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View Full Version : Bobcat T190 vs Deer CT322


westernpa
01-16-2006, 10:25 PM
Hi fellas. I do mostly site prep cut and fill work for flat concrete projects so most work is done in dirt, clay and occasionally shale in my parts. After looking at breakout power and tip loads it seems that the T190 or the CTL322 fits the bill for the work that we do. The CAT is just out of the ballpark with cost at the moment. After reading lots of old posts from last year about some issues with the T190 (mostly lack of power and some undercarriage roller concerns) it seems these two issues have been adressed with 61hp motors and sealed rollers. I know quite a few Bobcat people but none with a CTL machine. We did a quick lot demo of both machines but with winter set in we can not get the machines to a job site to give them the once over.

It looks like lots of experience on the boards here so I was hoping somebody could update their likes/dislikes of each machine if they have had any seat time on either one or both of these machines. Also things like serviceability are a bonus too. Looking forward to reading some reports!

UNISCAPER
01-16-2006, 11:57 PM
You are doing mostly digging/grading. Of the two, go Bobcat. If you can get each dealr to do it, order a demo on the same job with both machines. The one that works best stays, and the looser goes back home where it came from. That in my opiunion is the absolute best way to compare what you need and what werks best.

ksss
01-17-2006, 02:51 AM
I have not run the Deere. I ran a bobcat T190 this fall. I had run an 03 in 03 and I thought maybe they had improved. There were some improvements but not many. I would strongly suggest getting the Bobcat pilot controls for demo over the AHC controls this is my opinion. The 190 continues to be underpowered and with the AHC was very stick heavy. This was to the point that running became a workout. I ran a bobcat T250 with pilots in AZ. much better machine. The only improvement I noticed on the new 190 verse the old was it didn't make as much hydrualic noise going over relief as the older model. I certainly wouldn't buy one without running it on one of your jobs first. If you can wait CASE will be releasing its smaller tracked machine in the 2nd quarter. It is based on the 440. The prototype was a great performer although it had noise issues it was the strongest machine in it class. It might be worth demoing if the time frame works for you.

Tigerotor77W
01-17-2006, 08:51 PM
I would suggest you run the Deere a bit, but talk to a few users of Deere's 200 Series II machines. I think you'll find that the Deere is much more powerful, but Uniscaper's comment about the Bobcat being a "better" digging machine is not unfound. Deere boom arms (and NH arms) are notorious for having several inches of sway after much use; therefore, the boom arms are more suited to lifting, say many contractors. However -- it is very important to note that Deere will likely a) refute this statement and b) offer that Bobcat's arms are prone to cracking. This is why I suggest you talk to some 200 Series II users, whose machines are already very similar to the current 300-series in design. If those machines have much boom sway after significant use, the 300 series will likely have it as well (not guaranteed, but likely).

There are several more tips I would like to address here, but I'm on a tight schulede as I'm back at school. Digdeep would be more than a great source of information as well.

westernpa
01-18-2006, 10:34 AM
We hope to have a demo with each machine in the next few weeks. Unfortunately we can not wait for the Case to come out. As far as arm sway or cracking goes our radial arm 863 does have some arm sway but no cracking. One operator did manage to crack one of our buckets up though and he was hard on the machine all the way around ( and no longer with us). Now I was told of some concerns with JD machines and excessive wear on hinge pins and trouble changing them out. Any truth to that or is that just brand bashing? BTW I was not told this by the Bobcat rep.

Tigerotor77W
01-18-2006, 07:52 PM
I can't comment on the excessive wear on hinge pins as I don't know the answer. Some of the users here do have JD skids or CTLs and love them, but their hours won't be high enough yet to give you a definitive answer.

Personally... I think the Deere machine may be better for your needs, though I remain partial to Bobcat (and Cat) for other size machines (S250, for instance).

Canon Landscaping
01-19-2006, 05:13 PM
I have demoed both machines and ran them for about 10 hours the Deere is hands down the better machine. The Deere will keep pushing dirt until it has rolled over the bucket and into the operators compartment the bobcat runs out of power before this happens.

Tigerotor77W
01-19-2006, 06:12 PM
*sigh* When will Bobcat learn...

Canon, did you try stalling the engine on a Deere or a Bobcat? What control system did the Bobcat have? Was the T190 a K-series machine?

all ferris
01-19-2006, 07:51 PM
Just wait till you have to start fixing things on the deere! I work part time for a logger who uses a 270 to move logs and it's a piece of crap. It has all sorts of engine power but has terrible hydraulics. This machine has a new motor at 2200hrs, had numerous hyd. leaks, been re-pinned because of boom sway, park break doesn't work, and even now the hydraulics won't work till the machine has run for about 5 minutes. This machine will not pick up something up that is too heavy because it doesn't have enough hydraulic power. Maybe it's just this one machine???

Tigerotor77W
01-19-2006, 11:31 PM
It sounds like just the one machine. Deere, like NH (in the first run of Lx865 and 885s, before they lowered the boom breakout force), usually overpowers their machines to the point where they can lift their tipping load (on forks!) with no problem. This may be a little unsafe, but given their stability, it's unusual that you're having this sort of difficulty.

Service may be another story; I don't know.

westernpa
01-20-2006, 05:58 AM
All Ferris is that a new machine you are talking about? I know that a lot of problems come from lack of operator "know how" . For example our one operator (now ex-employee) expected to roll through just about anything and if he couldn't he would sometimes ram the heck out of it be it rocks, tree stumps, etc. Talk about beating the snot out of a machine! And he wondered why we had some hydraulic leaks, arm sway and such. Always ran at full throttle too.

UNISCAPER
01-20-2006, 09:42 AM
Deere based it machine platform back from the days when New Holland was making Deere machines and the only difference was the decals. They made changes but it's still the same concept. That said, there has not been a one of those style machines I have seen desigated for excavation rather than lifting that has stable lifting arms after a few years. I one extreme incident, a guy unloading concrete highway dividers from a flat bed did a hard 90° turn on flat pavement as unloaded the barriers. The arms bound and the machine swayed so much it ended up dumping on it's side. I'll admit that was a stupid thing to do, but if those arms did not have as much play in them at the time he turned, the load would have dropped to the ground, lowered the center of gravity, and would not have gone on it's side.

I'll stick by what I said earlier. If you are mainly lifting, such as with the planting of trees, removing pavers from a flat bed or dump truck, a NH or Deere machine will work best. If you are primarily digging and lifint occasionally, Bobcat, Case, Cat, and a few others are the machines to be looking at. Remember they all work tight and well brand new. Find on that has 1500 hours on it and then do your testing and comparisons.

ksss
01-20-2006, 01:01 PM
It seems that you hear about loader arm slop in those Deere machines quite often. Personally I am not convinced that the 300 series has fixed the problems of the first two series machines, but I have been holding my tongue until I have heard more from 300 series owners.

As I said earlier I found the T190 underpowered. I read in the recent Worksaver mag that K series made some changes but it does not appear to be much more powerful ,8% if I recall correctly. They did add an extra roller to the undercarriage. I don't think 8% is going to fix the power issue I had with the machine. However, I am used to 85hp machines so maybe between that and my altitude they appear more doggie than they really are.

jd270
01-20-2006, 04:16 PM
i have a jd 270 and i really like it it has the same motor as our 555 crawler loader and it will pick up a house i have now mounted a leon 9 ft 770 dozer blade on it and it pushes great i also use a 84inc tooth bucket to dig with and my arms arent loose at all but i do grease them a lot it has a lot of power it worlds better than the bobcat 873 i had before .the blade i used to have on my jd 4630 i can get more done faster with the 270

UNISCAPER
01-27-2006, 02:49 AM
I have now had the opportunity to see a 322 in action. We were at Monster Jam 2006 at Qualcom stadium. FYI, the non sponsered Cadilac Escalade from Mokena Illinois took everything. Even beat Grave Digger....

Anyhow, they had 2 322's moving dirt for the feature event. The machine stalled 4 times when scopping, and once was placed into a full tilt turn and the engine boged, belched black smoke, then too a second to get back up to RPM.

Since I was not down on the track nor in the machine I can't say for sure, but if this thing stalls digging ABS dirt (already been scooped) imagine what it is going to do in virgin soil where you need the stones to break it out....

Scag48
01-27-2006, 03:09 AM
I love the anti stall on our Cat. I've yet to stall the machine and it's near impossible to bog it down at full RPM's.

Tigerotor77W
01-27-2006, 09:14 AM
Uniscaper, probably a problem with the operator... you can stall a Bobcat by spinning the machine around too fast -- on pavement. Can't with a Case, but it's still funny to watch.

Was it both machines stalling or just one? And by "stall," do you mean kill the engine? (Some companies use "stall" as a "cessation in movement": that is, the engine still runs, but the machine isn't pushing any more dirt. Such is the case if you take a D3 and run it into a dirt pile that's the dize of a 797 -- the machine won't move, but the engine won't die, either.)

Squizzy246B
01-27-2006, 09:49 AM
When I first got the 246 I stalled it dead...twice on the first job...I got out, swore at it and kicked the tyres....it hasn't done it since.:rolleyes:

Seriously, the Cat anti-stall system is great as long as the machine doesn't sit around for months without a run. Just a tip.

Raced over to a LS 170 the other day to chat with the operator...he liked the machine heaps but reckoned it was a pig to work on....was also worried about pin wear after 580 hours.

UNISCAPER
02-01-2006, 10:26 PM
I mean both engines on both machines from 2 different operators hit a pile, rocked the bucket back, the rear of the machine lifted slightly, and before the operators could get out of the pile, the engines were dead. They belched a black puff when they restarted.

Tigerotor77W
02-02-2006, 09:22 AM
I meant to have a "?" instead of the "." at the end of my first sentence two posts above... anyhow, interesting story.

baddboygeorge
02-02-2006, 11:43 PM
i like that deere track loader but i dont like the cost of replacement tracks the dealer told me 8 grand a set for tracks thats b.s.

all ferris
02-03-2006, 08:34 PM
i like that deere track loader but i dont like the cost of replacement tracks the dealer told me 8 grand a set for tracks thats b.s.


I only paid 4 grand for oem bridgestone tracks for my T200

all ferris
02-03-2006, 08:41 PM
All Ferris is that a new machine you are talking about? I know that a lot of problems come from lack of operator "know how" . For example our one operator (now ex-employee) expected to roll through just about anything and if he couldn't he would sometimes ram the heck out of it be it rocks, tree stumps, etc. Talk about beating the snot out of a machine! And he wondered why we had some hydraulic leaks, arm sway and such. Always ran at full throttle too.

If you re- read my earlier post you will see that the 270 I was talking about had 2200 hours on it and needed a new engine. I never even got on this particular machine till it had at least 1200 hours. The only thing we use this machine for is moving logs so this machine sees no dirt work and IMO is easy on the loader compared to other work enviroments. All it has to do is lift logs and it terrible at it.
I do not see a problem with running a machine at full throttle. The onle thing I can see happening is using more fuel.