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View Full Version : Question about drains and pop-ups....


Drafto
01-11-2006, 03:56 PM
When I took the ICPI certification course Russ Heitman was the instructor, he briefly described routing downspouts under walkways and using pop-up and drain boxes. Have any of you done an install this way? I am doing some research on it and have come up a little short.

Does anyone have a good detail of how to do this?
How deep does the drainage stone go?
Does the installation need any fabic?

These are questions I have that a simple detailed drawing would answer.

If anyone has anything, I appreciate it.

Dan

Drafto
01-11-2006, 11:27 PM
No one yet?

treedoc1
01-12-2006, 07:32 PM
Home Depot or Lowes has the pop-ups for $10

Use 4" black corrugated solid or 4" white...your choice.

Keep a slope for drainage, make sure the water continues too drain away from the foundation. 2 weeks of spring growth and you will never see the pop-uo.

I charge $125 for a 10 section with pop up. Each downspout should have one. Extra length is an additional $8 a foot. Excavating under a sidewalk adds another $100 to the cost.

Do not overthink a simple project

Drafto
01-12-2006, 08:27 PM
So I just plumb the downspout to a tee, the tee goes up to a pop-up and down to drain on 3/4 clean buried stone? Is that overkill?

Dan

PSUturf
01-12-2006, 10:14 PM
Drafto:
I do exactly what you said and it works. I use a slotted, green, 4" cap instead of the pop up. Attach it to pipe with a couple of screws at soil level. The grass will grow over it but it will still do its job. I was always concerned about the pop up getting stuck up after a few years.

SCL
01-12-2006, 10:59 PM
Pop ups will break. Also not very strong. Look into the small 8" drain baskets with agreen grate. Rain bubbles out, no mechanical problems.

cgland
01-12-2006, 11:01 PM
Only problem with the big grates is that they will be too noticeable. Grass will cover the 4" pop-ups and hide them without hindering their function.

Chris

Drafto
01-12-2006, 11:02 PM
How deep do you excavate for your 3/4" stone? No basin or drain box or anything? Any fabric around the stone? It seems to easy......

Dan

sheshovel
01-12-2006, 11:06 PM
Are you asking about installing under a paver patio?To drain the downspout?Or in a lawn?

Drafto
01-12-2006, 11:14 PM
Are you asking about installing under a paver patio?To drain the downspout?Or in a lawn?

If you look in the pictures from my driveway post, I have 4 downspout I have to get under the driveway, away from the house.

Dan

sheshovel
01-12-2006, 11:33 PM
You will need to get that water all the way ot to the street of that is possible,Just 3" or 4" solid black flex with downspout adapters.It is rather easy
you don't have to use any fabric if the lines are solid and not french drains with holes in them.in fact you don't need drain rock for a solid downspout drain line if you make sure your line is well buried and the soil is compacted below and around your line.that means filling,wetting, filling ,tamping,filling more if nessesary.At least at
6"below the lawn if you can get the grade to drain with 6".If not what I suggest is to get the lines in the flower beds along outside front of garages and out,I cant tell by the pics where you have to go to get the water out what does the side of the prop look like?The street have a street drain?Is there a street at all?
Can you do drain sump holes somewhere?

Drafto
01-12-2006, 11:37 PM
I think this post was supposed to be about drain sump holes, I just didn't know thats what they were called. To the street is not an option, not enough run off, I could get them around the sides of the house, but the 2 in the middles I was going to do the pop-up in the in-field grass in the pics.

Dan

cgland
01-13-2006, 07:24 AM
Dan- We put about a foot of clean stone (wrapped) under the pop-up w/ a 4" round grate at soil level. The grass will cover it in no time.

Chris

Drafto
01-13-2006, 08:59 AM
Thanks Chris. For some reason I was thinking I should have a 4' deep hole with stone in it or somehting, at least that was the visual I got when Russ was teaching the course, but it was not to scale.

