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PLM-1
10-16-2005, 02:18 AM
In the past i have always used my 14" chop saw with a masonry "blade". That ain't cuttin' it this time...literally. It takes FOREVER to cut these pavers.

What does everyone use to cut pavers with? Should i just switch to a diamond blade? They're like $139, so I don't wanna just try and see with it.

neversatisfiedj
10-16-2005, 06:53 AM
Stihl Ts400 w/ diamond blade

Dreams To Designs
10-16-2005, 08:21 AM
Stihl TS 400 w/diamond blade and a table saw, Edco HSS14 with diamond blade.

Kirk

mbella
10-16-2005, 10:02 AM
Two table saws with diamond blades and a Stihl TS-400 with a diamond blade as well. Yes, you should just buy a diamond blade.

Redbear
10-16-2005, 10:07 AM
Should be able to find a diamond blade for under $100. It won't last as long as the more expensive ones but you'll see for yourself that they are worth it. No other way to go. I purchased a $100 blade and lasted about 15 jobs, patios and walkway stuff. Now I spend the extra $$.

PLM-1
10-16-2005, 12:28 PM
So I guess I will go for the diamond blade...thanks guys. Hopefully this 5 min/ brick to cut will stop!

PLM-1
10-16-2005, 04:51 PM
Now i can't get one that will fit my chop saw for less than $200. The one that was $139 was a Dewalt @ Lowe's. Homecheapo had one that would fit but like I said, it was $200. Where is a good place to purchase these at!?

zedosix
10-16-2005, 05:25 PM
Use a good diamond blade and cutting a brick should take no more than 15 seconds or so. Thats all.

UNISCAPER
10-16-2005, 07:02 PM
We have two 20" table saws, and one 14" saw along with chop style saws, Partner and Husqvarna.

For paver work, we cut boarders with the hand held saws, and for individual bricks, the weapon of choice is the 14" saw, but we end up using 20" saws when pinched. I made the 20's, 23 HP Kohler engine, and a hydraulically driven blade so we don't have to worry about belts.

For pavers, the table saw is the only way to go.

Now, if we are laying tumbled pavers, we use a breaker unless a small part needs to be cut off. 2 seconds and the unit is cut to fit.

UNISCAPER
10-16-2005, 07:09 PM
For a great deal and excellent service on blades email Joe Wizzard,
www.gardenstatediamond.com

I've been dealing with Joe for 3 years now, he gets my product when we need it, and is very reasonable. I got for example, 6, 14" premium diamond blades,, and a 4.5"x24" deep core bit and the bill was $800.00 with shipping.

In comparison, the local brick supplier charges $320.00 for a 14", and other suppliers in the area are close to the same.

Try him out, he is out of Jersey and really does a good job for our team. He can also get granite tools as well for when we build our BBQ counter tops.

vntgrcr
10-16-2005, 08:46 PM
If you are a little hesitant to buy a diamond blade or even a sliding table wet saw, you aren't charging enough for your work. You will find having the right tool(s) will make the job look so much more professional and go quicker for you. What are you charging per sq./ft.? Here in the N.E. it is anywhere from $10-18 including materials. Just give it some thought.
David

mbella
10-16-2005, 09:04 PM
David, that's a good point. I was thinking the same. BTW, here, the range is about the same.

treedoc1
10-16-2005, 10:14 PM
I also second Joe Wizard.

I use 7 1/4" worm drive saws for my crews...$189 and they last for a few years cutting flagstone with the T-seg diamond blades(12mm and $39 from Joe) each blade lasts for a job and it's on to the next new blade. My 3 crews share a Stihl cutoff for the large border cuts but for day to day we prefer the worm drive and the 7" blades. They last more than twice as long as the Dewalt and Hitachi blades from Lowe's and Depot and for $20-$30 less per blade.

PLM-1
10-16-2005, 11:44 PM
I bought a Norton diamond blade, $203. I just didn't want to buy something that I didn't need. I am charging $12/sq ft labor only.

neversatisfiedj
10-17-2005, 07:21 AM
What model table saw do you use ?

DVS Hardscaper
10-17-2005, 07:46 AM
We seldom cut pavers with a cut off saw. We used to cut borders with the cut offs, but now we seldom do that for purposes of perfect craftsmanship.

We buy diamond blades from World Diamond Source in FL.

