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Woodland
10-25-2005, 10:13 AM
Next season I'd like to start offering a more defined organic lawn care program. This year I've tried to steer my customers in that direction but without a whole lot of materials to back up the push. I plan to spend the winter season researching and getting some stuff together. In the meantime I have a few questions.

1. There is a lot of material, printed and online, about Milorganite, including a lenghty thread on this site. My old employer used the stuff quite often as did I. My local turf supplier, however, does not carry Milorganite but rather a product called Baystate Organic Fertilizer. It is the same type of product - made from biosolids, but does not have nearly the research paper trail that Milorganite does. Knowing the controvery or concerns that have surrounded Milorganite, I am a little concerned that this Baystate might not be as "safe". Does anyone else use this Baystate product that could offers some insight or know of more research that is available for it?

2. There was another post in this forum concerning starting an organic program in which nocutting replied "you need a program that matchs the chemicals guys program, app for app" From my limited experience in OG this summer, I can certainly see the importance of this. I had two customers that cringed when I told them that they wouldn't see an immediate response to the organic fert. Add that to the fact that it is more expensive, they aren't really listening when you get to the "better in the long run" part of the pitch! Has anyone tried spiking their organic apps with a high nitrogen source such as urea or bloodmeal to give the customer a more immediate green up? I realize that as the program progresses, this shouldn't be necessary because the lawn will never have a down period from lack of fert. I am thinking about on the first few apps.

3. Any suggestion on books to read this winter? I have a copy of Paul Sachs book which is excellent but tends more towards general theory than practical application.

NattyLawn
10-25-2005, 10:12 PM
I didn't find much on Baystate via the web, except it looks like its made by the MWRA. If you want organic ferts with a little kick, take a look at http://www.nutrientsplus.com. The 7-2-12 and 16-2-3 might be good starting ferts, as they have added urea.
I would just go organic if that's the route you plan to go. You sell safety (environmental and familial), and the in the long run organics will save them money, as they won't need as many apps as often.

quiet
10-25-2005, 11:23 PM
Considering a "bridge" program to start off new accounts? Many, if not all, fertilizer manufacturers sell a few blends that contain a percentage of biosolids. There are some outstanding products out there that give excellent results, but now you're getting into the "greens grade/golf course quality" category. Top shelf fertilizers - with prices to match! A good example is Lesco's Novex. It is an excellent fertilizer with 30% biosolids. It is expensive but gives excellent results. A bad example is Lesco's 15-3-7: 50% biosolids, SCU and MOP. Again, pricey but you see results.

You may also wish to talk to a distributor in your area. They work with custom blenders that can blend any combination you wish, though you may run into prohibitive minimum qtys required; 2 tons or even 6 tons. But custom blenders will mix you a "dream blend analysis" of whatever you desire.

But your checkbook - and your ability to make a good margin in a highly competitive market - may be the most limiting factors here.

Do more searches. Know the turfgrasses and soils for your area. Fertilizing is a fascinating and highly complex subject. There are a lot of good things to be gleaned from this forum as well as the Fertilizer and Pesticide forum here.

AlpineNaturescapes
10-26-2005, 02:39 AM
"A bad example is Lesco's 15-3-7: 50% biosolids, SCU and MOP. Again, pricey but you see results."

Is this a bad example because of the MOP? I would think 50% biosolids and the rest SCU is a good example of bridge fert. I might look into it for next fall.

jimmdenver
10-27-2005, 02:01 AM
My hat off to you woodland! I don't know much about organic myself, but I admire your efforts to keep our planet clean!

dishboy
10-28-2005, 11:23 PM
Miorganite is around 7% N if my memory serves me correct. IMO you can get plenty enough go with this number without subsidising syn. N especially if you bump the fall rate .

I see turf response using organic materials in two to three weeks, planning for this is no problem IMO. I would save any syn N applications for when soil temps drop below 50 degrees for cool season turf.

nocutting
10-31-2005, 06:07 PM
Next season I'd like to start offering a more defined organic lawn care program. This year I've tried to steer my customers in that direction but without a whole lot of materials to back up the push. I plan to spend the winter season researching and getting some stuff together. In the meantime I have a few questions.

