yrs. old one morning and the light bulb will go on as you say, "Huh, what happened with my life?"
P.S. The truly best things in life, (and beyond), don't cost a nickel.

[Edited by Bassman on 03-17-2001 at 09:58 PM]

[lakegastonla]

To the guys saying that few people in each area are members of this site:


Probably 10 times as many people LURK, than those that are registered members. Why, you ask? I would say because they don't want to give away damaging information, and they want to learn as much as possible from AND about their competition while remaining in the shadows.

I found this site long ago through an internet search, if that tells you anything!

Just a thought, but how about a membership fee from 1 to 10 dollars with EVERYONE who gets in having to be a registered member? Would cut down on a lot of BS.

[turfquip]

More thoughts from Ed:

I am in support of a fee based forum if it would provide adequate funding for the forum's ownership. The revenue stream would shift away from banner advertisers as primary source - to membership fees as primary.

Seems like the ones that oppose it the loudest are the ones that simply aren't willing to pay for anything - even if it would mean a huge difference in their bottom line. As this thread progresses, watch and see who squeals the loudest and ask youself why.

There is an underlying attitude that somehow we as computer owners are a "family" and that it is in our interest to share, spill our guts for the good of all. This thinking parallels other new age mindsets like <u>inclusiveness</u> and <u>cultural diversity</u>.

I'm more concerned about non-members being market busters. As far as I know, and correct me if I'm wrong Eric but nonmembers have access to search features? Also, no stats are available on lurkers...which markets they are from, etc.?

I'm not trying to start trouble here. I love this place. Seems like the dealers and manufactures are the big winners though since every newbie who asks which mower is best is directed to Exmark, Walker, etc.

We are putting more efficient, better equipped hacks into the market who don't experience the learning curve we all did. Often these guys don't have the business acumen to understand their costs. Net result is a lowballing hack with the best equipment in the business.

Does this make sense to anybody but me or should I shut my yap and go on?

[osc]

I guess I need to add that I am not really picking on Lawnsite here. It just seems that our industry has no protection of any kind and information is flowing everywhere. The lawn industry as a whole is hot with new start ups and that would be ok but what if every new company decided to be a nonprofit biz and they low balled the heck out of the industry. You can't tell the difference where I am.

I find that my customers smile and carry on great conversation but really have no loyalty at all. Why should they?

So the question is "what am I going to do about it?". Well as the grace of God would have it I bought a golf course, I realize I already posted that info a week or so ago. At this point I am willing to let the lawn business slide untill better days.

I guess Mr. Stone, I have already pulled myself up by my bootstraps and not pursuing lawn accounts right now is a choice. I have a few accounts that are still under contract. Yippee!

Actually, things are probably falling right into place. I must say that maintaining a bent grass golf course is that pinnacle of green industry. I have many new toys to play with, beautiful clubhouse and maintenance buildings.

I wish you guys could see the equipment I have to play with. Well heck, check out this list:
2 Toro 5100 D fairway mowers
2 Toro 3100 greensmasters
1 Toro 350 gallon sprayer with on board computer
1 Exmark LazerZ 72" deck
1 kubota 72' outfront 4 wheel drive
1 72" National
1 Toro walk behind aerator- the good kind
1 Kubota L4200 4 wheel drive tractor
1 10.5' cyclone flex finish mower
1 5' bush hog
1 5' finish mower
1 fairway roller
1 greens roller
1 top dresser
1 fert spreader for kubota
60 golf carts
ETC.

I think this is the right time for a career change.

[lawrence stone]

OSC if you could not make it in a easy low overhead business
how do you expect to make it in the golf course biz?

Do you know how to manage bent grass? What about all those
cheap golfers who will be going to the course across town for the greens fee is $2 cheaper?

I think it is time for the Grassmaster to give his opinion
about RETAIL operations.

[osc]

I guarantee you I was "earthly" priced already. The prices I am talking about are scary and on a commercial level.

[osc]

You are right I could fail. But there are only so many courses in the area and they are all packed.

I am not saying the industry is going to pot for everyone but I feel the push and afterall this is a dream of mine so what else can I do.

Yep, I know Bent.

By the way, my lawn business did not fail, I am making a decision. I have fed my family for 6 years and we have no debt what-so-ever. My wife is home with our children etc.

I have a thresh-hold or minimum dollar figure that I will be in business for and I choose not to get into a pissing contest with all the newbies.

[Edited by osc on 03-17-2001 at 10:27 PM]

[Bassman]

osc...
You are obviously stressed, (and rightfully so).
Keep your bearings and priorities straight. I guarantee you that one year from now you will be in better shape than you are now. You have been doing something very right to have made a living for 6 years in this biz.
Take a break, put together a plan for increased biz and don't look back.
Best of luck to you. Tomorrow is another day.

[osc]

I mean... when you lose 40k per year accounts to guys that don't even own any mowers yet... never have owned mowers, it can get stressful.

[Ground Pounder]

I have a couple of points.

1) If LS was a pay site, who would get the money and how would that help the industry? People would just look elsewhere.

2) I am new but the information that has been shared by experienced LCOs has taught me where pricing should begin. The last thing I want is to be known as a lowballer. I financed $11,000 worth of new equipment, had professional flyers printed up, and was lowballed myself by a guy charging $23 to cut 22,000 sq ft. I present myself professionally with new equipment, professional marketing, enhancing my turfgrass science education, and by being customer service oriented.

I target high-end areas. If you want to target these people you must remember that they are well educated people. If you present yourself as someone who can't spell or even use simple grammar, I doubt they will do business with you.

[osc]

In 2000, we had months that grossed over 30K. It ain't like I had a 500 dollar a week business here.

GroundPounder: you don't have a clue.

[thelawnguy]

Originally posted by osc
I guarantee you I was "earthly" priced already. The prices I am talking about are scary and on a commercial level.

Apparently not "earthly" enough.

Commercial bids are by nature the most competitive. Most of the guys awarding bids dont care what the grass looks like as long as its cut low enough to see out the windows. The padding added to residentials will not fly when presented to a beancounter negotiating with 3 other LCOs. All the more reason to be sure expenses are in check.

turfquip I think youve been sharing too many bass ales with nelson. Your brilliant ideas have first brought us all together with the roundtable, now they have sent the used equipment forum through the stratosphere with hits and cash influx (j/k) boy o boy I cant wait to see what the next scheme up your sleeve will do for Lawnsite.

[Double D]

To Ed:
You must be registed to use the search feature. Also, please define a 'hack' for me. If someone is buying the type of equipment we discuss on this site, IMHO they are not a 'hack'. I am in my second year, have almost 8K worth of equipment, and do this part-time. Am I a 'hack'? I can tell you that last year (my first in the business) I knew nothing about Lawnsite. You know what, the grass got cut, the blades got balanced and sharpened, the flyers got distributed. I am very grateful for this site, and will be the first in line to sign up if the site becomes a pay site, but there seems to be an awful lot of discontent toward part-timers. BTW, in my area there is an unlimited supply of hard working, CHEAP labor that originates from the south of the border. I find that the full time, know it all Lawn care companys, that use this labor, are much cheaper than me. I feel like these guys that drop a couple of these workers off with a beat up 48" walkbehind, and a couple of trimmers and a blower are the 'hacks'.

[osc]

I guess the title of my thread was a bit dramatic.

[Ground Pounder]

Grossing 30K in some months????????????

Must be nice! I sure wouldn't be bitching, maybe adjusting my lifestyle. That is good jack, especially down in them thar hills, coo, coo, coo.

[turfquip]

Ohhhh the bitterness...Bill am I to assume that you would not pay to be a member? I am still waiting for you to initiate the fund raising plan for LawnSite you squawked about last time the topic came up. Idea still in development huh? At least your wise cracker is still working. Thank you for your contribution.

Also, I haven't named anybody as being a hack. I'm speaking in general terms. I'm not attacking anyone. I have nothing against part timers. I am totally neutral with nothing to gain or lose no matter what happens.

This thread like every other will fade soon into oblivion. Lets be adults here.

[Edited by turfquip on 03-17-2001 at 11:02 PM]

[Eric ELM]

I think you put that picture in Turf labeled "Tough Competition", in a month to early. Here is the thread to go along with it.

[Twotoros]

I would pay to be a member.This all sounds familiar to me& I have no answer. The south of the border talent here is high priced and they use cheap labor. It is the white trashy type that are the lowballers. I am on the hunt to check business licenses on the state website this season. When I get a chance to talk to some of the dumbies that have been around awhile I tell them they are only hurting themselves.( I pretend they don't hurt me but they do.)They hurt me as I only get maybe one in ten bids. I know how osc feels because this may be my last year here.

[JLC]

Don't know exactly what the answer would be to this problem. Seems though that every year there is more operators in this business. As far as lawn site goes, make it pay, I don't care. The way I see it though is that if a person doesn't want to say anything they don't have to. To bad people don't have more red tape to go through to be able to enter the business. I guess though that would have sucked for myself trying to start in the business. Oh well, what do I know, I only have a couple dozen posts, my experience doesn't count for anything because I am new to Lawnsite.

[thelawnguy]

Originally posted by turfquip
Ohhhh the bitterness...Bill am I to assume that you would not pay to be a member? I am still waiting for you to initiate the fund raising plan for LawnSite you squawked about last time the topic came up. Idea still in development huh? At least your wise cracker is still working. Thank you for your contribution.

I sent my check...I assume you did too. BTW I already did my share of drum beating-read for yourself http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?threadid=339

Would I pay a subscription to stay here? No. Why? Because I consider myself to be a net contributor, and why should I pay to contribute?

If there is any bitterness...no its not bitterness just disgust, since all you seem to do is pass the hat and start off-topic discussions to stir the pot. Please point us to the last post you made actually giving someone advice. As a so-called moderator you should be doing your best to not contribute to off-topic postings and their accompanying use of costly bandwidth. Oops thats right theres nothing to moderate at the forum youre in charge of LOL.

Theres a thought, rather than charge admission, cut wasted bandwidth by not turning a scrub discussion into a PBS fundraising drive.

[turfquip]

Originally posted by thelawnguy

Would I pay a subscription to stay here? No. Why? Because I consider myself to be a net contributor, and why should I pay to contribute?


Net contributor? or pompous ass...

[lawrence stone]

Originally posted by turfquip
Originally posted by thelawnguy

Would I pay a subscription to stay here? No. Why? Because I consider myself to be a net contributor, and why should I pay to contribute?


Net contributor? or pompous ass...



He left lawnsite many months ago. He is over at the L&L
board if anyone is interested.

[Sammy]

LOL @ Stone ! Yup, he sure is.....

[Vibe Ray]

Such is the way of life, guys!

LOL, you guy are funny!

Anyway, maybe you are creating competition, but you are also helping the industry. Life is a giant balancing act. I could go on and on about this, but I won't.....

[Edited by Vibe Ray on 03-18-2001 at 12:55 AM]

[eslawns]

I don't understand why someone would quit the biz because of losing a few bids. Tighten up! Every biz has waste to reduce or some way of becoming more efficient. And every industry has up and down cycles. We're in a down cycle. It's been going that way for over a year, and it started with fuel prices. It was predictable and you should have prepared for it.

Most of the people here have been jumping up and down about how the booming economy has made so much money. What did you guys do with all the profits you don't want to give up? I don't know about everybody else, but I'll ride out the storm. Most of the lowballers come and go. Who cares? Give them enough rope and it ends up around their neck. The rest work their butts off for nothing.

I wonder if the guy who bought the golf course has thought about how the stock market will affect people's golf money. There's just one business that really never feels a pinch: Groceries, we all need to eat.

If you want a guarantee buy a toaster.

[Vibe Ray]

I would really advise against making Lawnsite a pay site. It really seems to me a BAD decision to make. One reason is that some people may see this site and not join because that they haven't experienced Lawnsite yet and don't know that it is worth its weight in gold. Let's suppose someone like Eric or KutnKru wouldn't have joined when they did if it cost money! We would really lose out on that deal!!!

The PEOPLE are what MAKE Lawnsite, so why would you want to stop the people from coming?! There are many other reasons, but I'm sure you guys know most of them. I would definitely pay to have Lawnsite, but I think it would be a LOT better off not being so. My 69 cents!

Not to mention, Chuck doesn't need money! He has already mentioned this! All I have to say is NO NO NO NO!!!! Also the atmosphre here at Lawnsite is partly because of the fact that it is free!

If it ain't broke, DON"T fix it!!!! Lawnsite is doing GREAT!!!! This has the potential to really change Lawnsite for the worse or maybe even the better, but it seems like a big risk! Don't make it a pay site just because a few members are complaining, LOL!!! That's not fair to everyone.


[Edited by Vibe Ray on 03-18-2001 at 01:46 AM]

[mowingmachine]

If a lowballer is trully a lowballer they won't last. If the profits arn't there it is not possible to stay in buisness. Have any of you ever thought that these lowballers may not have as much overhead therefore they don't have to charge as much. I have seen alot of lawn care guys who are entirely to inefficent and have way too much overhead. Concentrate on the overall profit not how many yards you can do or how many employees you have or how fast you can get a job done. None of that stuff matters. If you can profit the same amount of money or more by just yourself why hire or even expand. Optimize your profits. This is where the true buisness comes in and it weeds out the guys that shouldn't be in a position to own a buisness. Every other industry is faced with this same thing everyday. Just makes you become more innovative. Look for new ways to cut grass with less people or those jobs that are more profitable. What do you think all the Wal-Marts have done to everybody across the country. You think the lawn care buisness is bad. It's probably only going to get worse in this line of work and the true lawn care "buisnessmen" will always be the one on top. Just a thought

Mowingmachine

[jmartmel]

I would not mind having a fee based site but only if there was a chance to see the site first, like say one week free to get a look at the site before joining. I believe there are ways to block access after a week of looking by refusing entry to IP numbers or something like that? Maybe set it up so first week has full access but archived searches are only for members. I know when i first came I never would have signed up without getting a look at the site. Then again you wouldnt want to stop the site from growing, maybe the week free wouldnt slow it down because I can see this site growing to the point where members will maybe get discounts from insurance companies , manufacturers, ect, just for being lawnsite members. Maybe $10 a month or something like that would be fine. I'm sure most of us would have signed up to a fee based site after getting a look at it for a week, I know i would have. I think the info here is worth it. Just dont want to stop the growth, it's a tough call.

[JVS]

How about in order to provide lawn service et.al you need to be a licenced contractor for instance like an attorney or plumber or doctor. These professions cannot operate without a practicing licence.




Joe
http://www.jvslandscape.com

[tpirobert]

To quote Pooh "sharing is caring". I have a 2 year old.

When doors close in business, new ones open if you pay attention. My business is DOWN 40% from high gross of couple years ago. Lost to lower bids, management changes, etc.. I will EXCEED the net $ this year of couple years ago. New business comes along and not all jobs produce profit. I have been looking closer at my business and this forum has helped. I would rather the "competition" paticipate here than not.

I would share here at LS pay or not. Knowledge is power and power is knowledge ( to quote Mr. Stone:0 ). Knowledge/education improves the playing field for everyone.

Yes, I have had my moments when I wanted to drive truck and trailer into lake.

[Charles]

This is a good discussion and very timely with the season upon us. I don't give out my business secrets on this forum and am supprised when I see others do so. I will discuss pricing and generalities.
But people do not have to come to this website to get the idea about going into the lawn care biz. They see all these fancy rigs riding around town and think to themselve"man those lawnguys are making the dough! I can do that. Then they hitch up a trailor to their stationwagon and start charging 10 year old prices. The their sears craptsman wears out and they go buy commercial grade equipment or get out all together.
BUt year after year the volume of people quiting carreer jobs and jumping in the lawn care biz has doubled and tripled. 11 years ago when I got into it there were just a few advertising in the paper. Now there is around 25. how low are you willing to go to compete? Some one here say you have to keep your overhead low. Well you have to buy commercial grade equipment dont you? i believe buying cheap equipment will cost you even more in the long run and cut down on your production. You have to have so much overhead to run a quality commercial lawncare biz. The overhead is still not alot compared to other types of businesses.
But blaming OSC for losing the accounts to lowballer because he is running a legit biz is just f'ing stupid. This is just the fact of the lawncare biz these day, oversaturation, like we have talked about before. I think its crazy to quit a carreer job with no benefits to start a lawncare biz. This is the one of the business in the US where you income can actually go down through no fault of your own.

[awm]

My favorite wds of Churchhill after England had withstood germanys attemPt to subdue them with bombing.
YOU NEVER EVER EVER QUIT THE FIGHT.history buffs will know Im off a little on the wording,but the points there.
Osc you built a good lawnservice .If you can do that youll be alright whatever you do . LUCK TO YA

[DublinLadd]

I,ve been in the Irrigation buiss. for 17 years. Everybody and there brother started a company took a few of my accounts. But within 5 years or less they were gone. Some of my old accounts would call me back and wnat me to fix there system cause it wont run..........not.......I only stick with the accounts that were good to me.
Kinda funny watchin some of these yards dry up LOL

[turfguy33]

I have been a member of Lawnsite for a couple of months now, and until recently, learned a great deal about the trade. I'm not going to say that I have all the answers, cuz I don't. But I can say that I do the best job I can, I purchased quality equipment, read alot of info, and joined PLCAA. Hell, ask Nilson, how many books I have bought from him. My point is, I'm learning something everyday, and that is why I joined this site. Within the last couple weeks, every other thread has been about low-ballers, scabs, scrubs, and crapsmen, Now, without doubt, this is scarring our industry. But complaining to each other is not going to help matters out. In our neck of the woods, there is alot of competition, and like I can see, everyone else has the same problem. I have thought about, and have talked to other lawn care professionals in my area about starting a
Local association for our industry. We have talked with the mayor and the chamber of commerce about it. Our goal is to make all lawn care companies within our area to not only be liscenced and insured, but have a special contract liscense to do the work. This includes everyone that transports any equipment over the road. If this was inforced, 50% of the low-ballers would be abolished.
Think about it, plumbers, electricians and carpenters all have to have special liscenses to do the work commercially, why not have the lawn care providers do the same.....

[lawnboy11]

wah wah wah

[HOMER]

Good luck with the golf course...............and I would love to play with those new toys you have!

I don't have any of those high dollar accounts and I suppose I won't since they are few and far between here. I understand your frustrations, I can get frustrated over $1000.00 a year. I think the key to longevity in this or any other business is to keep your eggs spread out, I wish it were different but in my area it isn't. Nobody likes running their a$$ off to make a dollar, it would be better to plant it in one or 2 places and make the same dollar. The day will come, as in your case, when somebody leaks out some info to another contractor and you lose the bid or somebody with no experience comes in, just like I did a few years ago, and bids low............but the low bid was really high to him(as it was for me). After leaving a job that only paid $35,000.00 a year and finding out I could make twice the money mowing grass for a large company I thought I was $hickin' in high cotton..............luckily for me I did not get it...............they had enough sense to realize I grossly underbid the job and they knew I couldn't do it. It was a lesson in life for me and more than that it was a blessing. Had I been awarded the bid I would have tied up every day just working on that, not getting any more yearly accounts and not securing my future. I'm not at all saying that this is you, it probably isn't, what I am saying is every dog has his day. If these folks that took your account are like I was, they just cut their own throat and it won't take them long to realize it.

My next point:

listening to the responses from the new people on this forum, I truly believe they are finding that instead of lowballing, they can actually make better money than they realized. I think educating these new guys ultimately will benefit all of us. The fact of the matter is 6- 8- 10 - years ago there were still new people getting into this business, there was no Lawnsite then. They came in and took accounts from established businesses like yours and mine just like they are now, some failed and some are still in business. The ones that failed------failed to realize the physical aspect of the business as well as the time needed to get established. They under-cut others and made no money at all. The ones that are still going and growing are the ones that listened to good information, did their homework and adapted to the physical demands. This ain't easy work and there are folks that will hang it up cause they just can't stand the heat. Lawnsite isn't the problem and neither is new shiny trucks. People are sick and tired of being kicked around by corporate America, they are looking for a way to be independent and make their own living. They are being thrown out, shut down, laid off, fired for petty indifferences, and all other reasons. Lawn care seems to fill a void. They can take some of that pension, buy a mower and a trailer and hit the streets. Lawnsite didn't do that to them and neither did giving out good advice. We never look at the plumbers, electricians, home improvement companies, car detail centers...........all of these industries have new people starting every year as well, and yes they take business away from established companies.

I don't have the answer, nor does anybody else. It seems like I have been doing this for 20 years and I only started in 96........part time! Will I survive? I hope so, at least until something more appealing comes along. If I choose to go into another form of business will I take others business away from them............I hope so, that's the name of the game.

I still feel like the best way to approach the situations we are faced with is to get out and meet some of these new guys, get to know them and inform them that you are willing to help them all you can, you would just appreciate them staying off your turf! I have done that with 2 or 3 already this year. What can it hurt. Sometimes it won't matter, they will still bite you in the ass but your averages will be higher that they won't.

Again, good luck with the golf course, I wish you the best.

One last question though. Having never owned a golf course, I'm certain that you will have to ask a question or two from other owners or managers. What if you had no source of information, what if they were afraid that if they told you something they might put their own course in jeaopordy? The truth is you have to depend on others for help sometimes.

[VLM]

A Tale of Two Cities...

I think Homer hit the nail on the head. The net result of this forum is beneficial to our industry. The new guys learn how to do quality work and how to appropriately price their work. I don't believe a single one of the "scrubs" we see out there even own a computer let alone are coming to this site.

But ultimately, and I hate to say it, the area you work in determines the success you can have in this business. If you live in a low to moderate income area I am afraid you may never have much financial success in this business. It's a hard cold fact, but I keep seeing these kind of posts from guys in FLA and out in the hinter lands of this great country of ours. Lets face it, lawn service is a luxury and only the most affluent can afford to pay you the top dollar your hard work deserves.

[GrassMaster]

I personally think this should be a seperate post & if it doesn't get moved, well I save it for later since so much Mumbo Jumbo gets repeated any way here!

Did I hear someone Cry Out GrAssMaster in another post, Well here I's (that's I is for you uneducate folks)?
BTW, if ya don't like my post, start clicking to go somewhere else! :-)

Let's get Chuck & Lawnsite Forum out of the way first!

First of all I want to say to Chuck "Thanks a Million for this Great Forum!"
Now if everybody would quit trying to decide the fate of this forum & worry about you, your business & yo family you bees better off! That's a Fact Jack!

One thing we all KNOW for sure is Chuck knows what to do with this Forum better than any body at all on the Internet & if he wants to make it pay, believe me he will? I got a Great Idea, I read in other post that members think this should be a pay Forum & it would weed out the Riff Raff, Scrubs & Lurkers, that wouldn't pay for valuable information, people pay high prices for information about the Green Industry every day. Do they need too, well I don't have a clue if they should or not? LOL, :-) Experience is the best teacher.

Well, that is as Stupid as saying This is a Free Country! You think this Man Made Rocket Science about the Lawn Service Business, POP SECRET Green Industry Info is a secret & only should be for the chosen few that might pay a dollar or two, to come here to learn the Secrets of the Golden Rivets that hold a Lawn Service Business Together & make their profits go up? I don't think so! There is no secrets, most failure is due to lack of learning the business the right way or others trying to make it so complicated that it would be easier to clean up Oil Spills in the Ocean. It's a simple business, it doesn't take much start up money, it sure don't take a Rocket Scientist, anybody & their brother can start one up & the ones that run it simple & Keep it less complicated are the Survivors. Yes, It's the easiest business around, except maybe baby sitting & if you get over about 5 men, LOL you are a Highly Paid Baby Sitter Butt your overhead is higher? Go Figure

Want to get in the painting business, buy your self a Paint Brush, Roller & 8' ladder or you want to start a Roofing Business buy your self a Truck, Hammer, 24' Ladder & you in business! The competition is what keeps us in business, if your not the competition get out & let the Real People step in & take over? I wonder how much Rocket Science is in the Painting & Roofing Business? Not as much as in this, I bet? It's what you make it & that's all period.

Oh no, I'm getting off topic on this Off Topic Post!

Maybe Chuck should have one of the Forums a pay forum, butt who am I to decide this? Butt if he did, we could call it the Brainiacs Forum or Rocket Science Forum. You could tell guys that might make $20,000 a year to hire a CPA, LOL, if you make $20K a year you need a 4 door dually to pull your 12 ft single axle trailer, get a Lawyer to write your 4 page residential contract, if you break out a customers window let their Homeowners insurance pay for it, if you get a $100 job make them sign a contract & get it notarized? The Stupidity could run Ramped & the whole world could wise up, butt only for those chosen few that would pay a buck or two, LOL. Yea never own up to anything & always pass the buck whenever possible? This is what makes Great Business People in the Lawn Service Business! No I do not think so!

Back to Chuck Now
He has stiff Competition & many are Great Numbers with lotsa Money? I'm talking about the Big Commercial Mags & Commercial Equipment Manufactures. Chuck I mean this in a kind way so read all before you Delete my Membership?:-) Who has more Money & ManPower Chuck or the biggest Green Industry Mag on the Internet or Some of these Multimillion Dollar Equipment Manufactures? Well I think Chuck is at the bottom of the list as far as Money & ManPower goes? Yes, I'm probably right? If he does have more money let me Know so I can re word my post! Who is the Biggest & so far all others have failed? It's not the one with the Biggest & Mostest. It's Chuck, because he figures out ways to better this forum? Hard to believe he's that smart, butt can anybody else explain this to me any other way? Let him do his job, if you want to help him? Pretend this is a Forum, you love it with all your heart, do everything you can to keep it in a forward direction, let Chuck perform the actual task in running a forum & the administrative duties. Not enough & you want to do more, tell everybody you see about it, still not enough, mail him some cash, LOL that works with just about anybody. Is it tax deductable (Here we go again it's Rocket Science at it's best)? Go to the Elements of Business Forum & ask there or if you make over $30K a year I'm sure you got a Team of CPA's there to help you with your $10 donation, shoot make an appointment with him & talk to him or her about it a couple of hours, tell your CPA about this forum? LOL, LOL, LOL.

But just as the folks that are so worried about their Competition finding out about this Forum, Chuck is not worried about his Competiton, I bet he doesn't worry about them at all! What do you guys think? He goes to another Forum & Post that he is worried about the Big Boys finding out about his Forum, his Forum Secrets & they will put him under? No, I do not think so? He's too busy bettering himself & his Forum! Another Fact!

Chuck is the Competition & the others have to follow & LOL, try to KEEP UP with him at no Success. They still can't out do him & I have even tried, yes he was even kind enough to give me a forum to let me try, I even started one my self, well I failed at both. You know why because instead of worrying about others success, being scared of the Secrets of the Golden Rivets that hold this Forum together, he just figures out ways to make it better & as always he is more concerned about helping others & that's what we should all do. Butt quite a few try to make decisions for him? Why, shoot I don't know? If I did I wouldn't be here making this record breaker mile long post? Would I?

Everybody has their place in business, do you think Krystal is worried about Outback, Jerk it City worried about Dell, Maco or Earl Schribe worried about the biggest local Good OLE Boy Body shop in town? No, they all have their place & so do we? All Commercial Big boy web sites cost them Big Bucks to run & not making a profit in years, not a dime, I make Money off my website & Chuck makes Money of his. Why can't the Big Guys, well shoot I don't know, Butt I'm glad I'm on the receiving end? :-) The Manufactures will soon be making money on their websites & that's why Local Dealers are declining instead of growing. That's another story!

If you guys would worry more about your Business & let Chuck worry about his Forum, I bet you a Jar of MayHaw Jelly your income would go up? That's another fact Jack! If you don't know what MayHaw Jelly is, it's your loss & you probably live up Narth?

Now folks are concerned about the number of folks in Pa. that is here in this Forum as compared to others, well it might be true & if you check into it, I bet they are making more money an hour than a lot of other areas of the country. Well, Good for them, it Probably means they are more EDUCATE than others? It makes sense to me? I'm from JawJa & I 10th grade Educate, I ain't worried about anything except will it continue to rain after Easter & the well being of my family? That's all I'm worried about nothing more & nothing less.

I don't even now what or where Pa. is, I missed Geography in the 6th grade due to Massive earaches, I needed my tonsils taking out, but my father was worried that I die if they were removed (LOL, he said they filter out poisons in yo body), he should have been more worried about my missing school & me loosing my hearing later in life? Wish he had a forum to go to, so he could have got more educated? Butt that's another Story.

I come here to learn about others & to contribute to help others. Yes, making a buck or two on the way. That's why Chuck is here too & he's done mighty well with it? But he has Capitalized on helping others & gone the extra mile with it & I thank him for that. Wish I could do as good as he has, but I don't have the time to worry about Mumbo Jumbo that I have no control over & neither should other folks. Worry about You, Your Business & Family first! I got my place, Chuck has his place & you have your place.

If all people in the Lawn Service Business came to this Forum, it would weed out at least 50% of the Companies in a very short period of time & the Survivors would make more money! You can't worry about the competition, you have got to be the Competition & if you are not, go back & get that Gravy Job that pays good, with good benefits & no promise of a future tomorrow? I'm not going full time because my company has good medical benefits. Good for you, let $400 a month keep you at a job that has no promise for your next paycheck? That's a real good excuse, LOL that's Gods way of eliminating the weaker so the strong can survive. But I as everybody else thinks different & that's the way it should be! :-) If we all thought alike this Forum would not exist!

What can we do to Better Ourselves, Others & this Forum?

Come here to this Forum, give it 100% support in a positive way at all times, all it will do is make this forum better & our lives easier. Let Chuck decide what's best for this forum, because nobody on the Internet can do any better at all, because Chuck proves that every day & others look Stupid trying to decide for him, another fact, don't believe me look around?

When you see others in the business struggling, offer to help them, Chuck has done this & look where it has got him, a lot further than all others, what if you helped all the others & 50% get wiped out & you survive. LOL, you will make more money in less time? If you worried about the Competition, do something about it, if you can't figure it out, go back to work at the Factory & let you Production Supervisor tell you when to go to the bathroom & how many times you can call home & check on your Wife & Kids? (LOL, if you worried about where your wife is, you do not need to be married, because believe me there is someone a lot better than any of us just around the corner, next door or maybe one of yo in-laws, it's common here in the South, LOL.

Us business owners want to be free & Money is not our only concerns, most of us that are any good at all couldn't loose our jobs if we tried, because we know Common Sense is the Strongest thing we got to battle others with & to help ourselves be better business people. Leave that Rocket Science for Major Corporations that clean up Oil Spills! This is the Lawn Service Business, nothing more or nothing less! It's proven every day! Make it Simple, Keep it Simple & the Money will come in like you have never seen before! When is the last time you made a list of all your business problems & figured out a way to actually make then easier & go away. If you are just adding more things to do to perform your job & the Problems are increasing, well you need to refigure your situation?

If you think you are #1, well you probably are! If you look like #1 you probably are! If you are worried about the Competition, you are probably not #1! If you see another company out there that you think might be better than you, their probably #1 & your #2 or less! Change it or get out of the Business!

Do something about it, get out of the #2 business & step on up to the plate & be #1 in the Lawn Service Business. In order to do that Worry about your business & your business only! The others will take care of themselves. it's a know fact? Chuck is doing a Might Fine Job by himself & if he needs help he will E-mail you. If you want to worry about something else try this? Hope I don't go back into the Lawn Service Business in your area! If you are the Competition, then you will not worry at all if I'm there or not. We all have our place & let's keep it that way. If you disagree, Sorry just my thoughts! Do you actually think I'm worried? Nope, Just worried about if it will continue to rain after Easter & the well being of my family. I do not have time for anything else! :-)

BTW, I forgot what I was talking about, I had a lot more to add & somebody mentioned me post something about retail. Well it hasn't been a month yet, I try to stay on Schedule with that post!

BTW, BTW: I forgot this TOO! How many of you guys think you make as much money as Stone does? LOL, Probably not many. I bet you he never worries about the Competition, you can tell by his post that he has figured out a way to have very little to worry about. I bet he mainly works on ways to better himself & doesn't have time to worry about Johnny & Sons Lawn Scrub Care & Landscaping Inc. or LLC.? LOL

BTW, BTW, BTW: If you are #1 you have nothing to worry about! I do not want work because I'm one of the Cheapest or Most Reasonable, I want work because I'm #1 & I am the Competition? Again we all have our place & we should strive to stay there & there only at all cost! It works TOO!

BTW, BTW, BTW, BTW: If it was a pay FORUM from other post I've read Today, it looks like it would eliminate a lot of problems, butt who would join?

[Eric ELM]

I hope it didn't take you as long to write that post as it did for me to read it. :D

WOW

I think you need a new name, Longestpostmaster, not to be confused with a Postmaster at the Post office. ;)

There was enough words in that post for some members to make over 100 posts out of that. :)

BTW, Just kidding, keep up the posts.

[mowingmachine]

It's sounds like some of you guys want to eliminate your competition so you can do a little price fixing. Ain't gonna happen. Competition is a good thing because it gets the price to an exceptable level. Alot of the lowballers probably feel they don't need to make as much as some of you guys expect. Let's face it this job takes no formal education and a 10 year old can do it. I know I started cutting grass when I was 10. It also isn't that hard of work. Long hours but not that physically demanding. I know alot of guys that do work twice as hard for half the money. Maybe it is time to really look at what kind of service your providing and how much money it really is worth. I feel if you can pay for the overhead and make $25 grand that is plenty. You only work half the year in most places anyway. For the guys that expect 40 grand your expecting way to much for what you really do. I don't want to step on any toes but really lets be realistic. Just a thought.
Mowingmachine

[HOMER]

Hmmmmmmmmmm,

I think I would work on the trash truck for $25,000.00.
My goals are a liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiitttttttttttttttttttttle bit higher than that.

I'm not saying that some can't do it cheaper. Not many 10 yr olds are out there on ZTR's either. My 8 yr old can drive it all over the yard but he ain't spinnin' a blade.

Losing $40,000.00 a year ain't easy so let him vent!

[KirbysLawn]

GrassMaster’s post: 2648 words! I’ll try to be shorter.

Lawn Site was not responsible for losing accounts.

Sharing ideas and “secrets” on this forum is not going to give “the other guy” a big advantage. Most of the “lowballers” I deal with know very little about pricing, insurance, licensing, and profit margins. Any help they can gain is a plus to me!

WHAT HAVE YOU LEARNED FROM LAWN SITE? Think about it, what? Did what you learn give you such enlightenment that you can now magically low bid and still make a profit? Probably not!

Lawn Site as a pay site? Wouldn’t work in my opinion, however I would welcome the idea of having the commercial forum open to registered members only.

I had a friend call me just yesterday, said he wanted advise on buying a mower, he’s going to start a lawn business, who isn’t? After talking about insurance, licensing, and all the other considerations he was more enlightened and is giving this more consideration before jumping.

I would LOVE to see some type of educational requirements for companies to own & operate lawn businesses. If you had to take a class & continually educate yourself that alone would weed out most of the low bidders.

Just like many have said already, seems like everyone with a mower is now starting a business. A guy was doing a home 2 doors down from me yesterday pulling a trailer with his 88 Taurus, had a nice Yard Man mower, & his 12-13 year old daughter running the aerator, wonder if he has insurance? He might benefit from this site which would help me.

And lastly, I agree 100% with Stones previous post on this subject, which has me greatly concerned!

Ray

[cp]

Gentlemen, Whether or not you consider a fee should be up to the administrators of the site. But as for me I am just starting out and until I found this site and logged on I was beginning to doubt if I could go through with it.

I have found the responses to my posts to be positive, very knowledgable, and sometimes comedic. It is without saying that the majority of all members are extremely professional and courteous. I was equally proud of the unselfishness and the positive attitude from everyone. I do not believe that the business of "I've got mine now you get yours" has a place among professionals like yourselves.

I would like to add one last thought. Tell how much money I need to make and how to do it? HAHAHA.

Good Luck to All... Chris.

[eggy]

OSC! You my freind have hit it right on the head! Here in Sohtern Indiana..every year prices go down...not up..more and more..people involved....Lawn site will be a question answer area for ranch king owners..ohh well..Unfortunatly I see mowing..no more...I am right with you on getting out of the biz! maybe it is this area who knows...Others will see this soon.

[lakegastonla]

First of all, you are in FLORIDA, and you work only HALF the year? Heck, I'm in North Carolina and I manage to squeak out 10 solid months a year. Second, if you think that making 25,000 a year is "the big time" then you need to do your homework! What in the wide world of sports is going on in Florida?

[1MajorTom]

Quote: I feel if you can pay for the overhead and make $25 grand that is plenty. You only work half the year in most places anyway. For the guys that expect 40 grand your expecting way to much for what you really do. I don't want to step on any toes but really lets be realistic. Just a thought. Mowingmachine

40 grand is expecting too much???? uh, I don't think so.
A family of 4 is hard pressed to survive on that much. Have you taken into consideration the cost of health insurance, and all the other insurances that a family needs to carry?

My husband and I do this for a living. We do not do this so we can put a few nickels in our pockets, and say well, "gee, we're lucky we are doing this because any ten year old could have our customers."

If we were cutting grass on the side and pocketing a cool $25,000 without telling Uncle Sam, I'm sure I would have your attitude also.

[lawrence stone]

Originally posted by eggy
OSC! You my freind have hit it right on the head! Here in Sohtern Indiana..every year prices go down...not up..more and more..people involved....Lawn site will be a question answer area for ranch king owners..ohh well..Unfortunatly I see mowing..no more...I am right with you on getting out of the biz! maybe it is this area who knows...Others will see this soon.

Maybe you should take a civil service test.

I hear the IRS is looking for snitches.

[jjfehr]

You can't make it grossing 30k in a months time? What in the he11 are you pulling your trailer with, a brand new 100' motor home? Just a suggestion, but maybe you should cut your overhead some.

[osc]

Well last night I was hurting over the changes in my market area and I guess I'm still disappointed. However, I would like to reclarify everything I previously posted by saying that this forum is one of the most unique things I have ever run acrossed. The shear response to this thread is impressive to me regardless of the view points. Our industry has issues that need to be discussed from time to time and I have little doubt that Lawnsite is the place where more discussion occurs about lawn care than anywhere else on the planet.

I think part of my problem stems from the fact that I got used to sharing info here and it carried over into real life. I helped many people in my area get started right because I knew they were going to start a lawn business and I wanted educated competitors. It was a good idea but now I think it has jumped up and bit me a little.

I certainly don't mean to take it out on Lawnsite. At this point, I have a few accounts left and I think I'll hang with them and run the golf course. In a year or two, the market may change again and I'll get some of those key accounts back. The golf course is the perfect location to run a lawn biz from as well.

I would like to post some phots of the course and equipment in another thread.

Thanks again for all the replies.

[KirbysLawn]

OSC,could you please give examples of how sharing information on LawnSite has directly affected you,or "bit you" as you state. I'm very curious as to how this could happen and how would you know it was related to LawnSite?

To the folks who say they do not post their trade secrets here because of competition, could you please explain further? What big "secret" do you have that has not been discussed already? I know, you can't talk about it because it's secret and your competition may read about it, please just give us a small hint....

[lawrence stone]

Originally posted by osc

The golf course is the perfect location to run a lawn biz from as well.


It would also be a great opportunity to gain new mid to high end residential business from all those fat daddy warbucks type hackers (golfers not the ones who write malcode).

You don't need to get out of the biz OSC you need new customers.

[grassyfras]

This site is very important to me and alot of other people. If i had to pay for this site i would have passed it right up so i think this site should stay free just my 2 cents but im not going to tell Chuck how to do s job i think hes doing a great job.

Some of people are saying that anyone can start a lawn buisnees even if your 12. When i started this buisness i was 12 too now i am 15 and i have 4k in equipment and im planing to make 10k this year.. To most of u other guys thats nothing and cant do a thing for you but for someone my age thats like being a millionaire.

I have taken most of my jobs from companies but i know that i never lowballed the bids i never even asked how much the other guy was paying when i gave a bid and most people tell me i charge the same amount or more, however i have alot less overhead. So i dont think this site gives scrubs to much good advice on the lawn industry.

[plow kid]

There is always someone bitching about "scrubs", "Oh my I have 100K in
equipment 300 lawn jobs and someone made me lose a bid for a $250 a cut job
by bidding $5 bucks less then I bid"
WA-WA-WA!!, Just because they bid $5 less then you bid you
shout "SCRUB"!!!!!!! "LO-BALLER"!!!!!! Grow up!

[Southern Lawns]

Noooooooo........cutting grass isn't rocket science and you do have a bunch of (scrubs) to contend with BUT! It's much more than cutting grass. We stand apart from these overnight wonders by honing our skills. People skills, product knowledge, exceptional service, reliability,proffesional knowledge to name a few, most if not all of which are not priorities of the soo called fly by nighters. Yes, they may snag a few accounts from all of us from time to time but if the customer is drawn to the fact that he can do the work for much less than he really doesn't appreciate the detail of your work and personally I'd rather have someone else do it for him. I'll find the upper percentile that really wants a good reliable full service lawn care company to pamper.The only thing in life that you can control is YOUR emotions and actions, make it work for you with a positive mental attitude. Your service is of value to many and I'm sure you can turn things around. Alttitude is the direct result of attitude.
Much success,
Raymond

[mowingmachine]

Hey lakegastonla the IL stands for Illinois and yes we are lucky to get 6 months of cutting or about 20-25 times a season. I figure if I could pay for all my equipment and make $25,000 in 6 months time that is great. Thats more then alot of people make doing harder work in my area. Then I have 6 more months of the year to do other things.
I think plow kid said it right when he talks about being underbid by $5. How many of you actually find out how much you were underbid by. I think for most of you guys if you lose the job to someone then they must be a lowballer scrub. Grow up and start playing the game like every other buisness. Your going to have competition and someone can always afford do it cheaper. So how did everyone pick up the jobs they have right now. It must have been because you bid higher then the guy before huh. There is no set rule on price when it comes to mowing, that is why there are bids. Getting underbid by someone could merely be a misjudgment on their part and unfortunatly for you the job is now theirs but there is always next year.
I understand people have bills to pay and families to take care of but there is just times when I think the expected cost of mowing is a bit overinflated. The comment has also been made several times that there are alot of lawn care buisnesses with shiny new trucks all the time. That right there is a sign that there is more money floating around then should be. Just a thought.
Mowingmachine

[Getmow]

My 0.02. Information is the key to leveling the playing field. Sharing thoughts and being educated in the proper ways of business can only HELP in the long run. Some trade, operational and pricing tactics should be kept to yourself but the basic information educates the competition.

[Mid Rivers]

This is the best place to learn (other than on the job). If this forum wasn't here I am not sure where I would be, but I do know I would be a lot less educated on many subjects.

If this turns into a site that charges for access I would gladly pay.

Keep the information rolling because it is ignorance that causes problems not education!

[Remsen1]

This is America, America is based on competition. You have to figure out how to do it better and cheaper than your competitor. Your life would really suck if there was no competition between the grocery stores that you shop at and the gas stations where you buy your gas ect.

[Rob]

The fact that anyone can come on this site to participate by sharing their ideas is a good thing. Making lawsite a "paid" site will not eliminate competition. As professionals we should welcome competition and know that we provide a better quality service that customers will be willing to pay for. The clients that simply take the cheapest price probably aren't worth having anyway. If anyone doesn't like competition, perhaps they should take a good look at their business and ask themselves why.

Think about it, every spring a whole bunch of new guys pop up with brand new equipment / trucks etc. and under cut the professionals. By years end, that equipment will be up for sale because they did it "wrong" and can't meet their payments or your "Stolen" customers are calling you to do their fall cleanup because their guy went back to school. (We all know the answer to that call) This is where the client gets the appreciation for the real professionals.

Perhaps the best way to stop this cycle would be for the equipment companies to stop giving equipment with "no pay for X months" clauses. Then only the truly dedicated / financed companies can get in, rather than anyone who thinks that landscaping = lawnmowing. But than again, that hurts us all.

Just my 2 cents

[George777]

Being new to this business I must say many of you are all concerned about others business. I must agree with Grassmaster. I can't let other business in my area take we off the path and slam me in the weeds. Heck I's not even got a ztr, but I'm proud to be in business with my partner.I see rigs all over the place here in GA. and I see everyone has a walker out here but, I'm not snivelling. I know that if this is what I want I can have it.

I have learned so much from this site and I'm very fortute to have found this site. I one day might be able to help others who is just starting out.

Kris, from New York has responded to every question I have posted. He has always given me awesome advise. I know most of you have years of knowledge about this business and I wish you would not fear others stealing your so called secrets.

Homer, has envited to his home town to teach me the ropes, Even after he was burned by a so called friend. Homer ya awesome buddy. This is the kind of people I want to learn from and assioicate with.

Grassmaster, has helped me understand about bidding after I messed up on doing a hedge job and should have gotten 150.00 more. I bet many of ya would have called me a scrub. Hey ya learn from mistakes, at lest to me my mistakes are my biggest teacher thus far. Oh I forgot to tell ya Grassmaster is in the town next to me.

I believe that if you help someone, it will come back to you 10 fold, or if you hurt someone it also will come back at ya 10 fold. I guess we all have a choice, help or hurt, help or hurt.

[AltaLawnCare]

I believe if a market is saturated with just plain "cutters" , maybe one should branch into an area not as easily started up such as Hydro-seeding or pesticide/herbiside apps. I'm preparing to get a commercial applicator for hire license now. I have a college degree (in business),and this material looks pretty complicated to me! So much for this not being rocket science Thats a fact jack!! (I've been dying to use that one :))
As for me the info here on this site has given me strong confidence in my bids, so as not to low ball or allow anyone to convince me I'm too expensive.

[Eric ELM]

I have chatted with Grassmaster for almost 2 years now. I have chatted with Homer for a year and I met him at a meeting in Nashville. You have run into 2 top notch guys and I'm sure they can teach you plenty. Good luck George.
Eric

[osc]

What I meant in my last post was that I got used to the free flow of info on the internet and I applied it locally as well with my competitors. I helped out some people whom I knew were getting into this business LOCALLY. Some of them have a lot of money already and I knew they could make a big dent in the market.

I know my market well and I know every account and who has it and for what price. I worked hard for that info.

One guy bought 20k in equipment before he had one account. After he had the equipment, he started looking for business to pay for his new toys and the harder he looked, the cheaper he got. I decided that it was better to confront this head on by calling him up and introducing myself. I ended up giving him several thousand a year in business because I was overloaded and I wanted to keep him busy. That situation worked out fine and were both happy. He just wanted a retirement hobby and I wanted him to stay the heck away from my favored accounts. He is now swamped with what I gave him and wants no more. But it was scary to have a semi-retired, wealthy 40 something pulling up to your accounts with a trailor full of Dixie Choppers pulling it with a new Ford f350, four door, dually with chrome every where. And the guy has money to burn.
But it didn't stop there, more people exploded into my area than ever. Some of the info I provided did come back to haunt me in other cases.
I just don't think it is good when a $300 cut that seems to be too cheap in the first place gets bid at $200 while all of the expenses are going up.

Know any garages that charge 7 bucks an hour for their mechanic?

Again, I'm really not blaming Lawnsite but I did loosen up and I think I let my guard down locally and it was here that I got comfortable with that exchange of knowledge. Actually, it may not have made any difference in my losing accounts but locally I feel that I did help too many people.

[KirbysLawn]

I just did and got it that time. :)

[born2mow2001]

i have to agree with those who wonder about the wisdom of giving your potential competitors free advice that you earned with your own hard work. i've had people call my ad from the newspaper and ask me how to bid jobs! i don't see much differnce here. it's hard enough to make it in this business and it's going to get tougher in the next couple of years. giving someone encouragement is one thing but telling them how to bid jobs ect.. is nuts.

[sgreanbean]

I am new , 2 years, I am not a scrub, professional and willing to roll with the punches,but i still need advice from the "elders". i myself would be willing to pay a membership. knowledge is power and power is money

[osc]

Yesterday I got a bid request for a 30 plus acre site, out of town. Cut 30 times a year. Could be sweet! Maybe things won't turn out so bad.

[yardsmith]

Geez what a thread!
I agree with many points; I also agree with jmmartmel that a free week to "look" & a 'pay to play' would help to weed out scrubs. Giving away info to guys who lurk doesn't exactly set well with me either; most of us have learned lessons the hard way, & with alot of sweat.
With the info & knowledge I've gained over the last year or so, I'd be happy to pay $35 a year to access the wealth of knowledge here & contribute as well. You don't see stockbrokers giving out free advice do you?
A yearly access fee is a 100% write off anyways, & would help "raise the bar" to keep freeloaders out. So would making sure all LCO's were licensed & paying their taxes, workmans comp, etc. but that is another story.
Anyways, OSC I feel your pain. To those who always say scrubs go out of biz in 2-3 years forget that there are usually (depending on size of your town) 5-10 or more new scrubs starting each year, & plenty of new ones the following year to replace the ones that die!
But targeting higher end areas will help, and anything that will increase the "low barrier to entry" point will help too. Just my thoughts & observations........


[Edited by yardsmith on 03-21-2001 at 10:27 PM]

[13yearoldcutter]

I know how it is, I'm only 13 how my name states and I cut grass. You all probaly think I'm a pain but I do have some equipment. A toro ridind lawnmower a weedeater, couple walk behinds,etc. I cut grass only in my neigborhood. The lawn service guys are always ***** to me. Now all the dudes in the neigborhood is trying to cut grass. They charge a lot lower also at like $10. What can I do to eliminate them.
Thanx

[Administrator]

WHEW ?!?

[awm]

i have to agree with stone here.someday lawnsite
may be big enough to affect the vast numbers of lcos
out there.but not yet.probably not 1% veiw lawnsite.
people are just looking for ways to make money any way they can.
my figures based solely on my impression of the big picture
and given as a guess.so lets not get into that.later

[summitgroundskeeping]

We are in business. We are good nice people. SO what if we want to help out others in our industry? I don't think that somebody who considers your rich for having a trailer is coming to lawnsite to get information. Hey man there are well over 48 LCO's in my TINY area, and I'm doing great. You sound like Metalica v/s Napster. By you giving up because some smucks are getting your business, makes me wonder what kind of business man you are. But don't get me completly wrong, it is sad when an LCO looses their business like that. I hope everything turns out okay.

[summitgroundskeeping]

If you are a large LCO, why not buy out some of the real LCOs in your area and wait for the others to loose all their money. After they loose their money buy their equipment and expand until you can monopolize your community. It's a little risky, but it could work. I can't buy out my communities' LCOs, but I will buy their equipment after they go out of business this season, and then I will expand my empire.:blob3:

[SLS]

I would pay dues to LawnSite too. It is a great source of info and has saved me time and money (and possibly frustration) several times this season. Thanks to all who have heard my calls for insight and shared it with me. :)

As for part-timers, lowballers, s@%&bs, etc: I say "God Bless 'Em!"

If you stick it out long enough in one area, do good work, and keep your name and number visible and you will get the calls when they "wash out". I have had several of these "I need a new lawn guy and..." telephone calls this week alone. Must have been the rainy spell...grew REAL FAST...then got REAL HOT....could see where an old 42" Crapsman might not keep up.........

It is actually easier to explain why you charge more than the last guy after they have dealt with undependability, excuses, crappy service...and so forth. They see that the lawns you maintain up the street are done regularly and with attention to details and that you have done so consistantly. They are coming off a bad experience (by being cheap) and are easier to sell because they can SEE WITH THEIR OWN EYES what their neighbors are getting for that extra $15....which is, something that their not getting now...heheheh!!!!!!!

When I see the little rusty tractors in the back of the beat-up Datsuns I just smile and say to myself."Yeah, baby....BRING IT ON!" :D

PEACE!

[Jim Corcoran]

I feel that I am fairly new here,but here is my 2 cents worth.
I don't think that a membership fee is going to keep out your competition here. If I was here to take biz from my competion,than I would pay the fee and still go after the info provided here. What's to stop that from happening? Frankly there were alot more classified ads when it was not fee based. Not to say that is a good thing,but it is a fact. I still peruse the ads and I also go to Turfquip.com to peruse there also. But I don't see where it has been a success(nothing personal).
As for the info available here,and how it could be used against you,well that is available anywhere,if your competion wants it badly enough. In all business,service is key. You must exceed your customer's expectations. Have you ever bought something more expensive,because you percieved it as a better product,because it was more expensive? This is called marketing. You must market yourself and your company to your customers. It's kinda like making your customers proud to have you as their service provider,versus the one the neighbor uses. Kinda hard to explain,but I think you all know what I am saying. Take pride in your work.

[Scotty]

First of all, for those of you who feel you need to pay a fee for this site, please do so. I enjoy reading the information here and giving information when I can, but I will not pay for this site. The thought of charging a fee to keep the nonprofesional from reading the top secreat information is crazy. Why not share information? When I have an employee thats been with me for years, I encourage them to start their own lawn service. The good thing about that, I can refer new customers to them. Instead of just telling them, no I cannot provide lawn service.

I don't mean to put anybody down, but if your loosing customer because of the price, you probably don't want them anyways. I have found over the last 18 years in the business, if your doing a good job and the customer is pleased with you, their not going to entertain new bids. I'm kind of thinking, maybe you need to do a better job if your loosing customers. I can't understand, with the amount of people who require lawn service, how can anybody be short of work. I think we have turned down about 50 lawns since April.

So in conclusion, don't feel threatened by sharing information. The reward of knowing your input has helped several other people make the right choice about something is quite a thrill.

[Scag48]

SLS-I hear ya man! I see all the guys around here with beater mowers and beater trucks. Just thinking, "won't last a week with that P.O.S., not in this biz". I'm glad I bought my Groundsmaster, now I can do all the bigger props. that the other guys won't do and do a better job than they do as well. Guys that are whining about not having enough work, go whine somewhere else. If you know you do better work than the other guy, don't worry. I know I do better work, but I have to prove it. I gotta get my name out a little more then those guys will dissapear. I'm not worried. I live in a town of 3,500 (or something like that) and there are 6 or 7 other guys out there lowballing me. Do I care? No. Wanna know why? Cuz I kick the living Cr@p out of their work. I stripe ALL of my lawns. A competitor mows a lawn next to one of mine. I showed up to mow and looked over at it...The obviously had to double cut and when they did, their stripes didn't match up with the pass they had before, so you could see little stripes all over, not to mention they weren't even stripes, just lines in the grass. Really does look like crap. And they cut it about an inch and a half to boot. With 90-100 weather already here and on the way, it's already starting to dry out. The owner of that prop. said that when that guy screws up, he's callin' me. :cool:

[David Haggerty]

OSC "Congrats" on your golfcourse purchase. You're an inspiration to the rest of us looking for the right niche in this market.

[Avery]

Anyone can cut grass. To succeed in this field you have to be a business man. Strive to be number one in your area...someone that your customers cannot do without. Sure there are cheaper guys out there but better? NO WAY! Sell your company to the customer. Show them what you can provide that others cannot. I have less tolerance for low-ballers than anyone on this site I am sure. Not only do I want them to fail I rejoice when they do....and fail they will. I have been in the landscape/maintenance industry since I was 15 years old. I have strived to learn all I can. I have no sympothy for someone who wakes up one day and thinks they can start a landscape business then falls on their face a few months later. I will go to any length to take business from the competition. A few weeks ago one of my customers...a fairly large commercial property mananger that handles numerous accounts was telling me how good a job one of the foremen of another LCO does. Guess what? He now works for me making more than he did for the other LCO. Point is you gotta have a goal. Are you willing to do what it takes to succeed in this industry? Can you run a year at a lower profit margin in order to drive a low-baller out of business? I can and do. I worked for someone else for many years before starting my own business 5 years ago. My gross income has at least doubled every year since I started. This year (not bragging) I will gross around $1,000,000,00. I do agree with what you are saying about this site. Way too many trade secrets are given away here. I never answer or give advice to a thread unless I am sure it was started by a legitimate LCO. And very few are. If you have been in business for longer than a day you know how to kill weeds in driveways or what to over-spray juniper with to kill grass. If you do not you have no business in the industry.
Well this thread touched a nerve. Rambled on long enough. One last thought. To all the legit LCO's on here, perservere! Tough times don't last, tough people do! To all the low-ballers....I will be watching and smiling when you go down in a ball of flames! Maybe you can get $50.00 for your Craftsman mower and Ryobi trimmer at a yard sale. :D

[stick9]

I agree with that Scotty guy. We, at my lawn crew have turned down in excess of fifty accounts this year as well (although we've taken a couple more on even though we weren't going to do so .. i don't know, it's crazy) ... We like to think of it the same way; do great work, and it will come. Maybe everyone shouldn't be so threatened by having a little competition ... it's healthy .. and it makes it so you have to do a better job then the next guy ... and, on the same swords edge, people are willing to pay more to have a better job done (for the most part, at least) .. that's that.



(especially if you gross 1,000,000.oo) :)


stiCk-NINE

[GrassChopper]

Hmm, where do I begin????

I was a deputy sheriff here in Florida for 14 years and got tired of the politics, so I left the department. A friend of mine has his own tree and lawn service and asked if I would like to help him. To make a long story short, I now have a lawn care service.

I found this site through a search engine, actually looking for stats on mowers. I do not know everything about the lawn care business. In fact, I know very little, but am learning every day.

I do not have any signs on my truck (a 1987 suburban) or trailer. But, I have 42 accounts, 9 of them commercial, and get asked EVERY DAY by someone to cut their lawn. At this point, I have to turn them down. I figure I will make about 60k this year.

I was excited when I found this site, a bunch of guys sharing their knowledge about a business I am new to. I am very disappointed that a few of you are bitter about new people to this business. I don't think that giving away your knowledge equates to giving away your business.

As for a pay site, there are other sites where this information is exchanged. This is not the only game in town. It may be the best game, but by making it a pay site, you may lose that distinction.

[crazygator]

Ok here goes. I worked with our family business for over 20 years. We bought and sold machine shop equipment, like the stuff that makes our mowers and all. Ive seen all types come and go with that business. But what kept us going for so long? We always watched our overhead, but mainly made sure we provided the very best customer service possible. In our industry we were part of the top dogs, upper 10%. We were turning $ 850,000 a year, with 8 employees, mostly family. We all made good money, but as with the lawn business every year 1 or 2 more would take some of our business. It only helped us! Their customer got treated like crap and they always came back. WHY? Because we cared and we always tried to do the best no matter what. OK you ask why am I not in that business still? Well our lovely government has made sure to lowball all the major manufacturing to other countries like canada, mexico etc...Am I bitter? Absolutly not. We closed due to my fathers health (as he has a rare cancer, but doing good so far) and the economy. It allowed me to spend time with my daughter, time I would have never had otherwise. How much is that worth? PRICELESS! The lawn care business is the same, except the government will not send all the grass to japan, china etc to be cut. Never lose sight of what we have. Look around you. I am sure you have more than enough to be thankful for, and please do not let any lowballers cause you to stop. If so then they won the game, got you out of the way and will get the next guy who loses focus. If you let them alone, watch your overhead and ways to expand, then they can never get you. They may and will try, but you ARE the professional, they are the WANT TO BE! As far as my past, would I like to have my fathers business? Well sure, it was a great one to have. Do i look back and groan. No way. I have too much around me to do that. Too many times all we see is NOW! Not the future. Let us all look to, and try to help not only ourselves but others future in this business. If we do, it will grow, we will grow, and our business will grow also.

[Island Lawn]

Seems like one can learn by answering questions just as easily, if not more effectively, as just asking questions.

You guys that know it all already, dou you really believe you have nothing more to learn?

As for "raising the bar" here at Lawnsite, it begins with you us.
Our responses to the easy questions from the obvious newbie say alot about our personal level of professionalism. That newbie might have a good idea one day! I want him to share just as much as I want the old pros to share.
The best thing I think we can do is conduct ourselves professionaly and hope it rubs off.

Professionalism begets professionalism! (80/20)





:)

[andyslawns]

i am probably one of those pain in the ass's to somebody out there. I know a guy who cuts grass on the big scale, who likes me. i do all *****y yards he does not want. he goes to look or bid a job, if he does not want it he throughs it my way. it keeps you bigshots from having to use your 6000 dollar mowers on a yard you could spit across. I know i am not going to take over my town or anything, but there is enough grass for everyone. If you do a good job on all your work, and treat your customers with respect they learn to like you, they will not use some other guy thats 10 bucks cheaper, because they know you do a great job and you are reliable. I found out about 3 years ago that if you want to P!$$ off your customers dont show up or call if you cant make it, a freind was doing this to his people. they told him to go away. I picked up about half of his yards. We all had to start out somewhere, you dont become the biggest or the best overnight. andyslawns

[bobbygedd]

i would rather compete with a "scrub", than a proffessional. i know the scrub will be gone sooner or later and ill get that lawn, the pro however is here to stay.

[simplegreen]

This website is like an online soap opera.

[TRINITY]

Wow! This has got us all stirred up. I have been "lurking" around this site for a while to get an idea what the Lawn Care industry is all about. Sometimes I feel all warm and fuzzy about getting into this business and then get shot down by this kind of stuff. I wonder what the "proper" way to get into this business is? I gather that if I read all the free info on this site, buy a walk behind, send out flyers and start bidding on jobs that I would be labeled a scrub. Right? Do you suggest that only the established businesses be allowed to do the work and block all newcomers from coming in? Over the past couple of years my pay from my job has stayed the same but cost of living has increased to the point of me selling off everything I can so my family can pay the bills. As a result I will be jumping in to the Lawn Care business because I have always wanted to and from this site I see plenty of money can be made. I do not plan on low balling to get work, I will have the proper insurance and licencing in place, and I understand my profit margin. Is this acceptable to you guys? It seems to me that if you do a professional job, act in a professional manner, and please the customer you can't loose.

[grassyfras]

Its pretty sad when people ask us if its ok to get into this biz.
Just relax about not-legit people.

[TRINITY]

GRASSYFRAS,

What is a non-legit person in your eyes?

[turfquip]

Back to fundamentals...

The one thing everyone refuses to accept is that overall, the lawncare pie or demand for the service is growing slower than the number of folks demanding a piece. An extended downturn in the economy or even regional drought(s) could shrink the pie again.

So, scrub or legit doesn't really matter; fewer people cutting grass is (or should be) preferable to anyone who expects to earn a living in this business. It's supply and demand folks...and the system was here before you were and will outlast everyone of us! Borrowing from GrassMaster:"That's a Fact Jack!"

But, many of you guys maintain steadfastly that competition is good.

[Spanky]

Bieng a newer member and in the Southwestern Ohio market, times are tough and a lot of guys are carrying equipment in the back of their trucks ready to cut for $20 and a minutes notice.

My overhead is very low, but I charge comparable to others in my area. My (limited) experience tells me that the good customers really don't mind paying for superior service, and I tell them upfront that I am not cheap but my service is unsurpassed by few. I quickly follow up with the service that proves that I am not just a fly by night company but a dependable and quality minded company that is not looking to turn a quick buck.

Perhap I am naive, but so far I have had good success with this method.

OSC, sorry to hear about your market problems and hope the golf course works out great.

-Spanky

[brucec32]

Part of the attraction to this business is what they call in business school "low barriers to entry". Meaning it doesn't cost much in terms of capital investment. It's a double edged sword. You didn't have to lay out $500,000 or $1 million up front for a restaurant or small factory yourself, but on the other hand, anyone with a few grand borrowed can have a decent rig and be competing with you in a week or so.

It's also a given economically that the more profit there is to be made in an industry, the more competitors will join in as time goes along. When there's too many people, profits will drop, then some competitors will drop out and move on to other things, and equilibrium returns.

It's called free enterprise and competition. It doesn't always swing your way, but it's the most efficient way known to man of sorting out who's doing what in an economy.

As far as blame goes, maybe we should look at our nation as a whole and what kind of economy we've set up for our lazy selves over the last 20 years or so.

We have "skilled" workers and "professionals" making one (high) range of pay, and a "labor class" (unskilled, only basic education) making really low wages compared to what they were in the past. Most factory and semi-skilled jobs are farmed out overseas or replaced by low paid immigrant workers. These people have to do something more lucrative to raise families besides work at McDonald's for a living, so they begin to encroach on your business here.

According to what I've read (3 books and countless websites) about it, the recent surge of mass immigration (1 million + a year today vs. less than 250,000/year during the previous "great wave" of immigration earlier in the 20th century) of mostly unskilled, non or semi-literate, and economically limited workers is artificially holding down wages for the "working class". Without mass immigration, willing workers would be in much shorter supply, their wages would skyrocket(don't worry, so would the relative prices you could charge, since everybody has to play fair and has the same higher costs), and you would find a lot of these guys undercutting your prices being quite happy to work for you instead of compete against you.

For one example, I made $8/hour in 1979 as a completely unskilled construction worker(cleanup, ditch digging, etc) at a summer job. Good pay, but it was hard work with no benefits and it was hard to find guys willing to broil in the hot Georgia sun in the summer for much less than that. New hires in this biz 24 years later barely make that much! That 1979 wage of $8 would be about $18/hour today. I bet you could sure find a "lazy" American willing to relax and be your employee for $36,000 a year, rather than try to compete as a self-employed guy, for that wage. Yes, your services would cost more, but the fact is, mass immigration is artificially subsidizing the cost of a lot of things, from restaurant meals to landscaping to home prices to lettuce. It's also destroying the American work ethic, as manual labor is now viewed, albeit tacitly, as "Mexican work" and is becoming socially unacceptable, especially for parents of young people who discourage them from such careers. There's always a price to be paid later for labor "discounts" like that provided by immigration.

So all that cheap foreign labor isn't so cheap after all. It's just basic economics. EVERYTHING has a cost, it's just not always so obvious in the beginning. And many of the costs are hidden ones not paid by the employer.

Not that yours is, but itt's now getting to be time to pay the piper for those who set up businesses that only are profitable with low wage, unskilled, labor. I'm certainly no socialist, but by taking the easy way out (using immigrants instead of raising wages and using more technology and training) we've created a society where a significant proportion of the native population do not make enough to have a "normal" life, meaning own a house, raise kids, have a car, etc. Of course a percentage of them will, out of desperation, look to self-employment to try to better their stakes. Mowing lawns is just the obvious choice.

A young guy who hustles and is smart and honest can make $40,000 or more by himself mowing lawns seasonally if he can get some good equipment. His other choice is $8/hour at a warehouse, or $9/hour at Home Depot, if he's lucky. Which would you choose?

Another politically incorrect fact of life is that not everybody is smart enough or tempramentally suited to be a computer programmer or insurance salesman or doctor or other "professional". What did we think all these masses of low-moderate IQ people, nearly half the population, were going to do? Just sit there and agree to be poor all their lives so that we could have things cheaper? The majority of wealth is created through taking inputs and making outputs that are more valuable, not providing services to each other. If everyone had an IQ of 120 or above and advanced degrees, we could get around this truism through trade, but that's not the case, is it? And it never will be.

And before anyone trots out any "racist" comments. I have no problem with Hispanic people. People are just people. And face it, nobody hires Latinos out of the goodness of their hearts. They do it because they can get more work done for less money. They're basically treated like a class of "coolie labor"...no real connection to our society, but tolerated as long as they're willing to stay low paid and available for our needs. How many people would be howling if they imported 1 million low paid doctors, lawyers, salesmen, brokers, bankers, office workers, etc to compete, or if you could only hire immigrants to mow lawns if you paid double the prevailing wage? So spare me the "we want to help them" baloney. You're hiring them to make yourself more money.

Someone I know well is responsible for hiring literally thousands of them in the construction business, through subcontractors and directly. I asked him how many of them had been over to his huge house for dinner or socializing at his get togethers. Answer....zero. You see, they're not really "one of us" to most people, even though they'd never admit that. They're just a way to run a less efficient economy or business and get away with it...at least for a while. The Hens have come home to roost...the displaced workers are now becoming our competition.

[brucec32]

Originally posted by 13yearoldcutter
I know how it is, I'm only 13 how my name states and I cut grass. You all probaly think I'm a pain but I do have some equipment. A toro ridind lawnmower a weedeater, couple walk behinds,etc. I cut grass only in my neigborhood. The lawn service guys are always ***** to me. Now all the dudes in the neigborhood is trying to cut grass. They charge a lot lower also at like $10. What can I do to eliminate them.
Thanx

I can put you in touch with the guy who whacked that ice skater's knee with a baton.

[brucec32]

Originally posted by osc
You are right I could fail. But there are only so many courses in the area and they are all packed.

I am not saying the industry is going to pot for everyone but I feel the push and afterall this is a dream of mine so what else can I do.

Yep, I know Bent.

By the way, my lawn business did not fail, I am making a decision. I have fed my family for 6 years and we have no debt what-so-ever. My wife is home with our children etc.

I have a thresh-hold or minimum dollar figure that I will be in business for and I choose not to get into a pissing contest with all the newbies.

[Edited by osc on 03-17-2001 at 10:27 PM]

I think you SHOULD find another business to get into. I never saw this as a high income thing. To the contrary, it isn't rocket science, and doesn't seem to be particularly lucrative in the long run. The boom 90's created some big companies and also some big bankruptcies. For the amount of capital investment, time commitment, stress, managerial skills, people skills, and trouble it takes to be "big" in this business, surely you could do something else more profitable.

I got into it cuz I enjoy being my own boss, being outside, having almost no stress, and yes, mowing grass on cool machines. I left the corporate world to do this. Why would I want to create my own little corporation if it wasn't very lucrative? And this industry isn't. It's not medicine or law or high tech, it's landscaping. There are exceptions of course, but most of us can make a decent living at this, that's about it, w/o taking on a good deal of risk and dealing with a lot of competitive threats out there.

If you're willing to take on risk and deal with customers a lot and hassles of being "big" (or even medium) sized, hey...go build houses ! Some of them really rake it in. My dad did it for 35 years and never had a single payroll employee and he retired at 54. So did my uncle. He worked longer and is really loaded. My brother is a builder and lives in a $700,000 home. But all that money comes with a price (heart attacks, no free time, etc) and money has never motivated me. But if you're taking on the bad part of being self employed on that level, at least get rich while you're doing it.

[lawnworker]

In my area, illegals are not a problem yet for lawncare. I do see alot of construction work going to them though.

We need to close up our borders now, for many reasons not just economic ones.

[IBGreen]

:cry: Sorry to say this but you have to get tough and get back into the bidding wars. We all have houses and equipment, trucks, and employees, etc to pay for but we have to just keep on chugging at it.

[brucec32]

Originally posted by lawnworker
In my area, illegals are not a problem yet for lawncare. I do see alot of construction work going to them though.

We need to close up our borders now, for many reasons not just economic ones.


Illegals and Immigrant labor in general is not a big problem in residential work in my area either. My niche is pretty immune, thankfully, but a larger company would have to hire them to compete, unless they were very efficient and creative.

[yardboyltd]

You know almost any person who is a red-white-and-blue american prides itself in the capitalism that built this great country. However it seems when all too many lawnsite.com members (and others) face proper competive business, all they do is complain and give up instead of buckling down and proving themselves.

[LAWNGODFATHER]

This is the #1 supplemental biz in the world.

It don't take a rocket scientist to mow a lawn, as some think.

[coonman]

This is nothing new. How many of us as kids were pushing their mower down the neighborhood streets to make five dollars. All these new startups that you see probably don't last more than a few months. There are always people quitting or failing. I think there is plenty of work to be had out there. Just my opinion!

[Ed Ryder]

There's no shortage of grass to cut in my area.

[Sam-Ohio]

Bruce2 :

I'll bet you are one of the few graduates of the Wharton School of Economics that mows in Atlanta !

Do many of the landscapers have an MBA in your market ?

Your post was terrific - and certainly explained it all.

[freepoint15]

If you cant stand the heat... Knowledge exchange is a good thing.If the lowballers are stealing your business:1) you are too high or 2)their work will be inferior and the customer will return to you.Maybe, you should look at your cost of doing business.Is your overhead too high?Do you really need to drive an expensive truck?You need to look internally for the answers-not blaming your competition.Competition will take your business with lower pricing or better service.Analyze the way you are doing business-if you cant be profitable-get out.Dont blame the exchange of ideas and methods on this site for your ineptitude.

[Flex-Deck]

Here is what I understand about the mowing end of the lawn care business - I may be totally wrong, but just my observations.

1. Once you go beyond solo and hire helpers, the overhead skyrockets with workman's comp - liability, and all other insurance.

2. The worse scenerio is having one helper running the second mower (You now own two mowers) - Guess what you have twice as many breakdowns, and guess who has to take care of them - YOU - You are now spending more time heading for the dealer, and the hiree is out mowing, and I don't care who he is, he will not take the same care on your properties as you will. You spend twice the time not mowing.

3. I have posted before that I feel those that have multiple crews can justify the higher insurance etc involved with hiring people, but to just hire one or two may not pay over solo.

4. I have seen many posts "how much do you charge per hr." - You have to have the machines to do the job in an amount of time that will allow the customer to hire you - "If you mow a yard with a 21" push mower, there is no way you can charge $60 per hr." "If that yard in your area is mowed by most for $25, that is what you are going to get - a push mower may take an hr. and a 60" rider may take 10 minutes" it all comes from the consumer end

5. That means that as an LCO one has to figure out which machine will give him the most acres or sq. ft. per hr. for the least intitial cost. It is possible to make $120 per hr. @ $15 per acre in a solo operation with one machine and one operator that costs approx. $15-$17000. Yes. (Figure investment cost - hrly return ratios)

6. I am jealous of a lot on this site that have been able to gaggle a lot of yards in the same neighborhood - This has to help the bottom line. I do not have that opportunity

Thanks, Brad

[lawnman250]

I have been coming to this site for a couple months now, but only recently joined. I have noticed by reading the many posts that there are alot of very knowledgeable people that run their own lawn care and landscaping business on here. By that I mean the ones that have been in business several years, this is their primary source of income, and therefore have the same type overhead as I do, maybe more, maybe less. We have a business license, commercial eqiuipment, liability insurance, workman's compensation, state and federal unemployment payments, paying half of employee's social security, pay our own health insurance, plus many other expenses.

There also seem to be alot of young guys and others just starting in the business participating also. They are asking for knowledge on equipment, pricing, etc. In many ways it is good for us professionals to share our knowledge with them. Then they will know how to price jobs to that they can make enough money to pay for their equipment, replace it at a later date, and so forth.

Many of the new guys starting out that have none of this information are the low bidders. I have lost many accounts to the low bidders willing to mow lawns for $14 where I was getting $30. I see different companies every year. Many don't last and go out of business, and just as many or more start up. There is plenty of work where I am, but seems every other truck going down the road is pulling mowers. The low bidders are always going to be there, and it seems there are more now than ever.

In the spring when the grass is growing fast and their craftsman mower breaks down, they can't get it fixed the same day, or even the same month, so they can't get their customers grass cut, therefore they lose customers. In less than a year their mower is wore out and they don't have the money to replace it.

I don't really mind the competitors, I have had alot of my customers tell me that someone else offered to take care of their property at a cheaper rate. A few have went with the the low bidder, and from looking at customer's lawn, can see that they don't notice that they are not getting the quality of work they did before. They aren't really concerned about how great their lawn looks, just that it gets cut. I also have other customers that refuse to change change companies due to a lower price because they are satisfied with our quality, dependability, and pride that we take in our work. I have weeded out most of the customers that don't really take pride in their lawn for better customers.

Just maybe by the new or young guys learning from us, they will be competitors doing quality work at competitive prices instead of low bidders. They make end up with a few customers we might have gotten or kept, but not many of them. If our customer is satisfied with our work, he is not likely to take a chance with someone he knows nothing about. If the new guy gains knowledge of pricing from us, and uses it to price competitively, not for underbidding, maybe one of these days we can finally get some sort of pricing standard set.

I have talked with a few people in different areas and found that in their area, the new and part-time guys have started charging just as much as everyone else. The main difference between the two is the part-timers don't have a business license, helpers, pay for any insurance, and alot of them are working for cash money. They could do the same job for less, but aren't. But most of the part-timers I have seen are not knowledgeable in many other areas that we are. Most of them don't have business license or a pesticide license, therefore they can't legally apply pesticides to customer's property, and don't know anything about weed control or Integrate Pest Management. They just mow, blow, and go. 30 minutes later, there is grass shoots sticking up everywhere across the lawn. They can keep the low end lawns, that way I don't have to clean all the weed seeds off my mowers before I go to the next job.

Most commercial properties in our area require that a company have a minumum amount of liability and workman's compensation insurance. I will agree that commercial bidding has gotten to the point that many companies are bidding so low that they cannot make money off the work. They find that out later and therefore cut quality. Then the next year the company is taking bids again. I have pretty much stayed away from most commercial work for that reason. I have all the insurance, but am not going to work if I can't make a profit, and I am definitely not going to compromise quality. With residential, I have found that if a customer is satisfied with your work and takes pride in their lawn, they will keep you for as long as you want to work for them as long as you maintain your quality and dependability.

Good luck OSC, I know in a way how you feel. Hope things work out with the new property estimates.

As for the site being a pay site, doesn't really matter to me, but if it was, I imagine that most members would be the professionals in the business.

[stevelsc1]

:( Hay if you can't keep up with the game it's time to diversify. In 1987 I lost over 50 % of my maintenance division, a big hit. I was pissed beyond words could explain so as the saying goes when one door closes another opens. All these guys on this site have nothing to do with your loosing client's. Take a good look at yourself in the mirror ,get your **** together and grab the bull by it's horns on go to work.

When the going gets tuff the tuff get going!!!!!!!!!!

Have a good year

Look at what are troops are facing, a lot more then loosing a few clients.

Get it in gear, maybe mow some of the homes that have the man of the house over seas for free and see what you get from that.

Doing good in life goes a long way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I built a deck for a family that lost there father in 911 that he started. I go a dozen good leads from my efforts and friends for life for helping them

I'm from the Island so it's 5-6 landscapers per block in the good areas where we work so stop complaining and get off this computer and send out your new contracts

[paponte]

You should have known that this business, never the less any business is cut throat. Take it as you want, but your not the only one getting low balled. PULL UP YOUR PANTIES!! I am new to this site, but yet I have been in busines for over 10 years now. Your gonna go and piss on me? I don't think so!
There is no "non legit" company that would be able to take away any of my good customers in a million years. You must not be doing the right job, if you are losing so much business. Granted, you will lose a house or two, but they arent loyal customers anyway. You should be still ahead by the time you figure in new accounts. You are DEFINATELY doing something wrong!

[IBGreen]

Like I say get tough. At least you're not an Iraqi, now they have some S$%* to worry about.

[Mickhippy]

Well, well. You lot are in the same boat as over here! A few years ago we had a absolute glut of businesses starting up. The problems for me a pretty much the same. We have one franchise co' started up thats for retired over 40's only. Theyed made there money already and just wanted to do mowing for fittness and a bit of pocket money. They can charge next to nothing to do a lawn. This makes it that bit more difficult for people like me to make a living out of it.
I can't beleive some of the numbers I've read on this site.
Think about this,,,( these are just average prices),,, over here an average residential block that takes 45min's for one man to mow with a 21" push mower is worth about $25-$30aust. Thats about $14.70us.
Fuel costs about .55cent us/litre. Bread is $1.50us, 2lt milk is $1.75us, A bottle of Jim Beam is $17.50us (just to give you an idea)
An acreage costs about $30us/hour on a $10000 ride on.
I've been under cut buy $1 by an a##hole and lost a once valued customer. You know what! THATS LIFE. On the other hand I've under cut people buy just giving a realistic price. The other crew were obviously taking these people for a ride and ripping them off. Theres always someone better, faster, cheaper etc and all we can do is just get on with it or get out. On the other side of that, I will go back and forth from dealers to get a better price on a piece of equipment. I'm sure you do to! I'm not saying do if for free but its just the way of the world and its going to get tougher with all the crap that going on.


On the topic of a fee for this site. Get over yourselves! If you dont like talking about tricks of the trade then dont. Its that simple! Just get each others emails and write to each other. You lot that are complaining are sounding like children saying, "you are new so you cannot join our little club" Hell, Ive been doing this mowing thing for years and landscaping before that and if I can give anyone the slightest bit of advice to help him out a bit then, No Worries Mate!

[e-RoK]

I can understand how low ballers and new guys with mowers would upset established LCO's. However in our marketplace, shouldn't we expect that? And I don't think this industry is different than any other. K-Mart got beat by Wal-Mart & Target, Music stars today, gone tomorrow, etc...Everybody has compitition in EVERY industry. With ZTR riders out there it's also easier for people to enter this industry. However I think that's when you need to seperate yourself from some some guy with truck & mower. Diversify. Establish relationships. Also if some people just want their grass cut as cheaply as possible, do you really want them as clients? Those aren't the people who are gonna want muched, or have a walk installed, etc...anyway. I've seen a few people on here who do seperate themselves very well. I have been very impressed with a few of your web sites. Lewis Landscaping for example. That clearly tells me he is not just some guy who cuts lawns. And if I was a costumor in a $250,000K+ home and was looking for a landscaper. He would be someone I would lean towards as opposed to someone doing it part-time after work. Only the strong survive. That's just nature.

Also I don't know if a pay site would really solve any problems for anybody. I would be willing to bet most of the people out there we would consider "low-ballers" are even online. This isn't the most hi-tech industry and I would guess the percentage of people in the green industy online is low compared to other fields. But than again, I could be wrong.These days more and more people are getting into computers for emails & internet. When I used to goto computer shows pre internet days the only girls there were greasy & didn'y shave their legs. Now-a-days you can find some serious babes online. That's a technological advance if you ask me!

[HOMER]

Geezzzzzzzzzz.

You guys from New Yawk are rough cats!

I don't even think OSC comes here anymore.

Whail away though.........if it makes you feel better.

[paponte]

LOL @ HOMER, could you tell i was in a bad mood after that last post? Heh, I'm just tired of people crying, like there the only ones out there.

[lsylvain]

I am so sick of people crying about I lost this I lost that. It's called business. Have you as a consumer every changed the type of coffee you buy? You don't see the coffeesite.com guys crying because they lost one customer. If I go to the store and can buy folgers for $6 a can or off brand for $3 I get the offbrand. Sometimes the off-brand sucks so the next time I go back to folgers. If the off-brand is good I stay with it.

If your competitors are supplying what the customer wants at the price the customer wants to pay so be it. You don't see lotus crying because I bought a used camaro do you? no, they sell the lotus to the customers that want a lotus.

If they don't meet the customers needs the cust will come back to you.

[Toroguy]

Originally posted by freepoint15

You need to look internally for the answers-not blaming your competition. Competition will take your business with lower pricing or better service. Analyze the way you are doing business-if you cant be profitable-get out. Dont blame the exchange of ideas and methods on this site for your ineptitude.

Exactly! The ideas and information you find here are not the answer. You cannot learn work ethic, responsibilty and discipline from a forum.

I like Isylvain's summary also.

[polecat63]

Don't give up!!! Most of these yahoos won't be around half way through the season because they underbid all these jobs. I get call backs from a couple of customers every year because their new company has disapeared. I love these people! They'll pay my prices because they know I'll not only show up, but I won't scalp their lawn or dig trenches with my mowers. These are the people that will now stick with you. We have a local company with a horrible rep, but people keep hiring them because they are lowballers. You can't underestimate the stupidity of most people, but their is plenty of work out there. You just have to look a little harder. So, stiff upper lip and all that! Tally-ho!!

[LINKSCAPE]

I have to agree with you on the level of competition out there. Everyone and their brother are starting lawn care businesses right now and it is discouraging sometimes-but thats life. The way I look at it.....hisory always duplicates itself. Talk to some of the guys that have been doing lawn care there whole lives. The ones who have, have seen this before time and again. People starting lawn care businesses is a direct result of the flow of the economy. When the economy goes into recession...it happens.....temporarily. Obviously, not all of these businesses are permanent....theres no market for everyone. You have to ask yourself why are you doing it......a little thing to feel cool for fast cash and some cool equipment.....so you can be one of those "cool entrepreneur guys." or is this really a career that your IN FOR THE LONG RUN. Furthermore....can you blame some of the new guys (although their numbers are astounding).....you were there once...with the dream and the ambition. Those were the days right? Who is anyone to say they don't have the right?

