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View Full Version : Does anyone do "dormant seeding"


Pilgrims' Pride
10-31-2005, 07:25 AM
What experiences have you had with dormant seeding?
I've read that it is done often on athletice fields.
What kind of results should I expect?
Any thoughts?

bobbygedd
10-31-2005, 03:47 PM
waste of time

TURFLORD
10-31-2005, 04:06 PM
Erosion,snow mold,animal foraging. Just wait for Springtime.

TforTexas
10-31-2005, 04:11 PM
People do alot of winter overseeding here in Austin. As the Bermuda goes dormant they scalp it down and overseed perrenial rye to stay green and growing over the winter months. The customers appreciate the green turf year round and the LCO's love extending thier mowing season year round.
Don't ask me why but this is Huge here in Austin and nowhere else I've heard of, other than athletic fields Come spring the hot weather burns out the rye and the bermuda zoysia or St Augustine kick back in. Some spray the rye out with revolver. I will sell 250,000 dollars worth of periennial rye this quarter and no other stores around here, Houston Dallas or San Antonio will sell even 1/4 that much.

BSDeality
10-31-2005, 06:54 PM
waste of time riiiight. 'just cause i don't like relish on my hot dogs doesn't mean its bad.

Dormant seeding is mother natures slit-seeding. one downside is that you can't apply herbicides right away in the spring, but then again you can't do it with regular seeding either.

SodKing
10-31-2005, 07:18 PM
I agree, its done all the time. My 99 year old granmother used to tell me she would go spread the seed on top of the snow. That way when it melted, it would work its way into the soil.

In MA you should be able to seed into the first week of Novemmber and still obtain a minor amount of germination and growth. The rest willl germinate in the spring.

Runner
10-31-2005, 07:51 PM
We do it all the time and have great success. We are getting ready to install about an acre's worth of grass here in just a few weeks. We can't do it right now, because we might get some germination and we definitely don't want that at this time. The benefit of dormant seeding is that it can be done when everything is still dry and is easier to work with. This way, when the ground thaws, reach the right temperatures, and everything is still real wet, the seed is already down mixed in, and ready to go. We are then ready for a good spring growth, Even though the optimum time is in early fall, sometimes as other projects are completed or need to be completed, this timing doesn't always work out. That is why the seed has to go down when it can. So often, in the spring, things are just too wet to get on or to work with.
As far as someone saying it is a waste of time,..I have NO idea where that philosophy is coming from.

BSDeality
10-31-2005, 07:58 PM
As far as someone saying it is a waste of time,..I have NO idea where that philosophy is coming from. I have an idea... its called lack of professional education. "waste of time" is what all the other guys around him call it, so thats what he believes.

LonniesLawns
11-01-2005, 01:37 PM
Dormant seeding is the SECOND best time to seed. It about 30 steps under Early fall -- but still 30 steps above spring.

Look around at some studies done at Purdue. A lawn dormant seeded at Thankgiving does MUCH better than alawn seeded in Early march.

I up my seed by about 20% to account for loss due to environmental factors.

Natural Impressions
11-01-2005, 06:52 PM
I will be dormant seeding this year. Should i remove the thatch before or just wait for the spring?

bobbygedd
11-01-2005, 10:44 PM
I have an idea... its called lack of professional education. "waste of time" is what all the other guys around him call it, so thats what he believes.
duh, i didn't start doin this yesterday. go ahead, sprinkle your seed on top of the snow, and enjoy your crabgrass too

muddstopper
11-02-2005, 12:24 AM
Bobby, you are the only one I know that has to have perfect conditions to get grass to grow. Maybe you will have better luck with the hotdog stand.

Runner
11-02-2005, 03:25 AM
I will be dormant seeding this year. Should i remove the thatch before or just wait for the spring?
If you have a thatch buildup, remove it now - not in the spring.

TURFLORD
11-02-2005, 07:01 AM
I have an idea... its called lack of professional education. "waste of time" is what all the other guys around him call it, so thats what he believes.
This post is just asking for it. OMG he had to go to college to learn how to run a slicer and when. So you graduated this year and you've been in the business for 4 years. Go back to the golf course where your daddy got that job for you. I've been doing this since before your daddy even knocked up your mommy. Out in the world beyond the shelter of the dorm and daddy's check book things are done differently, especially residential. There's an old adage...If it aint broke don't fix it. In my last post I forgot to mention temp flux in the spring and mechanical injury. Did they teach you what that is ? Mechanical injury is the heating oil guy spilling juice all over the lawn, oops, or the appliance delivery guys driving over the lawn to get to the door. If the seed isn't going to germinate til the spring, why plant now and accept all these risks. Plant in the Spring and GUARANTEE your results. College might help you memorize the raster patterns of grub larvae, but it won't help you know how,when,why, or what kind of control products to use.:p