1. There is a lot of material, printed and online, about Milorganite, including a lenghty thread on this site. My old employer used the stuff quite often as did I. My local turf supplier, however, does not carry Milorganite but rather a product called Baystate Organic Fertilizer. It is the same type of product - made from biosolids, but does not have nearly the research paper trail that Milorganite does. Knowing the controvery or concerns that have surrounded Milorganite, I am a little concerned that this Baystate might not be as "safe". Does anyone else use this Baystate product that could offers some insight or know of more research that is available for it?

2. There was another post in this forum concerning starting an organic program in which nocutting replied "you need a program that matchs the chemicals guys program, app for app" From my limited experience in OG this summer, I can certainly see the importance of this. I had two customers that cringed when I told them that they wouldn't see an immediate response to the organic fert. Add that to the fact that it is more expensive, they aren't really listening when you get to the "better in the long run" part of the pitch! Has anyone tried spiking their organic apps with a high nitrogen source such as urea or bloodmeal to give the customer a more immediate green up? I realize that as the program progresses, this shouldn't be necessary because the lawn will never have a down period from lack of fert. I am thinking about on the first few apps.

3. Any suggestion on books to read this winter? I have a copy of Paul Sachs book which is excellent but tends more towards general theory than practical application.
#1, both the same product, but you may note that the Micros may differ as its from a different region [ as states are becomeing more aware, some are retailing / wholesalein out there sh_t] NY for instance has a 24-7 plant that makes bio-solids fert in the Bronx, all that wonderful fert goes to Florida by the train load to feed the citrus trees [ sheds a whole new light on fresh squeezed, doesnt it?]...........................................................................#2,Urea, as commonly found is not really organic[ urea and bio-solids have never been approved by any Organic Horticultural group or any organic food producers, for use in a "Organic Lawn / Landscape Program"].....but with alittle research "Knocking it up" as you say?.......how about iron, epsom salts or chealean nitrate? [ to speed that deep dark green we all love so much?]....if its color your after, itstead of giveing it a quick fix like our chemical competion, look for improved turf varieties?[ seems logical doesent it]...Not as fast?.....More expensive?......"These are words from somebody that needs to do more research".....sure if you buy everything with a "Brand -Name", you're gonna pay more for it!!!!!!..................................................#3.....Book names?...ahhhhh old age has set in and the mind is alittle weak?....But I'm sure somebody in the "Organic Forum" will come to my rescue?.....Good Luck and:bday: lol,lol,lol.::cool2: :alien: :rolleyes:

NattyLawn
10-31-2005, 07:05 PM
Sorry, didn't get a chance to edit my post, as the little bit of urea in the Nutrients Plus ferts means they aren't organic...We used iron in the spring to green up some lawns as well....

Woodland
11-03-2005, 10:02 PM
urea and bio-solids have never been approved by any Organic Horticultural group or any organic food producers, for use in a "Organic Lawn / Landscape Program"

I'm not really concerned with what "they" deem to be organic. The way I see it, we produce alot of biosolids and need to find something to do with it. Obviously you need to treat that with chemicals to eliminate pathogens, etc. but whether it gets turned into compost/fertilizer or not, those chemicals will still be used so why not find a consistant use for the end product. (I will admit that I do not use any biosolids products in my vegetable garden and I don't disuade my customers from skipping that as well. This is in spite of knowing that composted biosolid products harbor less pathogens than most other animal manures.)

As far as urea is concerned, I'm not sure what it is or why it isn't "organic", but there are other alternative, as you mentioned (epsom salts or chealean nitrate).


to speed that deep dark green we all love so much?]....if its color your after, itstead of giveing it a quick fix like our chemical competion, look for improved turf varieties?