EDCO is the WORLD leader in table saws. CAll them at (301) 663-1600 and request literature for their paver saws. Then when the literature arrives...check out the dude on the cover, as well as on page 51! :)

For those fabricators out there - I do not suggest building YOUR OWN saw! If something went wrong such as the blade coming loose, you'll be held liable. Where if you go with a product that is manufactured...the manufacturer can be liable. Its nice to fabricate things for your trailers and truck bodies, but somthing spinning at 3000 RPMS may one day turn out to be one's worst nightmare.

UNISCAPER
10-17-2005, 10:01 AM
Well Andrew, there are sometimes when manufacturers, world leaders or not just can't get it right. They manufacturer for the broadest band oif their markets, which is fine. I prefer our machines to be perfect, the way we need them to be and the way our valuede employees deserve them. If you think blades are a danger, you are living in a paranoid world. The blade has more chance of self destructing than the saw does of loosing the blade because we use a left handed thread to lock blades to the shaft, not a right hand as all other brand saws use.

The features we have in our saws work for our specific purposes. I wouldn't suggest it for the average person myself simply because most don't have the skills to custom design such an item. In all honesty, saws are a very easy thing to build in relation to alot of other machinery.

The problem with any table saw that uses a moving bed is when the thunping of an engine at idle occurs as does in all engines, the rollers wear notches in the side rails on the tray making uneven cuts and difficulty with getting a precision cut...

The second prpoblem is the throttles do not return to idle, wasting away valuable recourses like fuel and engines. Our saws return to idle when the operator lets go.

The third problem is with the belts, which wear, need adjustment, and cause other problems like off angled cutting. That's why hydraulic works so well. It's the difference between a hydro walk behind mower, and a belt drive....No comparison.

The fourth problem is with the belt driven water pumps. They are beyond costly. A simple hose bib with a 90° ball valve just like a cut off saw works just fine and can be regulated very easily.

If I had to buy a saw, the one I would buy is an Edco. Compared to all the other dsaws that use aluminum castings for the cradle and engine mount, Edco uses steel which is by far better. They are just not exactly the way we like them.

Squizzy246B
10-17-2005, 10:29 AM
G,day Bill. Is it possible for you to post a pic of your table saws please?.

cgland
10-17-2005, 10:37 PM
DVS - Don't you overlay and cut in place?

Chris

DVS Hardscaper
10-18-2005, 08:45 PM
CG - no we do not overlay and cut in place. Most of our jobs are radiused. Now if we have a straight line, we may do that. But we may only do 2 -3 jobs a year that have straight lines.

I do not know about your market, but in our market when we got into hardscapes about 9 yrs ago it was myself and only one other contractor doing pavers. It was easy to make sales.

Now there is no way I could possibly count how many people are doing paver work. So this means we have competition so to speak.

When you are up against other contractors you can:

1. Work for almost nothing to survive
2. Recognize that its a rat race out there and that theres no way you'll ever make the money you should be getting so you sell out.
3. Enter a league of your own, focus on CRAFTSMANSHIP, make beefy bases, and all that other stuff that a homeowner that is about to spend 30 grand on for 1 patio loves to hear and SEE. Also known as: Offering something of value!

And one of aspect of our work that makes us stand out from the others is our CLEAN, PERFECT cuts and neat borders. Yes, I am a perfectionist when it come to the work we do.

I use our cutting methods in my sales presentation. I have pics of our cuts. I have pics of cuts by other local, unidentified contractors. Its in writing that I will personally inspect all the paver cuts and any pavers with flawed cuts will be removed and recut. Its just like trim or crown molding in a house. People will spend extra money to know that all the trim and molding will be mitered to percision.

In this area the hardscape market is almost as bad as the mowing market. Maybe not that dramatic, but its getting there. And how I make sales and get the money we need to DO the job and have a little left over is by going above and beyond.

cgland
10-18-2005, 10:46 PM
Andrew - We cut in place ALL of our patios/walks and if the radii are too tight then we at least score it with the saw. Makes it easier and faster to cut in. There is too much room for error when you place/cut your border first. You tend to get uneven radii and loose some smoothness to your curves. Yeah, yeah, yeah! everyone on this site is the greatest hardscaper ever with the most keen eye for detail like Mbella, but the proof is in the pudding. Lets see a couple of pics if you don't mind. I am certainly not questioning your quality or knowledge, but like I said everyone on here is the greatest.

