MP Rotator Project

[PurpHaze]

Just finished a two zone spray pop-up to MP Rotator renovation. Worked out great since this area is where a contractor had just trenched through for supplying electrical to a new portable building and broke the lines in several areas. Pictures are attached and if you're wondering about the over-wetness it's because of having to systematically blow out sprinklers/lines because of all the debris caused by the breaks. Seems like they are working well and we've now been able to double up the two zones into one. I'll now have to see if we get sticking or other problems. Thanks to all for your input. Pictures attached.

[Critical Care]

Heh heh, I was about to go with some MP Rotators on a new install project but chickened out simply because I haven't used them enough. I was sooooo close, but "Nah." People seem to like them, so far, so maybe one of these days...

[PurpHaze]

Heh heh, I was about to go with some MP Rotators on a new install project but chickened out simply because I haven't used them enough. I was sooooo close, but "Nah." People seem to like them, so far, so maybe one of these days...

Trust me... if problems develop I'll post that info too. Besides you guys here I also talked with three guys that have had them installed for better than a year and they're quite happy with them. Time will tell because school sites are a whole different animal than someone's residence.

[Az Gardener]

I have had a system in for two years next month 0-problems on a park setting for a large family 10 kids 15 grand kids. Golf, football, quads, and a parking lot for a christmas charity event you name it and it happens on this field. Heads are all on swing joints and I repeat 0-problems. I wish Walla Walla were hiring sales reps.

[Dirty Water]

Doesn't Nelson make the MProtators for Walla Walla?

[PurpHaze]

I wish Walla Walla were hiring sales reps.

Your confidence in the product is helpful.

I know the exclusive distributor around here is Ewing.

[PurpHaze]

Doesn't Nelson make the MProtators for Walla Walla?

I'm not sure exactly what the connection is. Don't know if it's that way or Walla Walla Sprinklers makes them for Nelson or there's a subsidiary connection, etc.

[PurpHaze]

Forgot to mention that these two zones combined originally had 32 spray pop-ups that were always getting broken. We reduced it to 14 MP-Rs which I'm hoping will reduce the overall maintenance on them.

[bicmudpuppy]

Doesn't Nelson make the MProtators for Walla Walla?
It was my understanding from others here that we have two seperate entities, both with "Nelson" in their name. The Walla-Walla company has been an ag irrigation producer with a good reputation for a long time. The other "Nelson".......well, we all know them REAL good, don't we!

[PurpHaze]

It was my understanding from others here that we have two seperate entities, both with "Nelson" in their name. The Walla-Walla company has been an ag irrigation producer with a good reputation for a long time. The other "Nelson".......well, we all know them REAL good, don't we!

From their web site: "Walla Walla Sprinkler Company, a turf & landscape irrigation company, is a subsidiary of Nelson Irrigation Corporation..."

[Green Sweep]

MP rotator's just saved our rear ends. We just installed a commercial system for a strip mall. The pressure in this area is typically 90 - 100 psi. We designed the system with that in mind. The plumbing connection was not made available until we had 90% of the system installed. After we had our P.O.C. in, I took a pressure reading of 62 psi... ouch. I wanted to avoid installing a booster pump. I was able to effectively nozzle down on all of the zones except for 2. We installed 21 Rain Bird 1812's above a Versa - Lok wall to water a bed up hill (2 zones 10 & 11 heads.) The landscaper planted about 15 ' uphill in the bed. We assummed that we would be able to have 15' nozzles to hit the plants. Guess again... not with 62 psi. I heard about the Mp's & decided to give them a try. Wow, complete saturation of everything on this hill. What a lifesaver.

[Broker]

pics look good

[PurpHaze]

MP rotator's just saved our rear ends. We just installed a commercial system for a strip mall. The pressure in this area is typically 90 - 100 psi. We designed the system with that in mind. The plumbing connection was not made available until we had 90% of the system installed. After we had our P.O.C. in, I took a pressure reading of 62 psi... ouch. I wanted to avoid installing a booster pump. I was able to effectively nozzle down on all of the zones except for 2. We installed 21 Rain Bird 1812's above a Versa - Lok wall to water a bed up hill (2 zones 10 & 11 heads.) The landscaper planted about 15 ' uphill in the bed. We assummed that we would be able to have 15' nozzles to hit the plants. Guess again... not with 62 psi. I heard about the Mp's & decided to give them a try. Wow, complete saturation of everything on this hill. What a lifesaver.

It's my understanding that the original stream rotors were specifically designed for hilly commercial areas and freeway side hills. By putting the water down in a specific manner of the streams it allowed for less runoff.

In my specialty we are limited as to the times we can water. We never start a program prior to darkness due to the potential for vandalism. The programs have to be off early enough in the morning so there is some drying prior to staff and students arriving on a site. Since the GPM of these sprinklers is much lower (which would necessitate longer zone run times) I foresee where we can double and triple up like zones to activate together saving overall program run length.

[Rainman7]

Does anyone know what happened to Rainbird's version of the MP Rotary? They moved a little faster and watered ALOT beter close to the head than the MP's.

[MOlawnman]

MP-Rotators rule. Install almost all my residential systems with them. We are currently installing a system for a lare apartment complex, 2" mains with 34 MP-3000's on one zone alone. Zero problems to date. I rarely use spray nozzles anymore except for strip applications.

[PurpHaze]

MP-Rotators rule. Install almost all my residential systems with them. We are currently installing a system for a lare apartment complex, 2" mains with 34 MP-3000's on one zone alone. Zero problems to date. I rarely use spray nozzles anymore except for strip applications.

I liked the ones we put in so well that I spent this past weekend renovating my back yard system. I originally had PGPs (rectangle perfection) in it and then switched to PGJs when a few things (patio, spa, shed, etc.) were added. However, I never added any heads and (just like "Doctor heal thyself") ended up with a couple of thin areas but never got concerned about it. Now I have the MP Rotators and spacing/radius are back to perfection. I came home the other afternoon and the wife had manually started the back yard via the controller because she "just wanted to watch them... they're so soothing." :p

BTW... how do the 1000s work? Are they prone to clogging due to smaller nozzle ports or do they work well?

