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GreenMonster
01-18-2006, 04:01 PM
This one truly was a nutcraker. Everything that could go wrong, did go wrong. We couldn't have dreamed up a worse combination of weather events.

Anywho, it was replacemnt of a part block, part timber, part stone retaining wall across two properties. It is on a lake, so we had to wait until draw-down, which starts on Columbus day. Of course, we had an extremely wet fall, so the water was much higher than it typically is that time of year, and we didn't get started until Nov. 1

The portion of wall where we started is the beach that curves in away from the lake, so even though the water was still against portions of the wall, we went in and started on this section. Almost immediatly upon commencement of excavation, I ran into something really hard. As I unearthed it, we realized it was a huge piece of concrete. We would later find out, from the neighbor, that there was a 6' concrete wall poured in 1975. In the spring of 1978, it fell over. Previous owners built the new walls right in front or, or on top of these pieces.

In order to dig deep enough for base, and to stay as exactly as humanly possible on the existing footprint (strict state waterfront guideline), the pieces had to come out.

I'll start with a couple before pics:

MarcusLndscp
01-18-2006, 04:18 PM
Boy Mark I didn't know you built timber walls! They look much better than that concrete stuff you put up. I was expecting more from this thread to be honest. What are you still writing? Hurry up what is taking so long? Come on I know you're tired after sitting on your butt all day but hurry up and post the dang pics!
:p :p :p

GreenMonster
01-18-2006, 04:20 PM
When I went over to the other side of the beach area, we found that the concrete pieces covered the entire beach area, about 30'.

So, it became obvious that we would need some bigger equipment to get this stuff out of here. I had an excavation guy come in and give me a price. by the time we had decided to use him, a day or so later, he had broken the thumb on his machine and couldn't do it. I COULD NOT FIND ANOTHER LARGE EXCAVATOR TO SAVE MY LIFE! So I call Bobcat Thursday nite to see if they have an excavator to rent. One to break the concrete, on to pick out the pieces. Ok, just want to make sure the other excavation guy I found couldn't do it. 1st thing friday morning, other excavation guys says he can't. Call Bobcat at 8:30am Friday morning, and the rental is gone! :realmad: So on Friday, I go to Bobcat, rent a concrete breaker for my 331. Didn't fit. OBTW, Bobcat is closed all weekend. So I called my father-in-law, he brought over his bulldozer, and we cut parallel to the wall, and pulled out the concrete.

Homeowner says the pieces are probably only behind the beach. WRONG AGAIN! Pieces went all the way to the end of the wall. About 110' total.

Pic 1 shows a piece right behind the wall.
Pic 2 gives you a pretty good idea how big these were. Usually, we would get under them with the bucket, and pick them up until the rebar snapped.
Pic 3 shows you how big they really are, in relation to a 7K lb mini x

GreenMonster
01-18-2006, 04:27 PM
MARK, WAIT TILL I'M DONE OR I'LL KICK YOUR AZZ NEXT TIME I SEE YOU!!! RIGHT THERE IN THE MIDDLE OF NEGROWS!!! HOW YOU LIKE THAT SUCKA FOOL?!?!

Of course, we gotta get em outta there too. EAch piece we chained and pulled out with Kattie the Dozer (that's what the kids always called the 450 growing up), and flipped em up above the beach. Big pieces on the log truck, small pieces in the one ton dump.

MarcusLndscp
01-18-2006, 04:33 PM
Mark seriously that was rude! Next time spell it NE Grows please so we don't read this as one word!

MarcusLndscp
01-18-2006, 04:36 PM
Seriously those are some big pieces. I'm glad it was you and not me running into those. The clients cool with the extra bill? What was the additional cost if you don't mind my asking to remove those?

SodKing
01-18-2006, 04:56 PM
I think were all in agreement that were glad it was Mark and not us running into that mess....;)

I can't wait to see the brawl at NE Grows!!!

(I'M going all three days Mark I will try to give you a call)

GreenMonster
01-21-2006, 05:16 PM
Seriously those are some big pieces. I'm glad it was you and not me running into those. The clients cool with the extra bill? What was the additional cost if you don't mind my asking to remove those?

Mark, the customer wasn't thrilled, as a matter of fact, the more I dealt with this guy, the more he came across as a cheapo. The extra excavation and removal/disposal cost them a little over $4k. Took myself & father-in-law just over a day. We were able to dump them for free about 10 min up the road.

GreenMonster
01-21-2006, 05:18 PM
I think were all in agreement that were glad it was Mark and not us running into that mess....;)

I can't wait to see the brawl at NE Grows!!!