The truely creative person.......

The truely creative person thats IN IT FOR THE LONG RUN would look inside for some creative ways to help out their business during this time of recession.........I mean wouldn't it be stupid to put all your eggs in one basket......

A Final Note

It feels good to help people but I'd be willing to bet that the people who really know what they are doing in this industry arent spilling all the beans......and why should they

[lawnworker]

I think, we as business owners need to be ready to move on to other business opportunity if and when lawn care just is not making the grade anymore. I know myself, I am not limiting myself to lawn care thats for sure. There are simply to many other opportunities out there in this great nation.

[PRO PROPERTY CARE]

I am a new guy, and I'm pretty sure I have under cut the big guys.
But not exactly on purpose, I am still figureing out my priceing.
Its very hard for me too get help, these guys arent going too tell me how they price there lots. So I have no other choice , but figure it out my self, and that will probably mean going cheaper than I should.
I have very little over head. So I probably can.
I am not getting into this too drive others out of business.
But I have a family to feed and If the local companies want too help with priceing, my phone is still here. If not and I undercut there prices sorry , but I'm doing my best.
If you dont help new people , dont complain when they dont know any better.
just my 2 cents....
chow:cry:

ps, some people have been dealt a hand they dont want. I had a awesome job working for a german company. Made tons of money.But thanks too a bunch of white colar millionares in germany , Im now unemployed and unemployable(due to standards in the industry for my job changeing in the past 15 years) .So we do what we have to do, and being my own boss , is very attractive to me right now.....

mike

[osc]

I posted it. I was just venting when I wrote it. Maybe at that time I wanted to post something that would stir up the beehive a little. It did but many people are replying as if it was posted recently.

So it's time for an update...2 years later...

Nearly all of the accounts I lost called me back before the 2nd cutting of spring. Nearly all of the low ball cutters when out of business, one even quit in the middle of a mowing for an apartment complex. Some of these customers didn't even get proper documents from these guys such as worker's comp, insurance etc. they broke the rules of their own company policies. That's what I was complaining about, all they saw were budget savings. They all paid in the end.
The 40k/year account did not call begging but the service they get is terrible and the contractor wasn't making any money so he set up one of my ex-employees with a couple of mowers and gave it to him. It's now probably less than 20k/year and the place looks terrible. Some of the purchasing guys there have asked me to bid but I have declined.

The golf course went well. I'll try to find and post some pics. Lot's of fun, 18 holes of bent grass, lot's of bunkers and lot's of work. Great money. Long story short, I saw an opportunity to trade down to a 9 hole golf course with blue/rye fairways in a better market. So I am in that process now.

I will have a little more time with this new course and I am currently working on getting some comercial L@L accounts.

This could be a new trend, golf courses doing turf and landscape commercially. We'd love to see that in all of our markets now wouldn't we!

The equipment you can pick up in these deals is a real plus.:blob4:

[outrunjason]

Everyone on here is going to hate me after this.

I am one of the guys that does lawn Service for $15. Yeah I know its $25 and $30 for you guys but you have that customer not me. So I offer a special deal during the spring. You sign up and you get 4 mowings at $15 a mowing and then it goes up to $25. Now they are my customer.

It's business you know. I am the new walmart in your neighborhood but I won't put you out of business. I know how to bring in new customers and more money and that works for me.

Jason

[gusbuster]

Originally posted by outrunjason
Everyone on here is going to hate me after this.

I am one of the guys that does lawn Service for $15. Yeah I know its $25 and $30 for you guys but you have that customer not me. So I offer a special deal during the spring. You sign up and you get 4 mowings at $15 a mowing and then it goes up to $25. Now they are my customer.

It's business you know. I am the new walmart in your neighborhood but I won't put you out of business. I know how to bring in new customers and more money and that works for me.

Jason

Jason,
one question I have, how do you make up the lost $10 per cutting, thru extra services or do you bite it??

I've never offered discounts except for when I got married.(Had to pay a $9000 dollar wedding in a short time) If you got a formula that makes up for that lost income, then I guess it would be ok to offer that discount to gain customers.
My next question, why do you have to offer discounts in order to gain new clients??? Don't you do awsome work that you get customers all the time??

As to losing customer, this trade is feast or fammine. It's been that way for as long as I've been in this trade. Yes, I lose clients to lowballers, but in time, I get better,easier, and higher paying clients in the long run.

Just doing awsome work and a excellent rep does help you survive the up and downs of this business.

As to telling free info to others in this trade... ingneronce(sp) will always cost you money, Always!

Pay site, even though I don't post so much, I do like the info that is exchanged. However, from what I learned from others, I probaly wouldn't want to pay for it without getting something out of it everytime I logged on to this site.

John

[outrunjason]

I only offer the mowings at $15 for the first month. Thats 4 mowings at $15 a cut. It grabs the customers attention because you just don't see a flyer around her offering that. Most companies here give you one free mowing. But you through a $15 at them and I get a call.

why do you have to offer discounts in order to gain new clients??? Don't you do awsome work that you get customers all the time??

I do good work but the neighbor down the street does not know that. But they will hopefully when they see that $15 flyer.

I lose customers also. Most of the time its because they are picky. I don't think I have to explain that one. ex: you left the gate open, I didn't see yall come out, who knows I cant even remember now it has been a while.

Jason

[osc]

Question of the day...

How much money do you want?

My answer is...

All the money I am supposed to get for my product. Whether it's a dollar or a million dollars, I want what the product is worth.

[Flex-Deck]

It still boils down to efficency -

I would guess that most of the members of this site that run 60" ZTR's have the following things going for them. (Remember, this is just an observation from posts I have read)

1. They try to gross 50-60 dollars per hr.
2. They probably pay from $6000 - $9000 for their machines
3. They probably average 2-4 acres per hr.
4. If they want to mow 4-8 acres per hr, it means buying another machine and an employee.
5. Machine costs are now $12000 - $18000. - with empoyee, workmans comp etc.
6. If one machine costing $12-18000 would mow 8 acres and aid in the trimming areas - like under pine trees - inside corners and more - No employees, no workmans comp, no hassle - what would happen?

Per acre cost goes down, overhead goes down, hassle goes down, profits go up.

Visit the sponsor forums - they keep this site going
Thanks Brad

[brucec32]

Originally posted by mowingmachine
It's sounds like some of you guys want to eliminate your competition so you can do a little price fixing. Ain't gonna happen. Competition is a good thing because it gets the price to an exceptable level. Alot of the lowballers probably feel they don't need to make as much as some of you guys expect. Let's face it this job takes no formal education and a 10 year old can do it. I know I started cutting grass when I was 10. It also isn't that hard of work. Long hours but not that physically demanding. I know alot of guys that do work twice as hard for half the money. Maybe it is time to really look at what kind of service your providing and how much money it really is worth. I feel if you can pay for the overhead and make $25 grand that is plenty. You only work half the year in most places anyway. For the guys that expect 40 grand your expecting way to much for what you really do. I don't want to step on any toes but really lets be realistic. Just a thought.
Mowingmachine

Oh, any 10 y/o can do it, eh? That speaks volumes about how well you're mowing lawns, I guess. I didn't know much about striping, proper mowing heights, mowing frequency, sharp blades, etc. at age 10. If all these 10 y/o's can do it, mind sending them my way? Because I can't find 20 y/os who can do it for the prevailing wages out there now. And I doubt many 10 y/o's are into putting up $30,000 in investment capital for a rig to get started .

Half the year, eh? I live in Georgia and I worked today and yesterday cutting down some dead trees (pine park beetles) and will go do a leaf and shrub cleanup on a 2 acre property tommorrow. This year I also painted my house, extended my driveway, fixed my PC, designed flyers and brochures, and a spreadsheet , all of this in my "off time". As far as actually mowing lawns, I work March - November pretty much full speed, then do some in December before Christmas. January/Feb I take some time off and "dabble" doing leaf cleanups, heavy shrub work, and finding time to clean up my own lawn, powerwash the driveway, build a fence, and do maintenance on our cars, trucks, mowers, etc. So part of my "pay" comes from having time to do things I don't have to pay people to do for me , which is worth more than salary. But that said, everybody needs time off, and just because it's not out mowing, there are still many things to be done in the off season.

[brucec32]

Originally posted by yardboyltd
You know almost any person who is a red-white-and-blue american prides itself in the capitalism that built this great country. However it seems when all too many lawnsite.com members (and others) face proper competive business, all they do is complain and give up instead of buckling down and proving themselves.

You have a point there. But perhaps sometimes the competition isn't playing by the rules (laws) and that can get annoying to some of our bigger company owners, I assume, and if people were properly educated, would anger them too, since they're paying for it as well. Here's another bad analogy:

Say you want to buy a new Truck. Maybe you'd want to be buying a Ford if you failed to find out that Ford was not required to really install airbags , just to claim they do. Sure, Ford's cost savings would be offset by thousands of dead/maimed victims who though they had airbags but didn't. But when they tried to get restitution from Ford, the government just winked and refused to enforce the rules, even setting up agencies to assist Ford in their cost cutting . So instead of Ford paying the true economic price for the airbag systems, the Health insurers, families of victims, life insurers, and taxpayers would pay the costs instead.

What if ford also didn't have to deduct and pass on payroll taxes of their workers, and it was winked at by the government and not enforced, someone else would have to make up these tax shortfalls, right? Who would that be? Correct! Of course these tax shortfalls would merely be made up by the rest of us in the form of tax increases. And even though they're not paying into the medicare system, the low wages Ford pays means that these workers can't afford insurance and when they get sick, they walk into the local hospital, which HAS TO TREAT THEM? Wow, the doctors do this for free? Nooooooooo.. YOU pay their bills in the form of higher insurance premiums and tripled rates for YOUR trip to the hospital. Ford of course pays nothing. But then they donate a hell of a lot more to the guys who make the laws about stuff like this than you do, so hush.

Finally, it's illegal to knowingly hire an illegal immigrant. And since they're illegal, they have to take whatever lower wage they can find from unprincipled employers willing to violate the laws of the USA to make a profit, often while chanting the mantra "if they didn't do it nobody would" , or "I'm trying to help them out".

The punishments on the books for this violation are fairly severe. Huge fines, even imprisonment. Trouble is, the government is again just winking and nodding and doesn't enforce the law. Before 9/11, Alabama had but a single IRS agent assigned to cover the state. Real serious there. Police agencies are forbidden to turn over illegal aliens they come accross in their duties to Federal agencies. In fact, the DC sniper was one such fellow who was forced to be released under our wonderful system. You see, we need cheap workers darn it, so we can't be bothered with protecting people!

So, Ford saves tons on its payroll expenses and out goes the 20 year factory Vet native American who knows the system up and down and in comes a $9/hr worker who can do ok if given enough hand signals and there is enough pigeon spanish spoken by his supervisor. But hey, cars aren't really all that complex anyway, right? He can't, however, quickly pick up the thousands of valuable nuances about the job that might catch an error and stop the line before it puts out bad product or someone gets hurt. But managemen'ts attitude is "he'll do". Again, it's obvious many workers in the plant now seem not to speak much English, and the IRS agent sent to inspect sees this. But hey, nobody really enforces these laws anymore! Don't be a wet blanket now. The work goes on, and 250,000 F250 4x4's are sent out with poorly aligned propeller shafts (inspector misread the English instructions ) that will now burn up and fail just after the warranty expires. But that's ok, you, Ford F250 buyer, who got such a good deal, you'll pay for it.

Meanwhile, all these cost "savings" at Ford have allowed them to sell you a loaded F250 4x4 SuperCab for only $25,000, while Chevy, playing by the rules and obeying the laws, has to charge $35,000 to make a profit. You wanted a Chevy, but with this big price "savings" you have to buy the Ford. Lucky you!

Chevy notices all the problems with Fords and protests, only to be told that President G W Bush needs these people's support next election and will have an amnesty ready before there, so GM is told to work harder and learn to compete better................. the light bulb finally comes on over at GM!

Next week, GM begins a massive recruitment drive to hire illegal aliens , layoffs of existing personnel, announces donations of millions of dollars to Senators against immigration reform, candidates running on pro immigration tickets, and "gets with the program" Let the cycle being all over again.

This is the USA. Nothing, not even a few more terrorist attacks, stands in the way of making money. And American consumers love paying less, so until it walks up and bites them in the arse, they can't be moved out of the Malls long enough to care, either.


Go read the news. The vast majority of fight put up to stop better immigration policies and a more secure border is put up by organizations represently industries that hire them.


So basically, when you hire that undocumented guy on the street corner by picking him up and paying cash for the day, or hire the legal immigrant because he works for 1/2 what those greedy American guys wanted from you, feel proud that you're doing your part to make sure Al Qieda agents have free and easy access to our cities...just hopefully next time it's not YOUR city.

I wish the people of Central and South America and various Asian and European lands the best. But the problems can be solved there. Running away from them for a quick buck here leaves many more millions still mired in bad situations, with their most ambitious and energetic young men and women over in the USA, unable to help anything. Just the type of people who would make good freedom fighters.

By today's standards, Our solution in the 1770's to the problems with King George would have been to take boats to France and go find jobs there. Instead, slightly less than half of us, the brave ones, took up arms and kicked the problem out of OUR country. I might respect some of these immigrants more if I was hearing anything about how they're working hard to fix their countries, not just for a few American Greenbacks.


Mass Immigration is, in the long run, a lose-lose proposition for everyone. But even it you win from it, can you live with the consequences to the rest of us, and our children?

[brucec32]

Originally posted by lawrence stone
Maybe you should take a civil service test.

I hear the IRS is looking for snitches.


It's a common error, but you mistook the term "snitch" for being synonymous with "informant" or "good citizen".

A Snitch is a PERPETRATOR of a crime who, to save himself, informs on his co-conspirators.

Merely witnessing a crime and calling the authorities is not snitching. Would I be a snitch if I saw a guy run out of bank with the bell ringing, holding a bag of money and a gun?

It's understandable though that some would call this snitching. They consider not paying taxes to be a conspiracy of the masses. But shouldn't we vote to eliminate the high tax burden instead of violating the laws? And if people want their immigrant labor so badly, why not just come out and say it.....open the borders to anyone!...and see what happens. Might want to own some property way up the in mountains first, though.

[brucec32]

Originally posted by mowingmachine
Hey lakegastonla the IL stands for Illinois and yes we are lucky to get 6 months of cutting or about 20-25 times a season. I figure if I could pay for all my equipment and make $25,000 in 6 months time that is great. Thats more then alot of people make doing harder work in my area. Then I have 6 more months of the year to do other things.
I think plow kid said it right when he talks about being underbid by $5. How many of you actually find out how much you were underbid by. I think for most of you guys if you lose the job to someone then they must be a lowballer scrub. Grow up and start playing the game like every other buisness. Your going to have competition and someone can always afford do it cheaper. So how did everyone pick up the jobs they have right now. It must have been because you bid higher then the guy before huh. There is no set rule on price when it comes to mowing, that is why there are bids. Getting underbid by someone could merely be a misjudgment on their part and unfortunatly for you the job is now theirs but there is always next year.
I understand people have bills to pay and families to take care of but there is just times when I think the expected cost of mowing is a bit overinflated. The comment has also been made several times that there are alot of lawn care buisnesses with shiny new trucks all the time. That right there is a sign that there is more money floating around then should be. Just a thought.
Mowingmachine

A shiny new pickup, if not taken to extremes, doesn't cost that much more to operate than a beater. Because it doesn't break down all the time, leaving you stranded and unable to meet customer demands for prompt service. It requires less money and time spent on repairs. It's usually safer, and you can't put a price on that. And it portrays a much more professional image to people who are sizing you up to see how much you're worth paying. I would venture that a shiny new truck makes you more money than it costs. It also allows you to deduct more in depreciation, which in some cases is better than driving a really old depreciated-out unit. With interest rates at rock bottom, and Trucks' great value retention, they're really not that much more expensive in the big picture of things.

But most of all,

[richard coffman]

I've chatted with other companys here in the Salt Lake City, Utah area and, non of them have even heard of this site. I've been in this industry for 14 years now and yes, I've learned some great tips to better my business and increase my knowledge. but remember , even if there are some new companys in your area coming up through the wood work, don't stress, it too us years to build and perfect what we do. just because someone comes on this site and looks to find new ideas how to do thing, mabe helpes them become more book smart about the industry, but it's the practice out in the field that counts. no one can teach you how to make near perfect stripping on the lawns, it's all through trial and error. don't act like a victum. that only show's the other guy's that there doing something right and getting to you and your business. Making a sucessful business isn't easy. We all know that;)

[brucec32]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by freepoint15
If you cant stand the heat... Knowledge exchange is a good thing.If the lowballers are stealing your business:1) you are too high or 2)their work will be inferior and the customer will return to you.Maybe, you should look at your cost of doing business.Is your overhead too high?Do you really need to drive an expensive truck?You need to look internally for the answers-not blaming your competition.Competition will take your business with lower pricing or better service.Analyze the way you are doing business-if you cant be profitable-get out.Dont blame the exchange of ideas and methods on this site for your ineptitude. [/

QUOTE]

While cutting unproductive overhead is a plus, ideas like cutting back on your pickup show that you're not getting where the real important costs lie.