That color that I'm after, is a first year fix. Lets face it, up front costs for organic are more than traditional chemical applications. I can buy a balanced turf fertilizer from my wholesaler for $5 or $6 while an equivilant organic fert is nearly $10 per bag. Plus the effects are not as noticable as quickly. My problem or concern is in convincing a customer that more money upfront will be worth it in the long run. My thought is, and maybe I'm wrong, if I can show them a green, lush lawn like they are used to seeing after a chemical fertilizer application, I can more easilly persuade them to give organic a try. Once the program is in place and the lawn begins to respond to the organic benefits, I can eliminate the "chemical boost" and they will be none the wiser.

nocutting
11-04-2005, 12:50 AM
Hi Kevin, just wanted to keep you above board if possible?.....sure you can be an "Organic Based or Organic Approach" Company if you choose, than you can use anything you want? and for as long as you want?lol,lol,lol,.....Good Luck in your endeverors:waving: :alien:

Woodland
11-04-2005, 08:21 PM
I'm not sure I understand your comments above?

nocutting
11-16-2005, 12:09 AM
Organic approach or Based, is like an oxymoron.....sounds like your getting Organic, but possibly you just tout those words to get more bizness, dont really worry about the harmful effects of all the chemicals in our enviroment?, Maybe you choose just to do Organic Cultural Practices?....Thats why its Great to have "Watch-Dog Groups who monitor what is really organic".........sure you dont use Bio-solids on your vegtable garden, then why for Gods Sake would you want anybodies Children or pets playin in that stuff?.......isnt it enough that its used to feed fields, not for food consumption, but for forage?.....if you read more posts in the organic forum, you'll find many cost savein factors on cost cutting products to use as fertilizer.........sure since none of them are labled as fertilizer, guess you're gonna have ta break down and learn to calibrate your equipment to be able to use them.......Just wonderin what you're buyin that only costs 5-6 dollars a bag? [ must be the cheapest, most ground water polluting chemical fertilizer on this earth]..............well I hope maybe I shed some light on my last post?- regards Saxon

NattyLawn
11-16-2005, 06:55 PM
I like how nocutting has been made the defacto moderator of the organic forum, yet his posts are very one sided...It's either his way, or your wrong...

DUSTYCEDAR
11-16-2005, 07:24 PM
i have seen many snake oil salesmen trying to sell organic this and that
it isnt easy to make a buck in this biz and with the amount of people calming to be organic and applying who knows what its not easy
good luck with your biz plan and dont get discouraged with all the naysayers

nocutting
11-16-2005, 09:35 PM
I like how nocutting has been made the defacto moderator of the organic forum, yet his posts are very one sided...It's either his way, or your wrong...
Listen Matt, we all develop reputations, mine is very sound in my area & in my area of expertise. Do I go along with all the thoughts of the watch-dog groups-Nooooooooooooooooo Siry Bob, do I believe Bio Solids have a place in Organic Lawn & Landscape care-Sure Do.....are all bio-solids created equal- not on your life?....But those sold as fertilizer have been heat treated and sanitized, not like those avalible to farmers and are used in crop production.......The thing is, if you're gonna make a choice of goin organic as opposed to just being another nameless enviromental polluter [ on a large scale, a commerical applicater].....and with research, equal products are avalible, why not let the consumer make the choice?....You guys act like Organics is something New?.....Way before My time, organics were the only choice to the farming industry..........Each season, I take a stand for Organics, sign a lengthly contract to use only approved materials, [ approved by the Watch-dog Groups],.......open my facility and my record keeping to the Organic Inspectors,....I research, and provide my data to other guys that want to take the Step from chemicals to Organics........Am I a Rich?, maybe not in dollars and cents, but at least I can Sleep at nite...........and if I was doing something wrong here on Lawnsite, I'm sure the Moderater would give me a swift kick in the arse, just ta set me stright? Regards to all-Saxon:waving:

NattyLawn
11-17-2005, 12:04 AM
I guess I'll stay out of the kitchen then...

Bluefin
11-19-2005, 10:20 AM
All the points brought up in this thread are valid and right on. However, to move into an organic form of management right away is a very bad move bound to result in much lower turf qualities and very pissed off people. I am a retired professor of turfgrass management from the Univ. of Mass. and have had a lot of experience with golf courses trying to move organically too quickly.....bad results, hurt feelings, lost jobs. It has been shown over and over again that a gradual move into organic is the only way to go. For instance, over a three year period go 25%, 50% then 75% and evaluate from there. More than likely, you will be able to go 100% with very high turf qualities, much lower disease/insect problems and very little weed problems. Fertility, at that point, could be reduced by as much as 50% due to the increased levels of organic mineralization due to the way you had build up the soil microbial populations and activities. There is nothing at all wrong with an "organic based" program, in fact, it is necessary.

