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radracer
01-10-2006, 02:09 PM
Thanks for reading. A good customer of mine wants me to do a brick patio in her yard in a basket weave pattern. The area is 28'-6" X 10'-6" I have come up with a total of 1,376 4"x8" brick pavers but I plan on buying 1,400 just in case. I have never laid a patio like this but I have read about it and I think that this would be a good learning experience for me. Here are the material costs that I have come up with.

Bricks .68 each = $952.00 plus tax
Delivery $65.00
Sand $35.00
Footers $50.00

Total $1,102.00 = $1,180.00 with tax

I will be doing the job by myself. The patio will be in the back yard so I will have to wheel barrow the bricks back there about 75'. I don't think that it will take longer than 24 hours to do but I am not 100% and I dont have a clue as to what I should charge for labor. Do you charge by the square foot, by the hour or what? Please help all replies are appreciated.

Thanks
Harold

JS Landscaping
01-10-2006, 06:36 PM
We usually charge by the sq. ft. for basic paver instalations. Depending on the paver our prices range from $10 to 15$ per sq. ft. Granted this is basic pavers, not with inlays or designs, which are additional expenses factored into the estimate. When you say $50.00 for footers, do you mean your base material? We usually run 6" of Item 4 compacted in 3" lifts and rougly 1.5" of quarry dust. Did you figure in the cost of excavation in your labor estimate. Also be sure to figure in the cost of any extra materials, or machinery that needs to be rented such as a Brick saw and plate compactor, joint sand, paver sealer if nessesary, edge restraint, ect... There are many hidden costs that can come up and before you know it your profit is disapearing.
With your square footage of the patio at roughly 300 sq. ft. I would estimate this prodject out to be 3,000.00 plus tax, charging $10 a square foot being that bricks are the cheapest paver material I believe. Any special pattern the bricks are to be laid in? If you take your time and measure twice cut once you will find that hardscapes can become very profitable. Making sure your base is level and compacted properly is key, and is the most time consuming. Once you get laying pavers, it goes rather quickly. IF ya have any other ?'s feel free to ask....good luck!:waving:



James
JS LANDSCAPING

radracer
01-10-2006, 06:46 PM
Thanks for the quick reply. When I said footers I meant edge restraint. The book tha I read said to just put 1" leveling sand. Is this not a propper method? You are right there are a few things that I left out but it still seems profitable. The pattern would be a basket weave pattern. Thanks again for the reply.

Thanks
Harold

Dirty Water
01-10-2006, 07:23 PM
Thanks for the quick reply. When I said footers I meant edge restraint. The book tha I read said to just put 1" leveling sand. Is this not a propper method? You are right there are a few things that I left out but it still seems profitable. The pattern would be a basket weave pattern. Thanks again for the reply.

Thanks
Harold

Harold, your going to want to excavate out at least 6" of the native soil and bring in some sort of crushed aggeragete as the base, 1/2" or 1/4" or something.

Spread it out, screed it off and compact it in 3 inch lifts, for a small patio like that you could use a hand compactor, though renting a whacker (Usually around $50 a day) would sure make it easier.

Your last 1" should be sand or stone dust to set your final grade. Don't forget to give it a slight bit of fall to one side for drainage.

JS Landscaping
01-10-2006, 09:35 PM
What kind of edge restraint are you using? What we use up here runs about a dollar a foot for flex edging. The patio will definatly need to be laid on item 4 or a coarse aggregate and compacted in 3" lifts or within no time it will heave and sink. What book said it only needs 1" of bedding sand?!? Usually you set the pavers in bedding sand or crusher dust 1" thick ontop of your compacted base. To add a nice touch to the patio run a soldier corse around the border, and/or run your basket weave pattern on a 45 degree angle to create a nice effect, but it invovles a bit more cutting. All depends on your clients wants/needs for this prodject. I think an estimate of 3000 is very reasonable, and will leave you with a nice profit and cushion incase of increased time or any other obsticles you may run into........good luck:waving:



James
JS LANDSCAPING

YardPro
01-11-2006, 07:21 AM
that is a really big project to be your first one.....


the total price should be at about $15K or more.