Dan

UNISCAPER
01-13-2006, 10:54 AM
Don't use snake pipe (flexible). Aside from being able to crush shut, that junk usually has slots where fiberous rtoots crawl in and eventually block the pipe. We use ONLY SDR-35, all white gluable pipe. That prevents roots from entering the line. Don't use Michael Jackson pipe because it is not gluable, and still can crush.

As far as pop ups, the only time we use them is when we cannot core drill the B-6-12 curbing to dump the water on the street. All pop ups usually break, and require water pressure to open. Dumping the drain in the street is the best way to go. There are gutter connectors available from NDS, who makes all the drain accessories. Just run the pipe under the downspout, connect it, run the pipe under any walks you have, and out to the street. We charge $25 per foot to punch under walkways and $85.00 per core drilled through the street.

Drafto
01-13-2006, 11:28 AM
Don't use snake pipe (flexible). Aside from being able to crush shut, that junk usually has slots where fiberous rtoots crawl in and eventually block the pipe. We use ONLY SDR-35, all white gluable pipe. That prevents roots from entering the line. Don't use Michael Jackson pipe because it is not gluable, and still can crush.

As far as pop ups, the only time we use them is when we cannot core drill the B-6-12 curbing to dump the water on the street. All pop ups usually break, and require water pressure to open. Dumping the drain in the street is the best way to go. There are gutter connectors available from NDS, who makes all the drain accessories. Just run the pipe under the downspout, connect it, run the pipe under any walks you have, and out to the street. We charge $25 per foot to punch under walkways and $85.00 per core drilled through the street.

Thanks for the reply Bill I always look forward to picking your brain. I don't believe I will have the run off to get to the street. The house is new construction so when they are done finished grading I will have a better idea. But once I drop under my driveway foundation I don't think I could make it to the street. So I am back to using some type of basin or box with a pop-up. Does a drawing or detail exist for this type of application or does everyone just do it their own way?

Dan

UNISCAPER
01-13-2006, 11:44 AM
Dan:

All I have seen is some boiler plate stuff, very generic on blue prints. All you need to remember is water runs down hill, and ideally if you can get 2" of fall over 8', you can't go wrong. I have dropped some drain lines in on level runs, I don't like that, but, it never freezes here, and with house/street elevations sometimes we are left with no choice. Anyhow, yuo should be able to figure it out once you see what's in front of you.

Drafto
01-13-2006, 11:45 AM
Thanks Bill.

Dan

DVS Hardscaper
01-16-2006, 09:45 AM
I personally do NOT believe in pop up drains.

And going on 10 yrs in hardscape biddness...we have NOT layed a finger on one yet, expect when we have ripped existing ones out due to poor operation.

In my opinion, pop up drains are a Harry Homeowner item. They are for people that do not understand the FACT that water FLOWS downhill and lack in trenching equipment!

If you cant get the flow you need....then I believe a french drain is needed. Sure it's expensive. But its a guaranteed fail proof fix.

The reason I ido not like pop up drains is because I have seen them freeze shut. I have seen them get covered in thatch and silt and snow. And not function properly.

With daylighted 4-inch pipe or a properly built french drain...there are not components to open and close. There is nothing that can possibly go wrong.

Now, i know someone here will respond with "we use them for 5 yrs and have had no problems"!

That may be true. But...most homeowners forget they exist and if they do have a problem...they're probably not even aware there is a problem.

When we do a job that involves water (water=liability), I like to go to bed KNOWING that there no way that our drain system could possibly fail.

My Opinion = Pop ups are a Harry Homeowner product. They should not be used by a competent professional.

Drafto
01-16-2006, 09:49 AM
I personally do NOT believe in pop up drains.

And going on 10 yrs in hardscape biddness...we have NOT layed a finger on one yet, expect when we have ripped existing ones out due tot covered poor operation.

In my opinion, pop up drains are a homeowner item. They are for people that do not understand that water FLOWS downhill!

If you cant get the flow you need....then I believe a french drain is needed.