[JimLewis]

Does anyone know what happened to Rainbird's version of the MP Rotary? They moved a little faster and watered ALOT beter close to the head than the MP's.

Yah, I've been talking with our local Rainbird Rep about those. The reason they pulled them is because of problems with winterization. Guys were blowing out systems with compressed air and the nozzles would just explode and wizz off in the air under those conditions. So they pulled them and are in the process of re-engineering them.

I am surprised to hear you liked them though. My foreman thought they sucked. I happen to agree. They weren't adjustable at all - like the MP Rotators are. And they were just harder to work with in general.

We have pretty extensive use with the MPRs. We've installed over 20 systems using them so far. They're great. They've really engineered a product that is going to be very hard for the competition to emulate without stepping on their copyrights.

The best thing about the MPRs is how versatile they are. Sometimes we have a small back lawn that, in theory, could be all one zone. But because of it's shape, it wouldn't be possible with traditional heads and nozzles. For instaance, the back yard has a concrete patio in the middle of it. So it has two small square sections of turf on each side of the concrete patio and one larger rectangle section of turf in front of the patio, all the way to the fence. Traditionally, you'd want to use rotors on the larger area, and you'd have to use 4" pop-ups on the smaller square areas. So that's a minimum of 2 zones. But with the MPRs, that can go as low as 8' diameter all the way up to 40' or so, you have all the versatility in the world. We can often design systems now with just 3 zones that would have traditionally been 5 or 6 zone systems.

[PurpHaze]

But with the MPRs, that can go as low as 8' diameter all the way up to 40' or so, you have all the versatility in the world. We can often design systems now with just 3 zones that would have traditionally been 5 or 6 zone systems.

Jim,

Thanks for your insights. So what you are saying is that the precipitation rates between the 1000s/2000s/3000s match well enough that you can mix them in quite well? That's good news. The MP-R charts say this but I wanted to hear it from someone who has actually done it.

I'm still looking for comments as to the reliability of the 1000s busted down to 8' radius and how they hold up.

[JimLewis]

.....
I'm still looking for comments as to the reliability of the 1000s busted down to 8' radius and how they hold up.

We've probably used them more than anyone here. And so far, I haven't had to replace one yet. Of course, the MP1000s haven't been out as long as the rest. So we've only been installing those for a little over a year now. But again, haven't had any call backs or had to replace one yet.

[PurpHaze]

We've probably used them more than anyone here. And so far, I haven't had to replace one yet. Of course, the MP1000s haven't been out as long as the rest. So we've only been installing those for a little over a year now. But again, haven't had any call backs or had to replace one yet.

Thanks for the info.

[drmiller100]

we installed about 300 of the mp rotors this summer. We are liking them a LOT. so far only come backs have been adjustments, no failures.
The 1000's IMO seem to put out more water per square foot per minute then the 2000's. not all bad. just something to keep in mind.
We ended up using a LOT less 1000's then we thought we would.
3000's cover a LOT of ground.
it is pretty cool to throw a spray head into the middle of a gear drive zone to fix some dry spot another guy did, or changes to the landscaping.

[PurpHaze]

we installed about 300 of the mp rotors this summer. We are liking them a LOT. so far only come backs have been adjustments, no failures.
The 1000's IMO seem to put out more water per square foot per minute then the 2000's. not all bad. just something to keep in mind.
We ended up using a LOT less 1000's then we thought we would.
3000's cover a LOT of ground.
it is pretty cool to throw a spray head into the middle of a gear drive zone to fix some dry spot another guy did, or changes to the landscaping.

I've noticed also that the longest stream goes farther than anticipated. This will allow for bumping the head spacing out a little as long as coverage is still adequate.

I'd be somewhat hesitant about leaving that spray head in too long. The precipitation rates definitely don't match and you'll end up with a "mush spot" from overwatering if left there too long. :D

[drmiller100]

you should double check the precip rates. depending on nozzle size and angles, the mp's fit right in with a gear drive.
pretty weird i know.

traditional sprays for sure do NOT match, but the MP's throw a lot less water per square inch per hour then traditional sprays.

[MOlawnman]

I haven't used many of the 1000's, so I do not have reliability info either.

I am the only one in my area using the MP's. I am also finding that the zone count is much lower when I do entire systems with the mp. A typical residence here used to take 6-8 zones and is now taking 3-4.

One of my employees refers to the mp as "the cool one that shoots all those streams". Clients love them too.

The RainBird version in my opinion sucks too.

[drmiller100]

yeah, i've gotten a few jobs cuz we have the cool sprays.

yeah, bidding by zones sucks. two of my competitors bid by zones. more zones means a better system, right?

education of the customer takes a bit of time, but the best argument is "I can use those old crappy spray heads like my competitors if you want more zones for the same price. But I can't give the 3 year warrantee on the heads, and it will cost you more in water bills because the crappy nozzles don't spray as evenly. It is up to you Mrs. Customer."

[PurpHaze]

yeah, i've gotten a few jobs cuz we have the cool sprays.

yeah, bidding by zones sucks. two of my competitors bid by zones. more zones means a better system, right?

education of the customer takes a bit of time, but the best argument is "I can use those old crappy spray heads like my competitors if you want more zones for the same price. But I can't give the 3 year warrantee on the heads, and it will cost you more in water bills because the crappy nozzles don't spray as evenly. It is up to you Mrs. Customer."