GreenMonster
01-11-2006, 08:10 AM
that is a really big project to be your first one.....


the total price should be at about $15K or more.

Wow. You can get 15k for a 300 s.f. holland patio???? I'm loading up and heading your way!

Pretty good advise here. Rent yourself a plate compacter and cut-off saw, possibly a skid or compact tractor for a day to do the excavation

1. Excavate native soil, 9-10"
2. compact sub-base, and lay down fabric before installing base.
3. Install and compact 3/4" crushed gravel w/fines. compact in 2-3" lifts
4. Install 1" of concrete sand for paver bedding -- use 1" electric conduit to screed off. Don't use stonedust for your bedding.
5. lay pavers in basket weave. I would also do a soldier course as earlier mentioned. Good size patio would look good with a sailor course too.
6. Install edging (into gravel, not sand)
7. Compact pavers to set into sand. cover the pavers with landscape fabric to prevent chipping the hollands.
8. Install stabilizing sand -- read the directions -- don't get it wet until it is ALL of the surface of the pavers!
9. Post pics on lawnsite

Make sure you get the right spikes for your edging. If you go to home depot and get galvy spikes, the diameter is too big. You need to get the spiral spikes from the same supplier as your edging. I like the flexible black plastic vs. aluminum.

For your pitch, 1/8"-1/4"/ft should be fine.

radracer
01-11-2006, 11:12 AM
Thanks to everyone for your replies and advice. I have learned a lot.
JS landscaping.. It was one of those Home Depot books that recomended only 1" of sand. I will have to find another source for my educational material I guess. Again thanks for the pointers I will put them to good use.

Thanks
Harold

DVS Hardscaper
01-11-2006, 11:26 AM
One of the worst thing you CAN do is unit pricing, aka "square foot pricing".

All our jobs are priced based on materials and estimated time.

Lets back up here, first. Rad said he needs 1376 pavers. Ok, take that number and add 10% to that quantity to compensate for the 'waste factor'. Its a lot easier to have left overs than it is to spend drive time going to the supplier for 15 more pavers.

Also, no need to excavate 9-10" deep, and 6" is too shallow, assuming its a perfectly level grade. Do exactly eight inches and you'll be perfect. (5" for crusher run base, 1" for bedding sand, 2 3/8" for thickness of pavers) Do not use electric conduit for screeding. It BOWS!!! Use a ridgid pipe. We use 1" od steel. We do not want divits, bird baths or unintentional swails in our pavements. It should be perfectly level and consistant.


Back to pricing.

Since it sounds as if this is your first job, you will probably not make much profit. You'll have to do MANY jobs to get through the learning curve.

Especially being that u have to wheel-barr the materials, you need to estimate how long it will take you tp perform each task.

With paverwork, even a simple patio, there are a ton of variables. Look, here we are talking about a small patio and it requires all wheel barrowing! There is always something. Whether its access, staging, burial of roof down spouts / sump pump lines, and so on.

Each individual jobs needs the following accounted for:

-Equipment load time at yard/shop
-Equipment unload time at job site
-Travel time to and from, per employee, per day
-Each and Every particle of material
-Time for removing and re-installing the owners section of fence
-Time for laying out the patio with marking paint
-Time for excavating. if the job has a walk out basement...that means they have a hill going to the front. If its fall or spring...that will will be a greasy muddy, mess. that hill will eat time.
-Time for installing aggragate base. Can the aggregate be brought in on a tandem, or is access and staging so tight that you must bring it in on your truck and hovel it off?
-Time for laying pavers and cutting
-Time for regrading/seeding
-Time for daily clean up. Usually takes one man about an hr to clean the trash and shovel soil/mud off the street.
-Time loading and unloading equipment when job is complete.