The reason I ido not like pop up drains is because I have seen them freeze shut. I have seen them get covered in thatch and silt. And not function properly.

With 4-inch pipe...there are not components to open and close. There is nothing that can possibly go wrong.

Now, i know someone here will respond with "we use them for 5 yrs and have had no problems"!

That may be true. But...most homeowners forget they exist and if they do have a problem...they're probably not even aware there is a problem.

When we do a job that involves water (water=liability), I like to go to bed KNOWING that there no way that our drain system could possibly fail.

My Opinion = Pop ups are a Harry Homeowner product. They should not be used by a competent professional.


I can get the water downhill by wrapping it around the house and pushing it towards someone elses property. I figured having that many 90 turns would require too many cleanouts and failure proned to clogging. I like what you are saying DVS, and I agree with some of it, but it seems to almost be a standard of our industry to do the pop-up.

Dan

UNISCAPER
01-16-2006, 10:05 AM
Andrew does not take into consideration different soil types. French drains, as the definition is written, is a drain that typically measures 12"x18" deep by however long, wrapped in fabric, with a perforated pipe on top of 2" of gravel, then 10" of gravel is poured over the rest of the pipe to bury it. The remaining 6" of trench depth is filled with dirt and sodded.seeded/planted over. In most french drain applications, there is no provision to daylight the pipe, and perculation is how the water is taken from the trench.

Those drains work well in soils where you actually have perculation. In soils like we see every day, this system might work well in sandy loams around the beach communities, but would fail miserably in areas further inland where we see allot of expansible clays. In those situations, placing a pipe inside a french drain near a house foundation would cause soil plasticity (breakdown) and allow the slab to fail when the soil under the load bearing walls broke down.

The next thing that would occur is the house would begin to crack apart, and, some lawyer would drag you into the suite because as the installer of the drain system, you were in effect it's designer, therefore you will be held liable for the damage. If you had an engineer design the drains, and all you did was install them as per the plan, most of the liability would shift to the engineer.

In cases where we can't daylight a pipe, there is no real other choice but to use a pop up, as water would sit dormant in a trench for weeks, sometimes months until it dried up.

DVS Hardscaper
01-16-2006, 10:14 AM
Dan - this is where a french drain comes into play. No need for snaking a million 90-degree turns.


"I like what you are saying DVS, and I agree with some of it, but it seems to almost be a standard of our industry to do the pop-up."



And let me tell you why it seems this way. It seems this way because the industry IS SATURATED with unqualified lawn jockeys doing work that they have no background or knowledge in.

They simply do not know better.

Water involves grading and excavating knowledge. Many folks venturing into this work are people that cut yards, get bored, they think there is money in this work, they think its easy money....when in reality it requires construction, excavating, and grading expertise. And if they posessed suck knowledge...then why were they mowing yards in the first place!

Also, its my opinion that many scapers are NOT aware of the liability affiliated with that pop up not opening. That liability carries with you as long as you live if you're a sole proprietor, and as long as you are in business if you're a corporation.

I like to do something and be 100% confident that its done and we're 100% out of the picture.

To each his own :)

I am not here to argue with anyone. But I am trying to open eyes. Like I said, we have been doing hardscapes for 10 yrs this April, and have worked in backyards of old row houses where there is NO where to route the water, and worked in backyards where there his a upcline grade, and in yards where the existing grade is perfectly level.....and to this day I have ALWAYS found a solution. As well as seen too many failed pop ups done by others.

Do as you believe. All I am intending to do is shed light on the fact that you can almost always find a solution without depending on any mechanical devices. And I listed what can go wrong. And I am shedding light on the liability.

Its like plants sold at home depot. they sell small plants so homeowners can transport them in their car trunks. Well they sell pop ups for homeowners that do not have the grading/trenching skills or equipment to properly address the issue.

Happy Scapin in 2006!

cgland
01-16-2006, 04:59 PM
I believe DVS is correct to an extent. We always try to daylight or run to the curb, but in instances where it is not possible to do so, we install pop-ups. Now, I get the feeling that people think that there is something that "pops up" when excess water is present. (maybe I'm wrong) The pop-ups we install are basically standpipes that, when an excess of water is present, the water percolates(sp) to the surface and drains away per the direction of your grading. Sort of like a mini french drain that has an above ground overflow. This is what ICPI and it's instructors preach.

P.S. in 8 years, we have only installed 3.

Chris

Drafto
01-16-2006, 08:52 PM
I am processing all of your "much more experienced" opinons. I think I am concerned about what I am trying to do with this water. Maybe my best option it to let it hit the driveway like it was designed to do when it was asphalt. It may be easier to go back b/c of polymeric sand washing complaints year after year, then the other "what-if" senarios DVS has brought up. I guess I am wondering if the extra expense to the customer and the possible headaches are worth changing the way it is. I would rather lose sleep until the job is done wondering what to do, then lose sleep afterwards wondering what COULD happen.

Dan

Dirty Water
01-16-2006, 09:04 PM
Are you guys referring to these?

http://www.zwwstore.com/img/pro/POPUP.jpg

We do a bit of drainwork, and I've never used them.

Most of the time if there was no way to daylight the drain, we will dig out a 4'-5' deep drywell, line it with fabric and then backfill it with drainrock, lay another layer of fabric and have the last 6" be native soil.

We run our drain lines right into the middle of the drainrock.

It would take a pretty serious amount of runoff to overwhelm that as long as your not in solid clay.

Drafto
01-16-2006, 09:06 PM
Are you guys referring to these?

http://www.zwwstore.com/img/pro/POPUP.jpg

We do a bit of drainwork, and I've never used them.

Most of the time if there was no way to daylight the drain, we will dig out a 4'-5' deep drywell, line it with fabric and then backfill it with drainrock, with the last 6" being native soil.

It would take a pretty serious amount of runoff to overwhelm that as long as your not in solid clay.

95% of our work is in mostly clay, not solid clay, but could almost be classifed as such. That drywell info, 4'-5' was what I was looking for.

Dan

DVS Hardscaper
01-18-2006, 10:47 AM
My other concern has been this (and I am not sure if I know how to put my thoughts into text, but I'll try):

Pop Ups are used where the ground is leven and where one can not get a positive downhill grade thus allowing a pipe to daylight.

Ok, so if the pop up is located on level ground, and it does it's thing, then where does the water go once it comes out of the pipe?

Does it pond up if the ground is high in clay content?

Does it soak into the ground but turn the yard into a swamp?

See, in the area of where we are....these are problems I have seen after others have installed pop ups.

Bill mentioned clay content and some valid issues. Well, if thats the case, you simply match the size of the frence drain in accordance to the volume of water entering it. High Clay? A lot of water? Make the basin BIGGER!

UNISCAPER
01-18-2006, 06:34 PM
Good points Andrew. The issue comes when you have a tract style environment where by you got 10 feet from the lot line which usually is divided by a masonry or wooden fence, and little to no fall to the street.

If we opened a french drain up to the point where it took everythign we threw at it, we would be dealing with broken down sub soil qualities and eventually crack a slab. So, we would run the drain to the front walk, pour a small pad around the op up, and let the water roll over the sidewalk to the gutter. In an ideal world, we core drill the B-6-12 curbing and punch a hunk of 4" SDR-35 out the the street.

On the worst case scenario, one of the few basements we have dug in a beach community, we placed 540' of 6" SDR-35, and another 430' or 4" SDR-35 connected to two 55 gallon outdoor sump pumps, which had 3" discharge lines on check valves run up hill the the street.

Way overkill in my opinion, but that's what was accepted to proceed with the work.

I'm thinking a french drain is going to work on normal sized lots, not these over priced postage stamps we have to work with here. Plus we have no freeze issues. I understand totally what you're saying about the pop up and getting frozen shut though. You would almost need some type of sistern to collect water in that case.