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Bluefin
12-26-2005, 11:41 PM
Other than corn meal gluten, what weed control materials do you all use?

ArizPestWeed
12-27-2005, 01:01 AM
http://www.ecosmart.com/

They have some

NattyLawn
12-30-2005, 08:49 AM
Check out www.farmcropextracts.com, and look at the sponsor forum on here as well.

NattyLawn
12-31-2005, 10:02 AM
I forgot to mention the Green Guardian is not organic or chemical, but edible according to green mark and farm crop extracts. It does have urea in it.

green_mark
12-31-2005, 12:37 PM
The Green Guardian has "Organic Weed and Pest Controls" these products used for controls do not contain urea. They are used in human and animal food/feed and cosmetic items.

The liquid and granular Weed and/or Feed products which contain in excess of 5% nitrogen do contain feed grade urea. This is an edible form of nitrogen used in animal feeds and human cosmetics. No need to put lip stick on this pig. It is what it is and I refuse to be deceptive.

I am very proud of what we have made. You see, we focus on "Edible" ingredients for one major reason. Organic does in no way provide a measurement of safety. It has been implied that it does, which is inaccurate.

We use only ingredients derived from agricultural byproducts and nutrients fed to animals. This provides what most customers are looking for and it supports the farming community of which I was a member. I never forget my roots.

Now pushing into the organic alternatives to “feed grade” urea. Processed sewage is organic and a good form of nitrogen and other minerals. While I am from a farm that had ~1,000 animals at any given time I have made a "personal" choice not to handle any more of that. I put in my time. I also think I ate enough @#$! and I just never acquired a taste for it.

Other sources are Corn meal, Soy meal, Alfalfa (very low N), Cotton seed meal, Meat Scrapes, Blood and the like. All very good but each has its own advantages and disadvantages i.e. cost, bulk, smell, usability, effectiveness. Some of these ingredients are also utilized in various products we offer. I have stayed clear of animal body parts for two reasons. Most customers and staff dislike the smell and the origin.

Now, the same can be said for every product on the market. No perfect product has been made simply because everyone has a different viewpoint of “perfect”.

Let’s discuss the issue of urea and what form we use.

Yes, Urea is in some of our products. It is Feed Grade and not Ag grade. The difference is the biuret content. We purchase the feed grade form which is edible and has a very low (<0.25%) biuret content. This is why we emphasize that all our products are "Feed Grade" or "Edible" or "Derived from Feed Ingredients".

Why did we choose to avoid biuret? Simply because it is known to cause phytotoxic reactions and who wants burned lawns?

Now, let’s understand the manufacturing process that makes Urea. For the purpose of expediency I will provide the short version. For the long version Goggle "Urea manufacturing process" and "Ammonia manufacturing process” Here you will get an in-depth understanding on how all the nitrogen based products come into existence. A very good visual link is available here.
http://www.chemguide.co.uk/physical/equilibria/haberflow.gif

Anyway, the first step is you have to get ammonia. Where does that come from? "Atmosphere" which is compressed under high temperatures created by using "Natural Gas". It is then combined with carbon dioxide to stabilize it. Now we have Nitrogen, Hydrogen and Carbon. Without these 3 important components life on this planet just would not be the same.

The opinions expressed above are my own and are rooted from my fathers environmental education and stewardship which started me on this journey and my 33 years of farming origins, agronomic and horticultural studies (college and independent), 20 years of turf grass operations, Agricultural byproduct utilization research, plant and insect physiology and true passion for this business.

AFTER ALL, AS AN INDUSTRY, WE ARE RESPONSIBLE TO PROPERLY STEWARD OUR MOST VALUABLE RESOURCE, TURF. AFTER ALL TURF CREATES MORE OXYGEN PER ACRE THAN THE RAINFOREST!

nocutting
12-31-2005, 05:26 PM
I forgot to mention the Green Guardian is not organic or chemical, but edible according to green mark and farm crop extracts. It does have urea in it.
Matt, does this mean organic crops arent edible anymore? and because its "Edible" it safe for all of man kind?":dizzy:

muddstopper
01-01-2006, 10:01 PM
Let’s discuss the issue of urea and what form we use.

Yes, Urea is in some of our products. It is Feed Grade and not Ag grade. The difference is the biuret content. We purchase the feed grade form which is edible and has a very low (<0.25%) biuret content. This is why we emphasize that all our products are "Feed Grade" or "Edible" or "Derived from Feed Ingredients".