Bluefin
11-19-2005, 10:22 AM
All the points brought up in this thread are valid and right on. However, to move into an organic form of management right away is a very bad move bound to result in much lower turf qualities and very pissed off people. I am a retired professor of turfgrass management from the Univ. of Mass. and have had a lot of experience with golf courses trying to move organically too quickly.....bad results, hurt feelings, lost jobs. It has been shown over and over again that a gradual move into organic is the only way to go. For instance, over a three year period go 25%, 50% then 75% and evaluate from there. More than likely, you will be able to go 100% with very high turf qualities, much lower disease/insect problems and very little weed problems. Fertility, at that point, could be reduced by as much as 50% due to the increased levels of organic mineralization due to the way you had build up the soil microbial populations and activities. There is nothing at all wrong with an "organic based" program, in fact, it is necessary.

Az Gardener
11-19-2005, 11:00 AM
You are just the guy I would like to talk to :blob3: . I don't know if this forum is the place to do it but here goes. I have been using fertilizer injectors for years because of a "biological product" that seems to do wonders in our alkaline,caliche hard soils. There has recently come along another company with a very similar product. One claims their product is anaerobic (Fertile Earth) and the other is aerobic (Biofeed) as I have learned over time these are both bridge products. I would like an educated, unbiased opinion of these products if you wouldn't mind reading a little propaganda, I mean advertising. The web sites are www.biofeed.us.com and www.fertileearth.com I would really value your opinion.

Bluefin
11-19-2005, 12:40 PM
AZ,

I went to both sites. One comes up a poker site, the other the supplier you listed. First, there is no such thing as "anaerobic" organics/biologicals. If you need something that works anaerobically....you have very bad oxygen depleted soils and an amendment is not going to work for you any time soon. The other site had a material listed as a biostimulant. I went through the information and, like so many of these companies, they really do not provide a complete analysis. These "biostimulants" are, for the most part, just micronutrient fertilizers, usually liquids that are unbelievably over priced. To make a long story short, using a high nitrogen natural organic fertilizer will do everything you need with regard to increasing soil structure, aeration, infiltration etc. Frank Rossi at Cornell is in the middle of a three year study on foliars and after two years finds no significant differences compared to standard organic fertilizers. Your big problem is that there are no high nitrogen "sprayable" or "injectable" organics. You will be very surprised this year with a new granular-soluble natural organic at 15% N and lowest C/N ratio in the industry. The price should be right as well. I am working with a very large midwestern company in the development of these materials and they are going outside for testing right now at several Universities and high profile golf courses.
Recommendation: Stay away from "biostimulants". High priced waste of money. If you want to add molasses and other carbohydrates...buy them yourself for pennies on the dollar. Don't use too much carbohydrate without a concommittant application of N or you will push the soil C/N ratio too high.

Hope this helps.

dishboy
11-20-2005, 03:34 PM
All the points brought up in this thread are valid and right on. However, to move into an organic form of management right away is a very bad move bound to result in much lower turf qualities and very pissed off people. I am a retired professor of turfgrass management from the Univ. of Mass. and have had a lot of experience with golf courses trying to move organically too quickly.....bad results, hurt feelings, lost jobs. It has been shown over and over again that a gradual move into organic is the only way to go. For instance, over a three year period go 25%, 50% then 75% and evaluate from there. More than likely, you will be able to go 100% with very high turf qualities, much lower disease/insect problems and very little weed problems. Fertility, at that point, could be reduced by as much as 50% due to the increased levels of organic mineralization due to the way you had build up the soil microbial populations and activities. There is nothing at all wrong with an "organic based" program, in fact, it is necessary.

I can not agree with these statements. Turfgrass response to Organics is dependent upon many factors like PH etc. and will have varied results depending upon local soil conditions.

I switched to Organics cold turkey along with mulch mowing and have had great results with a first year improvement in 100% of property's and have not regretted or looked back since. For my lawns in my area turf seems to react favorbly in short order.

Bluefin
11-20-2005, 05:08 PM
Wow! 100% organic on all accounts and not a hint of trouble from the start? Either you must be blessed or live at a cool, high elevation. At any rate....good for you but I bet the majority have had different results. My goal is to get golf courses and other turf areas to 100% organic. A big goal, particularly with golf courses. Try my website: www.proturfconsulting.com and you will get an idea of my background and philosophy.

nocutting
11-21-2005, 12:17 AM
Wow! 100% organic on all accounts and not a hint of trouble from the start? Either you must be blessed or live at a cool, high elevation. At any rate....good for you but I bet the majority have had different results. My goal is to get golf courses and other turf areas to 100% organic. A big goal, particularly with golf courses. Try my website: www.proturfconsulting.com and you will get an idea of my background and philosophy.
Hello Doc, most of us truely Organic Guys, go 100% organic to start......I dropped my pesticide certification when I started my company......Everything isnt all Roses the 1st season, but is it useing chemicals? I know it isnt as there wouldnt be so many different chemical fertilizers or different pesticides. With that point made, I think we're on equal footing.....Regarding Organic Golf Courses, you may look up Skip Wade, hes a retired Golf Course Supt. of the Cherry Valley Club in Garden City,NY[ The 1st Organic Club in our state]....he now has his own biz that helps convert Long Island clubs to Organic ones. In fact he specializes in the design end, as all new clubs in Suffolk County are required to be organic from the start.....If you contact "The Neighborhood Network" in Farmingdale,NY [ a watch-Dog Group] Beth would be more than Happy to help you guys connect.........Wecome to Lawnsite......:waving:

Bluefin
11-21-2005, 08:53 AM
Nocutting,

I'm sorry if my last was taken as judgemental. Far be it. I would prefer everyone go 100% organic right at the start but there have been far too many problems, particularly with disease to allow for the expected level of turf quality. Frank Rossi from Cornell did a 3-year study at the Black course at Beth Page that pretty much proved the point that a "breaking in" period is needed and that although we can get to a high percentage of organic.....100% on golf courses is a tough challenge to keep expected quality and your job. Hot, humid areas are particularly toublesome.

DUSTYCEDAR
11-22-2005, 07:45 PM
IT SEEMS THAT there r a lot of views on this topic

nocutting
11-23-2005, 01:23 PM
Nocutting,

I'm sorry if my last was taken as judgemental. Far be it. I would prefer everyone go 100% organic right at the start but there have been far too many problems, particularly with disease to allow for the expected level of turf quality. Frank Rossi from Cornell did a 3-year study at the Black course at Beth Page that pretty much proved the point that a "breaking in" period is needed and that although we can get to a high percentage of organic.....100% on golf courses is a tough challenge to keep expected quality and your job. Hot, humid areas are particularly toublesome.
Hello again, golf courses are totally different from residential properties, thats for sure............But residentials are an easier transition, sure we get a small amount of disease, but can usally short mow it, & than grow it out [ cultural practices]........To this day I've never needed the aide of a commercial fungicde.........have never had a lawn become a disaster..........I remember when I 1st started.....worried about grubs?.....bought a bag of "Grub Control"........today it still sits on my shelf, over 10 yrs later.....its like a "Monument To Success".........I'm so proud to show it off when anybody comes by.....its dated..... so you know its old..................:cool2:

Bluefin
11-23-2005, 04:24 PM
Nocutting:

I am quite impressed with your operation. It is success stories such as yours that are needed to move more businesses into the organic mode. It's coming fast so sooner or later most businesses will have to have a percentage organic or be left in the dust. You are right about golf courses....different animal with much lower mowing heights equalling much more inherent stress and subsequent pest activities. Same thing with sports turf....lots of compaction, tearing apart and open areas to contend with.

I would appreciate more "hand holding" from guys like you with regard to home lawn/lawn care organic programs. I could learn a lot which could be utilized in my consulting business and may even transfer over into other turf situations.

Looking forward to some "schooling"!!

Bill

nocutting
11-24-2005, 01:57 AM
Nocutting:

I am quite impressed with your operation. It is success stories such as yours that are needed to move more businesses into the organic mode. It's coming fast so sooner or later most businesses will have to have a percentage organic or be left in the dust. You are right about golf courses....different animal with much lower mowing heights equalling much more inherent stress and subsequent pest activities. Same thing with sports turf....lots of compaction, tearing apart and open areas to contend with.

