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Rebs
12-07-2005, 11:37 PM
Has anyone ever used Lesco's Stonewall65WDG (Barricade)? If so, what kind of results did you get? Did you do split apps? What kind of cost?

Any information would be helpful

Thanks

ThreeWide
12-10-2005, 10:01 AM
I used Stonewall in granular form for nearly all pre-emergent applications last year. Stonewall is Lesco's name for Barricade, which is prodiamine. It is a much cleaner product than pedimethalin, with only minor staining of your equipment.

Some great info that I picked up during some weed science workshops this week involved half-life of pre-emergent herbicides in the soil. Prodiamine has half-life of 120 days compared to 44 days for pendimethalin. What does that mean? Not factoring in soil temperature or microbial activity, after 120 days prodiamine will be at half its original its original concentration while pendimethalin will be totally degraded. For you Dimension fans, its half-life is 17 days. Bottom line is that Barricade has a good capability to persist in the soil.

The product performed very well, had no notable issues with breakthrough even with the wettest July on record. I think that was a huge test for the product this year.

Applied 0.4 lbs AI per acre in Feb. Then 0.6 lbs in March/April. Also did 0.5 lbs again in August to prevent Poa and Fall weeds. Planning the yearly amount is important so that you do not exceed 1.5 lbs AI per acre.

Due to changes in my program in 2006, I will not split the Spring application of prodiamine. Instead, it will be one application at 1.0 lbs AI per acre.

Using the WDG product, one might expect even better results than granular due to more uniform coverage.

Rebs
12-10-2005, 10:09 AM
Thanks Turf for the information. I did not know that about the half-life between the two pre-emergents. Where did you get that information? Also, I would be interested to know how the fall app you did with the poa. I had alot of conversations this fall with people on putting a pre-emerge down in late August/September just for poa. It was very bad last year! I am looking at adding that next year(2006). How many services do you do a year? What type of grass do work mostly with? I am 95% bermuda 5% zoysia.

Thanks for the info!

MIDWEST25
12-10-2005, 10:21 AM
barricade broke down all over our area this year.Guys were trying to get refunds and were told to read the watering section of the label and then look how much rain fell.After 28 or so years of this I've learned nature runs in cycles and this year crabgrass was bad around the midwest.My base customers that mow right have not had pre-m or crabgrass in a few years now.I have no faith in any pre-m's and neither do the manufacturers

ThreeWide
12-10-2005, 10:31 AM
Info was from Dr. Tim Murphy who is a weed scientist for UGA.

IMHO, the Aug/Sep pre-emergent is one of the most important apps of the year when dealing with warm season turf. I manage 80% Bermuda, 10% Zoysia, and 10% Fescue. Couple of Centipedes as well.

I do 7 applications per year on warm season turf. Most pre-emergent herbicides are costly products, so I go at a light rate in August. This helps guard against late Summer/early Fall crabgrass germination and also protects during the Poa germination window. Poa germination is very inconsistent from year to year due to weather conditions. This year, I didn't see any Poa until mid November. That is much later than normal.

After the turf goes dormant, I follow it up with an application of Simazine. This knocks out a good number of broadleafs, kills young Poa, and provides more pre-emergent with a different AI. Ideally, the lawn will stay clean through the Winter months. Simazine is very cheap, so this application is probably the most profitable of the year.

As customers span more time under my program, the need for pre-emergents will decrease as overall turf health increases.

DUSTYCEDAR
12-10-2005, 10:42 AM
thanks for the info i am in the north east and we had a heavy year for crabgrass but i did split apps of dimenshion and had no problems but it isnt cheep i would like to do only i app and stonewall may be the ticket

ThreeWide
12-10-2005, 10:55 AM
Didn't intend on this turning into a debate on whether pre-emergents actually work or not. We all know they will fail if the wrong sequence of events occur.

After application, they need a certain amount of moisture within a certain number of days. Too much or too little and all bets are off. There are plenty of threads here where it has been discussed in the past.

I'd rather apply them and have a method of defense that is effective more often than not.

If you could have complete control over the properties you manage in terms of mowing, watering, and fertilization, over time the turf would be healthy enough to avoid most pre-emergents. There are three major parts to this puzzle, and having control over only one of them (fert and squirt) leaves you vulnerable otherwise.

DUSTYCEDAR
12-10-2005, 11:11 AM
did u use the .20 or the .43? was wondering if the .20 would be better with more particals per 1000 sq ft would get better control

quiet
12-10-2005, 12:03 PM
I've done split apps of granular Barricade last year and this year. 1/2 around Labor Day, and the other half beginning of December. I just finished Round 2.

I get year round coverage. Only had some very minor breakthrough with crabgrass in the beginning of August after a 7" rainfall (following a 2 month drought).

Last year I used a 5-5-20 w/.032% Barricade. This year I switched to Barricade .048 AI on DG Pro this year as I did not want to put any Nitrogen on the lawns in Dec.

The early Sept app kept the poa annua away, and the Dec app extended the coverage through the year.

ThreeWide
12-10-2005, 01:58 PM
The AI percentage largely depends on what round it is. The explanation can get long because it needs to matchup with the nutrients needed at the time.

For example, I will use a 32-3-12 fertilizer with a 0.37 Barricade. To apply 0.5 AI, the rate also applies about 1 lb N/M.

For Feburary I will go with a 0.50 Barricade on a carrier such as 0-0-20. This works well if you are putting out roughly 1.0 lbs AI per acre, because you end up apply about 1.5 lbs P/M. I like to purchase the highest AI possible because it lowers the overall cost for a round. When you buy the lower AI percentages, you are paying for more carrier in the end.

But to answer your question on the Lesco products, earlier this year I used 0-0-8 0.43 in my split apps. Yes it was a little troublesome putting out the lower rate at that percentage product. It is easier to spread the 0.20 rate for example, but your end cost is also higer. It is a tradeoff.

I generally think that the folks who understand the different percentage AI rates are the ones who ultimately apply the correct amount of pre-emergent. People have asked me questions about pre-emergent they applied but had no idea it mattered what AI was purchased. When you hear stories about pre-emergent failing, you have to think that misapplication is cause more times than not.

philk17088
12-10-2005, 03:38 PM
thanks for the info i am in the north east and we had a heavy year for crabgrass but i did split apps of dimenshion and had no problems but it isnt cheep i would like to do only i app and stonewall may be the ticket

I did a single app with Barricade.43 on a 16-4-8. I wasn't impressed with the results. I had breakthroughs in good turf, not the usual places like curb strips and edges.
Now I think the weather had a lot to do with it. I'm going back to dimension for 2006.

quiet
12-10-2005, 07:20 PM
The AI percentage largely depends on what round it is. The explanation can get long because it needs to matchup with the nutrients needed at the time.

For example, I will use a 32-3-12 fertilizer with a 0.37 Barricade. To apply 0.5 AI, the rate also applies about 1 lb N/M.

For Feburary I will go with a 0.50 Barricade on a carrier such as 0-0-20. This works well if you are putting out roughly 1.0 lbs AI per acre, because you end up apply about 1.5 lbs P/M. I like to purchase the highest AI possible because it lowers the overall cost for a round. When you buy the lower AI percentages, you are paying for more carrier in the end.

But to answer your question on the Lesco products, earlier this year I used 0-0-8 0.43 in my split apps. Yes it was a little troublesome putting out the lower rate at that percentage product. It is easier to spread the 0.20 rate for example, but your end cost is also higer. It is a tradeoff.

I generally think that the folks who understand the different percentage AI rates are the ones who ultimately apply the correct amount of pre-emergent. People have asked me questions about pre-emergent they applied but had no idea it mattered what AI was purchased. When you hear stories about pre-emergent failing, you have to think that misapplication is cause more times than not.

Yes, exactly. Gotta calculate AI and calibrate spreaders. With combo products you have another set of variables to deal with. That's another reason I decided to eliminate the carrier fert blends altogether and just go with straight preemergent apps.

philk17088
12-12-2005, 01:17 PM
I met with my rep today. I'm sticking with the 16-4-8 Barricade.43 for this year. The rep feels that the weather in the N.E was the culprit. Heavy rain in early spring, drought by the end of may, heavy downpours the first week of july. He suggested starting a little later with the app. The other deciding factor was price.The Barricade was $3 per bag cheaper than the dimension.19 on the same analysis. I like the idea of single app also. I plan on using more post emergent this year and the savings on the intial will help offset the cost of the post emerge.
I know,I know, wishful thinking:rolleyes:

DUSTYCEDAR
03-20-2006, 10:24 AM
philk how many pounds per k were u puttin out?
i did split apps of dim last year .15 april and june and had good results but i know the rain washed out the first app so i planed for splits and was ok
i was thinking the mini prill would give me better contact with the soil and hope for the best
with all the big guys in my area cutting each other off at the knees over price i am trying to be more on the ball to keep the customers happy

Mscotrid
03-20-2006, 03:46 PM
Single apps can save a few coins but if you research university data I think you will find the better results lean towards the split apps.

Mscotrid
03-20-2006, 03:49 PM
using a .37 too achieve a .50 only allows 3.1 lbs actula product. I can't see where you would get even particle coverage at that light a rate. The numbers work on paper but I question turf coverage. JMO