P.S. We never cut border pavers with a handheld only the body if we can.
Chris

mbella
10-18-2005, 11:24 PM
DVS, I respect your apparent knowledge and experience with regard to hardscaping in general. However, you avoid cutting a radius in place? That is when it is most crucial.

I don't doubt the quality of your cuts. However, no other method is faster and cleaner than cutting in place, especially on a radius. I wouldn't make such a bold statement if I didn't know it to be true. Again, I don't doubt the quality of your cuts. Your last response implied that you believe cutting in place is of lesser quality than what you are doing. I couldn't disagree more.

I've posted many pics here. Most of the pics include a shot of the border. Feel free to pull one up and criticize. Sometimes, the radius is too tight for a full depth cut. In that case, we do as Chris suggested, we score the pavers in place and then perform a full depth cut on the table.

Oh yeah, I'm referring to overlaying the field pavers and cutting them with a cutoff. We always cut the border pavers with a table.

DVS Hardscaper
10-20-2005, 08:37 PM
Chris - I am confused. Not sure what you're talkin about. We cut our borders last. Never did I state differently. Sorry, just confused about what your wrote.

I have at least one border pic. I have to scan them into the puter. I do not have a digital camera. I think I still have your e-mail address. When I get some border pics scanned (which will not be anytime soon), i'll shoot 'em to you. Anyone else wanna see it, send me your e-mail address.

Mbella - not sure what you are talkin about either. When we do radisuses, we lay the field many inches past the outer perimeter. We then take restraint and trace it in the pattern of the radius to the measurements that it shall be. Its done rather efficiently. Then cut the pavers. Rather simple.

Sorry guys. You lost me.

<img src="http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/smilies/misc/gc-argue.gif">

I simply said we do not cut with a cut off saw.

I stated we do all our cutting with a tub saw, unless they are straight edges. Its my opinion that the cuts are close to perfect. they are straight, plumb, square, clean. they are not beveled and so on.

I do not work in the field. If I allow my guys to utilize a cut off saw, they will not make the cuts as perfect as I want them to be. And as I promise the client. With a table saw, it is guaranteed that the cuts will be perfect. Sure one can disagree. Keep the table clean on a tub saw, teach them how to use it, and all is swell. I have a criticle eye. I'm very picky. After making the guys go back and re-cut outer perimeters of fields, I know what works for US. There is a difference between we the owners cutting and not foremen...but laborers cutting.


never did I state any order of methods :)

mbella
10-20-2005, 09:05 PM
[QUOTE=DVS Hardscaper]CG - no we do not overlay and cut in place. Most of our jobs are radiused. Now if we have a straight line, we may do that. But we may only do 2 -3 jobs a year that have straight lines.

Apparently, you don't understand the terminology. I was referring to your statement that you don't cut in place. If you're cutting with a tub saw then you're not cutting in place.

Have you found me?

GreenMonster
10-20-2005, 09:48 PM
I've found my borders to be cleaner since I stopped individual cutting and went to the overlay and cut in place method.

I don't have a tub saw, so ALL of my cutting is done with a hand held. I've never used a table or tub, so I'm likely ignorant, but I don't see how a cut can be that much better than an experienced guy with a hand held. Easier?... sure. Quicker?..... maybe. Better?..... hmmm... tough sell here.

mbella
10-20-2005, 09:55 PM
Mark, it's not easier or quicker. In my opinion, it's wasted time.

GreenMonster
10-20-2005, 10:10 PM
Mark, it's not easier or quicker. In my opinion, it's wasted time.

;) otay buckwheat!

So, you do all your stuff with a cut-off too, Mike?

mbella
10-20-2005, 10:15 PM
No. We overlay and cut the field in place. If the radius it too tight, we overlay and score in place. Then, we perform the full depth cuts with the table saw.

We ALWAYS cut the border pavers with a table saw.


I am choosing to remain serious and will not feed into your buckwheat comment.

mbella
10-20-2005, 10:31 PM
Mark, I tried to edit that last post, but couldn't. I was kind of vague. We overlay the field and cut in place with the cutoff saw. When the radius is too tight to perform a full depth cut with cutoff saw, we score the pavers in place with the cutoff and then perform the full depth cut with the table saw.

It seems strange to me that somebody wouldn't trust an employee to make cuts with a cutoff saw, but would trust that same employee to take all of the field perimiter pavers to the saw and consistently cut on the line, to the left of the line or to the right of the line.