I would appreciate more "hand holding" from guys like you with regard to home lawn/lawn care organic programs. I could learn a lot which could be utilized in my consulting business and may even transfer over into other turf situations.

Looking forward to some "schooling"!!

Bill
Hi Bill, ....I currantly produce a line of commercial quality compost teas, to be introed in March/2006......they will be used on a local University's sports fields [ think a minor league team plays there?].....I've also done test plots at a Botanicl Gardens in my area [ for public display].........there have been a few Golf Course Disasters in my area from Superintendents that took organic materials at face value.......there was a guy that tried to use chealian nitrate like stright urea.........the problem is the nitrate has such a high salt content he burned his greens rite up:dizzy: ........a few hit and miss's like that is enough to po po organics:cry: ........I believe there is a group in your area called the Ecological Landscape Association, worth looking into, they in turn can guide you to another group called "Golf".............Good Luck, and Happy Hoilidays:waving:

nocutting
11-24-2005, 01:31 PM
Nocutting,

I'm sorry if my last was taken as judgemental. Far be it. I would prefer everyone go 100% organic right at the start but there have been far too many problems, particularly with disease to allow for the expected level of turf quality. Frank Rossi from Cornell did a 3-year study at the Black course at Beth Page that pretty much proved the point that a "breaking in" period is needed and that although we can get to a high percentage of organic.....100% on golf courses is a tough challenge to keep expected quality and your job. Hot, humid areas are particularly toublesome.
Bill, think about this.............instead of haveing some guys with years of experance with organics be part of the test...........it literally was conducted , again hit or miss, by someone who has little or no actual field experance with organics?..........Sure Frank has Great Credentials, but its pretty ironic that when I started, "Cornell" would advise people / the general public that all that was needed were 2-3 organic applications a season- yet at the same time, the chemical program consisted of a very ridgid sequance of 5-fertilizations, 2- pre-emergents, 2- grub controls,1-2 apps for surface insects, lime application,core-aeration, power de-thatching,seeding.............Again I think its ironic that "Golf Courses" with a tremendous budget, generally use the cheapest organic fertilizers avalible, bio-solids, and bridge w/ bio-solids?..........whats wrong with this picture Bill?:blush:

DUSTYCEDAR
11-24-2005, 01:46 PM
I currantly produce a line of commercial quality compost teas, to be introed in March/2006
i would like more info on this and how ofton u apply it

Bluefin
11-24-2005, 06:19 PM
Nocutting,

I fully agree, University extension has been, and I feel, continues to be far behind the organic curve with response to what is available with regard to both technology and materials. However, the current pressure from the general public is finally making the GCSAA, USGA etc. take organics seriously. C-5 Crop Science Division is even sponsoring a "general committee" to define organic management for golf. I'd like to see what they come up with since I don't think anyone can fully define the term "organic". The Universities are starting to get the necessary levels of funding from the right sources to begin to evaluate the very programs which you and many others have been pioneering. One thing that has turned off many, many supers is the explosion of snake oil salesman/companies/products out there that claim to do everything but bring back dead turf. Another thing that is different is that if they screw up....they lose their job. If you or another lawn company screws up...you just lose a client or two and move on and learn from the mistake. The mowing heights, compaction levels, and general cultural intensity are much more on a golf course making most supers very suspicious and disbelieving that organic management can bring them to a better place. Thats why bridge products exist. Once the professional people finally get it...they will begin to utilize the products that really do the job.

I cannot talk much about it but I am currently working with a very large mid-western client developing a number of very unique organic fertilizers...100% organic with N levels ranging from 10 to 15%. Two are granulars that are completely soluble. Testing is going on right now and these products should be out on the marke next year. They will definitely revolutionize organic fertility.

Sorry for getting on the soap box.