The landscape and hardscape industry IS ALL ABOUT TIME TIME TIME. We are SELLING TIME! If there are any Vanderkoi seminars in your area, I highly urge everyone to attend :)

Sure many of these tasks are routine and do not vary much from job to job. But as a thorough and conscienous business person, you really need to itemize the estimated production hrs of each task when calculating job cost.
And this way, if you encounter a problem, you can see exactly where you fell short on your estimating and then you'll know where to improve on, whether its in the job costing sector or field production.

Many veretan guys may know their averages. But it took them many years and many jobs to gather this intelligence. So for people that are new...its best to price a job based on estimated materials and production hrs. heck, I been doing hardscapes for 9 years and thats the only way we do it!

GreenMonster
01-11-2006, 01:37 PM
Do not use electric conduit for screeding. It BOWS!!!

EMT won't. Good point though, it should be metal & rigid.

Many good points DVS about the little things that add hours to the job once it's all said and done.

I still say 9-10" excavation. 6" base + 1" sand + 2 3/8" paver = 8 3/8". Round that up to 9" and you're in good shape. IMO, a little more is better than a little less.

Harold, although the Home Depot library may not be the best place for instructional books, are you sure it's not saying 1" of sand on top of the compacted agg base?

neversatisfiedj
01-11-2006, 02:32 PM
www.ICPI.org

Download the pavement standards

sheshovel
01-12-2006, 11:16 PM
I think you need to charge more as your work gets better and you gain expertise .
Then you not only charge for time..but for experience and good craftsmanship.

YardPro
01-13-2006, 07:35 AM
Wow. You can get 15k for a 300 s.f. holland patio???? I'm loading up and heading your way!




I thought he saod it was it was 1,300 sq ft

dutchman
01-13-2006, 04:29 PM
Is there any good learning material about laying pavers. Book or CD.....Dutchman

GreenMonster
01-14-2006, 09:11 AM
I thought he saod it was it was 1,300 sq ft

Oh, you need to charge more then, YardPro! LOL

JS Landscaping
01-14-2006, 11:58 AM
How come not to use stone dust as your paver set base? I would say 90% of the other guys around here are using extra fine stone dust. We have been using it on top of our Item 4 base for all of our past prodjects and have not had one shift or sink yet. What is the benifit of using mason sand? Im always lookin to learn more and open to any ideas or suggestions:waving:



James
JS LANDSCAPING

LandscapePro
01-14-2006, 12:50 PM
radracer,

Will the paver area join with an existing concrete patio? Or will it be a "free-standing" area?

Don't worry about "heave". In our part of the world it isn't an issue. Down here 4 to 6 inches of compacted base + an inch to an inch and a half of sand is the norm.

Use aluminum edge restraint and remember to excavate an area at least a foot larger than the area you're trying to fill.

JS, Down this way mason sand is much easier to come by than "quarry dust". Any concrete place has it for around 35 bucks a yard.

Mike
La. Landscape Contractor #2576

DVS Hardscaper
01-16-2006, 09:27 AM
[QUOTE=JS Landscaping]How come not to use stone dust as your paver set base? I would say 90% of the other guys around here are using extra fine stone dust. We have been using it on top of our Item 4 base for all of our past prodjects and have not had one shift or sink yet. What is the benifit of using mason sand? Im always lookin to learn more and open to any ideas or suggestions:



James -

Stone dust is too fine. technically, it's not even an option. You must use a CRUSHER RUN aggregate. Now it has different names in different states. In MD, its called 'CRUSHER RUN'. We use CR8, which is 3/4" gravel down to dust. The larger aggregate creates a MUCH tighter compaction.

Do not concern yourself with what "other guys" in your area are using! Concern yourself with setting yourself apart from the others and being the best. You can find these specs on ICPI's web page.

in my opinion stone dust is used for two things and two things only.
1. Stone dust is used for backfilling pipes where you must be careful not to use an aggregate that will jab a hole in the piping.
2. Stone Dust is used for setting stepping stones in place.