GreenMonster
10-20-2005, 10:49 PM
Mark, I tried to edit that last post, but couldn't. I was kind of vague. We overlay the field and cut in place with the cutoff saw. When the radius is too tight to perform a full depth cut with cutoff saw, we score the pavers in place with the cutoff and then perform the full depth cut with the table saw.

It seems strange to me that somebody wouldn't trust an employee to make cuts with a cutoff saw, but would trust that same employee to take all of the field perimiter pavers to the saw and consistently cut on the line, to the left of the line or to the right of the line.

OK Mr. Serious, why do you score with the cut-off, then cut with the table saw? Do you feel you can't achieve as good a cut with the cut-off saw? I'm trying to figure out where the need for the table saw comes in.

mbella
10-20-2005, 11:09 PM
Mark, sometimes a radius is too tight and, when performing a full depth cut, the cutoff saw blade begins to cut off of the line you have marked and into the pavers on an undesirable line.

In this case, it is possible to scratch the surface of the pavers without going off line. You simply mark the pavers and cut to an approximate depth of 1/8" with the cutoff saw. Next, you remove each paver and continue the cut, on the cut line you scored with the cutoff saw when the pavers were in place, to a full depth.

In my opinion, this method of scoring in place is better because the pavers were scored in place. When the pavers are taken to the table saw, the saw operator simply drops the blade into the groove that was scored by the cutoff saw.

With the mark in place method, the curve is marked in place. The saw operator then has to cut the line that was marked with a crayon, pencil, sharpie, etc. This method leaves room for error. What if the saw operator cuts the first paver a little to the left of the line? Then, he cuts the second paver a little to the right of the line. The third paver is cut on the line. When placed back into the field, the line will be a little jagged.

cgland
10-20-2005, 11:36 PM
Like Mike said, It is a far superior end product when you overlay and cut in place. If you have a guy that is spot on with a table saw, why not teach him how to effectively use a cutoff saw and save yourself a TON of time AND supply your customer with a superior end product. I have two guys that are whiz's with a cutoff saw and one of them is a laborer. I would trust him with cutting any one of my projects and I am the most critical person on the face of the earth. I am soooo critical that other critical people tell me I'm too critical. I belong to critical's anonymous. I also founded the "ASCP" American Society of Critical People. And so forth!

Chris

mbella
10-20-2005, 11:40 PM
I heard the ASCP's standards aren't too stringent. I also heard you could slip the founder a Franklin and gain entry, no questions asked.

cgland
10-20-2005, 11:42 PM
I'm very critical of them.

Chris

mbella
10-20-2005, 11:46 PM
If you're not too sleepy, call me. I want to apply over the phone.

DVS Hardscaper
10-21-2005, 09:24 AM
A million ways to skin a cat.

For us, we do not have a tub saw where you must pull the blade down. its stationairy.

We mark with pencil. We line up the pencil line before the water can wash it off. No problem. And all pavers are consistant. Once you know how to do it, its second nature :)

We all have our own ways. I wish I had time to visit other companies (that are not in the same geographic market) and learn other methods.


Chris - have you done any work in Bernville? Say on....Irish Creek Rd?

cgland
10-21-2005, 05:46 PM
We have done work in Bernville, but I don't believe it was Irish creek rd. Andrew, do you know this area?

Chris

GreenMonster
10-21-2005, 07:05 PM
Mark, sometimes a radius is too tight and, when performing a full depth cut, the cutoff saw blade begins to cut off of the line you have marked and into the pavers on an undesirable line.

In this case, it is possible to scratch the surface of the pavers without going off line. You simply mark the pavers and cut to an approximate depth of 1/8" with the cutoff saw. Next, you remove each paver and continue the cut, on the cut line you scored with the cutoff saw when the pavers were in place, to a full depth.

In my opinion, this method of scoring in place is better because the pavers were scored in place. When the pavers are taken to the table saw, the saw operator simply drops the blade into the groove that was scored by the cutoff saw.

With the mark in place method, the curve is marked in place. The saw operator then has to cut the line that was marked with a crayon, pencil, sharpie, etc. This method leaves room for error. What if the saw operator cuts the first paver a little to the left of the line? Then, he cuts the second paver a little to the right of the line. The third paver is cut on the line. When placed back into the field, the line will be a little jagged.

Mike, I believe there may be a little confusion here.

I agree with the cut in place, and I understand and agree about too tight a radius, and therefore scoring and removing for the final cut.