New $25000 pickup. Operation costs $7500/year (ins/interest dep/fuel/maint/repairs/taxes)

$10,000 used beater. Costs are less, but how much?

Insurance $150/year less
interest (5% of 15K price difference ) $750 less
Depreciation $1800 less
Fuel $200 more (better engines today)
Maint/repairs $800 more (your old truck breaks down more)
taxes (varies) $150 less.

So, the difference winds up being about $1850 a year, roughly. And for this $1850 he gets more reliability, fewer lost hours dealing with breakdowns, a better public image that helps get higher rates, more safety features, and a more enjoyable work day. For about $7 a day, not a bad deal.

The real costs are in payroll and a distant 2nd of Equipment. Nobody I know defines "profitable" and "leaking red ink" over $1850.
Lose just one account because your beater broke down and you missed cutting it that week leaves you about equal.

[BB36]

Originally posted by JVS
How about in order to provide lawn service et.al you need to be a licensed contractor for instance like an attorney or plumber or doctor. These professions cannot operate without a practicing license.
Joe
http://www.jvslandscape.com
Bingo. Thats the answer.But this also adds many questions too, ie.; who gets a license?Who is grandfathered in ?ETC.ETC. In North Carolina Landscape Contractor and Irrigation Contractor companies are trying to get a House Bill 984 and Senate Bill 893 called "Landscape/Irrigation Contractors" passed in the NC General Assembly which will only permit licensed & trained (schooled) Contractors to perform such tasks as cutting grass,planting flowers, maintaining gardens among many other tasks.We (unlicensed) lawn care / landscapers would only be able to perform these tasks if the price of all contracts for labor , material & other items for a job site is under $7500 per calender year.
There is many more details for which i don't have the time to go into right now.
These large licensed contractors are trying to make it so only they (the small minority) can do lawn care / landscaping.
I have copies of this bill that i pulled of the state web site.
Licenses make a good deal of sense as long as it doesn't cost us our businesses.Watch out .

[brucec32]

Originally posted by Gulfstream
Bingo. Thats the answer.But this also adds many questions too, ie.; who gets a license?Who is grandfathered in ?ETC.ETC. In North Carolina Landscape Contractor and Irrigation Contractor companies are trying to get a House Bill 984 and Senate Bill 893 called "Landscape/Irrigation Contractors" passed in the NC General Assembly which will only permit licensed & trained (schooled) Contractors to perform such tasks as cutting grass,planting flowers, maintaining gardens among many other tasks.We (unlicensed) lawn care / landscapers would only be able to perform these tasks if the price of all contracts for labor , material & other items for a job site is under $7500 per calender year.
There is many more details for which i don't have the time to go into right now.
These large licensed contractors are trying to make it so only they (the small minority) can do lawn care / landscaping.
I have copies of this bill that i pulled of the state web site.
Licenses make a good deal of sense as long as it doesn't cost us our businesses.Watch out .

The big guys have already done this in the area of fertilizer/pesticide applications. I think it's a wise idea to have some controls on it, but it's ironic that you have to jump through hoops to spray or fertilize for pay, but any idiot can go grab the same stuff at Home Depot and poison every bird in the neighborhood. I lean more towards libertarian views on this, and let the buyer beware. Certification (voluntary) should be pushed, not more restrictive laws and government interference. I use my PLCAA certification as a selling point.

[lahanko]

When it is all said and done the only true beneficiary of a site such as this are the people or company selling a product. You guessed it, the people who manufacture mowers.
Does anyone really think the cost of mowers is what it should be? Regardless of what happens to the purchaser of lawn equipment, the manufacturer sold the equipment. Seems to be a Win-win situation for the manufactures, and prices are still going up.
Frankly I don’t see the profits here either, cash flow yes, real profits, no.

[AltaLawnCare]

There are serious ups and downs in this business. I just lost a 6 location Municipal bid....the winner was less than half of what I bid........they will be lucky to gross $20.00 per hour.

This company only hurt itself, they probably don't know what the going rates are, and how to figure their costs.

Everyone needs to be educated, and this site can put people in the right direction to get help or learn more so they can survive and compete realistically in the lawn care business.

I've spent lots of money going to classes, siminars, and getting proper licenses to be able to "deliver" after I win a bid, and to know how to bid realistically!

Ignorance is bliss.:rolleyes:

[Mickhippy]

Bruce32, You are a very smart man. Why the hell are you mowing?
You wrote about Ford. I saw a doco about the Explorer, you nailed it on the head when you wrote about under the table payouts etc. It was about roll overs and there unwillingness to "Fix It" There were a couple of hundred people died after they knew they had a problem.
I know you wern't just talkin about Ford though!

About the "War"

God help us all, nobody else will!

[The Hokie Okie]

This is America and people are going to be competitive with prices on every kind of job and if some guy thinks he can make easy money on the side at anything he's going to do it whether its mowing a few lawns or its selling computers. People on lawnsite are just giving him a headstart. If you are saying that a person will learn all the tricks of the trade on lawnsite I would disagree. I have learned alot but not everything. Most threads are equipment related anyway.

[LittleOranges]

I have been a lawncare expert for many years. I take MUCH pride in what I do. It's truly a passion for me. This is only my second "season" in business. I would gladly give advice to all. I would gladly pay a fee for using this site. Just reading the posts and knowing that I'm not the only one who has tough days, is what gets me through those days. To me, that's worth much more than the knowledge. I need this site. Thank you to everyone.

[Trevors Lawn Care]

I was in business before i found this site, and this site just give helpfull pointers, tips and dos/dont's. Nobody is out here getting me jobs, or expanding my business. People can read all they want. They will only do what works for them.


I think it should be a regulated business though.


Trevor

[dvmcmrhp52]

Judging by some of the questions I see posted on this site lately I doubt that too many of the new "woodwork" businesses are going to be much in the way of real competition. They soon will fade away,and I'll be buying little used, but cheap equipment in the near future.JMO

[thapco4]

Everyone seems to be forgetting that every year we get about 100 new competitors for every one of us that sticks it out. Then about 30-45 days from now, about the first day that it hits 110 in Dallas, they all seem to disappear and their clients all come looking to us....
Am I right or do the rest of you not know where to find the new jobs half way through the season.

[PCLL]

"Grossing 30K in some months????????????"

i've grossed 20 each month this year as a 1 man op. i now have 2 dependables and the sky is the limit.

[tiedeman]

I am surprised I didn't see this thread earlier. I too think that the market is going down the drains. I would personally love to just get into aeration and fertilization. More and more I think about it.

[jajwrigh]

When you notice that everyone in town has a truck and a mower in the back its time to diversify your business. Offer a range of services or focus on a specialty. Find your niche in your area and make it work! You have to fight to survive out there and feeling sorry for yourself will get you no where in a hurry!!

[M-and-W Land and Lawn]

I'm a new member to this site and I can not agree any more about how everyone and thier dog is for some reason deciding to get in the lawn care business. But it's how you handle this problem that will determine the outcome. We have been in the lawn care industry for a while now and have not grown much, so we instead have decided to diversify and focus in on the less crowded areas of the green industry.

[SonnyRyder]

Can anyone name a business where there is not increasing competition? Is that not a strength of a capitalistic society and why we all have the opportunity to start and own a business in these great United States? Would we be able to enjoy all the inexpensive luxuries we take for granted every day if there were no competition and drive for improvement, specialization, innovation, etc.?
There are so many options to take a business in a particular direction. You can quit, you can not change and watch those that do adapt to the market leave you behind, you can diversify, become the "one-stop shop", or just be the best at one small niche that allows you to demand a premium. There are more people born every day, more houses going up every day, more open fields, more forests, more swamps being developed into opportunities....lawns to maintain, homes & businesses to be built, utilities to be installed, refridgerators to be filled, etc., etc. I find it interesting the difference in optimism vs. pessimism here....and also that this thread has been going on for over 3 years. If I stick around here...I look forward to talking to & hangin' with the optimistic guys...and gals....perhaps I will find some of the wisdom I have been praying for. Best regards to all. May you make the best choices for you and your family.

[dvmcmrhp52]

Originally posted by SonnyRyder
Can anyone name a business where there is not increasing competition? Is that not a strength of a capitalistic society and why we all have the opportunity to start and own a business in these great United States? Would we be able to enjoy all the inexpensive luxuries we take for granted every day if there were no competition and drive for improvement, specialization, innovation, etc.?
There are so many options to take a business in a particular direction. You can quit, you can not change and watch those that do adapt to the market leave you behind, you can diversify, become the "one-stop shop", or just be the best at one small niche that allows you to demand a premium. There are more people born every day, more houses going up every day, more open fields, more forests, more swamps being developed into opportunities....lawns to maintain, homes & businesses to be built, utilities to be installed, refridgerators to be filled, etc., etc. I find it interesting the difference in optimism vs. pessimism here....and also that this thread has been going on for over 3 years. If I stick around here...I look forward to talking to & hangin' with the optimistic guys...and gals....perhaps I will find some of the wisdom I have been praying for. Best regards to all. May you make the best choices for you and your family.







Well said.

[squig_2000]

I'm amew member to this site, but I don't own a lawn care business. I 've quite a few things from this site to help make my lawn better, as I'm sure there are other members here doing the same. Does that offend anyone that I want to take care of my own lawn and not pay someone else to do what I enjoy doing myself? So make this a pay site and the others like myself can't learn from your experience.

[dvmcmrhp52]

Squig,
enjoy the ride and learn.
The day this site becomes a pay site will be the day after Sean has sold it to someone else if he is smart.

[Lawnalternatives]

This is a ME TOO type of commodity business. Anyone that can pull a string and start a engine can do this. Maybe not very well or business like, but for a short while, they will get new accounts. After they figure out what it takes to stay afloat, then laziness kicks in and they will fade away. I could care less about the newbies, because most are already done before they started!

[prizeprop]

its hard to land residential accounts in my area that are 10,000 -15,000 sq ft for more than thirty dollars a cut. guys are bidding on them for $23.00,I got that 15 years ago. and two to three years ago I was landing these jobs for close to $35.00. Thank God I have a stable customer base,however it's been impossible to expand. If it wasnt for the add on work and installs I would have cashed it in a while ago or gone solo.

eg.100 lawns @$25=$2,500
100 lawns @$35=$3,500 $4,000 a month difference,that would pay a morgage on two nice houses.

[lanhamlawnservice]

man,its been a tough season for us in ky.slowdown some but still at it,hope we make ends meet for winter.

[lanhamlawnservice]

This is a ME TOO type of commodity business. Anyone that can pull a string and start a engine can do this. Maybe not very well or business like, but for a short while, they will get new accounts. After they figure out what it takes to stay afloat, then laziness kicks in and they will fade away. I could care less about the newbies, because most are already done before they started!yea,i wish those who say all it is,is mowing would come to work with me for a month,they may stay at the factory job.our job doesn't end at any certain time.

[Mr.Mow-It-All]

Just wondering if you noticed that this thread started 5 years ago and its last post was 2.5 years ago. Just lettin you know.

good luck.

[MOW PRO LAWN SERVICE]

I know aint it cool keeping the board alive and going.

[zmowing]

don't give up.Get a new plan.you can make great money in this bussiness.

[Grits]

It's kind of funny. People b!tching about lowballers and how they are ruining the industry. But 5 years later there is still PLENTY of people making an excellent living in this field. But even today, you still have people b!tching about lowballers and how they are going to ruin the industry. It just won't happen.

[dlm17]

its real simple guys you must be more valuble to your customers than the next guy, so all these guys that complain about your pita customersthat ask you to do things for them that may not be in your "contracts" or you have to get paid for every minute you spend anywhere you will lose the personal touch that keeps the customers wanting you, otherwise it comes down to just money

[MarkintheGarden]

Just wondering if you noticed that this thread started 5 years ago and its last post was 2.5 years ago. Just lettin you know.

good luck.

I did not notice how old this thread was. A five year old conversation with a two and a half year pause.

[Liquidfast]

In my honest opinion, there is only a small percentage of companies out there that are in our particular industry that are "rich". I use the word rich because there isn't a single WEALTHY person from this industry. It simply cannot be done.

Regardless of competition this "business" of ours will provide a decent living. Many people out there do see a new truck and equipment and equate that with success. Many are leasing (on the surface) a reliable truck to provide the means to an end.

Joe blow down the street sees this and ASSumes he too can cut lawns and be successful which is one of the reasons so many start ups happen. This year, I have seen atleast 3 new start ups fail. It happens. Competition is NOT the enemy....YOU are. If you grow too fast, you may fail. If you grow too slow, you may fail also. There is (like most businesses) a fine line between success and failure.

When people see us performing out duties, they imagine making their own schedule and calling the shots. In reality, it is certainly (aside from a hotdog vendor) one of the easiest jobs to perform. When I started out, I put LANDSCAPING on my truck. I had more requests for REAL jobs than I did for lawn care....I didnt know the difference. I also screwed up more lawns than I can remember. I am lucky I stayed afloat.

I was able to keep at this business due to having the finances to rough out the hard times (and there were plenty). I can't imagine having to start out with nothing and rely on the "what-ifs" to provide for myself....I would have failed for sure in the first year or two.

Today, I see more "landscapers" than I do convienience stores. It seems everyone with a 4x4 or heck a saturn ion with a trailer hitch is a LCO. With all that said, I still make a pretty good living. I do lawn care FULL TIME yet I do not rely on lawn care as my primary source of income (dont know how anyone does). It's all the little extras that bring the dough.

I cleared $11000 my first year and I'll clear 10 times that this year. It's not much money, I will never be a millionaire and I wouldn't want to become one either cuz I would probably lose the passion for this "profession" I am so passionate about. <---Try saying that last line 10 times.

Everyone here says "Stick with it, you can do it if you believe". I say, stick with it until you start losing money and/or no longer making money and get off the train before it derails. IMHO, there is NO money in lawn care, only a decent living.

[tomo]

: hello. OCS all i say is i agree with u . Low balling is a poor business tactic and typically comes from people who would stuggle to do much of any thing !!!!!!!! Particularly when this is not a high margin industry .IF it were legal all lowballers should be :gunsfirin :gunsfirin :gunsfirin :gunsfirin :gunsfirin . Yes it does happen to others including my self .
n CHECK THIS STORY meet up with someone from another business [established 12 years ] he offers 40 % of his gear mowers, attachnents etc 4 rock bottom price well maybe even below that ! Story continues 3 of his larger jobs up and vanished .WELL GUESS WHAT MEET A PERSON TODAY AND HE ASKS HOW MUCH MULCH AND WE ARE TALKING AND THE PENNY SUDDENLY DROPPED THIS IS THE F........G low baller and to boot very little gear in truck agh agh .To top it all of this guy bid against me on another job and could not finish it as equipment could not do it oh so sad :cry: :cry: and did not want to do 3-4 hrs brush cutting to thick and needed slasher :cry: :cry: :hammerhead: Iwish there were a dark alley this guy is so stupid :gunsfirin :gunsfirin :gunsfirin :gunsfirin :gunsfirin :gunsfirin :gunsfirin thanks tomo

[dlm17]

In my honest opinion, there is only a small percentage of companies out there that are in our particular industry that are "rich". I use the word rich because there isn't a single WEALTHY person from this industry. It simply cannot be done.

Regardless of competition this "business" of ours will provide a decent living. Many people out there do see a new truck and equipment and equate that with success. Many are leasing (on the surface) a reliable truck to provide the means to an end.

Joe blow down the street sees this and ASSumes he too can cut lawns and be successful which is one of the reasons so many start ups happen. This year, I have seen atleast 3 new start ups fail. It happens. Competition is NOT the enemy....YOU are. If you grow too fast, you may fail. If you grow too slow, you may fail also. There is (like most businesses) a fine line between success and failure.

When people see us performing out duties, they imagine making their own schedule and calling the shots. In reality, it is certainly (aside from a hotdog vendor) one of the easiest jobs to perform. When I started out, I put LANDSCAPING on my truck. I had more requests for REAL jobs than I did for lawn care....I didnt know the difference. I also screwed up more lawns than I can remember. I am lucky I stayed afloat.

I was able to keep at this business due to having the finances to rough out the hard times (and there were plenty). I can't imagine having to start out with nothing and rely on the "what-ifs" to provide for myself....I would have failed for sure in the first year or two.

Today, I see more "landscapers" than I do convienience stores. It seems everyone with a 4x4 or heck a saturn ion with a trailer hitch is a LCO. With all that said, I still make a pretty good living. I do lawn care FULL TIME yet I do not rely on lawn care as my primary source of income (dont know how anyone does). It's all the little extras that bring the dough.

I cleared $11000 my first year and I'll clear 10 times that this year. It's not much money, I will never be a millionaire and I wouldn't want to become one either cuz I would probably lose the passion for this "profession" I am so passionate about. <---Try saying that last line 10 times.