Why did we choose to avoid biuret? Simply because it is known to cause phytotoxic reactions and who wants burned lawns?




BIURET
NH2-CO-NH-CO-NH2, produced from urea by heating, contains 41% nitrogen (256% CP). It is only slightly soluble in water and is not toxic as the ammonia is slowly released in the rumen. It therefore has definite advantages over urea for use in dry feeds, although it is more expensive. An adaptation period of two weeks to two months is required before obtaining a response to feeding biuret. This adaptation is rapidly lost when biuret is not fed

Only animals with a functioning rumen can utilize urea; therefore it should not be given to young calves and monogastric animals. Unlike protein, urea does not contain energy, phosphorus or sulphur; hence a feed mixture containing urea should be supplemented to make up for these deficiencies. Poor results are usually experienced with urea when fats provide a substantial portion of the energy in the diet.

While urea is, indeed, an organic compound, it will not support the bacterial growth that is essential for the formation of humus. When urea is metabolized, the products are ammonia and carbon dioxide. Thus, urea yields carbon in a form that will not support the oxidative metabolism of soil bacteria. To accomplish that, carbon must be in the reduced state, combined with hydrogen as it is failing to support the growth of soil bacteria, and therefore the formation of humus, it does not quality as an "organic fertilizer."

Dr. Barry Commoner
Director, Center for the Biology of Natural Systems

DUSTYCEDAR
01-05-2006, 05:36 PM
not sure where i fell of the bus but i did now i have to catch up

muddstopper
01-05-2006, 10:49 PM
Dusty, not sure if your reply was in reference to my post or not. the purpose of my post was to point out the misconception that Urea is considered a safe food grade product. It is not. Only animals with a functioning rumen can utilize urea; therefore it should not be given to young calves and monogastric animals. People do not have functioning rumen and therefore cannot utilize urea in their diets. I am sure that most of Green Mark's food grade products might be edible and digestable by humans, even some soils have been determined to be digestable, but just because something is called food grade doesnt mean it is safe to consume. there are a lot of products in the food we buy at stores that contain food grade additives and those additives have been proven toxic at certain levels.
I havent seen or tested any of the green mark products or seen a MSDS sheet, just voiceing my thoughts on the food grade urea.

DUSTYCEDAR
01-06-2006, 10:14 AM
thanks mud i just caught up t0 the buss
and i guess its all in how someone interpits something as to how it can be classified

green_mark
01-06-2006, 11:25 AM
Dusty, not sure if your reply was in reference to my post or not. the purpose of my post was to point out the misconception that Urea is considered a safe food grade product. It is not. People do not have functioning rumen and therefore cannot utilize urea in their diets. I am sure that most of Green Mark's food grade products might be edible and digestable by humans, even some soils have been determined to be digestable, but just because something is called food grade doesnt mean it is safe to consume. there are a lot of products in the food we buy at stores that contain food grade additives and those additives have been proven toxic at certain levels.
I havent seen or tested any of the green mark products or seen a MSDS sheet, just voiceing my thoughts on the food grade urea.

We have more than one product. We have many products. Yes, some contain "Feed Grade" urea.

The reason we decided to use "Feed Grade" urea in “some of our products” is because the "Organic" alternatives like "Chilean Nitrate" simply does not fit into our "Edible" ingredients philosophy and is not allowed to be used as an inert as provide by under FIFRA ACT sec (25)b.

If you carefully look at each of the products in our line you will find all ingredients are on the FIFRA ACT sec (25)b list for active and inert ingredients for minimum risk pesticides.
http://www.epa.gov/oppbppd1/biopesticides/regtools/25b_list.htm

Also, see this as a reference about where urea is found. Remember this is one of the substantial key's to life on this planet.

http://www.unu.edu/
Protein and Other Nitrogen Components of Foodstuffs

Nitrogen in foods not only comes from amino acids in protein, but also exists in additional forms that may or may not be used as a part of the total nitrogen economy of humans and animals. The nitrogen content of proteins in foods can vary between 150 and 180 g/kg 115-18 per cent), depending on the amino acids they comprise. In addition, purines, pyrimidines, free amino acids, vitamins, creatine, creatinine, and amino sugars can all contribute to the total nitrogen present. In meat, a portion of the nitrogen occurs as free amino acids and peptides; fish may contain these and volatilebase nitrogen and methyl-amino compounds 11). Marine elasmobranchs may also contain urea. Half of the nitrogen of the potato may not be in the form of protein (2), and even in human milk as much as 50 per cent of the total nitrogen may be urea nitrogen (3). Because the nutritional significance of much of the non-amino acid and non-peptide nitrogen is unclear, nitrogen analysis of a food is usually much more precise than the nutritional significance that can be attached to it.

In practice, most biological methods for evaluating protein quality (chaps. 4 and 5) are, in fact, evaluating nitrogen but are expressed as crude protein (N x 6.25). Nitrogen data are also used for amino acid scores (chap. 3) when amino acids are expressed in terms of mg/g N. When results are to be expressed in terms of protein, as for example in protein efficiency ratio (PER) and when amino acid scores are to be expressed per 16 9 N, then the average conversion factor of 6.25, defined as crude protein, is again used (4). Since requirements are also expressed in terms of N x 6.25, conversion factors are not needed and no confusion should exist.

For other purposes, however, such as labelling regulations and food composition data, conversion from nitrogen to protein is wide)y used and a range of conversion factors exists.

Most food composition tables derive estimates of protein content by applying

What products do not contain “Feed Grade” urea and conform to organic standards?

Everything Must Go! – Non Selective weed control

Blistering Defense – Insect Control

Goose Repel – Small critter repellent

Skeeter Beater – Mosquito repellent

Slow Down 5-0-3 “Liquid” N-source is derived from plant proteins.

Maize Turf 10-0-0 “Granular” Corn Gluten fertilizer

Green Guardian 5-0-3 “Liquid” (also a selective weed control)

Which products do contain “Feed Grade” urea?

Natures Feed 18-0-5 “Liquid Fertilizer”
Natures Feed 7-0-5 “Liquid Fertilizer”
The Green Guardian 14-0-5 “Liquid Fertilizer and selective weed control)
Humic Plus 8-0-5 “Granular Fertilizer” N-source mostly derived from Soymeal
Blade Runner 12-0-9 “Granular Fertilizer”

All of these still fit into “OUR FEED GRADE FOCUS”.

Why do we choose this “FEED GRADE” banner to wave?
Simply because the word “Organic” has lost it’s luster and intended meaning. Organic has been referenced as the “SAFE” alternative which is simply not accurate. While you make clear even the food we eat is not "safe" neither is water, you can drown or if freezes you can slip and fall. We have to get to a level of realism and not surrealism. While I encourage contrary opinions, because it makes me reanalyze my work, it is also important not to take a subject and take it to the "water is dangerous" level. But please, feel free to object, publicly!

The public is also aware of the differences in products/claims and are not commonly fooled by companies who claim “SAFTEY” as their banner then apply Bat/Horse/Human fecal material.

My previous profession was as a livestock/crop farmer. I know the benefits of using fecal materials on our crop land. It is my belief that most home owners, while they love farmers and animals, simply don’t desire to have the yard their children play on to contain it or smell like it.

In conclusion, our mission has been to make our products as safe as possible.
The Urea issue, while valid, is simply better than any other product we can find...today.

The Green Guardian is always developing new products and yes we are seeking an acceptable alternative to it. While we have new plant protein extractions in development they are not ready for testing.

We also have products which contain no Urea as listed above. We offer products that fit into most turf care programs for those who seek alternatives to "traditional" products.

NattyLawn
01-06-2006, 12:10 PM
I think the urea scares a lot of LCO's away from trying the GG, and now it's available without the urea but still with fert. Will the GG be available fert. free? I'm sure some LCO's want to stick to their granular regimen, and coming back and spot treating with 14-0-5 and 5-0-3 might not be the best option.
Also, when your company goes back to re-treat in 1-3 weeks, do you spot treat or blanket?
Also, is it really 3 apps in 4 weeks to burn down Nutsedge? That's a lot of going back to the same property in a short span to treat...

green_mark
01-06-2006, 02:02 PM
I think the urea scares a lot of LCO's away from trying the GG, and now it's available without the urea but still with fert. Will the GG be available fert. free? I'm sure some LCO's want to stick to their granular regimen, and coming back and spot treating with 14-0-5 and 5-0-3 might not be the best option.
Also, when your company goes back to re-treat in 1-3 weeks, do you spot treat or blanket?
Also, is it really 3 apps in 4 weeks to burn down Nutsedge? That's a lot of going back to the same property in a short span to treat...

I do have the ability to make the selective weed control as a stand alone product. My fear is that this would be mixed with other products and sprayed whereas we do not know the ramifications of the combinations' effects on non intended targets.

On re-treatments the level of reapplication will be based solely on the weed population. We adjust these applications to the situation.

If the lawn is green already spot treating should not cause any discoloration to an already healthy area. However, if the lawn is not as green or thick as it should be it will cause that area to be much improved over any other area.

Nutsedge is always a tough plant to remove. We have found that if you spray at a 45 degree angle to the blade (so full leaf coverage occurs) to both sides it reduces it much faster and potentially with less treatments.

muddstopper
01-06-2006, 05:32 PM
Green, dont take my comments as being argumentative or as trying to place your products in an unfavorable light. I was mearly stating that not all food grade substances are as safe as many people believe. I readily admit that I have never even seen your products or checked them out on the web, and I cant possibly know anything about how they are made or what they contain.

On another note, I am all for the organic approach to lawn care and realize the benefits of such an approach. I also understand that there are more than a few organic products that are basically worthless to use, not because they are not good products , but because the manufacturer doesn't supply all the facts. You know the advertisements that say all you need is a spoonful and it will cure whatever ails your lawn. This is a predominate practice with most of the microbe and bio stimulants on the market. Will the products work, sure they will, if introduced in the right environment, spray them on a soil that is low in humis and organic matter and see how much they help. You might get a quick boost to the problem area but the microbes quickly die out. A spoon full of microbes isn't going to return the humis back to the soil overnight and without the humis the microbes cant live. This means you either have to reapply the microbes or you have to add humis along with the microbe. Sure, if you add enough microbes over a period of several years, you might be able to restore some of the humis to the soil but you ain't going to do it with a spoonful or even a wheel barrow full, unless of course you are treating a very small area. Simply adding organic materials helps but most dont realize the magnitude that is needed to restore the humus that is/was lost, either by dozing it up or by years of using chemical fertilizers. It takes 100,000 lbs of organic material to equal 10,000lbs of organic matter, it takes 10,000lbs of organic matter to equal 4 lbs of humis. Now considering that the best soil will contain 5% humis in the soil structure, it is easy to see how simply mowing your grass isn't going to return enough organic material to the lawn so that it can become humis, at least not in a short term. a 6in layer of soil over one acre in area will weigh approx. 2million lbs. 5% of 2mil is 100,000 lbs of humis just to get up to a best soil situation. Since it takes 25,000lb of organic to material to equal 1 lb of humis, (100000/4=25,000) that means it will take about 2.5 billion lbs of organic material to recreate the humis that should be in the 1 acre of soil. All that material didnt grow overnite and cant be replaced by a jug or two of any bio-stimulant on the market. Humis rich soil doesnt get depleted overnight by the use of chemical fertilizer and it isnt going to be restored overnight by adding spoonfuls of teas or alfalfa sprouts.

cenlo
01-14-2006, 09:03 AM
The Green Guardian has "Organic Weed and Pest Controls" these products used for controls do not contain urea. They are used in human and animal food/feed and cosmetic items.

The liquid and granular Weed and/or Feed products which contain in excess of 5% nitrogen do contain feed grade urea. This is an edible form of nitrogen used in animal feeds and human cosmetics. No need to put lip stick on this pig. It is what it is and I refuse to be deceptive.

I am very proud of what we have made. You see, we focus on "Edible" ingredients for one major reason. Organic does in no way provide a measurement of safety. It has been implied that it does, which is inaccurate.

We use only ingredients derived from agricultural byproducts and nutrients fed to animals. This provides what most customers are looking for and it supports the farming community of which I was a member. I never forget my roots.

Now pushing into the organic alternatives to “feed grade” urea. Processed sewage is organic and a good form of nitrogen and other minerals. While I am from a farm that had ~1,000 animals at any given time I have made a "personal" choice not to handle any more of that. I put in my time. I also think I ate enough @#$! and I just never acquired a taste for it.

Other sources are Corn meal, Soy meal, Alfalfa (very low N), Cotton seed meal, Meat Scrapes, Blood and the like. All very good but each has its own advantages and disadvantages i.e. cost, bulk, smell, usability, effectiveness. Some of these ingredients are also utilized in various products we offer. I have stayed clear of animal body parts for two reasons. Most customers and staff dislike the smell and the origin.

Now, the same can be said for every product on the market. No perfect product has been made simply because everyone has a different viewpoint of “perfect”.

Let’s discuss the issue of urea and what form we use.

Yes, Urea is in some of our products. It is Feed Grade and not Ag grade. The difference is the biuret content. We purchase the feed grade form which is edible and has a very low (<0.25%) biuret content. This is why we emphasize that all our products are "Feed Grade" or "Edible" or "Derived from Feed Ingredients".

Why did we choose to avoid biuret? Simply because it is known to cause phytotoxic reactions and who wants burned lawns?

Now, let’s understand the manufacturing process that makes Urea. For the purpose of expediency I will provide the short version. For the long version Goggle "Urea manufacturing process" and "Ammonia manufacturing process” Here you will get an in-depth understanding on how all the nitrogen based products come into existence. A very good visual link is available here.
http://www.chemguide.co.uk/physical/equilibria/haberflow.gif

Anyway, the first step is you have to get ammonia. Where does that come from? "Atmosphere" which is compressed under high temperatures created by using "Natural Gas". It is then combined with carbon dioxide to stabilize it. Now we have Nitrogen, Hydrogen and Carbon. Without these 3 important components life on this planet just would not be the same.

The opinions expressed above are my own and are rooted from my fathers environmental education and stewardship which started me on this journey and my 33 years of farming origins, agronomic and horticultural studies (college and independent), 20 years of turf grass operations, Agricultural byproduct utilization research, plant and insect physiology and true passion for this business.

AFTER ALL, AS AN INDUSTRY, WE ARE RESPONSIBLE TO PROPERLY STEWARD OUR MOST VALUABLE RESOURCE, TURF. AFTER ALL TURF CREATES MORE OXYGEN PER ACRE THAN THE RAINFOREST!

I agree with the "feed grade" organic fert. The only downside is usually the cost and maybe the initial release times. But as far as the "organic weed control" I don't buy it! The problem is the public wants to feel like they are doing the right thing.....as long as they don't have to pay extra! I have tried the vinegar, infra-weeder, tarps to seal out sunlight, corn, pulling, etc with little to no effect. The problem is the existing weeds with the long tap roots. Unless the entire root is destoyed it will grow back in a week. Non of the above mentioned will detroy the entire tap root (in my opinion). The best form of control woulb be to overseed 2-3 times per year with a vertislicer and apply the correct amount of water. That's the other problem, you can't find a homeowner willing to properly water thier property to achieve proper germination. If they don't have an in-ground system, forget it! Believe me I have tried, the public cries about pesticide reduction so we try to provide the proper service, the problem is they don't want to.....pay anymore.....see any weeds.....or have any responsibility:confused:

muddstopper
01-14-2006, 10:19 AM
Cenlo,

Money and work are two things homeowners don't want to part with. Most of the people that wont pay for the organic approach are also the same people that don't want to pay for chemical applications either. While the chemical apps might control the weed and pest problems short term, the problems will always come back. Simply adding chemicals is only a short term fix and makes the problems worse in the long term. Chemical apps destroy humis, they do so by first killing the microbial organisms that feed on the organic material that creates humis. Without these microbes the microbes that feed on the dead organic feeding microbes have to eat the humis that the soil contains. In most cases that humis is already low or lacking. The removal of the humis causes compaction in the soil. Compacted soil has less air spaces to hold or store water and oxygen. Adding fertilizers further causes pest problems simply because of the nitrogen it contains. This nitrogen converts to ammonia and CO2 and is lost mainly to the atmosphere or thru leaching into the ground water. Nitrogen feeding microbes feed on the readily available nitrogen from the fertilizers and then creates an imbalance of microbes in the soil. The end result is brownpatch, phytium blight, dollarspot, etc, etc, all considered turf diseases. with all the fungus problems the homeowner is then forced to start applying fungicides to control the fungus. Its a continuing cycle, using more chemicals to destroy more microbes and making the soil worse.

Using organics will reverse the cycle, not overnight, and not just one time applications. Organics balance the soil microbial population and creates humis. The humis reduces compaction, which in turn creates spaces in the soil for storing water and oxygen. A microbial balance will reduce fungi problems that cause large areas of turf to die off. The pest fungi are still there, but because of the number of beneficial microbes that are also there, the severity of the problems are reduced to negligible or acceptable levels.

With proper humis levels to support microbial life as well as good cultural practices, some as simple as raising the mower deck a inch or two, can create an almost weed/pest free lawn, that is easier to maintain, requires less irrigation, have a better visual appearance, and certainly a safer lawn for our children to play on

DUSTYCEDAR
01-14-2006, 11:57 AM
some good points
the money thing is the biggie in my area
they buy a house they can just afford with more lawn then they ever had befor
hire someone to cut it and in a year or 2 its full of weeds
they call and want something done naturaly so i give them a price and tell them its going to take a while to fix it all and they will need a sprinkler system to make it work well and they have a stroke at the cost
so they ask what will it cost to do it the chem way and most of the time they go that way

cenlo
01-14-2006, 05:41 PM
Cenlo,

Most of the people that wont pay for the organic approach are also the same people that don't want to pay for chemical applications either.

No way! Say a 4000 ft2 property runs about $350.00 for an organic based program (75% slow release w/ some overseeding and some spot spraying) the same "all natural" program would (or should cost) $550.00....... I would bet that 90% of the public would go for the first option.
First because it is providing some sort of organics into the soil adding to the microbial activity along with limited chemicals. But the main reason would be PRICE

cenlo
01-14-2006, 05:46 PM
Cenlo,

With proper humis levels to support microbial life as well as good cultural practices, some as simple as raising the mower deck a inch or two, can create an almost weed/pest free lawn, that is easier to maintain, requires less irrigation, have a better visual appearance, and certainly a safer lawn for our children to play on

If you have a lawn with ....say..20-30% existing dandilion weeds and you start an all natural program you will be years before you will even start to notice a reduction in weeds. (And that's only if the home owner decides to assist by keeping his lawn moist.) People will not wait that long.

cenlo
01-14-2006, 05:58 PM
Cenlo,

While the chemical apps might control the weed and pest problems short term, the problems will always come back. Simply adding chemicals is only a short term fix and makes the problems worse in the long term. Chemical apps destroy humis, they do so by first killing the microbial organisms that feed on the organic material that creates humis. Without these microbes the microbes that feed on the dead organic feeding microbes have to eat the humis that the soil contains. In most cases that humis is already low or lacking. The removal of the humis causes compaction in the soil. Compacted soil has less air spaces to hold or store water and oxygen. Adding fertilizers further causes pest problems simply because of the nitrogen it contains. This nitrogen converts to ammonia and CO2 and is lost mainly to the atmosphere or thru leaching into the ground water. Nitrogen feeding microbes feed on the readily available nitrogen from the fertilizers and then creates an imbalance of microbes in the soil. The end result is brownpatch, phytium blight, dollarspot, etc, etc, all considered turf diseases. with all the fungus problems the homeowner is then forced to start applying fungicides to control the fungus. Its a continuing cycle, using more chemicals to destroy more microbes and making the soil worse.

Using organics will reverse the cycle, not overnight, and not just one time applications. Organics balance the soil microbial population and creates humis. The humis reduces compaction, which in turn creates spaces in the soil for storing water and oxygen. A microbial balance will reduce fungi problems that cause large areas of turf to die off. The pest fungi are still there, but because of the number of beneficial microbes that are also there, the severity of the problems are reduced to negligible or acceptable levels.



C'mon.....if you are starting an "all natural" lawncare company (in most areas) you're screwed! Instead of taking 3% of the market and pissing them off by not correcting thier weed problem fast enough, and giving all of your "chem" competition more ammo against you. Why not impement organics and minimized chemical usage and spend the rest of your time educating the public on proper cultural practices and techniques? By doing this you will be making a larger impact on chemical reduction by switching people from your local "chem" guys which blanket spray thier properties 3-5 times per year with thier "specialized IPM staff" (16-18 year old kids making minimum wage)......Yeh I'm sure they are very careful! (Nothing against school kids....but we have all been there, and when your 18 you have other things on your mind):)

muddstopper
01-14-2006, 06:42 PM
Cenlo,
I cant disagree with anything you have said. The organic approach just doesnt mix with the gotta have it now crowd. For those, a mixed approach is about the only way you can get them the results they want with minimal damage to the environment. Doesnt Make it right, but it makes them feel good.

cenlo
01-14-2006, 11:20 PM
Cenlo,
I cant disagree with anything you have said. The organic approach just doesnt mix with the gotta have it now crowd. For those, a mixed approach is about the only way you can get them the results they want with minimal damage to the environment. Doesnt Make it right, but it makes them feel good.

I know, but it's the best option for the time being! Thanks for your posts.

Cenlo

green_mark
01-15-2006, 08:38 AM
Keep in mind that we have been able to create effectiveness over a very short time span. Granted our Green Guardian selective weed control does not work as well as "Traditional" methods but nonetheless it does work and show very good results within hours of application.

Some weeds will die faster than "traditional" controls but other will take longer. We market to our clients that "traditional" methods work to a 95% level while we work between 80% and 95%.

The result of setting expectations into an achievable level has been outstanding.

See attached photos for visual results of the Green Guardian within 24 hours.

cenlo
01-15-2006, 09:15 AM
Keep in mind that we have been able to create effectiveness over a very short time span. Granted our Green Guardian selective weed control does not work as well as "Traditional" methods but nonetheless it does work and show very good results within hours of application.

Some weeds will die faster than "traditional" controls but other will take longer. We market to our clients that "traditional" methods work to a 95% level while we work between 80% and 95%.

The result of setting expectations into an achievable level has been outstanding.

See attached photos for visual results of the Green Guardian within 24 hours.

I know they will die or burn the visible portion of the weed but it is the root of existing weeds which are the problems. I would bet if those photos are of existing weeds that they would be back within 10 days!

green_mark
01-15-2006, 10:15 AM
I know they will die or burn the visible portion of the weed but it is the root of existing weeds which are the problems. I would bet if those photos are of existing weeds that they would be back within 10 days!

Actually, that will depend on the weed, weather and maturity. We have a ""Weed Buster™" program whereas we apply 3 applications over a 30 day period. At the end of this program we have ~80% control then followup with a monthly service which, if the lawn is watered and mowed correctly for the turf variety will provide the desired outcome.

This program has been successful on over 6,000 acres of commercial lawns and 8,000 acres of residential which are directly under my supervision/control.

No, the results are not as fast or as good as "traditional" products. However, we provide results that "exceed" the vast majority of our clients expectations and that is what it is "all" about!

see posting under "Sponsor Forums" The Green Guardian to see photos.

cenlo
01-15-2006, 11:12 AM
Actually, that will depend on the weed, weather and maturity. We have a ""Weed Buster™" program whereas we apply 3 applications over a 30 day period. At the end of this program we have ~80% control then followup with a monthly service which, if the lawn is watered and mowed correctly for the turf variety will provide the desired outcome.

This program has been successful on over 6,000 acres of commercial lawns and 8,000 acres of residential which are directly under my supervision/control.

No, the results are not as fast or as good as "traditional" products. However, we provide results that "exceed" the vast majority of our clients expectations and that is what it is "all" about!

see posting under "Sponsor Forums" The Green Guardian to see photos.

I am not an expert, and maybe your products are different from those I have tried. (I thought I had tried everything) I am just a little flusterated with the general public! They just seem to be all talk and no action. (At least in my area):)

green_mark
01-15-2006, 11:52 AM
I am not an expert, and maybe your products are different from those I have tried. (I thought I had tried everything) I am just a little flusterated with the general public! They just seem to be all talk and no action. (At least in my area):)

Actually, it's all in the marketing. I have a company in town who markets organic programs. They spent ~50,000 in marketing and generated about 40 clients.

While I hesitate to tell them how to market their mistakes were to put out an ad that required about 3 minutes of undivided attention of the person reading it.

Simple, you lose!

I was told that when I opened an office in Montreal I would surly fail. Our first marketing volley was too aggressive (believing they may be right) and the result was serious trouble. We had too many calls, too many clients and not enough equipment or staffing.

In each market I move into I know how to market to reach "my" audience. I don't want to reach the "traditional" client. Neither one of us will be happy.

I specialize in reaching "MY" demographic target. We analyze the markets in a number of ways. Then we identify who we want and drop the hammer.

And, yes I am sure you have tried "almost" everything. Most of which did not meet your or your clients expectations.

We have a take no prisoners approach to generating leads. From that point we actually interview, yes interview our prospective clients to make sure we both "fit" into each others expectations.

The most expensive client we have ever had is an unhappy and uninformed one.

muddstopper
01-15-2006, 12:44 PM
I really need to check out your products, but I dont do maintenance and it would be a stretch for me to start now.

I do want to point out a couple of things a lot of people overlook.

Actually, that will depend on the weed, weather and maturity. We have a ""Weed Buster™" program whereas we apply 3 applications over a 30 day period. At the end of this program we have ~80% control then followup with a monthly service which, if the lawn is watered and mowed correctly for the turf variety will provide the desired outcome.

Any program, chemical or organic usually doesnt work with just one application, nor does every chemical work on every weed. Those that do are not selective to just killing weeds, but will kill grass as well.

Even organics can differ in the weeds they target and the life they support. For instance, the soil microbial make up in a heavy wooded forest is very different than the microbial makeup in a grassland environment. It just makes sense that compose made using grass type material will work better on lawns than compose that is made with wood chips and sawdust. If you buy compost at wally world or homedepot, open the bag and see what kind of material it contains. Usually wood chips and cow poop or chicken poop. It contains about a .5/.5/.5 npk content and plenty of cellous eating microbes. But very little starch or sugar eating microbes. There are all kinds of enzymes that target different material composition. Using organic materials that are made from grass type products will promote a better grass environment for lawns, while using a organic material made from wood products will promote more woody plants, which is something you dont want or need in a lawn.

DUSTYCEDAR
01-15-2006, 01:27 PM
we had a company here the made a nice pelleted compost and other blends also it started out on the high end but u could still make a buck
then it went up and up and up and now the company is about belly up
the whole time i keept telling the salesman to find a way to make it cheeper so we could all afford to use it but they didnt and as less people used it the cost went up and now last i heard u cant even get the stuff anymore
his attatude was we make a great product and people will pay guess not

green_mark
01-15-2006, 02:06 PM
we had a company here the made a nice pelleted compost and other blends also it started out on the high end but u could still make a buck
then it went up and up and up and now the company is about belly up
the whole time i keept telling the salesman to find a way to make it cheeper so we could all afford to use it but they didnt and as less people used it the cost went up and now last i heard u cant even get the stuff anymore
his attatude was we make a great product and people will pay guess not

While price and quality go hand in hand their comes a point where it does not work for the customer.

Our pricing has done the reverse of what you have experienced. When volumes increase, fixed overheads become a smaller percentage of each sale.
As that number has declined, so have our prices.

Norm Al
01-18-2006, 07:36 PM
everybody i know uses this one www.crabgrassalert.com

Norm Al
02-05-2006, 02:16 PM
have any of you guys used this weed killer?

The Cowboy
02-07-2006, 03:35 PM
have any of you guys used this weed killer?

Looks like one of the fly by night companies where the advertising is more effective than the product.

Norm Al
02-08-2006, 10:29 PM
you might be right cowboy but my spray service is who i learned about it from and this guy http://betterlawns.com/February06/blg_3.asp probably one of the most respected guys in the orlando green industry!

The Cowboy
02-09-2006, 10:17 AM
you might be right cowboy but my spray service is who i learned about it from and this guy http://betterlawns.com/February06/blg_3.asp probably one of the most respected guys in the orlando green industry!

Point well taken. I say try it and let us know. I am choosing to be optimistic this time.payup payup payup

Norm Al
02-24-2006, 09:52 PM
i use it all the time,,,it works great!

some of the moderators on this organic forum know the product works,,,,,dont you dchall?


seems they really would like to forget about it tho! im not sure why.

NattyLawn
02-24-2006, 09:56 PM
I've wasted some time at this website...Please tell me what it's made out of? The site tells is nothing...It looks like it's the only thing you post about...Show us it works, take some pics....Plus, that little a$$ bottle treats 200 sq ft...

Norm Al
02-25-2006, 11:51 AM
natty,,,,,,it is not the only thing i post about,,,,go over to the lawn forum!

what else is there? are there a ton of SELECTIVE weed killers in the organics world? i only see 2,,,,,corn gluten which is only a preemerge and burn out which is not selective,,,,,,,,oh that must only leave ONE! give me another one and i will sing its praise!

till then keep making new threads about needing selective weed killers and you will keep getting zero answers!

Norm Al
02-25-2006, 11:59 AM
natty i searched the websites you guys posted for WEED KILLERS,,,,,first, the websites said they couldnt be found so i didnt get to see 2 of the 3,,,,,,the 1 i did find sells roundup pro as its herbicide,,,,,,thats not even organic,,,,is it?

NattyLawn
02-25-2006, 09:39 PM
What websites are you talking about? Look at the sponsor forum for Green Guardian...