Always seems that someone is trying to stretch the whole thing instead of installing what would work best for an area. It really peeves me when someone comes in with a "three-row" spray pop-up design instead of using another sprinkler that covers from side to side. In our specs we require that certain width areas have side to side coverage instead of sprays all over the place. Charge us what it's worth to make a profit but give us what we ask for; fewer sprinklers = fewer potential maintenance problems. :D

[Rainman7]

Yah, I've been talking with our local Rainbird Rep about those. The reason they pulled them is because of problems with winterization. Guys were blowing out systems with compressed air and the nozzles would just explode and wizz off in the air under those conditions. So they pulled them and are in the process of re-engineering them.

I am surprised to hear you liked them though. My foreman thought they sucked. I happen to agree. They weren't adjustable at all - like the MP Rotators are. And they were just harder to work with in general.

We have pretty extensive use with the MPRs. We've installed over 20 systems using them so far. They're great. They've really engineered a product that is going to be very hard for the competition to emulate without stepping on their copyrights.

The best thing about the MPRs is how versatile they are. Sometimes we have a small back lawn that, in theory, could be all one zone. But because of it's shape, it wouldn't be possible with traditional heads and nozzles. For instaance, the back yard has a concrete patio in the middle of it. So it has two small square sections of turf on each side of the concrete patio and one larger rectangle section of turf in front of the patio, all the way to the fence. Traditionally, you'd want to use rotors on the larger area, and you'd have to use 4" pop-ups on the smaller square areas. So that's a minimum of 2 zones. But with the MPRs, that can go as low as 8' diameter all the way up to 40' or so, you have all the versatility in the world. We can often design systems now with just 3 zones that would have traditionally been 5 or 6 zone systems.
I'm sorry, being that you and your foreman thought they sucked, they must. Now back to reality.
If you or your superior would have given the Rainbirds a chance you would have seen that they did a far better job of providing even coverage than the MP's. When I first saw them work, I laughed, but then I noticed they covered the area much more thorough than the MP's. The MP's are useless when it comes to close to head coverage, thats why I liked the Rainbirds and they also had a lower trajectory.
In think that MP's are going to turn out to be a service nightmare. The nozzle is only as good as the mist body its put on. Would you rather have to service a system with 20 rotary heads and 8 mist heads or a system with 48 mist bodies in the lawn? Think before you install. And they are not as cheap as alot of beginners think, about $2 less than a PGP or similar. So when you start putting 10-15 on a zone do the math, especially if you normally charge by the zone.
So what, you could cover that area you described with one zone. You still had to put heads there that I hoped you charged for.There is still no rotary head that waters better than a standard mist head, so why not do it in 2 zones? It costs you about the same, the cust. gets a better system and you make a little more $.
Don't get me wrong, they do have there place but I don't think we should go crazy about them until they come up with the "super mist body".
P.S. Anyone doing commercial work with these please give me their addresses. I would like to post a serviceman there daily. :D

[PurpHaze]

Time will tell. I never go whole hog on a new item until it's proven itself to me. I currently have two zones converted over from spray pop-ups, will convert two more over the winter (different water and soil), converted my back yard and will wait at least one full season before even thinking about converting the other 400 zones. Of course that would be a long term phasing in to convert that many zones. :p

Don't know where you were going with price but a Hunter PGJ costs us about $9.32 each. It was/is the sprinkler of choice because of the 1/2" inlet that matches up to the 1/2" swing joints for spray pop-ups. The MP-Rotators cost $4.70 each and in my case, where we're looking to convert "multiple row" spray zones and eliminate the overall number of heads in a given zone, the spray bodies are already in the ground. If I have to replace the body then it's another $1.65 for that but I buy those by the case. Gotta admit though that it does cost us another 23 cents for 1/2" threaded caps to cap off all those sprinklers that are now unnecessary. :cool:

[Rainman7]

Time will tell. I never go whole hog on a new item until it's proven itself to me. I currently have two zones converted over from spray pop-ups, will convert two more over the winter (different water and soil), converted my back yard and will wait at least one full season before even thinking about converting the other 400 zones. Of course that would be a long term phasing in to convert that many zones. :p

Don't know where you were going with price but a Hunter PGJ costs us about $9.32 each. It was/is the sprinkler of choice because of the 1/2" inlet that matches up to the 1/2" swing joints for spray pop-ups. The MP-Rotators cost $4.70 each and in my case, where we're looking to convert "multiple row" spray zones and eliminate the overall number of heads in a given zone, the spray bodies are already in the ground. If I have to replace the body then it's another $1.65 for that but I buy those by the case. Gotta admit though that it does cost us another 23 cents for 1/2" threaded caps to cap off all those sprinklers that are now unnecessary. :cool:
I said PGP, and they cost me about 8.75. I never use PGJ, dont see the need. I can do the same thing that a PGJ does with a PGP. And if I cant, I'll use a mist or a MP. I'm just saying $6.35 is not much less than $8.75, but its alot more than $2.50 for a body&mist nozzle. So they are not sooo cheap.
Anyway, I think MP's work great when there is a low pressure problem or in certain other situations, but I dont think anyone should start using them exculusively do you? It seems that some people on this thread are going nuts with them and are forgetting that they are still just on a cheap mist head body. I currently use SRS bodies which are really the same as rainbirds. I wouldnt want 40 of either of them in any lawn unless I had to. Anyone have experience with a much better mist body?

[jerryrwm]

I'm sorry, being that you and your foreman thought they sucked, they must. Now back to reality.
If you or your superior would have given the Rainbirds a chance you would have seen that they did a far better job of providing even coverage than the MP's. When I first saw them work, I laughed, but then I noticed they covered the area much more thorough than the MP's. The MP's are useless when it comes to close to head coverage, thats why I liked the Rainbirds and they also had a lower trajectory.

Well, if the Rainbirds had worked properly then they would still be on the market correct? Once they get the issues worked out then maybe we can compare. As for close to head watering, if you spaced the heads as the manufacturer suggests which is 'head to head' then that would not be a problem. Also with a lower trajectory the radius would decrease also correct?