My question to you is, why not pull the scored paver out, and finish the cut with the cut-off vs. the table saw? Or are you saying that you pull the scored paver, and indeed cut it with the cut-off? :dizzy:

DVS Hardscaper
10-21-2005, 07:24 PM
Ya Chris, i know the area well. 1/2 of my relatives live in Reading. My aunt and deceased uncle used to own a farm on Irish Creek Rd, which my aunt sold the land to a builder when my uncle died.

mbella
10-21-2005, 08:16 PM
Mark, I pull the scored paver and cut it on the table. Usually, one guy marks and one guy cuts when we are cutting the border pavers.

GreenMonster
10-21-2005, 09:07 PM
Mark, I pull the scored paver and cut it on the table. Usually, one guy marks and one guy cuts when we are cutting the border pavers.

I feel like we're going in a circle here :)

what is your reasoning in bring the scored paver over to the table for the cut, vs. pulling it from the field, setting it on the ground, and finishing the cut with the hand-held?

mbella
10-21-2005, 10:02 PM
Do I have to break this down Barney style for you Mr. Monster. Just kidding.

Seriously, in my experience, once the paver is pulled from the setting bed, the table saw produces a cleaner, faster cut. When the pavers are cut in place, they don't move around. However, when the pavers are removed from the setting bed and cut with a cutoff saw, they tend to move around. Especially, if they are small pavers.

When we table cut field perimiter pavers, one guy pulls and places and the other cuts.

Btw, we park the table saw as close as possible to the where the pavers are being removed from.

etwman
10-21-2005, 10:40 PM
Okay, I'm going to have a little fun with this and throw another wrench in this post. Sorry I just can't let this alone.

Saw blades. We get 12" blades. Where to we get them. If you get any good landscape magazines you'll often see buy 12 blades and get a cut-off saw free. I now have 4 saws, all Stihl. Truthfully its the best bang for the buck, especially if you are cranking through alot of pavers. The 14" are too big to effectively cut radius, the 12" can cut a much tighter radius.

Okay. The whole table saw vs. cut off saw. Here we go. I may be right and I may be wrong but here goes, this is just my opinion. We bought an MK brick saw 2 years ago, wet table saw, you know the ones. Spent $2200 on the thing. It hasn't run since last October (it sits in the job box like some kind on antique) and we have installed I don't know how many patios..but an aweful lot. I'd literally have to beg and plead with my guys to use the thing and they are die hard perfectionists. What do they say? Don't ever...ever...not even once....take that paver to the saw. Always take the saw to the paver. I'd take any one of their cuts and put it up against someone's table saw cut. They have a system for border cuts that makes me stand in awe. Everything is cut dry and to the "T." If this move hasn't cut our time on a patio in half I would be seriously surprised. Sure we score everything like Mbella was talking about, go back and make the "million dollar cut" (that's what the guys call it). You know the 3 tank of gas cut that make you deaf and ghost white. Then they'll go back and as a team mark the border, carefully slide it out, and make the border cuts. They've got it down to a science. Oh and don't go spending money at Pave-tech and buy those guides for marking radius. C'mon guys, go to wal-mart and by a $39 tent, yank the supports out, and you got the same thing.

Okay, I had my fun, sorry just couldn't let it rest.

etwman

GreenMonster
10-21-2005, 10:48 PM
Do I have to break this down Barney style for you Mr. Monster. Just kidding.


hey man, I love you, you love me. ACtually, let's not go there again.

I'm just trying to see if someone can convince me I need to spend the ching for a tub/table saw. I'm not seeing it.

etwman
10-21-2005, 10:50 PM
Oh here's one more. They even cut all the bullnose for radius landings and pool copings with a cut off saw and I can't slide a piece of paper between the cracks. Here's one that attached that shows what i mean. I don't have that steady of a hand, and probably would wheel out the wetsaw, but they would really frown upon it.

GreenMonster
10-21-2005, 10:50 PM
Saw blades. We get 12" blades. Where to we get them. If you get any good landscape magazines you'll often see buy 12 blades and get a cut-off saw free. I now have 4 saws, all Stihl. Truthfully its the best bang for the buck, especially if you are cranking through alot of pavers. The 14" are too big to effectively cut radius, the 12" can cut a much tighter radius.

etwman

etwman,

I've been looking at the 12 blades + a saw ad on the back of hardscape mag and have been wondering if the blades are any good. If they indeed are, it sounds like a good deal. I would like a 12" saw as well, for cutting radii just as you've described.