Bill

nocutting
12-15-2005, 09:27 PM
Nocutting,

I fully agree, University extension has been, and I feel, continues to be far behind the organic curve with response to what is available with regard to both technology and materials. However, the current pressure from the general public is finally making the GCSAA, USGA etc. take organics seriously. C-5 Crop Science Division is even sponsoring a "general committee" to define organic management for golf. I'd like to see what they come up with since I don't think anyone can fully define the term "organic". The Universities are starting to get the necessary levels of funding from the right sources to begin to evaluate the very programs which you and many others have been pioneering. One thing that has turned off many, many supers is the explosion of snake oil salesman/companies/products out there that claim to do everything but bring back dead turf. Another thing that is different is that if they screw up....they lose their job. If you or another lawn company screws up...you just lose a client or two and move on and learn from the mistake. The mowing heights, compaction levels, and general cultural intensity are much more on a golf course making most supers very suspicious and disbelieving that organic management can bring them to a better place. Thats why bridge products exist. Once the professional people finally get it...they will begin to utilize the products that really do the job.

I cannot talk much about it but I am currently working with a very large mid-western client developing a number of very unique organic fertilizers...100% organic with N levels ranging from 10 to 15%. Two are granulars that are completely soluble. Testing is going on right now and these products should be out on the marke next year. They will definitely revolutionize organic fertility.

Sorry for getting on the soap box.

Bill
Just wonderin?- Saxon:waving:

BRANDMEL
12-22-2005, 08:44 PM
Hey nocutting, just thought I would drop in and say hi! It sounds like your still the master:alien: I haven't visited lawnsite for awhile and it was good to see the word "potato" Keep up the good work!:waving:

nocutting
12-23-2005, 05:13 AM
Hey nocutting, just thought I would drop in and say hi! It sounds like your still the master:alien: I haven't visited lawnsite for awhile and it was good to see the word "potato" Keep up the good work!:waving:
Hi Brandon, where does the time go?.........Hope I get some "Spud juice for Christmas"............Will that stuff flow outa a Permagreen? or do I need a larger tank and a larger nozzel?......just invested in a 1000 gal.skid with paddle agitation to handle the teas better, and tryin some pretty nice Ride -Ons for lawn care........Dont be a Stranger, "Heee Haw & Merry Christmas":alien: payup ,Saxon

muddstopper
01-01-2006, 10:49 PM
One of the reasons that switching from chemical to organics cold turkey has so may problems is the lack of soil humis. Simply feeding the soil a diet of organic material does not make humis overnite. The microb flora needs the humis to survive. The presence of stable humus allows air, water and essential mineral nutrients to be held in the aggregates. The chemical nutrients are in the form of ions-atoms carring positive or negative electrical charges. Consequently, we can imagine that a loss of this porosity with all its inner surfaces represents a catastrophe to the soil. With the loss of stable humus, the mineral particles of the soil come together almost like concrete. The porosity is lost and with it the ability of the soil to retain air, water and nutrients.

Good soil consists of 93% mineral and 7% bio organic substances. The bio organic parts are 85% humus,10% roots, and 5% edaphon. ∑ The Edaphon consists of:
∑ fungi/algae .........................40%
∑ bacteria/actinomycetes.....40%
∑ Earthworms.........................12%
∑ Macrofauna........................ 5%
∑ micro/mesofauna............... 3%
to restore all these parts of humis cold turkey involves more than just spraying a tea or adding compost to the soil, or adding biosolids. It is impossible for man to produce stable humus synthetically. Man can properly cultivate the field, supply organic matter and so encourage the development of stable humus in the soil. Soil with stable humus must always be protected to maintain the fertility and productivity of the soil.

Yard
02-14-2006, 12:03 PM
Just a quick comment on Milogranite and other biosolid fertilizers - There may not be any living pathogens left, but don't forget about the heavy metals. They may be below EPA safe maximum limits (if you even trust in that), but every time you apply them you're adding more heavy metals which persist in the soil and don't break down.

The Cowboy
02-14-2006, 09:07 PM
The right pH and plenty of humus limits the uptake of those heavy metals to an extent. I would still be on the safe side and not use them for crops.
One problem with using heavy metal laden materials on turf is : what if the homeowner decides to plow up the yard and grow veggies? With the rising fuel costs and food costs, urban agriculture is going to become a major player in the future; it would be a mistake to pollute the soil beforehand.