In think that MP's are going to turn out to be a service nightmare. The nozzle is only as good as the mist body its put on. Would you rather have to service a system with 20 rotary heads and 8 mist heads or a system with 48 mist bodies in the lawn? Think before you install. And they are not as cheap as alot of beginners think, about $2 less than a PGP or similar. So when you start putting 10-15 on a zone do the math, especially if you normally charge by the zone.

Service nightmare in what respect? True the nozzle is only as good as the manufacturer makes it. The body that it is put on has no bearing on the performance of the nozzle. Now, a SRS head is NOT the same as an 1804. Not in the same league. Try the Hunter Pro series head. Now you are getting in the same arena as the 1804.
As for the number of heads - if you have 20 rotor heads PGP's spaced at 30' guess what? You'll have 20 MP Rotators spaced at 30'. If the MP Rotator cost $4.75 and the Pro-04 costs $1.35 that's $6.10 ea. vs. a PGP at $9.50 or a PGJ at $7.95. So, I'm still ahead on parts by $3.40 over the PGP and $1.85 over the PGJ. If I put 10-15 PGPs on a zone, I can put 10-15 MP3000s on the same zone. I'm still money ahead, right? I still haven't figured out where people are figuring that they can use more MP3000s on a zone than they can PGPs. They both have nearly the same flow rate. Check the charts.
http://www.mprotator.com/techCorner/modelsPerformance.html?model=MP3000
The important factor is the fact that the MP operates at lower pressure, not less water. And if spaced according to manufacturer's recommended spacing, the precipitation rate is higher.

Now as to the serviceability issue. If I have a system with 20 PGPs or other conventional rotor heads, and one that has 20 MP3000s on Pro-04 bodies, you can bet your ass that I want to service the MP system. If the heads quit rotating say 5 of them, I'll have changed out the 5 MP3000s and back on the road while the other guy is still working on the second PGP change out. Think about it. To change out a MP3000, I merely pull up the flow tube, unscrew the MP, screw on a new MP, and let it snap back in place. With the PGP, I need to move the grass back, take a pair of channel locks and unscrew the cap to remove the internals. Or I need to dig down and expose the bottom of the head so I can unscrew it from the nipple and keep any dirt out of the lines. Then I need to put in the new head/internals, and let it snap back in place. But I'm not done yet. I have to put in the correct nozzle, then adjust the set/diffuser screw, and possibly adjust the arc. If it is a full circle head, I need to make two revolutions with the adjustment key, if it is less than 180° I still need to tweak it. But I'm still not done. I still have to cover the hole that I dug, and make the ground look presentable. And I still have four more to go, and that MP system is being turned on and checked for proper alignment. So, let's see how the money works out.
Total time on MP system - 20 min. Minimum labor charge - 1 hr @ $65.00. 5 MP rotators @ $4.75 ea. = $23.75 Price to customer - $9.00 ea.Total invoice $110.00 plus tax.
Total time on PGP system - 60 min. Minimum labor charge - 1 hr @ $65.00 5 PGPs @ $9.50 ea. Price to customer - $19.00 ea Total invoice $160.00 plus tax. PGP system wins by $50.00. But, I can get two of these done in the time it takes to do one, and that includes drive time, so I bill $220.00 parts and labor for 1 hr of work, and I win by $60.00 for that same hour. And I didn't have to get near as dirty, nor near as frustrated because the damn nozzle went in sideways and the set screw is pinching the nozzle ear down, and I didn't have to flush out the line because I knocked some dirt in the riser when I removed the head. Make dollars and sense to me.

As for bidding by the zone, that is the most sure fire way I know of to lose money on a job. If one doesn't know what the costs are, and the number of heads required on each zone, and the complexity of the zones themselves, then one is subject to get burned.

So what, you could cover that area you described with one zone. You still had to put heads there that I hoped you charged for.There is still no rotary head that waters better than a standard mist head, so why not do it in 2 zones? It costs you about the same, the cust. gets a better system and you make a little more $.

That is true. A spray system will provide a better irrigated area over a rotor system. But we are comparing rotor heads in an area large enough for rotors - over 25' wide. Keeping the overall system cost to the customer down while still providing adequate coverage and being profitable for the contractor is the name of the game. If I can put in one zone instead of two, it may mean the difference between a 12 zone controller and a 15, or a 6 zone instead of a 9. it means one or more less valves and the associated parts. It is pretty much a proven fact that a spray system costs nearly twice as much to install as a rotory system. More pipe, more valves, larger controller, and a lot more labor. So that is where the trade-off comes into play. It is a matter of selling the customer on the type of system you want to install.


Don't get me wrong, they do have there place but I don't think we should go crazy about them until they come up with the "super mist body".

I still don't think that the body is going to be a factor. If it is, then you are going to have problems with a conventional spray system also. Use the 1804 or the Pro-04. SRS is a little suspect at best.

P.S. Anyone doing commercial work with these please give me their addresses. I would like to post a serviceman there daily. :D

You gonna pay him to sit there and listen top the radio? It's not like these heads are new to the industry. The technology has been around for a number of years in the ag end of this industry. And the MP are about three years old now, being introduced in 2002. But they weren't actively marketed until recently. Ewing made a bold move and became the nearly exclusive distributor for Walla Walla, and suddenly people started hearing about them and actually seeing them. And with 180+ stores across the country and more going up every month it seems, the distribution has taken off. I am still watchful and have not gone exclusively to MPs, but I wouldn't hesitate to install them anywhere I could install a PGP. The only downfall might be in high traffic areas where the pedestrians keep cutting the corners.