We too have patios and walks that we did in our rookie days with stone dust. All is good. BUT IT'S STILL THE INCORRECT MATERIAL! Also, when a patio is improperly constructed.....it usually takes 3-5 years to see the effects of improper construction and or use of improper materials.

Do not use MASON SAND for any paver work. the sand to be used is WASHED CONCRETE SAND. The difference is, concrete sand has an angular composition and locks together. Where mason sand has a rounded composition and does not lock. Think of gumballs in a gumball machine.

These subjects have surfaced on this website a few times. Do a search and you'll find lotsa valuable information!

GreenMonster
01-16-2006, 09:41 AM
^^^^^^
true stuff.

Another reason not to use stone dust for the bedding is that increases the effect of efflorescense.

I've also heard guys using 1/4" -1/2" for bedding sand. Well, when you compact the pavers, and they drop 3/8", that's really not enough bedding now, is it?

DVS Hardscaper
01-16-2006, 09:57 AM
I mis-read.

I didnt realize he was referring to using dust for bedding purposes.

That is absolutely a big NO NO.

Anyone utilizing such a practice MUST cease and desist NOW. For reasons I mentioned and for reasons Green Monster mentioned.

LandscapePro
01-16-2006, 10:18 PM
" Do not use MASON SAND for any paver work. the sand to be used is WASHED CONCRETE SAND. The difference is, concrete sand has an angular composition and locks together. Where mason sand has a rounded composition and does not lock. Think of gumballs in a gumball machine. "

I guess the concrete is screwing the bricklayers around here then. I took the time to look at a sample of both right off the yard under a microscope. No real difference in the structure of the two. The concrete sand had a redish tint and was slightly larger in grain size. The Mason sand was whiteish to clear, but the structure was the same.

We refer to the base material as SB2 down here. It's slightly larger than 3/4 all the way to fines.

Mike
La. Landscape Contractor #2576

SONSCAPES
01-16-2006, 10:46 PM
Green Monster, What Is A Sailor Course?

GreenMonster
01-17-2006, 07:56 AM
Green Monster, What Is A Sailor Course?

Sailor course would be a border course lengthwise. In this case, on a large patio, I think the two border courses makes the border look bigger on a large area and defines it better.

I like using two courses for border on the bigger installs. Of course, with the new pavers that are different shaped 6x6, 6x8, etc. I don't know if technically that would be a sailor course, or called double soldier, double sailor, or something else :confused:

SONSCAPES
01-17-2006, 08:33 AM
[QUOTE=GreenMonster]Sailor course would be a border course lengthwise.


I AM A LITTLE CONFUSED SO THE SAILOR COURSE GOES INSIDE OR OUTSIDE THE SOLDIER COURSE. I AM GUESSING INSIDE. THANKS FOR THE HELP

GreenMonster
01-17-2006, 08:53 AM
I AM A LITTLE CONFUSED SO THE SAILOR COURSE GOES INSIDE OR OUTSIDE THE SOLDIER COURSE. I AM GUESSING INSIDE. THANKS FOR THE HELP

Well, I don't really think there are "rules" which is the nice thing about this work -- creative freedom. but I would say you would most typically have the soldier course first, then sailor, then paver field.

SONSCAPES
01-17-2006, 09:05 AM
Thank You !

JS Landscaping
01-19-2006, 07:55 PM
Thanks for the tips guy on not using stone dust. Definatly going to start using the washed mason sand instead this season. Is using Item 4 the best base material tho? Now that I know I was wrong with the stone dust as a bedding material, what about the base material?




James
JS LANDSCAPING

radracer
01-19-2006, 08:20 PM
LandscapePro;

It will be butting up to the back of a house and about the last three feet of length will butt against the pad for the A/C. I appreciate everyones advice I have been busy and have not been able to look at this thread. I bid on the job and I am just waiting on a reply from the home owner. I will let everyone know how it goes.