bobbygedd
11-02-2005, 07:46 AM
no, not perfect conditions, but, i refuse to create a potential bull**** scenerio where, "bob, you seeded, and it came in patchy, i want you to reseed...etc." cus then i tell them sure, but i need to charge, and then the argument starts. ok, step by step, what kind of seed are you putting down, when are you doing it, and when do you expect germination? "dormant" seeding, means there is no chance of germination till next season. so, you use our traditional rye/fescue/kbg mix. you plant it in late november. in late march, MAYBE it's warm enough to hatch. the seed hatches around march 24th. by april 15th, you best get your dimension down, or you can play with the crabgrass all summer long. so, you are now dumping herbicide on a grass plant that is 3 weeks old. that's good? not to mention......spring cleanup- being trampled at the tender young age of 2 weeks, etc. tell you what, when you have some topsoil left over this november, take it, make a bed 5x5, and seed around the last week of november. run a mower over it, walk on it, an run a blower over it in late march (simulating spring cleanup) , then apply dimension around april 15th. let me know what this 5x5 patch looks like on augest 1st. better yet, i got some topsoil on the truck right now. i'll do it. i'll take pics, and post them, ok? i'll bet my last bottle of grolsh, that the area needs reseeding in fall of 2006. why not just do it THE RIGHT WAY? the problem is, you are afraid to tell your clients NO, I WON'T DO IT. i've done "dormant " seeding, it's bullcrap

BSDeality
11-02-2005, 10:17 AM
dormant seeding isn't meant to be used to bring in a lawn from topsoil, its supposed to be used as a form of overseeding. I do not sell it as a way to bring in a lawn, i sell it as another way to overseed. I tell them flat out that there is a significant chance of die-off, and that they will not be able to use control products in the spring for 4-6 weeks. They know this upfront.

Turfsith, I do not claim to know everything, however I learned a lot in college about turf, soil, weather, plants, and yes, even mechanical injury and how they're all connected. Do you honestly think one of the top agriculture and horticultural schools in the nation would just skip the lesson on working around people. The golf course specific related courses deal with that primarily.

I'd also like to know how somone driving over the lawn is going to kill off dormant seeds, The problem is most people dormant seed too early. spilling toxis oil on the lawn is a whole other issue.

Daddy got me a job? wtf, he's in the computer industry, go pound sand. Daddys check book? excuse me? I don't get anything for free. Just because you were too dumb to put yourself through some educational classes and give yourself the professional edge doesn't give you any reason to knock it. When i approach customers and explain to them the process for something and the real reasons behind it they say "oh, i never knew that" or "my old guy never did that..." When I casually toss in the college degree specializing in turf and horticulture I get yet another bonus point with them.

bobbygedd
11-02-2005, 11:40 AM
if you are educated, then please try and understand what i wrote. the new/tender grass plants, will be trampled with mower/feet/blower during spring cleanup. furthermore, i lost all faith in college educated grassboys, when i brought my samples in for diagnosis, and i got, by far, the most unusual diagnosis that was 99.999% WRONG. going to college to be a grassboy, is about as crazy as going to college to be a garbage man. and again, tell me what effect dimension will have on the newly hatched grass plants. "When I casually toss in the college degree specializing in turf and horticulture I get yet another bonus point with them." yup, and u get the same $30 bucks, and all the bullsh!t they can dish out, as i do, with my 10th grade education
__________________

TURFLORD
11-02-2005, 04:57 PM
Duu-huhh. I'm doopid. I don't got me no hiyer edumakatin. What was your degree in sales and marketing( also known as Bullsh!t artist ). Mother Nature is the consumate "dormant overseeder", but there is a catch. It safe to say not everything coming into life on this planet will reach maturity. So it's safe to say all seeds produced by plants will not survive through to Spring. So lets now go BS the customer. Hello Mrs. Jones. Give me so much $ now to put down seed and mabye 60% will last to Spring because I WENT TO COLLEGE and it's the right thing to do BECAUSE I'M EDUCATED. Whereas I'll do it in the Spring and fix those ruts from the plow truck while I'm there and it will ALL grow and she'll happily pay me. I feel a disturbance in the force. Yes, a vergence. I believe it's called DO THE JOB RIGHT THE FIRST TIME.

muddstopper
11-02-2005, 05:41 PM
no, not perfect conditions, but, i refuse to create a potential bullsh!t scenerio where, "bob, you seeded, and it came in patchy, i want you to reseed...etc." cus then i tell them sure, but i need to charge, and then the argument starts. ok, step by step, what kind of seed are you putting down, when are you doing it, and when do you expect germination? "dormant" seeding, means there is no chance of germination till next season. so, you use our traditional rye/fescue/kbg mix. you plant it in late november. in late march, MAYBE it's warm enough to hatch. the seed hatches around march 24th. by april 15th, you best get your dimension down, or you can play with the crabgrass all summer long. so, you are now dumping herbicide on a grass plant that is 3 weeks old. that's good? not to mention......spring cleanup- being trampled at the tender young age of 2 weeks, etc. tell you what, when you have some topsoil left over this november, take it, make a bed 5x5, and seed around the last week of november. run a mower over it, walk on it, an run a blower over it in late march (simulating spring cleanup) , then apply dimension around april 15th. let me know what this 5x5 patch looks like on augest 1st. better yet, i got some topsoil on the truck right now. i'll do it. i'll take pics, and post them, ok? i'll bet my last bottle of grolsh, that the area needs reseeding in fall of 2006. why not just do it THE RIGHT WAY? the problem is, you are afraid to tell your clients NO, I WON'T DO IT. i've done "dormant " seeding, it's bullcrap

Bobby, according to previous statements you have made, you only plant in Sept and Oct. this leaves 10 months of planting that you ae leaving on the table. New Jerky is different than my area I agree, but there is no way you will ever convince me that grass only grows two months a year up there. I will be seeding on the last week of November as well as Dec and January and Febuary. I also seeded this year in June, July and August. For some reason, I just dont have the problems you have getting grass to grow.

LonniesLawns
11-02-2005, 05:47 PM
I will carefully throw my hat in this ring -- since I know the battles being fought here stem way past this thread and reach back into History.

However, Dormant seeding, as far as simply growing grass -- is superior to Spring seeding. Seed put out before Christmas will germinate on aver 14 - 20 days sooner than grass put down March 1. This is due to the natural environmental factors startining the physiological changes in the plant needed to signal germination.

Now granted -- Dormant seeding will not take care of ruts in yards. However I find the soil is much more workable in the early winter than it is during the soupy months of Spring anyway.

You have more pesticide options with dormant seeding because the grass matures so much faster than seed put in the ground earlier.

NOW -- Ideally -- grass should be planted as Early in the fall as possible -- but....... for those that can't (or didn't) get seeded before october 21 -- I always suggest dormant seeding.

Now when someone hires me -- they WILL have a beutiful lawn. SO. .. if ther lawn didn;t look good in June -- I would have my own grave dug. I wouldn't dormant seed unless it was the best thing possible for my clients yards.

I put down about 4000 pounds of seed this Fall-- and I will probbaly only dormant seed about 500 - 1000# or so. However, I will like ly do NO spring seeding and will instead try to get those customers to focus on cultural practices and hold off nay seding until late - summer - early -s pring.

BSDeality
11-02-2005, 07:43 PM
Excellent post LonniesLawn, thank you for adding your comments. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make 'em drink.

TurfTurd, actually my degree is in Agronomy (you do know what that is correct?)

bobbygedd
11-02-2005, 10:47 PM
sure lonnie, i can grow grass in march, april, and may. BUT WHY not, just do it, when conditions are IDEAL, and avoid the nonsense with possible damage from- herbicides, extreme heat, and diseases that may effect young plants harder than mature plants. no to mention weeds/crabgrass. sure muddstopper, june, july, and augest are ALOT BETTER times to seed, than december. a lawn seeded in june, for example, most certainly had crabgrass control applied 2-3 months prior to seeding. do whatever you want. been there, done that, chased weeds + crabgrass, not interested.

TURFLORD
11-03-2005, 04:59 PM
Excellent post LonniesLawn, thank you for adding your comments. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make 'em drink.

TurfTurd, actually my degree is in Agronomy (you do know what that is correct?)
I must have hit a soft spot. Only one of us has resorted to name calling. My main problem with your initial post was your egotistical abasement of BG's views. You sound like you think your better than some people because you gots yoself sum edumakatin and da rez uv us poe chumps don't deserve to be in the same room. And please explain your use of the word; professionalism.
I looked up the actual definition of Acronomy. It's defined as an overseer of the public land. The science and economics of crop production,management of farmland. Is this what your degree is in? I see alot of winter rye being planted now, not much corn though. Care to explain that Mr. Dormant Seeder? There's a sod farm very close by to me and they NEVER dormant seed. I would think a sodfarm would have some kind of a clue. The moral of this story is respect your elders Sonny. When you've been doing this for at least 20 years and have developed stategies that are based on more than what you've read in a book, then you can have an EDUCATED opinion.

bobbygedd
11-03-2005, 05:07 PM
turflord , beat his azz

BSDeality
11-03-2005, 10:20 PM
my apologies for the name calling. I've had a bad week with an injury that has be laid up.

For the record, my degree is Turfgrass Management.
You go your own way and I shall go mine.

Pilgrims' Pride
11-04-2005, 06:22 AM
Boy watching this grow has been fun!
Now. I have talked with a few agronomist friends of mine and they seem to agree that there is no reason to not do the seeding LATE in the season.
They have real life experience (not just book smarts) and what they say makes sense.
As Lonnie mentioned the seed gets a much better start and will mature more quickly.
I will wait and give it a try.
I am not concerned with pre-emergent treatments in spring since there are many that are available that will not hinder growth of new plants. (drive for one)
I am the only person who treats these places so I'm not worried about someone else screwing up what I've started.

Thank you all for you in put here.

Bobbygedd,
You once claimed to be a Christian here.
It's time to reconsider your testimony.

TURFLORD
11-04-2005, 02:08 PM
Bobby, no need for the shovel just yet. I do not clain to know all. That would be both arrogant and ignorant. Observing Mother Nature we can all see that most seed are disbursed in the fall to germinate next year. I tried a very early seeding one time in the Spring. There was a severe late Spring frost after germination and I lost 40%. So now I just wait til April or May depending on Crabgrass applications.

muddstopper
11-06-2005, 10:44 AM
Bobby, most of what I seed is new seedings, not overseeding, so no chemicals have been added pior to my getting to the job site. What I have found is that with new seeding, early spring, is people try to get their grass growing by applying massive amounts of fertilizer, in effect, killing the seed they are planting, and creating fungal problems when it gets hot and humid. This gives crabgrass a perfect opportunity to establish. Especially since most dont reconize when the fungus is getting established and the damage is done before it can be corrected. On most of my seeding areas, I am working in subsoil that is basicly void of any kind of seeds except what blows in by the wind or carried in by animal or vehicle. Getting a good stand of turf grass established early and mowing it at a tall height, 3 1/2 to 4 inches, will keep the crabgrass at a minimum, but not completely eliminate it. Once the turf grass is established, which in springtime with adequate moistue and good temperatures is 6 to 8 weeks, crabgrass preventer can be used without severly damageing the new turf. I have also found that crabgrass will establish just as quickly in a mature established lawn if the conditions are made favoritable for it to do so. Hence the need to begain a series of crabgrass treatments every year to prevent the crabgrass from taking over the established lawn. In other words, you are going to be treating crabgrass anyways so why advoid seeding. Dormant seeding can be done in the summer just as well as in the winter months. The key is to not force germination by irrigating the lawn. You will get some germination of seed but most of the seed will not germinate until conditions are right for it to do so. Of course most customers want it green and want it now. If you are going to irrigate new plantings in the summer you are not dormant seeding, you will encourage the seed to germinate as well as provide moisture for the weed seeds, which will outgrow the grass and create a weed infested lawn before the grass has a chance to establish. Not using irrigation will result in a mulch covered lawn with spotty grass and weed germination. At this point, the weeds can effectly be eliminated with spot spraying or painting of roundup on the individual weed plants. Roundup wont hurt ungerminated seed, altho I dont recommend broad spectrum spraying of newly seeded areas. (I have sprayed roundup immediantly before planting grass without seeding any visible damage to the new seed being applied. If fact, the roundup seems to speed up germination of the grass seeds but I cant verify that.) Once sufficent rainfall or moisture is applied, the dormant seeded lawn will almost jump out of the ground and fill in quickly. the same for Dormant winter seeding. No use forcing the seed to germinate by irrigation right before a hard freeze, but that freeze will help condition the unirrigated seed to germinate early in the spring, nature has seeded this way for centuries. All seeds have a built in peremergent to prevent early germination. Some seeds depend on microbial activity to breakdown the preemergent chemicals held inside the seed. Others, most grasses, only need moisture to flush these peremergent chemicals out of the seed hull. In nature, moisture is normally more present in late fall, winter, and spring, yet grass produces seeds in late spring and summer, the seeds will fall from the grass plants and lay dormant until nature or man provides enough moisture to ensure germination. Nature does this with rainfall and man with a irrigation system or a water hose.

turfsurfer
11-07-2005, 08:46 PM
I have no hesitation doing dormant seeding. Have done it in the past and it works, period. That's the benefit of having actual experience versus trying to sort through the increasing amount of BS on here.
Lawns that are just somewhat thin can definately benefit from a dormant seeding IF you run out of time during the optimal Fall seeding season. For total renos that didn't get done in the Fall, I will dormant seed the borders and areas that are hard to get into with the slit seeder, followed up by slit seeding the whole yard in the Spring. This helps eliminate bare spots with the initial seeding.

greasy_gun
04-02-2006, 07:59 PM
grass seed=>the dark moon in february

bntt68
04-03-2006, 02:28 AM
Tupersan!!!

chriscraft
04-05-2006, 10:14 PM
We seed labor day to oct 15th and have good lucj but it is uo and growing in 3-5 days on ryes with topdressing, 7-10 on fescues and 14-21 with bluegrass so it is up and growing b4 winter, i do notice sometimes if we seed or rennovate late in the year the majority does come up in the spring tho although we havent really tried DORMANT seeding purposely