PDA

View Full Version : Enough With The Certifications!!!


JimLewis
11-23-2005, 06:13 AM
Here's a thread that should be in the next issue of TURF Magazine;

What's with all of the damm certification programs out there? Is anyone else getting sick of it?

If I want to install Pavers I should be certified with the ICPI...

If I want to install Irrigation, I should get a CIC certification from the IA

AND....if I want to install Raibird products I should get certified with Rainbird

If I want to install LV Lighting, I should get certified by the NILLA

If I want to install retaining walls, I should get certified by both the ICPI and the NCMA

If I want to install putting greens, I should to get certified by AllPro or PuttingGreensTurf or whoever else sells the stuff

If I want to do general landscaping, I should get certified with the ALCO

And even then, I need to decide whether to be a CLT or a CLP

If I want to maintain landscapes, I should get a certification from the PLCAA

If I want to design landscapes, I should get certified by the APLD

If I want to install ponds and water features, I should get certified by Aquascapes Designs

I mean, GIVE ME A FREAKIN' BREAK! What's with the miriad of the certifications these days??? I used to consider getting certified in some things. But now it's just become a big joke. I am sure there is some value to taking the classes and getting certified. But I bet the biggest "value" is in the pocket books of the organizations who are creating these "certification" programs. They are raking in the dough payup , making everyone think you need to be certified in order for people to recognize you as a legitimate contractor.


:realmad: :angry: :mad: :blob2:

impactlandscaping
11-23-2005, 08:14 AM
Funny that you mention this, Jim. I was meeting with a property manager last year, and as we were going over the details of our bid, I mentioned a few certifications and association memberships we belonged to. She was like, "that's nice...now about the price here for shrub trimming.."..I was a little embarassed, and felt that I was overselling our company to someone who could have cared less about properly trained crew members on their property, and more about the bottom line.

Green-Pro
11-23-2005, 08:50 AM
Here's a thread that should be in the next issue of TURF Magazine;

What's with all of the damm certification programs out there? Is anyone else getting sick of it?

If I want to install Pavers I should be certified with the ICPI...

If I want to install Irrigation, I should get a CIC certification from the IA

AND....if I want to install Raibird products I should get certified with Rainbird

If I want to install LV Lighting, I should get certified by the NILLA

If I want to install retaining walls, I should get certified by both the ICPI and the NCMA

If I want to install putting greens, I should to get certified by AllPro or PuttingGreensTurf or whoever else sells the stuff

If I want to do general landscaping, I should get certified with the ALCO

And even then, I need to decide whether to be a CLT or a CLP

If I want to maintain landscapes, I should get a certification from the PLCAA

If I want to design landscapes, I should get certified by the APLD

If I want to install ponds and water features, I should get certified by Aquascapes Designs

I mean, GIVE ME A FREAKIN' BREAK! What's with the miriad of the certifications these days??? I used to consider getting certified in some things. But now it's just become a big joke. I am sure there is some value to taking the classes and getting certified. But I bet the biggest "value" is in the pocket books of the organizations who are creating these "certification" programs. They are raking in the dough payup , making everyone think you need to be certified in order for people to recognize you as a legitimate contractor.


:realmad: :angry: :mad: :blob2:


Agreed, to much emphasis (by cert. companies) placed on what you have, not enough on what you know.

Need a Little Trim
11-23-2005, 09:14 AM
Other than getting more knowledge about specific manufacturer's products they really are worthless.
I have long thought that the key to my success in business is diversification but, I will be doing that with the my required liscenses by the state and continuing edication.
I have 2 associated degrees and I figure that is enough for me. Make a long story short your right about the certifications unless you get product deals for being certified I don't like it at all.

stumper1620
11-23-2005, 09:34 AM
Agreed, to much emphasis (by cert. companies) placed on what you have, not enough on what you know.
Mega Ditto:D

Tvov
11-23-2005, 09:34 AM
I have always thought, and still think, it is silly that I have to get a pesticide license to make lawn applications using products available to homeowners, who don't have to be certified. What's wrong with me getting a bag of Scott's Weed and Feed and putting it down on a lawn?

Oh well, off to do leaf cleanups. Wait, dammit, I don't have my Professional Leaf Vacuuming License!!

olderthandirt
11-23-2005, 09:50 AM
Certification with enough training would be beneficial but the way its set up now might as well just print up your cert. docs at home. What about serving an apprenticeship before certification like the trades have to, then you would set your self apart with the knowledge that you spent 2-4 yrs learning under a journeyman before becoming certified

Az Gardener
11-23-2005, 10:11 AM
The problem is we do so many different kinds of work Electrical, Plumbing, Plant's install /maintenance, Concrete, Drainage. The industry has just kinda evolved 20 years ago no one was doing low voltage lighting, landscapers were not building big retaining walls. Paver's? who was doing paver's. Even now on the east coast irrigation is kind of a specialty trade. Its our own greed that has brought us to this point. Oh no can't let anyone else make a buck, I have to make it all myself. Now the customers expect it and you really can't put the genii back in the bottle. Imagine if you told a homeowner the same company (not general contractor) was going to do the work, the design, grading, foundation, plumbing, framing, electrical, insulation,drywall, trim, painting, roofing, heat and a/c on their new home, they would think you are nut's :dizzy: . Every one of the trades listed above has not only a certification, but a license to do what they do. Concrete guys don't say oh yeah I can do the framing and electrical too. Only Landscapers are dumb enough to start this madness. So here we are.

olderthandirt
11-23-2005, 10:18 AM
The problem is we do so many different kinds of work Electrical, Plumbing, Plant's install /maintenance, Concrete, Drainage. The industry has just kinda evolved 20 years ago no one was doing low voltage lighting, landscapers were not building big retaining walls. Paver's? who was doing paver's. Even now on the east coast irrigation is kind of a specialty trade. Its our own greed that has brought us to this point. Oh no can't let anyone else make a buck, I have to make it all myself. Now the customers expect it and you really can't put the genii back in the bottle. Imagine if you told a homeowner the same company (not general contractor) was going to do the work, the design, grading, foundation, plumbing, framing, electrical, insulation,drywall, trim, painting, roofing, heat and a/c on their new home, they would think you are nut's :dizzy: . Every one of the trades listed above has not only a certification, but a license to do what they do. Concrete guys don't say oh yeah I can do the framing and electrical too. Only Landscapers are dumb enough to start this madness. So here we are.

I agree but when you have a house built the owner hires a general contractor that either employs the skilled licensed trade or he subs it out to those that do. The average homeoner does not care who does the work [general contractor or subs] as long as its done correctly. The cert. there giving now are nothing more than an 8 hr pep rally for the products and mean nothing.

stumper1620
11-23-2005, 10:20 AM
I agree but when you have a house built the owner hires a general contractor that either employs the skilled licensed trade or he subs it out to those that do. The cert. there giving now are nothing more than an 8 hr pep rally for the products and mean nothing.
Mac,
Get your certified salt shaker and your certified plow ready, its snowing to beat he!! here. I'm sure you will be seeing it in a few hours.

Az Gardener
11-23-2005, 10:46 AM
Can't speak for all certifications but I have to disagree on the Arborist certification, although I have heard they dumbed it down used to have to spell correctly all botanical names of trees. And our local Arizona Certified Landscape Professional exam is no bunny either. Aclp is a hands on all day test 8:00 to 4:00 only 7% of the candidates pass the first time through. By hands on I mean you have to lay the sod not just talk about it, you have to look at 1-gal buckets of turf and identify it, not this is fescue and this is bermuda more like this is bermuda 419 and this is tiff green, I have known GCSAA certified people fail the test turf test. ACLP covers Plant ID, Pests and diseases, Turf and sod, Tree planting and staking, Tree pruning, Water management, Irrigation, Chemical applications, Seasonal color, Fertilizers and Safety. As far as the manufacturers certifications you have to look at what you are getting certified for, in most cases it is not rocket science they just want to be sure their products are installed correctly so they work correctly. I Think the biggest wast of time was my Landscape license test, talk about outdated material and obsolete information. If you didn't buy the recommended book and give their answers regardless of right and wrong you failed, it was a joke.

MarcSmith
11-23-2005, 11:22 AM
PGMS, PLANET, I woudl think are better certifications to have than the manufacturer(sp) run classes. I honestly want to be educated, not have to pay for an infomercial about your product. I have my CLT in Maintenance adn installation, I took the test for the CLP and the CGM. I doubt I'll learn much more than I already know, but but having this cert and showing that I continue to educate myself I have the ability to seek higher wages as a result of my continuing education. Yes there is apoint in which you can be too smart for your own good, and landscaping is not rocket science.

TVOV-in that case, why don't I just go out drive my 18 wheeler with out a Class A CDL (the big uhual and ryder trucks are 1lb under dot cert and any bozo can rent them)....or let my dad the cesna pilot take a 747 across the big pond....

When you start collecting money and handling products on a large scale there is more harm that can come to others and the envionment as a result of your actions and thus we need to be better educated and show that we know how to handle/transport/apply everything properly on this larger scale. IMO

AintNoFun
11-23-2005, 12:57 PM
we were going over the details of our bid, I mentioned a few certifications and association memberships we belonged to. She was like, "that's nice...now about the price here for shrub trimming.."


i think thats how 95% of property managers think. i have heard the same thing from a few of my friends who are icpi certified when they try to sell the job the customer shoots straight to the price.. lol

JimLewis
11-23-2005, 01:05 PM
..... Its our own greed that has brought us to this point. Oh no can't let anyone else make a buck, I have to make it all myself. Now the customers expect it and you really can't put the genii back in the bottle. ...... Concrete guys don't say oh yeah I can do the framing and electrical too. Only Landscapers are dumb enough to start this madness. So here we are.

Truer words were never spoken! I think you hit the nail on the head.

I remember 10 years ago I was just interested in mowing lawns, clean-ups, and spreading bark-mulch. I would either send people to other companies for the rest or else I'd sub-contract it out myself. But then I started doing some small lawn installs just because it was fairly easy and I figured - like you said - "Can't let anyone else make a buck!" Soon I was doing lawn installs right and left. Then I decided to get into planting. Studied and learned a lot about planting and Viola!! I was planting. Next came retaining walls, irrigation, lighting, concrete, fences, decks, flagstone, you name it. If it's outside, people expect us to do it.

And you're right. Customers demand it. I really don't want to do concrete or fences and decks. I'd actually prefer just to give someone a reference and say, "Here. Call this guy. He does good decks." But most customers have an overall outdoor plan and they expect the landscape contractor to handle all of it! So after losing several jobs because I didn't "do it all" I just gave in to the pressure and started handling it all. Still, we use a sub-contractor for some things like larger concrete jobs and fences and decks. But otherwise, I've learned how to do about everything else over the years.

And there are two reasons - greed and customer expectations. Greed on my part; "Why give someone else the money that I could be making?" and again, most customers want us to handle the entire project. So I've had to accomodate those expectations in order to win jobs.

It's crazy!

sheshovel
11-23-2005, 02:59 PM
Only Landscapers are dumb enough to start this madness. So here we are.

Well I think were were pressured into it by demand.
There are only so many variables to building a home.Outside there is an endless array of what can and will be done by you or someone else,
if they can think it up and it is outside their front door,it falls to us to handle it in their minds.
Even when I have said,well I don't do that type of work...they say well why not?You have to expand and meet the customers needs but yet be able to sub out and LET THE other guy put some money in his pocket too.
Otherwize you end up chaseing your own azz around the tree.And for certifications?
I think Arborists and pest control should be certified and thats it.

TJLANDS
11-23-2005, 04:00 PM
Now in NJ besides all the others, Landscapers have to be registered with the new Home Improvement Commission. $90 a year plus your trucks are going to show the numbers.
Jim you forgot one, SIMA for snow. I would belong to ANY association that would improve my bottom line, so I now belong to none.

freddyc
11-23-2005, 05:06 PM
training is good


credentialism is a stinking joke