So, these blades are ok?

mbella
10-21-2005, 10:51 PM
Etwman, what exactly are you saying? If you're saying that there is no place for the table saw, you're wrong. Taking the saw to the pavers includes taking the table saw to the cutting edge and moving it along with the cuts.

etwman
10-21-2005, 10:53 PM
Hey I'm sure there are better blades out there. One of these blades will get us through three sizable projects. They're not junk blades but when you figure how many blades your getting at what price a blades, plus your getting a new saw that's worth $1000. I'd consider it a good deal personally.

mbella
10-21-2005, 10:53 PM
Oh here's one more. They even cut all the bullnose for radius landings and pool copings with a cut off saw and I can't slide a piece of paper between the cracks. Here's one that attached that shows what i mean. I don't have that steady of a hand, and probably would wheel out the wetsaw, but they would really frown upon it.

I'd love to see some close ups of that work. From here, it doesn't even look like it comes close to the quality we produce.

etwman
10-21-2005, 10:55 PM
Okay Mike easy. There is a time and place for that table saw. I'd probably use it a little more if I were in the field alot. I'm not. When they stopped using it I paid very close attention to their work and said if you want to do it this way that's fine but I'm going to be critical. So far we haven't had any issues.

mbella
10-21-2005, 11:00 PM
Mark, you don't NEED to spend the money. You are just starting on your own and if money is an issue, you can certainly get by utilizing only a cutoff saw. If you do a lot of bullnose, like we do, it is a little tougher.

However, I would recommend adding a table saw to your arsenal. Even if it is a used table saw which you could buy for five or six hundred dollars.

Mark, nobody can produce the same quality cut on a bullnose paver with a cutoff saw as with a table saw in the same amount of time, if at all.

mbella
10-21-2005, 11:32 PM
Etwman, no need to pm me so I "drop it." Like I said, post a close up of the work in that pic you posted and let us judge for ourselves. If it's better than it appears in the pic you posted, I'll be the first to complement you.

Green-Pro
10-22-2005, 12:02 AM
Not a lot of experience here but we have been getting more & more into patios, walls, etc. So not to intrude on expert opinions I would only offer that the patio we just finished was a little over 700 sq ' only straight edges were against the structure. I bit the bullet early on in the season and ponied up $1450 for a 14" target table saw, it paid for itself easily on some of these jobs especially the last one. We have even used it for wall block (rotating the block). I can truthfully say it has been one of the better investments we have made and our only gripe, if it could be called one, is the quest to find quality blades at decent prices. Our stone supplier has suggested a cutoff saw in order to utilize the method of cutting at the bed, sounds like a good idea to me and I expect we will likely use both (seems both have their place).

Mike like you we move the saw as close as possible to the work area. As far as burning gas I opted for the electric, made a 10 gage drop cord 25' foot long and try to use an outlet as close to panel as we can, rare occurrence when it trips a breaker but it has happened.

mbella
10-22-2005, 12:06 AM
GreenPro, like I said, there is definitely a place for both. Knowing when to use which is the key. One is definitely better than the other in certain situations.

Green-Pro
10-22-2005, 12:12 AM
Mike, Well as I stated we are branching out into this, have actually picked up a fair amount of work, just seems to me as with a lot of green industry practices several methods will have merit, its up to the contractor to be able to work smarter, not harder.

etwman
10-22-2005, 11:19 AM
okay Mike here you go. Here's a couple of shots I found in the files, wet lay and dry lay. All of these were done with a cut off saw. Is the cutoff saw that much quicker than the table saw on bullnose and 6x6 border cuts...some. Is the cut off saw quicker in perimeter cuts...by far. In my opinion you've got setup, washout, and takedown with a table saw. Can the quality be the same ... yes...I think it can. It's just something that you have to be comfortable with. Is there a right way versus wrong way for those that are reading all of this....I don't think there is. If your more comfortable with a table saw...great. My guys aren't.

If you think differently that's fine.

mbella
10-22-2005, 11:51 AM
ETW, thanks for posting the pics. I've stated that I feel both types of saws should be in any hardscaper's arsenal. In my opinion, there are times when one is better suited than the other.

Honestly, in the couple of close shots you posted, I don't see the quality of workmanship that I look for.

Dreams To Designs
10-22-2005, 12:46 PM
I'd have to agree with Mike. Both saws have their place and unless you are really good with a cutoff saw, the table saw will make more precise and consistent cuts. You can create a template and cut pieces the same as your template in bulk, if needed, with the table saw.

Now I wouldn't use a wet saw if I can avoid it. All the contractors I work with own the Edco dry cut table saw, attached to a shop vac. Clean and easy cuts, and daily cleanup is a breeze. We often work when the weather is cold or wet and having a wet saw can make those days even more miserable.

Kirk

GreenMonster
10-22-2005, 05:47 PM
yeah, those bullnose that etwman posted are long. I feel fairly confident in my skill with the cut-off, but I wouldn't want to cut those with one. I can see the need for a table there.

cgland
10-23-2005, 10:57 PM
OK, OK, OK! We happen to own both types of saws and we use both of them pretty consistantly. My table saw is an MK-3 Brick Xtreme and on long cuts with a new blade I can get some cupping if you try to push it through too fast. What I'm saying is that you can get a crappy cut from either saw if you don't know what you are doing. Mike, we may differ on this one, but I don't think that ETW's cuts were that bad....I think they may have been a little tighter on a table, but they are well within the perameters of a "nice job". I've said it before, everyone thinks that they are the greatest, their work is the highest quality, and their methods are fool-proof, so I take criticism with a grain of salt especially after looking at a pic on the web. I know that pics make my cuts seem bad.........yeah! pics make them seem bad!:p
Green - I would go for the MK-3. It costs about $750 and is electric. Try it before you drop a couple grand on a gas one.

Chris

cgland
10-23-2005, 11:00 PM
Andrew - There is an R Askar in Blandon....Any relation?

Chris

DVS Hardscaper
10-23-2005, 11:05 PM
I can not believe this thread has gone to SIX pages.

I do not believe it is good businessman-ship to tell someone their quality of work is not good. Even if its the truth. I have a buddy who, if he can't say anything nice about another local contractor he'll simply say: "Everyone is entitled to make a living".

The saw blades advertised in magazines are not that good.

We use the Turbo Segmented blades. Cost $200 - $225 each, depending on qty purchased.

Lately I been seeing these blade suppliers adverstising these new blades that run "cooler". we we tried one. Worked nice. but here's the kicker: if you're running a cut off saw, you more than likely are using that saw for cutting more than just pavers. you may be using that saw for cutting out slabe of existing concrete with rebar in it, etc. So these new blades that run cooler will shatter when used for that purpose. I have found it easier to just buy a blade such as the turbo segmented blades that will cust pavers, block, concrete with rebar, steel, etc.

To qualify my credentials, we have been doing paver work for 9 years. No lawn mowing. 85% of our income is from pavers. Always has been that way since we got into pavers. And YES, a tub saw is needed. I know this is a topic where we will get many opinions. But, in my professional opinion, if one feels a tub saw IS NOT needed, they may wanna stick to mowing yards :)

Actually, in terms of dust, EDCO has something in development as we speak. We were the first to field test the concept. Was very nice. Just the problem will be the cost :(

Chris - No relation. Our family in PA is on my mom's side, so the last names are different :)

cgland
10-23-2005, 11:07 PM
Are you referring to the dust tube on the stationary saw?

Chris

mbella
10-24-2005, 07:14 AM
Actually, I was referring to the overall quality of ETW's work, not just the cuts.

If we can give an honest opinion when somebody's work looks great, why in the hell can't we give an honest opinion when it doesn't. If somebody said my work wasn't up to their level of quality, I'd ask why. Then, I'd listen and try to learn something. You know, the reason some of us are on here in the first place.

mbella
10-24-2005, 07:33 AM
Chris, I don't think our work is the "greatest" or "perfect." I am not overly proud of what we do. I think we take the time to learn as much as possible about what we are doing and in the field that translates into a nice finished product. When somebody criticizes our work, which happens, I listen. Then, I decide for my self if I agree with what that person is saying. If I agree, I change it. It happens all the time.

UNISCAPER
10-24-2005, 09:46 AM
If I'm not mistaken, the MK-3 also uses a universal mount, where you can bolt any gas powered self contained engine on top and convert to gas for the price of an engine (6.5 Honda at $500.00) and a pulley. I know Americutter can be converted, and the mounts on an old Edco we ran would also accept and electric motor.

neversatisfiedj
10-24-2005, 09:51 AM
Mike if I do say so myself - your work is prety close to perfect. Never seen a bad project posted by you.