Rain Wash Away Seed???

[OCTO13ER]

Hey guys!! Newbie here with a couple of questions before I plant my seed:

I've got new construction that needed 8 truckloads of fill to bring it to grade. It's really good farmland soil (even smells like manure) that we got graded two weekends ago. I also spread a load of sand (mason #1) over the entire area because the soil did contain some clay, I figured the sand would help loosen up any clay and keep it from compacting. Well, last weekend we rented the biggest rear tine tiller we could find and set about to tilling. We got it tilled up real fine (some parts are still golf ball size or smaller, just couldn't break 'em up any more) and raked it all smooth. I started spreading seed and about halfway through the first spreader full, it started dumping rain. My guess is the seed that got wet in the spreader may be ruined (what do you think?). Anyhow, it proceeded to rain pretty good over the weekend and again on Wednesday. What I noticed and became concerned of was that in one area of the yard the rain washed quite a bit of dirt out to the street, created some ruts (little rain gullys) and brought quite a few small rocks to the surface over the entire yard. Now my questions:

If I spread my seed, then the mulch/starter fertilizer (the kind that's made from recycled newspaper), then roll it by hand with a 200 lb. roller (normally pulled by a tractor, but I'm a big boy) will that keep my seed/soil from washing away in the next big rain? Or will I have to invest in straw/erosion control?
Also, should I bother picking up the thousands of tiny rocks that surfaced? My neighbor said don't bother because there are thousands more yet to come, but what happens to them if they're not removed? Will the grass/topdressing eventually overcome them?
Also, should I go ahead and make arrangements to rent a tiller for this weekend or will a good raking be sufficient? It still hasn't dried out all the way and all of the fine dirt/sand washed to the bottom leaving the clumps (golfballs) on top. I'm afraid that by tilling it while it's still moist I may just cause more clumps, but I've got to get this grass seed down. The weather just won't cooperate.

Just some info: <7000 sq. ft., Penncross seed ($friggin' expensive$), about a 25-30 degree grade on one side only.

TIA,

OCTO

[Guthrie&Co]

your going top pull a 200lb roller by hand across 7k sqft and on a grade? you going to kill your self

[OCTO13ER]

That wasn't the question that needed answered but I salute your attention to detail. I'm 6'-4" and weigh 245 lbs., I bench just under 500 lbs. and am 31 years old. I run 2 miles every morning and work out every other day. I also work in a steel fabrication shop and move 150 lb. plate almost all day, everyday. I find the 200 lb. roller to be an easy load.
If I sat on the couch all week, I'd hire you to plant my lawn, but I'm a hands on and slightly restless individual. I work hard because I enjoy the satisfaction of a job well done.
I'm also having a frustrating day so I apologize for seeming irritable.
Does anyone have any good insight to offer?

[Guthrie&Co]

here is what i would do. i would bring in my topsoil and spread around the yard. then i would apply my seed/fert/lime/. then roll it. then put erosion matting down.

i would bother with tilling again. just a rake it again and roll the heck out of it scince the yard was tilled heavy.

[sheshovel]

Sand does not help clay unless it is used in huge massive amounts.
Clay+Sand=cement
Let dry out a bit then,rake it out well(the clumps as much as possible) then re-seed after filling the erroded areas in,roll and cover w/topper or straw or errosion matting like suggested above

[Guthrie&Co]

I forgot to add that if you want to get rid of compaction in clay soil add gypsum and incoperate organics in with the soil you have.

[OCTO13ER]

Thanks for the input. It's not heavy clay, there's a minimal amount. It's mostly organic/soil with some clay and now sand mixed. I was poking around in it last night after work and it's dried out pretty well (in spight of the gully washer on Wednesday) and is still pretty loose, too. :)

I wonder if the rain runoff was because it was still so loose from tilling?