(I'M going all three days Mark I will try to give you a call)

Hey Erik,

I'm hoping to go down for two days. I just have to look at the seminars and see which days have the most I'm interested in. You staying somewhere down there? Think I'm gonna get a room somewhere.

I have more pics coming... just haven't been on in a few days.

TerraVenture
01-21-2006, 06:09 PM
I had a similiar problem with buried concrete on a job I did two years ago. It was an old farm that somebody dumped a crap load own old concrete. I spent about four days digging holes and burying it in the back yard. Luckily it wasn't as big as the pieces you found Mark. Finding buried junk is one of the interesting parts of this job. I have found many abandoned water lines, sewer lines, gas lines, and electrical lines luckily I haven't hit any live lines yet. I have heard horror stories from relatives of mine in the heavy construction industry that have hit mis marked gas, and fiber optic lines.

MarcusLndscp
01-21-2006, 08:36 PM
Terra Venture
We were doing a job a couple years ago. It involved a small boulder retaining wall and some stone slab steps that went up to a large patio. While excavating for the wall I sat and watched as our equipment operator pulled up a very large section of fiberoptic line. As I'm sure you all know the expense to repair this is unbelievable. Long story short we had the town involved, my boss, homeowners, utility companies and nobody could tell us where the line came from. The site was marked. In the end we tried to reveal more of the line to see where it went too only to find that it was a scrap piece about 15-20 feet long. It was a sigh of relief but we lost about half a days work on the job because of it.

Dirty Water
01-21-2006, 08:39 PM
fiber optic trunk lines will bankrupt your company in a day...its something like $1k a minute fine when they are down. (These are the huge lines that carry the signal between towns, not the smaller ones that just serve neighborhoods.

We had a guy work for us once who used to lay fiber. When it came time to cut the reel, the foreman would call out "Who wants to get fired", because if you cut the line too short, you just wasted a few grand in splicing.

Ideal Lwns & Landscp
01-23-2006, 06:47 PM
Mark,
I was wondering what is used as footings when dealing with water?

GreenMonster
01-24-2006, 07:47 AM
Mark,
I was wondering what is used as footings when dealing with water?

Same as off the water. compacted crushed stone base, completely wrapped with geotextile. Base is about 12" thick though.

GreenMonster
01-24-2006, 08:20 AM
Of course, using the bulldozer to pull out the concrete pieces created a lot more spoils to deal with. We ended up with two large piles. Not so lucky for us, it rained like cats and dogs before we were able to get the piles out of the way, the held back surface water flow, and created a mud pit. Things then froze up, until it rained again, bringing the frost out of the ground as well.

The rain also brought the lake up, well into our base trench. At this point, we pulled off the job for about a week and went to do a different wall.

GreenMonster
01-24-2006, 08:26 AM
We finally returned, and did eventually get a wall built. The water receeded so slowly, we only built about 30' of base at at time, by blocking off the water to the area we were working in, pumping it out, and installing the base. This really slowed down the job

GreenMonster
01-24-2006, 08:32 AM
This job had a little of everything.

On a sandbar about 200' out, there was a bald eagle feasting on something every morning. We then watched that something float in for 4 days until it took up shop right in front of us. Neighbor finally called township, who came in with a CAT 928 front end loader. They couldn't get down to reach the carcass, so I picked it out with the thumb, swung around, and dumped it in the front end loader. Sorry no pics of that, I was there by myself that day.

When I was carefully picking the carcass out of the water, town worker says "you don't have to be so gentle, it's dead ya know". ;) Yeah, with my luck, I'd clamp down on it, and get a shot of guts in my face (que vomit smiley please)

BTW, the lake had froze over, then thawed out again. The deer likely fell through.

GreenMonster
01-24-2006, 08:43 AM
The place was covered with snow by the time we finished, and I don't have any FINAL pictures. These pictures are as close to the end as I have right now.

See the plywood up against the tree near the big hemlock? This was the only access we had to the neighboring house. We had to remove 1 LARGE boulder and some smaller boulders to get access through here. passage between two elms was 75". I have a 74" bucket on the skid :realmad:

D Felix
01-24-2006, 08:56 PM
More ALLAN BLOCK???

Gimme a break. Stinkin' crap block that you use, ya know?:D Getcha something real, stuff that'll make you *feel* like you laid block that day, rather than that wussy stuff you've been using! Try some VL, why dontcha!:p

Seriously though, looks like it was a B*TCH! Don't you have a NationsRent or some other large rental yard around that could've gotten you a bigger machine? I know thumbs are a bear to find around here, but you could have chained them out with a larger machine, and saved the use of the dozer....

Did you get rid of the 700 series and get a T190 then, or is it a rental?

No, I'm not back for good, BTW. I'm just doing a quick check-in.

mbella
01-24-2006, 09:16 PM
More ALLAN BLOCK???

Gimme a break. Stinkin' crap block that you use, ya know?:D Getcha something real, stuff that'll make you *feel* like you laid block that day, rather than that wussy stuff you've been using! Try some VL, why dontcha!:p

Seriously though, looks like it was a B*TCH! Don't you have a NationsRent or some other large rental yard around that could've gotten you a bigger machine? I know thumbs are a bear to find around here, but you could have chained them out with a larger machine, and saved the use of the dozer....

Did you get rid of the 700 series and get a T190 then, or is it a rental?

No, I'm not back for good, BTW. I'm just doing a quick check-in.

Forget Mark's wall. Welcom back, Dan. Even if it is for a minute.

Ideal Lwns & Landscp
01-24-2006, 09:49 PM
Mark, Thanks for the answer!!

MarcusLndscp
01-24-2006, 10:03 PM
Hey Dan!
Glad to see you were able to peak your head in for a brief moment. I wish you'd start posting again, I'm getting tired of seeing all this crap that Greenmonster, MBella, and that darn CGLand guy have been posting! :) Just kidding! So you going to start showing us what you've been up to? Hope to hear more from you soon
Marcus

Grass Cake
01-24-2006, 10:14 PM
fiber optic trunk lines will bankrupt your company in a day...its something like $1k a minute fine when they are down. (These are the huge lines that carry the signal between towns, not the smaller ones that just serve neighborhoods.

We had a guy work for us once who used to lay fiber. When it came time to cut the reel, the foreman would call out "Who wants to get fired", because if you cut the line too short, you just wasted a few grand in splicing.

Properly hung/laid fiber will have a "loop" every 1000' feet or so......cutting a few feet short should never be a problem........Although fiber splicing was VERY expensive years ago(as much as $24 per fiber)....the last time i checked it was WAY down($7-$8 per fiber).....one other thing.....rarely do you see high count fibers anymore.(200+ counts)....most city's are ringed and hubbed with 72 and below....Of course....the Tel. Co./Cable Co. would never let you get by paying cost.

Grass Cake

sheshovel
01-24-2006, 10:20 PM
How come you diden't build a coffer Dam with the excavated pieces of concrete,so's you could work dry
and then pull them back out and haul them away when you's wuz done?
And leave the deer in for the dang eagle to chomp on?

D Felix
01-25-2006, 06:44 AM
Thanks for the "welcome back" guys!:) I don't want to hijack Mark's thread, but I don't have any pics of what I've been working on for the last seven months. I'm not out on my own (though I'd really like to be at times), and probably won't be for some time. Our finances are tight enough as it is right now, especially with a second kid coming in May....

I was just glad to see that Mark didn't finish off the top of the wall with that crappy red mulch!:p

GreenMonster
01-25-2006, 07:29 AM
I don't want to hijack Mark's thread


Too late, Dan. Don't you know this is about me, me, me!!! :D


I was just glad to see that Mark didn't finish off the top of the wall with that crappy red mulch!:p

Ah, finished this kinda late, red mulch will go down in the spring :) ..... actually, the homeowner did have red mulch :rolleyes:

It is good to see you here, Dan. I was surprised to scroll down and see the little mini-x avatar! I see you just stick your head in long enough to pull the pin and toss in a grenade, huh? :p

Yeah, yeah, more AB. I sold some Anchor pretty hard late this year to see how I like that. It's ok, but you have to go to grid much quicker, which means more excavation. I'm going to the big regional show next week and I'm gonna talk to the VL guys again. Only problem is closest dealer is like 70miles away.

I couldn't find an excavator contractor or rental unit quickly. Remember, I'm not exactly in a booming metropolis here. That, and there is so much building going on, if you have an excavator, you're working.

Sheshovel, we had enough trouble getting those pieces out of there once, I sure didn't want to continue to fool with them and move them around multiple times. Plus, damning the wall off wasn't gonna drop the water table. Hey, I didn't call about the deer, neighbor did. It was eventually gonna end up stinkin' pretty bad. Eagle was pretty good though -- tastes like chicken.

sheshovel
01-25-2006, 04:16 PM
Just jokin around Green Monster..what a pain I am sure those concrete pieces were a big pain and a suprise too.Doncha just luv it when that happens?Then cust does not want to comprehend the extra expense..probably wanted you to leave them in there.

GreenMonster
01-25-2006, 04:28 PM
Just jokin around Green Monster..what a pain I am sure those concrete pieces were a big pain and a suprise too.Doncha just luv it when that happens?Then cust does not want to comprehend the extra expense..probably wanted you to leave them in there.

LOL, yes, yes and yes. Although, the thing is, the neighbor knew all along that they were gonna be there. Thanks for letting us know :rolleyes:

PITA, big time! Especially when you're under the gun, trying to beat frost. A hold-up like this ain't good.

And yeah, customer did ask if we could leave them, and had a hard time swallowing the extra $$$$.

Customer really wanted to hold back $$$ until spring, when they could really check everything out, and make sure we did our job. I firmly told him my job was done, payment in full please. payup

D Felix
01-25-2006, 07:40 PM
Our VL supplier is at least that far away. Heck, all of our hardscape suppliers are that far away.

The company I'm working for now does a lot of Celtic walls. My boss told me today that he went and looked at one this morning that would be ~10'; he's thinking maybe VL for that one. We'll see. A wall that tall worries me to some extent- I've never built one that tall, and niether have they. I'm going to push my boss as hard as I can to try to get a design looked at by someone, rather than just going by what's in the manual... No, we don't *need* a stamp on walls here. Inspectors here are only concered about what's *INside* the houses...

Looking forward to "finished" pics, Mark.

GreenMonster
01-25-2006, 07:49 PM
Our VL supplier is at least that far away. Heck, all of our hardscape suppliers are that far away.

The company I'm working for now does a lot of Celtic walls. My boss told me today that he went and looked at one this morning that would be ~10'; he's thinking maybe VL for that one. We'll see. A wall that tall worries me to some extent- I've never built one that tall, and niether have they. I'm going to push my boss as hard as I can to try to get a design looked at by someone, rather than just going by what's in the manual... No, we don't *need* a stamp on walls here. Inspectors here are only concered about what's *INside* the houses...

Looking forward to "finished" pics, Mark.

we don't need stamps either, but I think I would get an eng. for that one. Matter of fact, I'm gonna start getting eng's involved more often this year.

If we have another melt down, I'll get some "finished" pics.

D Felix
01-27-2006, 06:55 AM
So, Mark, you never did answer my question about the T190.....

TerraVenture
01-27-2006, 07:26 AM
D Felix
Mark siad in one of his other postings that he did by a used t190.

D Felix
01-27-2006, 07:29 AM
OK, sorry.:)

Didn't recall seeing it mentioned on this thread, and I haven't (and don't intend to) read everything from the last 6-7 months since I've been gone.:D

GreenMonster
01-27-2006, 09:17 AM
OK, sorry.:)

Didn't recall seeing it mentioned on this thread, and I haven't (and don't intend to) read everything from the last 6-7 months since I've been gone.:D

yeah, sorry Dan. I actually traded up to that on this job. It's an '03 with sticks and pedals.

I demo'd this machine, a 863, and an ASV RC-60. The ASV was definately the smoothest and most ergonomically correct. A really nice machine, really. But budget wise, and considering the most important aspect for me -- ability to move around full pallets of hardscape materials, the T190 was the right choice, right now. I could definately see an ASV in my future though. Plan all along was to upgrade to a bigger wheeled machine, until I tried tracks.

MarcusLndscp
01-27-2006, 04:01 PM
Hey Mark....I went to visit a job site the other day and low and behold there was a brand new T300. It takes some time to realize what really goes on around here. It's going to sound crazy but the darn thing came with a 2 CY snow bucket!!! The thing is absolutely huge...the regular bucket and forks were inside of it when they delivered it to the job for us. I'm sure it'll hold alot more snow than that if it was mounded up. Pretty nice machine though

GreenMonster
02-28-2006, 09:17 AM
Hey Mark....I went to visit a job site the other day and low and behold there was a brand new T300. It takes some time to realize what really goes on around here. It's going to sound crazy but the darn thing came with a 2 CY snow bucket!!! The thing is absolutely huge...the regular bucket and forks were inside of it when they delivered it to the job for us. I'm sure it'll hold alot more snow than that if it was mounded up. Pretty nice machine though

Nice. Selectable joysticks? Have you found out how it pushes snow yet?

Here's a few final pics. There is a little grading and reseeding to do in the spring.

MarcusLndscp
02-28-2006, 01:19 PM
Yeah Mark, it's got all the bells and whistles on it. We have yet to push snow with it yet cause darnit we had none until the other night. Gotta love when they predict 1-4 inches and you get somewhere in the range of a foot. Been mainly on that job with the fireplaces, veneer, walls etc. No fun when it's as cold as today though

sheshovel
02-28-2006, 01:36 PM
That turned out really reaLLY NICE after all the hassle you went through.I like tyhe way you worked around that one stump or boulder or whatever that was...I am sure the customer was completely happy with the result...Good job GreenMonster

GreenMonster
02-28-2006, 02:10 PM
No fun when it's as cold as today though

Geez, no kiddin'. Hard to keep those tents warm today, huh?

She, thanks, I'm generally happy. I don't like how the wall worked into one of the boulders, and there is a small section of waviness in the wall -- because of the water issues, we could only build 12' or so at a time, and couldn't pull a straight line. So, a small section got away from me for a while.

The guy with the boulders in front of his house is happy. We're gonna resod and landscape the whole front in the spring. The other guy is a penny pinching pain in the azz. He would have had problems with the job if we did it for free.

cedarcroft
02-28-2006, 04:44 PM
nice work, especially considering the conditions you were working under!

lawnboy30
02-28-2006, 04:47 PM
the t-300 will only be good at pushing snow on perfectly flat pavement. It will not push snow like an S-300 will. The tracks really slide around a lot. You will also have to monitor the amount of snow you are pushing. The machine obviously is plenty strong but the tracks limit it when it comes to pushing snow.

D Felix
02-28-2006, 08:12 PM
Not to pick (well, OK, I am being picky), but is that the best you could do to cut around that rock?:)

I don't have any pics of any cuts that I've made, but they sure haven't been straight vertical cuts that stick out like a sore thumb. It takes a little more time to get them butted up to the rock nice and tight, but it looks a lot better in the end. Or was that rock on the PITA customers side? If it was, that's probably what I would've done too!

Other than that, considering the conditions, good looking wall, even if it is AB.:D

YardPro
02-28-2006, 08:20 PM
felix

we use a contour guage to scribe the contour on pavers/top caps, etc. in a situation like that.

MarcusLndscp
02-28-2006, 08:24 PM
When we use the t-300 for snow it will only be in use on large flat parking lots. We've got 4 or 5 other skids that move snow for us that are all wheeled machines...the tracked is kind of a bonus/extra for us

YardPro - what is this contour guage? Where do you get one? I've seen some things at home depot but they seem kinda cheap

D Felix
02-28-2006, 08:39 PM
A contour gauge is basically a bunch of pins that are held in a line with some sort of compression sleeve. You press the pins up against an irregular shaped object and they conform to the irregularities. You can then transfer the profile to your block. They are used a lot in woodworking. I haven't used one much, it's almost as easy (in some instances) to hold a pencil/marker a constant distance away from the rock and mark the block that way.

This is one of the first links that popped up w/ Google: http://www.right-tool.com/12steelpinco.html


Dan

YardPro
02-28-2006, 08:50 PM
that's pretty much it.

the hand and pencil works also, but with the coutour guage, it always comes out perfect.
we cope the caps to make sure they fit nice and tight.

MarcusLndscp
03-01-2006, 07:20 AM
Yup, same thing I've seen at HD. I always go with the method of a marker in between 3 fingers and then let one of your other fingers ride along what you're trying to match. Usually works real well and typically only requires a little bit of touch up with a hammer or grinder.

GreenMonster
03-01-2006, 07:40 AM
Not to pick (well, OK, I am being picky), but is that the best you could do to cut around that rock?:)

Other than that, considering the conditions, good looking wall, even if it is AB.:D

LMAO, Good to have you back, Dan!

Actually, that's not a cut. It's a full cap. I was so tight on caps at the end, I didn't cut a piece in there, and I had zero caps left. We'll be back on that lot in the spring... I'll fix it up for ya :D

I do like the idea of a contour gauge. Cutting up against boulders is always a PITA to me.

T-300 is a "bonus"?! Nice little bonus there Marky

jreiff
03-01-2006, 08:30 PM
Do you have to do anything on the beach/ wter front? Rip rap or beach sand??

Did you have to get a permit to do the wall on the lake?

Here is is really hard to get the county to issue a permit to alter along beaches.

cgland
03-01-2006, 09:51 PM
Do you think you will need to install scour protection? Was this installed as a water application? Looks good!

Chris

YardPro
03-02-2006, 06:51 AM
forgot to say the wall looks great. good job.

GreenMonster
03-02-2006, 07:33 AM
mfg calls for rip-rap as scour protection, but the state won't let you, they classify it as unnecessary fill :rolleyes: we have walls on this lake that have seen two years of abuse in a very busy section of the lake, with no major signs of breaking down. But, I'm sure you know CG that they should have protection. Eventually, it is likely that something will have to be done. We argued with the state beforehand on these and got nowhere. Maybe after they begin to see failure they'll allow something.

These wall do of course require a permit. As long as your are replacing, and conforming to the original size and location, its a fairly easy process.