Jerry

[drmiller100]

customers don't care whether they have gear drives or mp's. in fact, customers actually prefer mp's cuz they look cooler. dumb reason, but them's the facts.

i plopped over 300 mp's this summer. had exactly one DOA, which turned out to be a rainbird spray body.

like the man said, much easier to work on mp's then gears. if you can't get coverage close to the head, then you are not paying attention to how vertical your spray bodies are.
invariably dry spots close to teh head are because the body is leaned back. They are pretty sensitive to that. 10 degrees makes a BIG difference.

maybe i'll eat all of those mp's. don't know. but I DO know I won't be eating any rainbird sprays that all got recalled.
:waving:

[PurpHaze]

i plopped over 300 mp's this summer. had exactly one DOA, which turned out to be a rainbird spray body.:waving:

The only problem I had when installing the MP-Rs was to not over-strength the adjustment ring which was a learning curve thing. The first couple I did I turned past the stop and ended up starting to loosen the nozzle from the riser. Started getting leakage and then having a problem of not getting the arc correct. Once I realized that the ring turns very easy and will only go so far (90*) and I backed off a little with my monster hands everything worked great. :blob3:

[Wet_Boots]

I can stand on the sidelines while the MPs are getting their on-the-job-experience. I much prefer heads with 3/4" connections, just for the strength aspect. I'd still install Toro 300 stream rotors, customer's budget allowing.

[PurpHaze]

As I've stated before my perspective comes from a maintenance standpoint with only two irrigation guys to service thousands of sprinklers throughout our district. Time is money from the respect that we just have so many man hours to cover all the problems.

On a typical 60' x 30' zone you'd need 15 spray heads with 15' nozzles to cover the area while you'd need just 6 MP-R 3000s to do the same job. You'd have pipe running down the middle of the spray zone where trees might (in our case WILL) be planted, ultimately breaking lines and sprinklers. This correlates to saved repair hours for us and fewer related problems from soggy areas created by broken sprinklers. (BTW... On my designs I try and keep main lines out of the center of smaller zones and "horseshoe" the lateral lines around the perimeter to purposely keep the middle of the zone free for tree planting. Tree planting is usually an afterthought by school groups and no special irrigation is supplied to these trees.)

Now I realize that there are good rotors out there that will accomplish the same thing but there's one other aspect. If a rotor stops turning then you end up with a constant stream creating a mud bog in a finite area due to the nature of the single stream aspect. I can look at any large field system and pick out the non-rotating head by the telltale pie shaped wet bog. My stream rotor experience is limited to the Toro 300 prior to this and often we don't even know one of them has stopped rotating because the water is sprayed through 3-5 streams which don't create a mud bog while the other sprinklers pick up the slack to keep the area somewhat in check.

Like I've already said, I'm not about to start a mass renovation until I've had the chance to evaluate the MP-R over a 105 degree summer season. :D

[Wet_Boots]

I'd use the 300's for the job, in place of MPs, based strictly on their very-long-term performance record. (if I wanted stream rotors)

[drmiller100]

so how do you get under 6 feet with the toro solution?????

i'm guessing you can't mix and match the toro 300 with the traditional spray nozzles??????

thanks!

[Wet_Boots]

I was thinking of the larger areas that use rotors when I mentioned the 300s - little areas would get mist heads. This is assuming a customer wanted the best. At least the best as my own personal observation, over a period of several years, is witness to. MPs may enter the roster, but I can stand to wait on them.

[Rainman7]

Well, if the Rainbirds had worked properly then they would still be on the market correct? Once they get the issues worked out then maybe we can compare. As for close to head watering, if you spaced the heads as the manufacturer suggests which is 'head to head' then that would not be a problem. Also with a lower trajectory the radius would decrease also correct?



Service nightmare in what respect? True the nozzle is only as good as the manufacturer makes it. The body that it is put on has no bearing on the performance of the nozzle. Now, a SRS head is NOT the same as an 1804. Not in the same league. Try the Hunter Pro series head. Now you are getting in the same arena as the 1804.
As for the number of heads - if you have 20 rotor heads PGP's spaced at 30' guess what? You'll have 20 MP Rotators spaced at 30'. If the MP Rotator cost $4.75 and the Pro-04 costs $1.35 that's $6.10 ea. vs. a PGP at $9.50 or a PGJ at $7.95. So, I'm still ahead on parts by $3.40 over the PGP and $1.85 over the PGJ. If I put 10-15 PGPs on a zone, I can put 10-15 MP3000s on the same zone. I'm still money ahead, right? I still haven't figured out where people are figuring that they can use more MP3000s on a zone than they can PGPs. They both have nearly the same flow rate. Check the charts.
http://www.mprotator.com/techCorner/modelsPerformance.html?model=MP3000
The important factor is the fact that the MP operates at lower pressure, not less water. And if spaced according to manufacturer's recommended spacing, the precipitation rate is higher.

Now as to the serviceability issue. If I have a system with 20 PGPs or other conventional rotor heads, and one that has 20 MP3000s on Pro-04 bodies, you can bet your ass that I want to service the MP system. If the heads quit rotating say 5 of them, I'll have changed out the 5 MP3000s and back on the road while the other guy is still working on the second PGP change out. Think about it. To change out a MP3000, I merely pull up the flow tube, unscrew the MP, screw on a new MP, and let it snap back in place. With the PGP, I need to move the grass back, take a pair of channel locks and unscrew the cap to remove the internals. Or I need to dig down and expose the bottom of the head so I can unscrew it from the nipple and keep any dirt out of the lines. Then I need to put in the new head/internals, and let it snap back in place. But I'm not done yet. I have to put in the correct nozzle, then adjust the set/diffuser screw, and possibly adjust the arc. If it is a full circle head, I need to make two revolutions with the adjustment key, if it is less than 180° I still need to tweak it. But I'm still not done. I still have to cover the hole that I dug, and make the ground look presentable. And I still have four more to go, and that MP system is being turned on and checked for proper alignment. So, let's see how the money works out.
Total time on MP system - 20 min. Minimum labor charge - 1 hr @ $65.00. 5 MP rotators @ $4.75 ea. = $23.75 Price to customer - $9.00 ea.Total invoice $110.00 plus tax.
Total time on PGP system - 60 min. Minimum labor charge - 1 hr @ $65.00 5 PGPs @ $9.50 ea. Price to customer - $19.00 ea Total invoice $160.00 plus tax. PGP system wins by $50.00. But, I can get two of these done in the time it takes to do one, and that includes drive time, so I bill $220.00 parts and labor for 1 hr of work, and I win by $60.00 for that same hour. And I didn't have to get near as dirty, nor near as frustrated because the damn nozzle went in sideways and the set screw is pinching the nozzle ear down, and I didn't have to flush out the line because I knocked some dirt in the riser when I removed the head. Make dollars and sense to me.

As for bidding by the zone, that is the most sure fire way I know of to lose money on a job. If one doesn't know what the costs are, and the number of heads required on each zone, and the complexity of the zones themselves, then one is subject to get burned.



That is true. A spray system will provide a better irrigated area over a rotor system. But we are comparing rotor heads in an area large enough for rotors - over 25' wide. Keeping the overall system cost to the customer down while still providing adequate coverage and being profitable for the contractor is the name of the game. If I can put in one zone instead of two, it may mean the difference between a 12 zone controller and a 15, or a 6 zone instead of a 9. it means one or more less valves and the associated parts. It is pretty much a proven fact that a spray system costs nearly twice as much to install as a rotory system. More pipe, more valves, larger controller, and a lot more labor. So that is where the trade-off comes into play. It is a matter of selling the customer on the type of system you want to install.




I still don't think that the body is going to be a factor. If it is, then you are going to have problems with a conventional spray system also. Use the 1804 or the Pro-04. SRS is a little suspect at best.



You gonna pay him to sit there and listen top the radio? It's not like these heads are new to the industry. The technology has been around for a number of years in the ag end of this industry. And the MP are about three years old now, being introduced in 2002. But they weren't actively marketed until recently. Ewing made a bold move and became the nearly exclusive distributor for Walla Walla, and suddenly people started hearing about them and actually seeing them. And with 180+ stores across the country and more going up every month it seems, the distribution has taken off. I am still watchful and have not gone exclusively to MPs, but I wouldn't hesitate to install them anywhere I could install a PGP. The only downfall might be in high traffic areas where the pedestrians keep cutting the corners.

Jerry
Thats some reply, I wish I would have stayed up to wait for it. I really dont want to argue all of those points with you but it seems you are definitely sold on them or your on their payroll. We are really all the same I think, we find a new product we like, it seems to work, and we want start offering it as the latest and greatest product. I think its really because irrigation is pretty boring. We go to a job, install it, turn around, and for the most part the house looks the same. When is the last time someone said WOW who installed your sprinler system. Well maybe in some other parts of the country but here on Long Island, I install, get paid and most times people dont care to even see it run. Some dont even know it ran all year, they just know their lawn was green. Whopee. Thats why I started using MP's and the Rainbird version once in a while because I would make the cust. check it out and get the WOW factor working. At least I got some satisfaction.
I think Rainbird rushed out their first rotary nozzle just to get it to market. My feeling is that once they re-engineer it, it will be better than the MP(IMO it was to begin with) just because they have more research fund to back it up.

[PurpHaze]

I'd use the 300's for the job, in place of MPs, based strictly on their very-long-term performance record. (if I wanted stream rotors)

The only problems I've found with the Toro 300 Stream Rotors are, (1) the 01 nozzles are crap and, (2) none of them work well in sandy soil because they syphon particles back in that clog the nozzles. Just my own personal experience and your mileage may differ.

[PurpHaze]

so how do you get under 6 feet with the toro solution?????

The Toro 300 doesn't have a nozzle that will go that small. They had/have an omni nozzle (or something like that) that is adjustable but I always found them to not work well. If I can't use the 02/03 nozzles then I don't use them at all. That's why I'm so curious as to the performance of the MP-R 1000s.

i'm guessing you can't mix and match the toro 300 with the traditional spray nozzles??????

thanks!

In a word... no.

[PurpHaze]

We are really all the same I think, we find a new product we like, it seems to work, and we want start offering it as the latest and greatest product. I think its really because irrigation is pretty boring. We go to a job, install it, turn around, and for the most part the house looks the same. When is the last time someone said WOW who installed your sprinler system.

You have some very valid points. Maybe the answer is personal pride and satisfaction? When I drive around I see and know that certain schools, sports fields and other areas look so great because I designed and installed the irrigation. There is my blood, sweat, tears and LOVE of irrigation in my systems. Other areas were done so many years ago by plumbers and have mixed sprinklers, bad spacing and other factors that make them marginal. It's just that most plumbers don't understand sprinkler irrigation but they're great in getting water to/from something. Bottom line is that you are right in the respect that most people don't care what kind of sprinklers they have installed. They're only concerned about the "curb appeal" result.

I think Rainbird rushed out their first rotary nozzle just to get it to market. My feeling is that once they re-engineer it, it will be better than the MP(IMO it was to begin with) just because they have more research fund to back it up.

You could be right again. We all know of irrigation products that have flunked the initial test, been retooled, re-engineered or totally changed and then come out as a fine product. I like a lot of the Hunter products but their first attempt at a spray head was absolute garbage. The city started using Hunter I-40s two full years before we switched over to them for our main field sprinkler. We were just hesitant to switch from the Toro 640 because it had given us so many years of trouble free performance. But the advantages to the change outweighed any initial concern AND we had the opportunity to see how they performed for the city parks for two years before making the switch. If Rainbird gets the bugs worked out we very well could be touting them in the future. I use the Rainbird Falcon high speed head exclusively for softball/baseball dirt infield areas and they work great. I'm never against change... I just want to make sure that the product will perform well over time.

[Wet_Boots]

The only problems I've found with the Toro 300 Stream Rotors are, (1) the 01 nozzles are crap and, (2) none of them work well in sandy soil because they syphon particles back in that clog the nozzles.I always considered an 01 nozzle as to be used only as a last resort, knowing that it overwaters in comparison to 02 nozzles. As for backsiphoning particles, I work mostly in clay, and like to see heads installed with the tops a bit above grade, to try to keep the seals from being worn down. I think that the careful setting of heads is especially important in sandy soils.

There's a sort of two-part reliability on sprinkler equipment - what works right off without service callbacks and short-term headaches, and what continues to work reliably a decade or more after installation. You really can't sell the long-term reliability of products that haven't already demonstrated their track record.

[PurpHaze]

There's a sort of two-part reliability on sprinkler equipment - what works right off without service callbacks and short-term headaches, and what continues to work reliably a decade or more after installation. You really can't sell the long-term reliability of products that haven't already demonstrated their track record.

Valid observation and I'm going to add another one. The problem arises when the technology changes so rapidly. Sometimes products we are comfortable with are changed for no apparent reason and they never get the opportunity to last those ten years.

For my money one of the best add-ons was the development of "blow-out" caps for spray pop-ups.

[Dirty Water]

For my money one of the best add-ons was the development of "blow-out" caps for spray pop-ups.

See, and I dislike those, It seems that if I don't nozzle the sprayheads first, our guys get tons of crap down into the head...and trust me, it doesn't blow out well.

Whats wrong with just a solid cap...We don't have a problem with dirt in our pipes.

[PurpHaze]

See, and I dislike those, It seems that if I don't nozzle the sprayheads first, our guys get tons of crap down into the head...and trust me, it doesn't blow out well.

Whats wrong with just a solid cap...We don't have a problem with dirt in our pipes.

You guys must work in a clean room. :D

There could be a difference between our trenching and your plowing. We solve your first problem by leaving a depression around the sprinkler so crud won't back-siphon into the sprinkler. After the lines are blown out and nozzles/filters set then a quick placement of soil and foot tamping around the sprinkler finsihes it off.

On our systems there is always some pipe shavings, glue globs, dirt or something else that needs to be blown out to insure that the zone is clean running prior to installation of the heads. Prior to the blow-outs we either had to leave the swing joints up or with sprinkler buckets only on them to ensure that debris was out. Now we can just set the sprinkler height/orientation, blow the system out and then set the nozzles.

[Dirty Water]

We use a bevel on all cuts, to remove pipe shavings and give it a smooth edge, that eliminates pipe shavings in the pipe.

Plowing it really eliminates dirt spillage into the pipe that trenching causes (we do both, but favor plowing).

We use IPS 725, it doesnt typically make huge glue globs like some of the other heavier glues, but I have seen a head clog with glue.

What usually happens if there is dirt or a pebble in the line is that it gets stuck on the first MPT X swing barb ell coming out of the tee, not in the head.

[Black Water]

I also like the blow outs (Hunter Pro Spray). We once had to leave some 2" open pipe that we were feeding our valves with on a job due to a sudden down pour. The next day we piped up the valves and laterals. When I flushed the zone I saw a spray head beside my foot stopped up all of a sudden. Then a frog leg popped out. Then two frog legs, and sure enough a whole frog shot about four feet across the sidewalk onto the grass. Never saw anything like it.;) But one things for sure,.....he would have never fit through a filter and nozzle.

[Dirty Water]

I also like the blow outs (Hunter Pro Spray). We once had to leave some 2" open pipe that we were feeding our valves with on a job due to a sudden down pour. The next day we piped up the valves and laterals. When I flushed the zone I saw a spray head beside my foot stopped up all of a sudden. Then a frog leg popped out. Then two frog legs, and sure enough a whole frog shot about four feet across the sidewalk onto the grass. Never saw anything like it.;) But one things for sure,.....he would have never fit through a filter and nozzle.

Can't work in the rain?

If a pipe is left open, someone gets yelled at here. :) Everything gets ducttaped while being worked with.

[PurpHaze]

We use a bevel on all cuts, to remove pipe shavings and give it a smooth edge, that eliminates pipe shavings in the pipe.

When I lived in Oregon I was working at a state park north of Klamath Falls and one spring we had to replace the irrigation system in the day use area. My boss initially insisted on beveling each and every cut because that's what the district HQ in Bend wanted. Of course it took extra time and we finally got tired of it and just resorted to cutting the pipe, reaming it with GLOVED hands to remove the burrs, primering and glueing. Got the job done quicker and no one was the wiser.

Plowing it really eliminates dirt spillage into the pipe that trenching causes (we do both, but favor plowing).

I have to admit that with trenching we get into some tight spots, especially where we initially come out of the valve and have to go several directions. The pipe lengths are usually short there and the cementing has to be done in the trench. Always leads to some debris in the pipe that has to be blown out before putting nozzles/heads on. Once we start the longer runs the pipe can be staked out of the trench and the process is much cleaner.

We use IPS 725, it doesnt typically make huge glue globs like some of the other heavier glues, but I have seen a head clog with glue.

We always try and wait a little before blowing out the zone in order to allow the glue to solidify. We use this time to "clean and jerk" the area by picking up scaps, moving tools, etc.

What usually happens if there is dirt or a pebble in the line is that it gets stuck on the first MPT X swing barb ell coming out of the tee, not in the head.

Dirt is no problem but if we encounter a rock we will go so far as actually cutting the pipe to remove it and then reglueing the swing joing back on. Water will eventually wear that sucker down so it can pass into the swing joint and cause problems with the head.

[PurpHaze]

I also like the blow outs (Hunter Pro Spray). We once had to leave some 2" open pipe that we were feeding our valves with on a job due to a sudden down pour. The next day we piped up the valves and laterals. When I flushed the zone I saw a spray head beside my foot stopped up all of a sudden. Then a frog leg popped out. Then two frog legs, and sure enough a whole frog shot about four feet across the sidewalk onto the grass. Never saw anything like it.;) But one things for sure,.....he would have never fit through a filter and nozzle.