Anyway, thanks again for the response. I won't bother tilling again, maybe I'll just rake up the bigger clumps (and rocks) and put them where the flower beds will be going in the future. I've still got enough soil in some areas to fill in any low spots left by the clumps and runoff. Plus I can shovel the dirt from the sidewalk and curb and reuse it!! :p Sounds like I had better go ahead and invest in some erosion matting as well. I didn't think the slope was enough to need it and was hoping the fertilizer/mulch would magically keep it from running off in the rain. Doesn't sound like it though. But this time of year a one time application of seed and matting should be far cheaper than reseeding, reseeding, reseeding... If I'm going to put down more seed I'd rather it be to overseed the lawn and not the storm drains!

[muddstopper]

I forgot to add that if you want to get rid of compaction in clay soil add gypsum and incoperate organics in with the soil you have.

You dont use gypsum in clay soil unless the ph is neutral and your calcium levels are low. In NC, the state you say you are from, neutral ph and high calcium levels are unlikely unless the area has been properly admended, your soil should benefit more from dolomitic lime than gypsum.

[Guthrie&Co]

lime and gypsum are apples and oranges. care to fill me in as to why you shouldnt use gypsum unless the ph is neutral? lime doesnt do anything for compaction, it corrects an acidic soil.

[OCTO13ER]

Who cares??? Go argue on your own thread.

I didn't add any of the above as I didn't need it. I did rent a tractor pulled pullverizer and re-pullved the entire lawn. It broke up the remaing chunks and allowed me to fill in the eroded areas. I seeded, mulched/fertilized, and rolled the heck out of it (used the tractor since it was there, it was kind of fun). I did not use erosion matting as I still believe I do not need it, and after rolling the soil it has not gone anywhere. It was simply that it was still loose from the tilling. Now the temps have dropped below 60 daily and I'm wondering if I'll see any germination in the next couple of days. If not, it'll come up next spring and we'll get back after it next fall for overseeding.

By the way, I've heard Nitron A-35 is really good for loosening up hard soil if applied after aeration.

[Guthrie&Co]

The intention was not to argue. i was simply asking.

[Guthrie&Co]

Who cares??? Go argue on your own thread.

I didn't add any of the above as I didn't need it. I did rent a tractor pulled pullverizer and re-pullved the entire lawn. It broke up the remaing chunks and allowed me to fill in the eroded areas. I seeded, mulched/fertilized, and rolled the heck out of it (used the tractor since it was there, it was kind of fun). I did not use erosion matting as I still believe I do not need it, and after rolling the soil it has not gone anywhere. It was simply that it was still loose from the tilling. Now the temps have dropped below 60 daily and I'm wondering if I'll see any germination in the next couple of days. If not, it'll come up next spring and we'll get back after it next fall for overseeding.

By the way, I've heard Nitron A-35 is really good for loosening up hard soil if applied after aeration.
you know what..on second thought blow it out of your ass. you ask for help and you got it. we made our recomendatyions and you didnt take much of it. you told us one time u thought u needed the matting and now u claim that you didnt need it all along, then we get the " i am the incredible hulk and rolled the yard with a 200lb roller by hand, AS i stated before i was just asking the man a question and i could give a frogs fat ass who's thread u think i am aruging on.

[OCTO13ER]

Take it how you want, but when offering help at least know what you're talking about. I didn't take your suggestion because it was a load of crap!! You're 23 years old and been in business since you were 14 and still can't get it right? I laid out specific details which you chose to ignore and were only concerned with how heavy a roller was. You call that help? When given advise by someone wiser you ignore it and state your own belief as fact but then claim you're not argumentative. Go cry to momma boy, I've left the forum.:cry:

[Guthrie&Co]

see ya bye! so i guess a degree in horticulture isnt good enough then huh? your so full of ****. i told you exactly how to do it. and if your so damn smart then why the hell are you asking professionals? scince this is the homeowner section. moron

[muddstopper]

I dont know whether to responde to the way to mature responses that have already been posted or to just comment on the lime and gypsum questions.
Nah, I will just let the horticulture decreed person and the incredible hulk fight it out. I dont believe either.

[muddstopper]

A little info about gypsum.

Linda Chalker-Scott, Ph.D., Extension Horticulturist and Associate Professor,
Puyallup Research and Extension Center, Washington State University
The Myth of Gypsum Magic
“Adding gypsum to your yard or garden will improve soil tilth and plant health”
The Myth
Upon continued prodding from one of my university extension colleagues, I recently watched several
episodes of a well-known gardening program on television. My kids joined me, alerted by my animated
responses to the host’s non-stop torrent of advice. Among many amazing discoveries I learned that by
adding gypsum to my yard or garden I would improve my problem soils by changing the particle size and
loosening compaction. Further searching on the web revealed that gypsum would also improve drainage,
decrease acidity, and eliminate soil salts. Previously, I had heard of gypsum for use in soil reclamation
projects, but not for a typical urban landscape. Since gypsum is simply calcium sulfate, could this
chemical truly transform soil structure and serve as a fertilizer for yards and gardens?

The Reality
This myth falls into the category of agricultural practices misapplied to ornamental landscapes.
Gypsum effectively changes the structure and fertility of heavy clay soils, especially those that are heavily
weathered or subject to intensive crop production. Gypsum also improves sodic (saline) soils by
removing sodium from the soil and replacing it with calcium. Therefore, one can see improvement in
clay soil structure and fertility, and desalinization of sodium-rich soils, by using gypsum.
What other effects will gypsum have on soil and plant health? There are a number of scientific studies
on gypsum usage both in the literature and on websites. Briefly, researchers have found:
• Gypsum does not usually change soil acidity, though occasional reports of both increasing and
decreasing pH exist;
• Gypsum can increase leaching of aluminum, which can detoxify soils but also contaminates
nearby watersheds;
• Gypsum can increase leaching of iron and manganese, leading to deficiencies of these nutrients;
• Gypsum applied to acid soils can induce magnesium deficiency in plants on site;
• Gypsum applied to sandy soils can depress phosphorus, copper and zinc transport;
• Gypsum can have negative effects on mycorrhizal inoculation of roots, which may account for
several reports of negative effects of gypsum on tree seedling establishment and survival;
• Gypsum is variable in its effects on mature trees;
• Gypsum will not improve fertility of acid or sandy soils;
• Gypsum will not improve water holding capacity of sandy soils; and
• Gypsum’s effects are short-lived (often a matter of months)
With the exception of arid and coastal regions (where soil salts are high) and the southeastern United
States (where heavy clay soils are common), gypsum amendment is just not necessary in non-agricultural
areas. Urban soils are generally amalgamations of subsoils, native and non-native topsoils, and – in home
landscapes – high levels of organic and non-organic chemical additives. They are also heavily compacted
and layered (and gypsum does not work well on layered soils). In such landscapes, it is pointless to add
yet more chemicals in the form of gypsum unless you need to increase soil calcium levels. This nutrient
deficiency can be quickly identified by any soil testing laboratory for less than a bag of gypsum costs. (If
you need to improve sulfur nutrition, it’s wiser to use ammonium sulfate). To reduce compaction and
improve aeration in nearly any landscape, application of an organic mulch is more economically and
environmentally sustainable.

The Bottom Line
• Gypsum can improve heavy clay soil structure and remove sodium from saline soils
• Gypsum has no effect on soil fertility, structure, or pH of any other soil type
• Most urban soils are not improved by additional gypsum
• Before adding gypsum or any chemical to a landscape, have soil analysis performed to identify
mineral deficiencies, toxicities, and soil character
• Adding gypsum to sandy or non-sodic soils is a waste of money, natural resources, and can have
negative impacts on plant, soil, and ecosystem health
*You can contact Dr. Chalker-Scott at lindacs@wsu.edu.