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DynaMow
01-17-2006, 07:32 PM
50 x 16 paver driveway, brick shaped pavers. driveway is wavy due to vehicle traffic. need to pull up pavers (in good shape) level, repack, sand, and relay pavers. Looks pretty straight forward.

Looking for some ideal of what others would charge?

mbella
01-17-2006, 08:49 PM
Did you do the original install?

UNISCAPER
01-17-2006, 11:02 PM
Mike asks a very valid question because had you done the original install, you will know the underlying circumstances. There could be one issue however. If you have bad soils under all the gravel, you have to dig it all out and go deeper with base to help stabilize the driveway. Some of those redo projects cost as much as laying the whole thing over because you have breakage when you pull the old out, and, you have all that doing over of the base.

mbella
01-17-2006, 11:41 PM
Mike asks a very valid question because had you done the original install, you will know the underlying circumstances. There could be one issue however. If you have bad soils under all the gravel, you have to dig it all out and go deeper with base to help stabilize the driveway. Some of those redo projects cost as much as laying the whole thing over because you have breakage when you pull the old out, and, you have all that doing over of the base.

Bill, exactly. These jobs are anything but simple. The problem could be with the bedding layer. Screenings tend to promote "rutting." If that was the cause here, it could be a simple matter of removing the screenings, installing coarse concrete sand and pavers.

However, I would put my money on unsuitable subsoil being the culprit. In that case, it's anything but simple. Sure, you can estimate your time to remove pavers, bedding layer and the base aggregate, but you have no idea what type of subsoil you will encounter.

I would approach it in the following manner. Prepare a proposal for all of the knowns. Knowns= time to remove pavers, bedding layer, base aggregate, reinstall base aggregate, bedding layer, pavers.

Estimate the unknowns, but don't give a firm price. Unknowns=finding suitable subsoil (basing back to the bedding layer elevation if suitable subsoil isn't encountered at the typical depth) and replacement of pavers that don't survive removal.

I can't tell you how many repairs I have estimated where the homeowner is SHOCKED because my repair number is equal to or greater than the original install price. Who cares? It is what it is.

mbella
01-18-2006, 12:01 AM
I would like to add to my last post. My personal rule regarding these repairs, or any job is I won't do it unless I will warranty the work.

For example: Last year, I met with a couple that were attempting to sell their home, but needed the hardscape repaired. It was a mess. They wanted me to pull the existing pavers, add sand and replace pavers. Well, I pulled some pavers, did a few test digs and determined that the problem was with the subsoil. These people didn't care. They wanted it to look good for about a month. That's it.

I told them no way. My trucks would be in front of the house and we would be associated with the hardscape. If the new homeowners had problems in a year or two, they would ask the neighbors if they knew who did the work. Certainly, we would be mentioned and held responsible, at least to the homeowner. Maybe, I'm crazy, but I wouldn't do it.

Drafto
01-18-2006, 12:13 AM
I would like to add to my last post. My personal rule regarding these repairs, or any job is I won't do it unless I will warranty the work.

For example: Last year, I met with a couple that were attempting to sell their home, but needed the hardscape repaired. It was a mess. They wanted me to pull the existing pavers, add sand and replace pavers. Well, I pulled some pavers, did a few test digs and determined that the problem was with the subsoil. These people didn't care. They wanted it to look good for about a month. That's it.

I told them no way. My trucks would be in front of the house and we would be associated with the hardscape. If the new homeowners had problems in a year or two, they would ask the neighbors if they knew who did the work. Certainly, we would be mentioned and held responsible, at least to the homeowner. Maybe, I'm crazy, but I wouldn't do it.

Great points Mike. I can admit I am usually in over my head most of the time, but I have been on 3 estimates that wanted to repair older stuff. I investigated, and priced it as new, or more than new in one case, the customers could not believe it and told me, and I quote, "if we wanted to PAY for a new patio, we wouldn't be having the old one fixed". I walked on all 3 of the estimates. I think the only reason I keep "repair" in my marketing is b/c it is just that, marketing. If I hear "repair" on the phone, I try my best to let them know usually it is not an easy or cheap fix before anyones time get wasted.