ROFLMAO about the frog!!! :p

I'm with Jon on this one. We try to not leave the ends of either main lines or laterals open. In most cases we'll duct tape the end or throw a cap loosely onto the end. If we feel that heavy rain is near we shut down the process since with trenching the backfill will get muddy and is a pain to put back into the trenches. We also always duct tape the outlet side TOE nipples on valves and set the valve boxes because it might be some time before we come back and install a particular zone. We usually will have the entire main line, valves and wiring completed and tested prior to installing any zones.

[Black Water]

Can't work in the rain?

Rain yes. Down pours off of Hurricane rain bands no. Pipe floating in the trenches and trying to backfill with soup? No thanks. :waving:

[jerryrwm]

Can't work in the rain?



Nope. Have two personal rules when it comes to rain. If it is raining before I start, I don't start. I don't mind getting wet while working, but I am not going to start out wet. If it starts raining while I am working, I quit and go to the house when the water runs down my back and into the crack of my ass!! I'm just funny that way. LOL

Jerry

[Dirty Water]

Jerry if I did that I'd only work 10 days a year :)

[drmiller100]

wow.

pretty spendy sprinkler system if you only get 10 dry days a year!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[PurpHaze]

wow.

pretty spendy sprinkler system if you only get 10 dry days a year!!!!!!!!!!!!1

It's not the quantity that counts but rather the quality. :)

[Dirty Water]

wow.

pretty spendy sprinkler system if you only get 10 dry days a year!!!!!!!!!!!!1

It starts raining here around october, and keeps raining until june.

From June to September you need irrigation.

[PurpHaze]

It starts raining here around october, and keeps raining until june.

From June to September you need irrigation.

Considering you live on the Olympic peninsula that's actually a lot of dry days. :p

[Dirty Water]

Considering you live on the Olympic peninsula that's actually a lot of dry days. :p

Yeah, its funny, I've been here 18 years and I have yet to go hike in the rainforest.

[PurpHaze]

Yeah, its funny, I've been here 18 years and I have yet to go hike in the rainforest.

Now THAT is a shame. You need to make time to do this. It's a whole different world in there.

[bicmudpuppy]

From their web site: "Walla Walla Sprinkler Company, a turf & landscape irrigation company, is a subsidiary of Nelson Irrigation Corporation..."
Looking up the link for the Nelson valve made me think of this and come back to it.

Walla Walla is a sub of Nelson Irrigation. The trash we all know and love is produced by L.R. Nelson or Nelson Turf to truly seperate entities. Now I feel better about trying MP's at the first oportune chance.

[bicmudpuppy]

From their web site: "Walla Walla Sprinkler Company, a turf & landscape irrigation company, is a subsidiary of Nelson Irrigation Corporation..."
Looking up the link for the Nelson valve made me think of this and come back to it.

Walla Walla is a sub of Nelson Irrigation. The trash we all know and love is produced by L.R. Nelson or Nelson Turf two truly seperate entities. Now I feel better about trying MP's at the first oportune chance.

[PurpHaze]

Looking up the link for the Nelson valve made me think of this and come back to it.

Walla Walla is a sub of Nelson Irrigation. The trash we all know and love is produced by L.R. Nelson or Nelson Turf two truly seperate entities. Now I feel better about trying MP's at the first oportune chance.

It's kind of one of those "marketing things" like Toro buying out Irritrol and Eicon, etc.

[402-676-Lawn The answer]

not impressed

[PurpHaze]

not impressed

See how easy it is to quote what someone else has said? You can also go back to the "Topic Review" section below the response area, pick out other posts and then use the "wrap quotes" command to do the same thing. Then what you reply might have some bearing on the thread as a whole or as a specific response to an individual's post.

Based on what I've seen of your four posts so far I wouldn't be surprised if you're full of stagnant pressure. :D

[Wet_Boots]

Based on what I've seen of your four posts so far I wouldn't be surprised if you're full of stagnant pressure. :D
I dunno, we got a ways to go before we hit the <a href=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22stagnant+pressure%22+lawnsite&btnG=Google+Search>big time</a>.

[PurpHaze]

I dunno, we got a ways to go before we hit the <a href=http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22stagnant+pressure%22+lawnsite&btnG=Google+Search>big time</a>.

That guy said he could come back as someone else and end up being "best buds" with us. I just found these posts to be somewhat cryptic and wouldn't be surprised at all.

[Wet_Boots]

I dunno, I think it takes some posting and reading (especially the reading) before one can see the nationwide irrigation picture, and contribute appropriately.

(Hey, it's Black Friday! you're supposed to be out shopping)

[PurpHaze]

I dunno, I think it takes some posting and reading (especially the reading) before one can see the nationwide irrigation picture, and contribute appropriately.

Valid point. I was just commenting that the posts really didn't mean much.

(Hey, it's Black Friday! you're supposed to be out shopping)

Not my cup of tea. I'd rather rake leaves. :p

[Wet_Boots]

Same here, except for the leaves. They'll decay eventually.

[PurpHaze]

Same here, except for the leaves. They'll decay eventually.

Freakin' Chinese elms in the front yard. I wanted to cut them down 17 years ago but was nixed by the wife. Seeds get into car vents, leaves too small to really rake, big mess when it rains, etc. Spent five hours today cleaning things up and then the wind and a little rain came up. Looks like I sat on my butt all day and didn't do a thing. :cry:

Best thing of the day was that I cleaned out the rain gutters, washed the roof down to get twigs off that now won't go in the gutters. Ready for projected rain on Monday/Tuesday. :blob3:

[Dirty Water]

I don't clean my leaves until there isnt a damn one left on the tree's.

I bet my neighbor hates me.

[PurpHaze]

I don't clean my leaves until there isnt a damn one left on the tree's.

I'd be walking on 10" of slick crap if I did this and the drain in the gutter would be backing up way down the street. :cry:

I bet my neighbor hates me.

My neighbor has two Chinese elms also. We hate each other. :D