Everyone here says "Stick with it, you can do it if you believe". I say, stick with it until you start losing money and/or no longer making money and get off the train before it derails. IMHO, there is NO money in lawn care, only a decent living.
what do you consider rich, would living in a million dollar plus home, vacationing at will, nice cars , etc. one of my customers owns a large lco and that describes him, on our end it may not happen too often but it is possible it just depends on how big do you want to get and what you are willing to do to get there.

[Liquidfast]

what do you consider rich, would living in a million dollar plus home, vacationing at will, nice cars , etc. one of my customers owns a large lco and that describes him, on our end it may not happen too often but it is possible it just depends on how big do you want to get and what you are willing to do to get there.


I was just trying to help out the OP from 5 years ago. I don't actually believe you can't become rich......I was just helpin a brotha out.

[nobagger]

There are A LOT of replies but I have to put my .02 cents in as well. And this is just what I do, good bad or indifferent! When I'm asked to bid on something I already have in hand the proper documents to prove we are a legit company. And yes sometimes I bash other companies but in a professional way. But I clearly see his point! I am really reserved when it comes to questions like "how much for this", "what should I do about this" and things as such. I could care less about xyz company in North Carolina BUT... I have respect for those professional companies so I try not to step on any toes by telling some joe blow company down there how to do something, and I hope this practice is returned. This business will NEVER EVER change until there is stricter enforcement on owning a lawn care business period. Its one of the lowest costing business (for start up costs) to operate. We all know a quality commercial mower runs thousands but just to get started with a 21" and the usual crap thats already in half of the garages across America, the cost is minimal. Its not only how much the customer pays (in some cases it is) but its also the quality professional services you provide. I have plenty of customer's that would be paying less but we go above and beyond with little stupid stuff to please our customer's each week. Its tough loosing a big accounts but there are more out there beleive me, I guess thats the business world's way of keeping us on our toes. This condo association we just picked up was getting sub-par services and we bid it, sold ourselves and now we have it!:clapping:

[Dashunde]

SO...

6 years later... the story is still the same, and here we all are!

[Daner]

I was so shocked to see Bobbyjedd...now I know why... LOL ... that's so funny. But heck doing this kinda work for 34 yrs now...Let us not all forget how much we love our work. We are professionals working together...there are always going to be new guys on the block,no mater what you do.
I just go with the flow...and can't wait to get up In the morning to do It all over again.

[dlm17]

There are A LOT of replies but I have to put my .02 cents in as well. And this is just what I do, good bad or indifferent! When I'm asked to bid on something I already have in hand the proper documents to prove we are a legit company. And yes sometimes I bash other companies but in a professional way. But I clearly see his point! I am really reserved when it comes to questions like "how much for this", "what should I do about this" and things as such. I could care less about xyz company in North Carolina BUT... I have respect for those professional companies so I try not to step on any toes by telling some joe blow company down there how to do something, and I hope this practice is returned. This business will NEVER EVER change until there is stricter enforcement on owning a lawn care business period. Its one of the lowest costing business (for start up costs) to operate. We all know a quality commercial mower runs thousands but just to get started with a 21" and the usual crap thats already in half of the garages across America, the cost is minimal. Its not only how much the customer pays (in some cases it is) but its also the quality professional services you provide. I have plenty of customer's that would be paying less but we go above and beyond with little stupid stuff to please our customer's each week. Its tough loosing a big accounts but there are more out there beleive me, I guess thats the business world's way of keeping us on our toes. This condo association we just picked up was getting sub-par services and we bid it, sold ourselves and now we have it!:clapping:
nobagger, you hit the nail on the head, you bid it and YOU SOLD YOURSELVES, everything we do is selling ourselves and if we believe in the product that should be easy, i just dont understand all the negatives you read here, at least where i am if you want the work its there its up to you what you make of it

[Waterscapes By Design]

Or......OR......all of you guys who have been in the business for awhile and made connections throughout that time could maybe start thinking about organizing. Even if it is just locally or in your state at first...

Florida (where I live) like a lot of states obviously dont require any type of certifications to be a landscaper/lawn guy. Anyone with a mower and a itchin to give it a try can go out and start one. As a result we are all constantly in bidding wars with one another and having to cut throats of people we should be teamed up with.

Go to your county/state green industry Rep and ask for something to be done. Get old ladies to give sob stories to the Reps just like they give you about how "so and so came out and had me pay and didnt come back".
If we could make it to where someone at least had to go get a lawn service tech certificate to operate that would cut down so many people alone.....

[e-RoK]

Gotta roll with the punches. The landscaping/lawn care biz is just like every other business. Think of the guy who used to sell oil for lanterns when electricity was invented. Innovate!

[JS Landscaping]

Every year I see quite a few start ups.....A few years ago I was one myself. It doesnt bother me at all to see new competition as long as they are properly licenced and insured. Although there are a lot that are not in my area, and they seem to pop up like broad leaf weeds in a lawn that never received pre-m, you have to learn to market quality. Raise the bar in your area, offer better service then anyone else can provide, attention to detail. Not all clients are persuaded by price...although this is a big factor in the commercial end of the spectrum. Also be agressive with advertizing, and become allies with other larger companies, or even smaller ones... I have recieved quite a bit of work from referals from other companys who just dont have the time to do the job, and I also pass along the cheap non profitable accounts to guys who i know will do a good job and want them and maybe can make a profit from them. If you see the unlicenced, non-tax paying companys, report them, a quick call and you can shut them down. Competition is present in any industry, it seperates the successful from the non successful....I believe there is a statistic that 75% of businesses fail in the first 3 years. Not too sure if its true but I have heard it a few times. If you have confidence in your company you can go as far as your dreams may take you. Buy out other companys and expand your presence. Look how the Brickman group was started, and where they have gone. Getting a company to that size may not be everyones goal but I believe they are a good representatoin of what a dream can do. Im sure when Brickman first started he was just like anyone of us. The possiblities are endless when you are your own boss. Sure there will be many bumps along the way but perseverence is they key to success. Wipe out your competition with quality not price....people will learn over time what matters the most, quality. You dont want to be working for the people that are just persuaded as price anyway. Keep your chin up and focus all your efforts to having an even better year, stay optomistic and keep pushing for perfection....and your competition will be left with the leftovers that you dont want. Confidence is everything!:usflag:

[patterson]

I quite simply do better work than most of the people in my area. I'm reliable, fully licensed for turf care, mow correctly and efficiently. Nobody gripes about my prices and I don't lose many customers to other companies.
When i do, they usually come back within a season and my price goes up. They're happy to pay it. Compete with quality not price.

[Sir mowsalot]

Every year I see quite a few start ups.....A few years ago I was one myself. It doesnt bother me at all to see new competition as long as they are properly licenced and insured. Although there are a lot that are not in my area, and they seem to pop up like broad leaf weeds in a lawn that never received pre-m, you have to learn to market quality. Raise the bar in your area, offer better service then anyone else can provide, attention to detail. Not all clients are persuaded by price...although this is a big factor in the commercial end of the spectrum. Also be agressive with advertizing, and become allies with other larger companies, or even smaller ones... I have recieved quite a bit of work from referals from other companys who just dont have the time to do the job, and I also pass along the cheap non profitable accounts to guys who i know will do a good job and want them and maybe can make a profit from them. If you see the unlicenced, non-tax paying companys, report them, a quick call and you can shut them down. Competition is present in any industry, it seperates the successful from the non successful....I believe there is a statistic that 75% of businesses fail in the first 3 years. Not too sure if its true but I have heard it a few times. If you have confidence in your company you can go as far as your dreams may take you. Buy out other companys and expand your presence. Look how the Brickman group was started, and where they have gone. Getting a company to that size may not be everyones goal but I believe they are a good representatoin of what a dream can do. Im sure when Brickman first started he was just like anyone of us. The possiblities are endless when you are your own boss. Sure there will be many bumps along the way but perseverence is they key to success. Wipe out your competition with quality not price....people will learn over time what matters the most, quality. You dont want to be working for the people that are just persuaded as price anyway. Keep your chin up and focus all your efforts to having an even better year, stay optomistic and keep pushing for perfection....and your competition will be left with the leftovers that you dont want. Confidence is everything!:usflag:

This is a very good point about being allies with other companies. On Tuesday, i just recieved 13 new mowing accounts from another company. We have kept tight thru the past several years, and since i hate shrub trimming i always give them my trimming jobs, and tanbarking, i hate doing it. They hate the mowing, so i end up with alot of theirs, or else they refer me as i do to them. so it is a perfect marriage, but it must be built on trust otherwise you could have someone cut your throat. One other hint: always wave to the competition, you never know when they might need your services.

[supercuts]

it seems like there are 100's of landscapers in my area but i just dont see the crazy competition like many talk about. when i advertize, i cannot keep up with the calls, let alone keep up with estimates. maybe im in a really good area or doing very good reliable work that keep my costumers happy. many of mine are 10+ year customers. the storys about losing expensive bids, it happens, thats part of the business. thats why we dont keep all of our eggs in the same basket.

[TNT Lawncare]

Just wait until its 100 degrees for a week straight and see how many part timers keep up with us who do this for a living.

[Vikings]

I didn't come to this site until I already started a lawn care business last year. I was googling. So I think the thread starters assertion that people read here, then get ideas and start a business are bs.

If you read a lot here, at least for me, what I learned was raise prices.

[Midwest Lawn Services]

I am new to this site but have 10 years experience. DON'T LET NEW GUYS RUIN YOUR FUTURE! New guys have many down falls that us old guys have mastered; poor managerial skills, little knowledge, generally less quality equipment and performance, poor relation skills, poor finances, ect. New guys only have one up on us, they can under bid for the first year and maybe keep up with demand, but sooner or later, their expenditures will out weigh their profits, and THEY WILL GO BROKE. I was just under bid on a local 3 park bid - total of 19 acres, by a new guy who cut the other 4 bids by half, and has new equipment - approximately $24,000 worth of it! He will not make money, and will go broke, just like the majority that think of this as a get rich quick program. There is no substitute for knowledge, experience, and client relations skills. Remember, competition is good, it gives your clients a chance to see why you are the best, and why they need knowledge and experience on their side, not fighting them. Hang in there all you veterans, we run the market and will come out on top, because we are the Best!

[Swampy]

Yeah we got that problem here for every veteran that gets out of business there is two to take its place. This maybe bad business practice but we basicly "retool" the company in another direction every 7 to 10 years. Last time we didn't resign any private residental unless contracted with commerical accounts, got rid of all the walkbehinds and smaller mowers (smallest deck we have is a 60in ZTR or push mowers). We saved alot of time and got more money in the rat race for commerical and HOA.

Do we bid kind of low? Yes we do, but we use mowing to keep us a float when the economy takes a crap. Our butter comes from doing landscape jobs that we usually lock into the contract.

[martinfan06]

I am new to this site but have 10 years experience. DON'T LET NEW GUYS RUIN YOUR FUTURE! New guys have many down falls that us old guys have mastered; poor managerial skills, little knowledge, generally less quality equipment and performance, poor relation skills, poor finances, ect. New guys only have one up on us, they can under bid for the first year and maybe keep up with demand, but sooner or later, their expenditures will out weigh their profits, and THEY WILL GO BROKE. I was just under bid on a local 3 park bid - total of 19 acres, by a new guy who cut the other 4 bids by half, and has new equipment - approximately $24,000 worth of it! He will not make money, and will go broke, just like the majority that think of this as a get rich quick program. There is no substitute for knowledge, experience, and client relations skills. Remember, competition is good, it gives your clients a chance to see why you are the best, and why they need knowledge and experience on their side, not fighting them. Hang in there all you veterans, we run the market and will come out on top, because we are the Best!

PS this thread is 6 years old theres no telling what this guys doing now.
:laugh: :laugh: welcome to LS all good fun.

[hess]

Just seen in my local papper someone is lawn mowing for $15.00 :dizzy: small and $30.00 for big yards. New guy never heard of him!!!!!!!:cry: :cry:

[David C.]

This is my first year in lawn maintanence----central Alabama---Pell City, Talladega, Childersburg area

I bought a cheap ad in the local paper and another "Free" ad in the local "Traders Helper"

Phones been ringin' off the hook

but here's the "Skinny" on what I see----I've completed two small jobs this past week---the first was a widow lady---she calls up and says she wants some shrubs "cleaned up"---so I go for a "Look/See"

Honeysuckle and "Privey" hedge had taken over a few lawn shrubs---not much, though----and since I don't have any grass to mow just yet---grass is still dormant this time of year---I give her a price

Amazingly---she accepts the bid---and then she tells me

"The man that cuts my yard never wants to do what you're doing there--all he wants to do is mow!"

Later the same day---she asks me----can I prune her Azalias

The Azallias were a mess-----had taken over her patio

So I tell her I'll do it----"Good---I can't get my regular yard man to do it!"

She also wants me to repair a number of landscape bricks---I tell her---"Yes Ma'm!! I can do that!!"

It may not be grass mowin'---but its work---and the pay is the same whether I'm sittin' on my Zero turn or if I have a pair of Pruniers in my hand

Mowin' grass is the easy part----run on down to Sears and get your hands on one of those nice mowers----pay less than 3/4 the price I paid for my Snapper Zero----don't charge near as much----somethin' easy---I'll just wait around---keep doin' those jobs those lazy mowers don't want to do

I'm afraid that too many lazy mowers look at it as a way to earn some cheap "Chump change"----mow for half of what I can do it far

I feel for ya, buddy---but hang in there---don't quit----it sure beats flippin' burgers at Wendy's!!!

[nlminc]

But.........will she see those azeleas bloom this year? NO! You should not be pruning them at this time of year, you're taking off the buds.

[ACutAbovesiny]

No no no...dont prune now. If you cut them back now they wont flower.

[ManorD24]

If the customer is happy with your services they aren't going to be shopping around for prices. And the ones that are i dont think are worth having. They are usually the same ones that dont pay ontime and give you a hard time about every little thing plus all the headaches. Lots of competition here but i never really have had a problem.

[Scag48]

I think what some of you guys are missing about the new guys charging the cheap prices they do is that they need to get established somehow. They need to land a decent client base because word of mouth is the best form of advertisement. When guys start out, they have zero accounts. For the first few months, they don't have a full schedule yet, and bidding low helps fill the schedule. Would you rather have 5 lawns at $40 or 10 lawns at $20? The answer for the veterans running a full route is easy, but I guarantee the new guys will pick 10 lawns for $20 every single time. They're working for twice as many customers, which doubles their chances of getting word of mouth recommendations. This is basic business tactic. I'm doing the same thing right now. I was in the business for 6 years, sold out, now trying to get going again. I'm not going to be incredibly cheap, nor will I sacrifice my workmanship to save somebody a couple bucks. I'm not completely inexperienced in the field, but I will be slightly cheaper to gain some market status. You have to bleed for a little while to get started, that's business 101. When the phone starts ringing off the hook, you can start upping the prices. Successfully, you should be winning maybe 30-40% of the bids you give, roughly.

[David C.]

But.........will she see those azeleas bloom this year? NO! You should not be pruning them at this time of year, you're taking off the buds.


Relax!! Relax!!! I understand that!!

So here's what I tell the lady! I tell her---sure, I'll prune the Azelias---but you'll want to wait 'til after they loose their blooms----and I can't guarantee you'll have any blooms next year!

She says---yes, wait till the blooms fall off----and not having any blooms next year is the price she has to pay for having them pruned back

[lanhamlawnservice]

Yes I agree!thx Every year I see quite a few start ups.....A few years ago I was one myself. It doesnt bother me at all to see new competition as long as they are properly licenced and insured. Although there are a lot that are not in my area, and they seem to pop up like broad leaf weeds in a lawn that never received pre-m, you have to learn to market quality. Raise the bar in your area, offer better service then anyone else can provide, attention to detail. Not all clients are persuaded by price...although this is a big factor in the commercial end of the spectrum. Also be agressive with advertizing, and become allies with other larger companies, or even smaller ones... I have recieved quite a bit of work from referals from other companys who just dont have the time to do the job, and I also pass along the cheap non profitable accounts to guys who i know will do a good job and want them and maybe can make a profit from them. If you see the unlicenced, non-tax paying companys, report them, a quick call and you can shut them down. Competition is present in any industry, it seperates the successful from the non successful....I believe there is a statistic that 75% of businesses fail in the first 3 years. Not too sure if its true but I have heard it a few times. If you have confidence in your company you can go as far as your dreams may take you. Buy out other companys and expand your presence. Look how the Brickman group was started, and where they have gone. Getting a company to that size may not be everyones goal but I believe they are a good representatoin of what a dream can do. Im sure when Brickman first started he was just like anyone of us. The possiblities are endless when you are your own boss. Sure there will be many bumps along the way but perseverence is they key to success. Wipe out your competition with quality not price....people will learn over time what matters the most, quality. You dont want to be working for the people that are just persuaded as price anyway. Keep your chin up and focus all your efforts to having an even better year, stay optomistic and keep pushing for perfection....and your competition will be left with the leftovers that you dont want. Confidence is everything!:usflag: