Foreman Vs. Driver

[Gene $immons]

For those of you that run crews.

Is your Driver always the Foreman? What if your best worker does not have a drivers license? Are any of you in this same situation?

The problem is that some of my best employees, the ones who know all of your properties, and the guys that have been with me the longest don't have a license, due to whatever reason.

Now, If I hire a guy to be the driver, does he necessarily need to be in charge of the crew, or make the most money?

Thoughts?

[J Hisch]

I am right there with you. He was the supervisor for the mowing crews. However he had some mishaps, I couldnt leave him in his position due to the fact he couldnt drive. I cant put him in charge if he cant drive.. It stinks but driving is a part of his job. It really come down to a respect issue. He can lead the crew but he cant be a supervisor.

[Restrorob]

Maybe I'm missing something here, But when did a drivers license determine whether a supervisor or foreman can perform his (her) job ? Is there a bylaw or something stating a super or foreman must drive the truck ? Why would there be any extra money involved with driving the truck, It's much easier than driving a mower around obstacles ? IMO I would let one of the other workers drive with no extra pay and let the super or foreman continue to perform the satisfactory job they have done for you in the past.
I've been a shop foreman for 2 companies for over 20yrs. and was never told I had to do all the driving on service calls and I don't if I don't feel like it.
Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to open a can of worms here just curious if this is standard practice in the landscaping biz.

[JLL25]

I can see the other guys, mainly the one driving, feeling a bit of contempt towards him. But I still say put the right man in charge of the job whether he can drive or not. The point is, when do we make our money? At the job or on the way there? Drive time is down time essentially it doesnt matter who's in charge to me.

[Gene $immons]

I guess my issue is this:

My crew leader (who has no license, but the most experience) makes the most money.

My driver, feels that he is worthy of just as much money because he "gets the truck there"

I can't afford two leaders on the same crew.

[YardPro]

lol
i have the same problem.
employees not having a liscense is a real problem here..

what i do is this:
a driver will make a dollar or two more per hour than someone else just for having a clean liscense.
i subtract that ammount from my foremans pay..

ie.. if i normally pay a foreman $15.00 per hour, i will only pay him $13-$14 per hour if he has no liscense...

[rodfather]

For us, who ever is driving the truck is in charge...you can't be a foreman without a drivers license.

[Tvov]

I haven't run into this particular problem, but I think I would lean towards rodfather on this. At the very least, the driver is responsible for all the equipment that is being transported. If something falls off, if the trailer (god forbid) disconnects, if something shifts and gets damaged, it is the responsibility of the driver. That actually might be worth a little extra in the paycheck.

I don't know if this response helps at all, lol.

[Precision]

For us, who ever is driving the truck is in charge...you can't be a foreman without a drivers license.

This is the way I do it too. On many levels it works.

I can't see giving responsibility to someone who is not responsible enough to keep their driver's license.

The crew leader (with no license) is someone who is likely to be late for work often and lots of other things that will lead to strife and them being a poor example.

I realize good workers are difficult to find. But general policies regarding DUI, Loss of license and the like are important. Then you need to follow thru on them. No license, then the $15/hr job just became a $11/hr job. More than likely they will quit, but hey you didn't lose the license for them and you probably just lost a liability waiting to happen as well.

[Gene $immons]

Ideally, I would like the driver to be in charge.

But as it turns out, it seems that slow working fat white boys are the only ones who have a license. My Hispanic workers despise working for someone who they don't respect, or think is lazy. You could also call some of them prejudiced. But those are the guys who usually bring me all of my new workers, and those are the guys who do all of the training. I guess I need a Mexican driver.

I have often compared having a drivers license to having a college degree in this business. LOL

[TforTexas]

I would put your most resonsible person in charge of the crew.If he didnt have a license it would be up to him to designate a driver on his crew. But ultimatly he would still bear the responsibility of getting the truck, trailer and equipment to the job site. As foreman he would still see to the equipment being tied down properly,trailer hooked up correctly, and that the driver is obeying traffic laws as he drives from job to job.
Just as you are ultimatly responsible for the same even though your not even with the crew during the day.

[el lobo]

it is one thing to consider your driver as a "leader" it is another to have a guy with a D. L. When hiring it is crucial to have job descriptions. My leaders are drivers and they know to maintain that position and pay they have to have valid D.L. The job descriptions let each crew member know what it will take to become "top gun" as they learn more, they make more (as does the company) once they reach top gun status, I can grow. so I guess the moral of the story is...job descriptions, clear responsibilities and a path to the top.

[Gene $immons]

Well, I thought I'd fire this thread up again.

Same problem again this year, my best guy who has been with me for 5 seasons still does not have a drivers license.

An employee who worked for me in the past, and did a nice job, is coming back this year. He HAS a DL.

Both of these guys want top dollar.

I run a 4 man crew in this truck so two of the "backseat guys" are going to be working for peanuts for me to make this work.

[wissel_landscaping]

what if this guy says without a raise i'm not driving? without a driver the truck and equipment cant get to the job to make the money. your best worker cant do his best job if theres noone to drive the truck. so i will yes the guy should get more money, getting the equipment there is just as important as getting the job done. the foreman may be the better worker but the other guy has the advatage a DL.

[Gene $immons]

what if this guy says without a raise i'm not driving? without a driver the truck and equipment cant get to the job to make the money. your best worker cant do his best job if theres noone to drive the truck. so i will yes the guy should get more money, getting the equipment there is just as important as getting the job done. the foreman may be the better worker but the other guy has the advatage a DL.

Thats exactly the problem.

I don't want to terminate my guy who has five years of experience. And I can't find a quality driver who will do the job for less than what most people want to make.

I can't afford two "main guys" on one crew.

I need a driver for cheap.

[Jpocket]

Genarally the Foreman is a more mature, and knowledgeable, on the opposite the laborer is the one who needs to be told what to do, and be watched to a certian extent. I would rather have the 1st guy driving my truck.

[Gene $immons]

My guy with the experience needs no instruction, he knows how to do everything. His biggest problem is not having a license.

[ProMo]

What does the guy need to do to get his license?

[Gene $immons]

What does the guy need to do to get his license?


I think he maybe owes thousands of dollars. He gets defensive when discussing it. I no longer ask questions.

[Precision]

I think he maybe owes thousands of dollars. He gets defensive when discussing it. I no longer ask questions.

job descriptions.

for me driver and crew leader are a joint task. No DL, no job for the former crew leader. I pay my crew leader / driver much more than the others and I'll be damned if I have to pay two people like that because one is too lazy, stupid, stubborn or whatever to fix the problem with the DL.

[Gene $immons]

job descriptions.

for me driver and crew leader are a joint task. No DL, no job for the former crew leader. I pay my crew leader / driver much more than the others and I'll be damned if I have to pay two people like that because one is too lazy, stupid, stubborn or whatever to fix the problem with the DL.

You are exactly correct. But the guy without his license shows up on time every day, works his butt off, knows all of the properties, and provides me with other workers.

He does drive his truck to work, but without a license, I can't put him behind my wheel.

The guy is a perfect employee, except for the license part.

[PaulJ]

Back about 15 years ago I was hired by a company as a crew leader but there wasn't much difference (if any ) in pay and the other guys had been with the company longer. I was given the leader title because of my age and responsiblity and my other green industry experience. It was never stated that I would drive all the time but I did a lot of it. Sometimes I just didn't feel like driving and one of the other guys liked driving and actually knew the area and route better at first than I did. So I ended up driving about half the time but not because I couln't just because that's what worked for our crew. Not driving made it easier to do other things between stops like phone calls, checking the route sheet and filling out paper work.

[ProMo]

You are exactly correct. But the guy without his license shows up on time every day, works his butt off, knows all of the properties, and provides me with other workers.

He does drive his truck to work, but without a license, I can't put him behind my wheel.

The guy is a perfect employee, except for the license part.

I was that guy over 20 years ago.I was the forman and hired the workers for several years.

[ProMo]

oops It double posted

[hosejockey2002]

I don't have any employees, but if I did I would give a "driving bonus" to the guy with the license. If your foreman makes 15 an hour but can't drive, and another guy on the crew makes 12 an hour and can, take a dollar an hour away from the foreman and give it to the driver. For that dollar an hour he needs to get the rig safely from job to job, and ensures that all equipment is accounted for and properly secured. The foreman would keep overall responsibility for all aspects of work from the time the truck leaves the shop to the time it returns. I see nothing at all wrong with the foreman driving, but to borrow from the fire service, the guy riding shotgun is in charge, period. The driver is responsible for the rig and equipment.
Maybe it will give your guy some financial incentive to regain his license if it costs him $2000 a year to not have it. He may threaten to quit and work somewhere else, but where can he go to make the same money if he doesn't have a license?

[Dirty Water]

How much do you want to keep this guy? Are you willing to work with him on getting his license back?

[Precision]

I don't have any employees, but if I did I would give a "driving bonus" to the guy with the license. If your foreman makes 15 an hour but can't drive, and another guy on the crew makes 12 an hour and can, take a dollar an hour away from the foreman and give it to the driver. For that dollar an hour he needs to get the rig safely from job to job, and ensures that all equipment is accounted for and properly secured. The foreman would keep overall responsibility for all aspects of work from the time the truck leaves the shop to the time it returns. I see nothing at all wrong with the foreman driving, but to borrow from the fire service, the guy riding shotgun is in charge, period. The driver is responsible for the rig and equipment.
Maybe it will give your guy some financial incentive to regain his license if it costs him $2000 a year to not have it. He may threaten to quit and work somewhere else, but where can he go to make the same money if he doesn't have a license?
You can't really take away money from the non driver because he doesn't have a license. It isn't like he lost the license. He hasn't had it. You would be putting yourself in legal jeopardy. You could offer him an extra $1 if he got it back.

I just don't see it happening though.

[hosejockey2002]

How can you get into legal trouble by cutting someone's pay? As long as you pay at least minimum wage and don't violate EOC regulations, you can pretty much pay what your employee will accept. If you explain to him, "look, because you can't drive the truck, I have to give that extra responsibility to someone who can. That extra responsibility is worth extra pay. Because you can't drive, that extra pay has to come from you." I can't see how that is not legal.

[Gene $immons]

How can you get into legal trouble by cutting someone's pay? As long as you pay at least minimum wage and don't violate EOC regulations, you can pretty much pay what your employee will accept. If you explain to him, "look, because you can't drive the truck, I have to give that extra responsibility to someone who can. That extra responsibility is worth extra pay. Because you can't drive, that extra pay has to come from you." I can't see how that is not legal.

That might be a good way to have him start doing a crappy job and resenting the owner.

Now, my problem is trying to convince my insurance company to accept a potential driver who has a good driving record minus a DUI. They are telling me that they won't cover him.