Dan

DynaMow
01-18-2006, 09:00 AM
Did you do the original install?

no i did not do original.
you make some good points on those following posts. I am going to attack in the manner you described. i am looking for some numbers though, before the variables.

craig

XXL Hardscaper
01-18-2006, 09:26 AM
This would be no different than pricing any other Hardscape project :Labor-Additional Materials-OH-Profit. I would definitely figure in time to do sub soil testing.In my 11 years I have done my fair share of repair work to projects done by others. 9 times out of 10 the repairs were due to sub standard sub soil prep or sub standard base compaction. In my area for driveways ( due to very clay type soils) I use a 4"layer of #2 stone then a layer of mirafi500x the 12-14" of crusher run compacted in 4" lifts with a 10,000# roller then bedding sand then pavers. On driveway jobs I also price in to have my compaction tested to insure I reach that optimal compaction of 95% proctor. Most likely you will find there is no geotextile fabric separating the sub soil from the base and the sinking is due to the base migrating into the sub soil.
Just my 2 cents , hope it helps.

P.S. Hello everyone , New to the board.

Drafto
01-18-2006, 09:30 AM
This would be no different than pricing any other Hardscape project :Labor-Additional Materials-OH-Profit. I would definitely figure in time to do sub soil testing.In my 11 years I have done my fair share of repair work to projects done by others. 9 times out of 10 the repairs were due to sub standard sub soil prep or sub standard base compaction. In my area for driveways ( due to very clay type soils) I use a 4"layer of #2 stone then a layer of mirafi500x the 12-14" of crusher run compacted in 4" lifts with a 10,000# roller then bedding sand then pavers. On driveway jobs I also price in to have my compaction tested to insure I reach that optimal compaction of 95% proctor. Most likely you will find there is no geotextile fabric separating the sub soil from the base and the sinking is due to the base migrating into the sub soil.
Just my 2 cents , hope it helps.

P.S. Hello everyone , New to the board.

I am just curious as to the purpose of the 4" of #2 stone? If you are in clay soil and there is no fabric between the #2 stone and the soil, won't this just migrate down like any other stone? I guess it just seems like wasted material and labor to me. Everything else sounds right, I am just suprised of that extra step.

Dan

XXL Hardscaper
01-18-2006, 10:02 AM
This by no means is an ICPI spec, It is just the way I prefer to do it. For 8 years before I got into this buisness I worked for a Large Excavation company. This was how we constructed every parking lot and road in Maryland and Virginia that were red and yellow clay soils. The #2 stone is not that expensive and it really doesnt add that much labor time to install and compact. The #2 stone when compacted on clay (as long as the moisture levels are ok) really tightens up the top surface of the clay. It also helps when you are installing your 1st lift of crusher run because you have a tighter surface under your fabric. JMO

Drafto
01-18-2006, 10:07 AM
This by no means is an ICPI spec, It is just the way I prefer to do it. For 8 years before I got into this buisness I worked for a Large Excavation company. This was how we constructed every parking lot and road in Maryland and Virginia that were red and yellow clay soils. The #2 stone is not that expensive and it really doesnt add that much labor time to install and compact. The #2 stone when compacted on clay (as long as the moisture levels are ok) really tightens up the top surface of the clay. It also helps when you are installing your 1st lift of crusher run because you have a tighter surface under your fabric. JMO

Interesting. I can only assume that doing the roads and parking lots you did NOT use seperation fabric maybe that is why the #2 stone was used to stablize the clay. I understand your thinking, aorund here, on a driveway, the extra expense of excavatiing that extra 4", and installing the #2 would add significant cost to a job. Your method and thinking is interesting though.

Dan

mbella
01-18-2006, 10:31 AM
no i did not do original.
you make some good points on those following posts. I am going to attack in the manner you described. i am looking for some numbers though, before the variables.

craig

I can't help you with the dollar figures. I don't know your numbers, how efficient you are, etc.

DVS Hardscaper
01-18-2006, 10:32 AM
I would not repair.

And I would not turn the workk down.

Being we're professionals, I think the specs go without saying :)

What I would do is, tear out the entire driveway, including and aggregate and simply start over. Utilizing standard practices.

XXL Hardscaper
01-18-2006, 11:24 AM
I agree with DVS, maybe i was not crystal clear in my previous posts. I would definatly tear everything out so I could test and inspect the sub soil. If the client didnt want to go through this, I would simple decline the project.

neversatisfiedj
01-18-2006, 01:14 PM
Dag XXL - I am in your area and I find it hard to find a customer to pay for the regular steps let alone extra ! There are some cheap people in this state (MD).

XXL Hardscaper
01-18-2006, 02:20 PM
I only do this for driveways, for patio and walks it is the norm. I agree about the MD comment thats probably why I have only done one driveway in MD. I have 13 in VA. Northern VA is awesome to work in, except for the traffic. WV is coming also got some nice jobs there last year.

GreenMonster
01-18-2006, 02:59 PM
Welcome to LS, XXL.

It's nice to see some hardscaper's with experience.....

Now we won't have to rely so much on guys like CG who's work got him kicked out of a trailer park :D

UNISCAPER
01-18-2006, 07:30 PM
Don't you wish there was an effecgtive and economic way to pile drive all the old driveway downh 10" into the sub soil, then apply your base and begin the whole thing over? Sure would save alot of trucking.

kootoomootoo
01-18-2006, 09:12 PM
I picked up a fert customer late last year and he just had a paver driveway installed.

400ft x 12ft of the cheap stuff...the 6cm hollands.
400ft now of a huge mess. Imagine a driveway with waves.

BUT THE GUY WAS CHEAP! :)

DynaMow
01-18-2006, 09:51 PM
Maybe I should be asking this,

this is what i feel i need to do this (in basic terminology).

step 1
I need to remove all existing pavers. stage in usable area.
8 man hours

step 2
remove all existing base material
5 man hours, equipment cost, dump fee, transportation

step 3
test soil for compaction.
2 man hours (this is something i will need to learn more about if the job comes my way)

step 4
install new base
6 man hours, material cost, delivery

step 5
install pavers
15 man hours

step 5
cleanup
2 man hours

in bold is what i need to quote.
do my hours, and other costs look correct and accurate?
What do you feel about my estimate of hours to perform this work in each step?
I know my costs and needs just need to get opinions on the variables.

XXL Hardscaper
01-19-2006, 09:12 AM
I do things a little different than most. I do not bid by man hours i bid by days. That way I can make sure I am getting paid for whole days and not half and quarter days.
1 day - remove pavers and beding sand
1 day - remove unusable base material and stock pile what can be used
maybe 60-70% is usable - 2 tandem loads to be hauled out.
1 day - compact, nuke test, install #2 stone if sub soil will not reach 95%,
install fabric
1 1/2 day - install base, compact in 4" lifts with 10,000# compactor, nuke
test
1 1/2 day - reinstall pavers, compact, edge, tarp
1 day - sweep sand, clean up

notice even though i bid 1/2 days I still ended up with a whole day total.
So I am at 7 days at $849 per day labor,labor burden, and over head

$5943.00 - labor , labor burden , OH
$1664.00 - additional materials,Truck fees for material hauled out, and tests
$1522.00 - profit

$9129 - Total

Rex Mann
01-19-2006, 10:20 AM
You said the driveway has waves in it. Are the waves parallel or perpendicular to the direction of driveway traffic? If they are distinctly one way or the other, then each has its cause for failure.

If you have rutting, parallel with the traffic, then the subsoil may be weak.
Waves running perpendicular, then they used the incorrect sand for bedding. Mason sand was more than likely used in this case.

Also, how long has the driveway been in place?



Peace,

Rex

http://PaversInstalled.Com

jreiff
01-19-2006, 10:46 AM
That is a good way to price i out, by the whole day.

Leslein Lawn: Do you have any pictures of the driveway? To see what you have to work with.

kootoomootoo
01-29-2006, 10:13 PM
You said the driveway has waves in it. Are the waves parallel or perpendicular to the direction of driveway traffic? If they are distinctly one way or the other, then each has its cause for failure.

If you have rutting, parallel with the traffic, then the subsoil may be weak.
Waves running perpendicular, then they used the incorrect sand for bedding. Mason sand was more than likely used in this case.

Also, how long has the driveway been in place?



Peace,

Rex





http://PaversInstalled.Com

Parallel waves.

Rex I meant waves as in there are 2 distinct low areas (400 ft long X 2inches lower) where the owners vehicle drives up and down. Obviously the guy didnt use enough base and or compact it enough. El cheapo pavers too. BUT I ASSUME HE WAS CHEAP>

less than 6 months old. I got a call to come and reseed the areas that his seed didnt take. Kind of hard to miss.

sheshovel
01-30-2006, 01:50 PM
I learned a long time ago..never repair anybody elses work..look at it just like it was a brand new install and then charge for removing someone elses work,It is never a good option to try and "FIX" a screwed up job..you just run into more problems the minute you try and they always add up to one big mess.
The only way to approach these jobs is rip it out..save what you can and do it from scratch to finish.Only diff is it is twice,sometimes three times the amount of work a new install would be.Clients do not understand this at all they think a "fix"is always less expensive than a new job when that is never the case.

SuperZZZ
03-14-2006, 09:11 PM
Who ever laid the pavers first time obviously took a shortcut on the base part.So your not liable after I would consider starting from scratch.Hey at least that way u know its done right and no worries later.You'll appreciate it and a happy customer will later too and they'll remember who does work right in the neighborhood.Best of luck to ya!:waving: