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Lawnworks
01-23-2006, 07:34 PM
I have a customer that wants some river rock installed, but he is worried about it washing. I really do not think it is an issue and suggested staggering some larger rock to slow the flow. He is main concern is keeping the dogs out of the mud. Also what would keep the clay from coming up through the rock? Would landscape fabric do it or would I need some kind of grid?

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=48328&stc=1&d=1138059152

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=48329&stc=1&d=1138059191

http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=48330&stc=1&d=1138059191

sheshovel
01-23-2006, 07:44 PM
First you will need to dig out the end there so it will drain off to somewhere rather than just sit there.
Then I would use thick layers of several sized rocks and also big rounded river rock ,here it's called Noiya
and make it a creekbed look.You should not have problems with the clay coming through if it is dug out a bit and graded to drain and use thick 4'' layer of
1&1/2+ to 2&1/2+round first and 3&1/2+ river and larger second

Lawnworks
01-23-2006, 08:06 PM
It is draining from the back of the yard through the fence to a ditch on the side yard.

I think it does need to be graded a bit. You would suggest 4" thick?

Kohls Landscaping Co
01-23-2006, 08:27 PM
Lawnworks,

I'll somtimes install a 4" perforated drain tiled under the landscape fabric and then put down the river rock. I'd definately recommend the landscape fabric to keep the mud from coming up and help keep weeds from growing up through the rocks.

Dave

Lawnworks
01-23-2006, 08:36 PM
Lawnworks,

I'll somtimes install a 4" perforated drain tiled under the landscape fabric and then put down the river rock. I'd definately recommend the landscape fabric to keep the mud from coming up and help keep weeds from growing up through the rocks.

Dave

Wow those bigger rocks look great! How much per ton are those?

sheshovel
01-23-2006, 08:41 PM
Kholes,he needs to get the water out of there completely.if he puts the perforated drain under the fabric,whats to keep the drain from filling up with clay?

sheshovel
01-23-2006, 08:43 PM
You can use geotexile under the rock of course I would not recommend landscape fabric though,and a the rock will carry the water out,I see no need for a drain.

Lawnworks
01-23-2006, 08:55 PM
When he was considering using a drain, it was going to be a big one. It is hard to see/imagine how much water goes through there. I haven't even seen it b/c it only happens when there is a gully washer.

Kohls Landscaping Co
01-23-2006, 08:59 PM
Lawnworks,
I can't remember exactly, but it was somewhere between $60 to $75/yard.

Sheshovel,
We don't have much clay where I work, so I can now see how the perforated drain could clog. One option might be to put a 'sleeve' on the drain and when backfilling, fill the trench with gravel. Then put down somthing that will allow the water to run through and not the clay.

On the job with the pictures we hooked into existing drain tiles that carry the water away.

Are you thinking the water will not penetrate the clay at all?

Just a possible option.

Dave

Lawnworks
01-23-2006, 09:09 PM
Lawnworks,
I can't remember exactly, but it was somewhere between $60 to $75/yard.

Sheshovel,
We don't have much clay where I work, so I can now see how the perforated drain could clog. One option might be to put a 'sleeve' on the drain and when backfilling, fill the trench with gravel. Then put down somthing that will allow the water to run through and not the clay.

On the job with the pictures we hooked into existing drain tiles that carry the water away.

Are you thinking the water will not penetrate the clay at all?

Just a possible option.

Dave

The problem occurs only when it rains hard, and I am thinking that a small 4-6" pipe will not be able to route all of the water. I think it would work if the pipe was much larger. But the customer does not want to go the expense of the larger pipe.

From your experiences, has the landscape fabric worked or will grid be needed?

Dirty Water
01-23-2006, 09:34 PM
I think he needs a irrigation system too.

:laugh:

YardPro
01-23-2006, 09:54 PM
most definately use a landscape fabric... not the crap you buy at slowes or home dumpo... get nursery mat... it will keep the rock from mixing in with the soil... the clay can bubble up into the rock.. if it is wet and someone walks on it they will push some rock down into the dirt...

the fabric is a soil seperation fabric.... same principal as geotex with paver base.

Lawnworks
01-23-2006, 09:56 PM
most definately use a landscape fabric... not the crap you buy at slowes or home dumpo... get nursery mat... it will keep the rock from mixing in with the soil... the clay can bubble up into the rock.. if it is wet and someone walks on it they will push some rock down into the dirt...

the fabric is a soil seperation fabric.... same principal as geotex with paver base.

lol... no slowes or home dumpo! Alright well it sounds like some landscape fabric from John Deere will do.

LandscapePro
01-23-2006, 11:42 PM
Lawnworks,

Is there a B.W.I. location near you? They're got DeWitt in 8,12,and 15 ft. wide rolls 300 ft. long.

First thing, don't jack with it at all until it's dry....real dry. Pics indicate decent flow as is, however you should shoot it and see exactly what your fall is. How many feet are we talking?

You can use 4" pref pipe with a sock placed in a shallow trench on top of the fabric, just make sure of your grade. It may not handle the entire flow, but should help move a large part of it.

That will take some of the pressure off your rock.

Mike
La. Landscape Contractor #2576

Lawnworks
01-23-2006, 11:50 PM
No BWI near me. It is about 120 feet long. Do you really think the perferated pipe will help when the water is up even w/ the grass? I guess I am probably going to need to take it down a couple more inches to compensate for the rock.

It would be nice to have rock going all the way back from the grass to the back fence, but I think that will be out of the question cost wise. I guess just a wider bed at the beginning would look alright.

LandscapePro
01-24-2006, 12:07 AM
With the pref pipe you'll have an unrestricted 4" flow going under your rock bed as well as the water flowing over the rock.

For what it's going to cost in rock, use 2 runs of 4" pref the cost isn't going to be that much and you'll move a lot more water.

Have you got a laser to shoot it with?

Mike
La. Landscape Contractor #2576

Lawnworks
01-24-2006, 12:14 AM
With the pref pipe you'll have an unrestricted 4" flow going under your rock bed as well as the water flowing over the rock.

For what it's going to cost in rock, use 2 runs of 4" pref the cost isn't going to be that much and you'll move a lot more water.

Have you got a laser to shoot it with?

Mike
La. Landscape Contractor #2576

I do not have a laser. What info can I get from shooting it? How much is a good laser? You can never have enough of the right tools.

I will give him a seperate price with the perferated pipe. Pipe cost will be little, but it will need a little more grading.

sheshovel
01-24-2006, 01:03 AM
You can go ahead and listen to these guys and use that perf pipe..then have your client calling you in the middle of a heavy rain wanting to know why his lawn is flooding out.Because you will need a HUGE drop to get the water out of there that way and if it does not move quick enough..it will simply seep right back up out of the holes and under the line and sit there.BY what I can see,in order to get the water out quick you need a creek bed that does the same thing as a pipe except you wont have to get near as much of a drop to get it out like you would if you had to bury a line under rock.This is my opinion.

Dirty Water
01-24-2006, 01:14 AM
Shovel, Perf pipe flows really really well. Plus in that clay the bed the perfpipe sits in will become a channel and the water will flow down that as well.

just make sure its in a sock and then bedded with gravel/drainrock so it doesn't clog up.

klkanders
01-24-2006, 01:28 AM
Dirty Water, i agree. Some unknown things are just how much water has come thru in the past. Homeowner might know. Any pics of that? What is the drop from one side of property to the other? Does the water come from neighbors yard having the same situation? If he has dirt and clay it would end up covering the new rock.
Just some other things to consider.

Kohls Landscaping Co
01-24-2006, 02:00 AM
Lawnworks,
The landscape fabric should work well. I haven't had any trouble with it in past experiences.

Another issue to consider is where the water will go once it is carried away...

Dave

klkanders
01-24-2006, 02:20 AM
Hmmmm maybe thats something his neighbor upstream should be thinking too..........

Kohls Landscaping Co
01-24-2006, 02:28 AM
Here's a rough idea of what a cross section might look like...

Dave

LandscapePro
01-24-2006, 10:13 AM
I do not have a laser. What info can I get from shooting it?

lw,

If you must ask that question, you've got no business doing this kind of project.

If subbing it out is an option, do so and watch.

If that's not an option, explain to your guy you don't do drainage work. Then continue doing what ever it is you do for him.

I'm not bustin' your chops here, just trying to keep you from getting your butt in the proverbial crack. Start messing with drainage without knowing what you're doing and you'll get in a bind......fast.

Mike
La. Landscape Contractor #2576

Dirty Water
01-24-2006, 11:41 AM
You could use a transit and someone holding a tape measure to determine the fall also...its a good bit cheaper than a laser.

Lawnworks
01-24-2006, 01:38 PM
lw,

If you must ask that question, you've got no business doing this kind of project.

If subbing it out is an option, do so and watch.

If that's not an option, explain to your guy you don't do drainage work. Then continue doing what ever it is you do for him.

I'm not bustin' your chops here, just trying to keep you from getting your butt in the proverbial crack. Start messing with drainage without knowing what you're doing and you'll get in a bind......fast.

Mike
La. Landscape Contractor #2576

LOL right!!! I don't think it will take an engineer to figure this one out! The issue is not even to determine what drainage is necessary. The issue is not "will the water drain here." The issue is what will be a good ground cover for this clay while the water drains over it. Will it wash away? I don't think a laser will help determine how much water flows through or how fast. This project is simple, and I believe you guys have helped me determine which way to go.

Oh and Mike, thanks for answering my questions about lasers... that was very insightful:rolleyes: I am not trying to be a smartalec... ok yes I am, but I really am here to learn, but not for someone to tell me I cannot handle a small 10 ton rock job.

Dirty Water
01-24-2006, 08:51 PM
By the lawnworks, you can measure the amount of fall from your trench and the properties slope quickly and easily with a laser.

Sometimes your eye can be decieving, a laser lets you be exact.

Lawnworks
01-24-2006, 09:11 PM
Alright, what laser do I need? I am not opposed to buying new toys!

Dirty Water
01-24-2006, 09:15 PM
A good laser will run you between $800 $1k or so.

I don't know enough about them to reccomend one brand from another, perhaps someone who has played with a lot of brands?

klkanders
01-24-2006, 09:50 PM
Just an idea. How about renting one to begin with?

LandscapePro
01-24-2006, 10:30 PM
LOL right!!! I don't think it will take an engineer to figure this one out! The issue is not even to determine what drainage is necessary. The issue is not "will the water drain here." The issue is what will be a good ground cover for this clay while the water drains over it. Will it wash away? I don't think a laser will help determine how much water flows through or how fast. This project is simple, and I believe you guys have helped me determine which way to go.

Oh and Mike, thanks for answering my questions about lasers... that was very insightful:rolleyes: I am not trying to be a smartalec... ok yes I am, but I really am here to learn, but not for someone to tell me I cannot handle a small 10 ton rock job.

Lw,

I saw no use in discussing the use of a laser (or transit) due to your not knowing what information the tools would provide you with or what to do with that information. FYI.. I use a CST/Berger LMH-600. It will set you back about $1500.00 or so.

Yes, the issue here is most definitely what the drainage requirements are for this project.

Yes, the issue is very much "will the water drain here" after you dump 10 tons of rock in the ditch.

You are correct in that a laser (or transit) will not provide gallons per minute or the velocity of the water in question.

Yes, it appears this is a fairly simple project. Fairly simple for someone that knows what they're doing. You do not.

To borrow a phrase from Richie Cuningham...Go right ahead there bucko. Dump 10 tons of rock in that ditch.

However, understand that when you flood the backyard of the customer, you are liable. Also understand when the water backs up in the neighboring yard ( from whence it came ), You are liable for that as well.

I tried to give you some sound advice. That way you could learn what's involved with this type of project by seeing it done correctly. You decided to be "cute".

I'm glad you're willing to learn. It seems you are about to get an education.


Mike
La. Landscape Contractor #2576

Dirty Water
01-24-2006, 10:38 PM
However, understand that when you flood the backyard of the customer

From the looks of that yard, making it into a rice paddy might help that grass.

Lawnworks
01-25-2006, 12:17 AM
Lw,

I saw no use in discussing the use of a laser (or transit) due to your not knowing what information the tools would provide you with or what to do with that information. FYI.. I use a CST/Berger LMH-600. It will set you back about $1500.00 or so.

Yes, the issue here is most definitely what the drainage requirements are for this project.

Yes, the issue is very much "will the water drain here" after you dump 10 tons of rock in the ditch.

You are correct in that a laser (or transit) will not provide gallons per minute or the velocity of the water in question.

Yes, it appears this is a fairly simple project. Fairly simple for someone that knows what they're doing. You do not.

To borrow a phrase from Richie Cuningham...Go right ahead there bucko. Dump 10 tons of rock in that ditch.

However, understand that when you flood the backyard of the customer, you are liable. Also understand when the water backs up in the neighboring yard ( from whence it came ), You are liable for that as well.

I tried to give you some sound advice. That way you could learn what's involved with this type of project by seeing it done correctly. You decided to be "cute".

I'm glad you're willing to learn. It seems you are about to get an education.


Mike
La. Landscape Contractor #2576

A little arrogant are we?? It really makes me sick. Out of curiosity what do you gross per year?

Yes you are right... I am about to get an education. What do I have to lose? a thousand dollars? You must think I am some high school drop out just going to dump some rock in that thing and send the bill? It flows fine now, so if retains a similar form... I will be alright. I am sure it will flow even better once I grade it. Remember flow is not the problem... just the clay the dogs are playing in. Loosen up a little bit, if you are so knowledgeable you should try posting like Uniscaper. He is probably by far one of the most knowledgeable persons w/ hardscapes on this forum, but he does not come off arrogant at all.

Your sound advice means that I learn nothing and I make nothing from this project. It also mean that I put another company on the property. Sounds like a great plan. I don't like people telling me I can't do something.:waving:

Greg313
01-25-2006, 10:17 AM
What ever you end up doing post the pics, I'm curious in seeing your solution! Good Luck!!!

LandscapePro
01-25-2006, 10:36 AM
A little arrogant are we?? It really makes me sick. Out of curiosity what do you gross per year?

Yes you are right... I am about to get an education. What do I have to lose? a thousand dollars? You must think I am some high school drop out just going to dump some rock in that thing and send the bill? It flows fine now, so if retains a similar form... I will be alright. I am sure it will flow even better once I grade it. Remember flow is not the problem... just the clay the dogs are playing in. Loosen up a little bit, if you are so knowledgeable you should try posting like Uniscaper. He is probably by far one of the most knowledgeable persons w/ hardscapes on this forum, but he does not come off arrogant at all.

Your sound advice means that I learn nothing and I make nothing from this project. It also mean that I put another company on the property. Sounds like a great plan. I don't like people telling me I can't do something.:waving:


You post this and want to call me arrogant?

You're "sure it will flow even better once you grade it", even after asking "What info can I get from shooting it?".

I suggest you "sub out" the project. You state "Your sound advice means that I learn nothing and I make nothing from this project."

Do you know what it means to "sub out" a project?

Yes Lw, you're about to get an education. :drinkup:

Mike
La. Landscape Contractor #2576

Lawnworks
01-25-2006, 11:13 AM
You post this and want to call me arrogant?

You're "sure it will flow even better once you grade it", even after asking "What info can I get from shooting it?".

I suggest you "sub out" the project. You state "Your sound advice means that I learn nothing and I make nothing from this project."

Do you know what it means to "sub out" a project?

Yes Lw, you're about to get an education. :drinkup:

Mike
La. Landscape Contractor #2576

Yes you are arrogant. I am asking for help, not help on whether I should sub it out. How hard can it be to even shoot a laser? Do I need to go get a degree first? I was asking your expert opinion and you have nothing for me? and that is arrogant? Again thanks for your insight! Yes I know what sub it out means, it means I don't touch it. I will post pics just for you big dawg.:waving: Feel free to reply w/ any of your laser expertise.

excalibur
01-25-2006, 01:43 PM
LW,

I was thinking some of the same things as LP as I read this thread, although perhaps in a little different tone. If you do not know what a laser will tell you, drainage work will be very difficult (Unless you are familiar with a transit). Also, it does not appear that the site does drain all that well as is - the standing water gives that away. The area that seems to be depressed as a drainage swale appears as if it will have to be lowered or the rock will either be very thinly placed or left sticking up above the ground. If you are excavating to lower it, how can you be sure it will drain or that you have matched the original drainage? The obvious answer s by shooting it. Aside from that, I guess you could drag a 4' level through the mud and check every inch.

Lastly, what I think LP was getting at with subbing was not to get you off the job. The whole point was to get you on the job with someone who knows what is going on. Work with them (Especially their gradesetter) - learn from them. Ask them questions as they pertain to the exact work at hand and how the process works in general. Then if you are smart, you can markup their work a little and actually get a little scratch for your learning experience.

Or go in, hog out the dirt without shooting it, spread your rock and pray to god it drains. Have your lawyer and insurance or bonding company on speedial in case it doesn't. And it could cost you the thousand that you threw out x100's if you cause a problem.

Not trying to be a smartass here, but this is something that seems really simple, but could turn ugly with just a couple of missteps.

Just my crappy advice - worth every cent you paid for it.

klkanders
01-25-2006, 05:53 PM
Excalibur
I had to say that was well written! You touched on all the issues and presented it well. I'd hire ya!

Lawnworks
01-25-2006, 08:46 PM
LW,

I was thinking some of the same things as LP as I read this thread, although perhaps in a little different tone. If you do not know what a laser will tell you, drainage work will be very difficult (Unless you are familiar with a transit). Also, it does not appear that the site does drain all that well as is - the standing water gives that away. The area that seems to be depressed as a drainage swale appears as if it will have to be lowered or the rock will either be very thinly placed or left sticking up above the ground. If you are excavating to lower it, how can you be sure it will drain or that you have matched the original drainage? The obvious answer s by shooting it. Aside from that, I guess you could drag a 4' level through the mud and check every inch.

Lastly, what I think LP was getting at with subbing was not to get you off the job. The whole point was to get you on the job with someone who knows what is going on. Work with them (Especially their gradesetter) - learn from them. Ask them questions as they pertain to the exact work at hand and how the process works in general. Then if you are smart, you can markup their work a little and actually get a little scratch for your learning experience.

Or go in, hog out the dirt without shooting it, spread your rock and pray to god it drains. Have your lawyer and insurance or bonding company on speedial in case it doesn't. And it could cost you the thousand that you threw out x100's if you cause a problem.

Not trying to be a smartass here, but this is something that seems really simple, but could turn ugly with just a couple of missteps.

Just my crappy advice - worth every cent you paid for it.

I appreciate your advice and your tone! I really mean that... it really makes a world of difference and demands alot more respect than an arrogance.

I would really like to learn how to use the laser on this job. Renting one would be great... any where I can read up on it?

I could keep the same grade and take it down several inches just to be careful... I am sure it would be advantageous to that anyway. Or I could get a drainage/water proofing company's thoughts on it... I still would like to do the job though.

D Felix
01-25-2006, 09:36 PM
I too was thinking along the lines of what excalibur said.

Drainage work isn't *hard* but its not hard to screw it up. After putting uncounted thousands of feet of pipe in the ground in the last 10 years, I've got a good feel for what needs to be done.

That being said, there's only so much we can tell from pictures. What we may not see is a storm drain inlet 30 feet on the other side of the fence. Or a huge parking lot behind the camera that is producing the runoff. Neither of those may be there, but it's hard for us to say for sure. You'll find (you've probably been on here long enough to figure it out) that the members here who are more conservative in their advice and are more detailed are the ones you probably need to pay attention to. Those that say "just put some rock in there and collect $$$" are the ones that probably won't be doing the work very long.... Those are the ones that I tended to jump on if I had the opportunity and time, back when I was posting every day.

Personally, without seeing the entire site, if you haven't done much drainage work (or none at all), I'd say either pass on it or find someone to do it as a sub and teach you what to do. I get the feeling that you haven't done much drainage work.

Again, drainage work isn't hard, but it's not hard to screw up. Water only flows one way, and one small ooops will make it either stop or go the wrong way....

excalibur
01-26-2006, 12:56 AM
LW,

I agree with what D Fleix said - grading is not rocket science. Getitng the essence right is not hard. The problem is the detials are what will bite you and we all know the devil is in the detials - in gfine grading as much or moreso than the rest of life. I am not trying to encourage or discourage you on this project, and I hope oyu the best - I just don't want you to get upsdie down over something that maybe could have been, or be prevented with a little advice. Best of luck to you either way, and if you do take the job, please let us know how it went and post some pics.

Casey

sheshovel
01-26-2006, 01:42 AM
here who are more conservative in their advice and are more detailed are the ones you probably need to pay attention to. Those that say "just put some rock in there and collect $$$" are the ones that probably won't be doing the work very long....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Did not tell him that at all...been doing this 12 years my freind so I hope you are not refering to me.The customer is obviously worried about cost of this project..clay does not drain,you can dig a trench in it ,put down your geotextile and put drain rock in it and it will drain just like drainage line will ,with less possibility of clogging up the sock and the drain line with tree debri and more surface clay that can quickly clog the line in this situation as I see it.Though drainage lines are the solution to alot of these problems I have had to dig up enough of them that no longer do what they were installed to do to tell you that they are not always necessary and can cause problems of their own.

LandscapePro
01-26-2006, 01:52 AM
Lw,

Had you not been a *mart-a$$, right out of the gate, you would have gotten quite a different response from me.

I entered this thread on post #14 with suggestions as to where you could locate fabric the width you needed and some options that would help.

You made it crystal clear ( in your post #17) you had NEVER done this type of work before by asking the question "What info can I get from shooting it?

When I stated the obvious, suggested you "sub" it and learn how, and explained you could get in trouble on this, you got pi$$y.

You've posted snotty remarks since, all the while still not knowing what you're talking about. You were the one that said: "Your sound advice means that I learn nothing and I make nothing from this project."
That statement shows you Don't know what "subbing" means until it's explained to you by Excabilur.

Then it's not until Excalibur wraps everything up in a pretty package, telling you what I've already said, that you give it some thought...."Or I could get a drainage/water proofing company's thoughts on it..."

Kickin'...screaming...and draggin' your heels the whole way, you still wind up listening.

Your "pride" got hurt when I simply told you the truth. Excabilur tells you what I did and you get all "warm and fuzzy".

Look up the definition of arrogant and look up passive / aggressive behavior syndrome.

Then read this entire thread from the start.......

"You have much to learn grasshopper".........


Mike
La. Landscape Contractor #2576

sheshovel
01-26-2006, 01:58 AM
With the above post I agree totaly LandscapePro.
Mike
you were unfairly abused after giving good advice here.I agree..
for sure and it was not right for him to do that at all.

Lawnworks
01-26-2006, 08:55 AM
Lw,

Had you not been a *mart-a$$, right out of the gate, you would have gotten quite a different response from me.

I entered this thread on post #14 with suggestions as to where you could locate fabric the width you needed and some options that would help.

You made it crystal clear ( in your post #17) you had NEVER done this type of work before by asking the question "What info can I get from shooting it?

When I stated the obvious, suggested you "sub" it and learn how, and explained you could get in trouble on this, you got pi$$y.

You've posted snotty remarks since, all the while still not knowing what you're talking about. You were the one that said: "Your sound advice means that I learn nothing and I make nothing from this project."
That statement shows you Don't know what "subbing" means until it's explained to you by Excabilur.

Then it's not until Excalibur wraps everything up in a pretty package, telling you what I've already said, that you give it some thought...."Or I could get a drainage/water proofing company's thoughts on it..."

Kickin'...screaming...and draggin' your heels the whole way, you still wind up listening.

Your "pride" got hurt when I simply told you the truth. Excabilur tells you what I did and you get all "warm and fuzzy".

Look up the definition of arrogant and look up passive / aggressive behavior syndrome.

Then read this entire thread from the start.......

"You have much to learn grasshopper".........


Mike
La. Landscape Contractor #2576

I went back and reread. I replied lightheartedly and you took it the wrong way. You came off as a jerk.... it is not the first time for you. I have read your replies on other threads. I agree I have much to learn, but your arrogant attitude suggests that you already know everything. If you are so knowledgeable, why are you reluctant to answer any laser questions? Are you really trying to be helpful or are you just trying to put me down?

D Felix
01-27-2006, 08:16 AM
I wasn't referring to anyone in particular on this thread the the "just put rock in it and collect $$$" comment. I've seen plenty of similiar comments on numerous threads before from lots of people, which is why I said what I did.

LW- one other point that I meant to make, but forgot to, was if you are wondering if you need to put "grid" under the rock, you probably should just stick to mowing. Don't jump on me like you did LP- I'm on the same page as him, as well as excalibur. Geogrid has absolutely no use under rock, it's sole purpose is to reinforce SRW walls.

The big question is: have you ever used a transit, let alone a laser level? Even to run the "dumb" end (the stick)? Do you know what the difference between the two is?

YardPro
01-27-2006, 08:24 AM
lw..
you just suggested that landscapepro dodged your question about using a laser becuase he lacks knowledge.....

WAKE UP....QUIT SMOKING WEED

with the " what info can i get from a laser" question it is obvious that you have less than zero knowledge about using a transit...
i would not have gone into explaining how it works to you either...

you very unfairly got pissy with him... his suggestion to sub it out and watch was correct... you could make money and learn something... a win win situation..

i do have one piece of advise....
just remember water runs downhill.....

Lawnworks
01-27-2006, 09:13 AM
LW- one other point that I meant to make, but forgot to, was if you are wondering if you need to put "grid" under the rock, you probably should just stick to mowing. Don't jump on me like you did LP- I'm on the same page as him, as well as excalibur. Geogrid has absolutely no use under rock, it's sole purpose is to reinforce SRW walls.

I have never done a retaining wall before, but I have researched them and know that grid is used to hold the dirt back... I was thinking along the same line, but in this case only for aesthetics. It sounds like landscape fabric will do the trick.


The big question is: have you ever used a transit, let alone a laser level? Even to run the "dumb" end (the stick)? Do you know what the difference between the two is?

I have never used one, but I will figure it out. Sounds like as long the fall is decreasing steadily the right way, I will be alright. This is not rocket science, and I will figure it out. Thanks for your help, but mowing is boring.:waving:

Lawnworks
01-27-2006, 09:14 AM
lw..
you just suggested that landscapepro dodged your question about using a laser becuase he lacks knowledge.....

WAKE UP....QUIT SMOKING WEED

with the " what info can i get from a laser" question it is obvious that you have less than zero knowledge about using a transit...
i would not have gone into explaining how it works to you either...

you very unfairly got pissy with him... his suggestion to sub it out and watch was correct... you could make money and learn something... a win win situation..

i do have one piece of advise....
just remember water runs downhill.....

No weed here... just trying to learn. Thanks for your help.:waving:

hortiscape
01-27-2006, 08:59 PM
I am new to this site, but not new to landscape. I will try to give advise without offending anybody. were these pictures taken after a heavy rain episode, or is this ground always this wet?

sheshovel
01-27-2006, 10:04 PM
Welcome hortiscape..to the site..I think he said his pic was after a "gully washer"

Lawnworks
01-27-2006, 10:16 PM
This was after a moderate rain. The area drains well now, but the dogs get into the clay and that is the problem. It needs to maintain the same fall, but it would probably help to be a few inches deeper.

hortiscape
01-30-2006, 11:07 AM
From the pic it seems a good dredging to proper rise/fall for your site would and could be done by eye or "feel" . I know all you transit/laser level guys are cringing, and transits are a great tool, but lets be realistic, all drainage does not require exact science. This site looks pretty strait foreward with no decieving features such as debris, boulders or steep banks.(that i can see.) If the runoff from heavy rains do not pull contaminates and debris from the woodland area above the drainage area then it seems river rock would be a good cap material for your drainage trench.
I do not see the need for 4" perf. or landscape fabrics. This material is predominately clay, yes?, if so your dealing with sheet drainage, that is all your surface water should be flowing over your A horizon and filtration into a perf. pipe will not be needed. As for the fabric, over time it will fill with fines from obove as well as below the grade, and produce a medium for plant growth. It my be you should try to use some desirable wetland grasses now before the undesirables move into the area.
Ornamental grasses growing in and around river rock can be appealing to some people. Just make sure you keep a defined edge on you planting area.

Lawnworks
01-30-2006, 01:10 PM
Thanks for the reply... I think am going to go ahead and use a laser just to be safe. I can rent one for $50 and they seem pretty straight forward.

sheshovel
01-30-2006, 01:20 PM
Wow ,somebody actually agrees with me..again welcome to the site hortiscape...it is nice to have my views given validity by someone agreeing with them once in awhile! LOL..good luck with the project Lawnworks

jreiff
01-30-2006, 10:58 PM
Post some during and after pics when you are through with the job to see how it turns out... Good luck...

Lawnworks
02-18-2006, 11:36 PM
Job is almost complete. I will post some pics. That laser level sure was hard to figure out.:rolleyes: The $7 an hour home depot employee and I figured out how to use the self leveling laser in about 2 minutes. You guys made a great suggestion on using it, but come on it isn't rocket science!!

Lawnworks
02-18-2006, 11:45 PM
Before.
http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=48329&d=1138059125

Here is the equipment.

Lawnworks
02-18-2006, 11:46 PM
Here is the final grade.

YardPro
02-19-2006, 09:07 AM
you have a dingo?

Lawnworks
02-19-2006, 10:30 AM
you have a dingo?

Sure do. You posted on my thread! http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=132232

It seems like there is a use for a dingo on just about every landscape project.

kris
02-19-2006, 11:43 AM
Hey Dan...nice to see you ...

lets be real here ..I quit reading after 5 pages.

This is not a difficult job by the looks of the pics... hell he could run a string line down the side with a $2 line level to see how the grade is ... do the minor raking.

OF COURSE you put fabric down ...put smaller rock on the bottom for coverage and bigger rock on top.

No the rain isnt going to wash away your rock.
Geez guys... KISS

Lawnworks
02-19-2006, 02:53 PM
Hey Dan...nice to see you ...

lets be real here ..I quit reading after 5 pages.

This is not a difficult job by the looks of the pics... hell he could run a string line down the side with a $2 line level to see how the grade is ... do the minor raking.

OF COURSE you put fabric down ...put smaller rock on the bottom for coverage and bigger rock on top.

No the rain isnt going to wash away your rock.
Geez guys... KISS

Thanks Kris. We actually used all oversized river rock and no smaller stone per customers request. The customer says it is only a problem when we have a "25 year storm", so the problem is not the every day rain. He says the backyard floods so this should really help out. The laser really helped as far as getting it perfect and making me more confident it would work especially for the minor rental cost. I can see how these things are a must on other drainage issues. The other problem was the dogs were getting in the wet clay and rolling around and then trying to go inside the house. We are going to put some spreading ground cover plants on the graded slope also, so this should solve his problems. I think it will look great. Hardscapes really really add to a property IMO. What all you guys do really is amazing.

kris
02-19-2006, 03:21 PM
Glad it worked out for ya ... I usually just tell the customer that we will be putting smaller rock down on the bottom...sometimes when you use all larger rock you can see parts of the fabric.

Lawnworks
02-19-2006, 05:05 PM
Yeah you are right, next time I will try to sell that point. It would definately make the bigger rock go further, and probably look better. In this case, I don't think I could have sold it that way though.

LANDSCAPER30
02-19-2006, 08:19 PM
Put your good eye on it. It doesn't look like that difficult of a job.

Lawnworks
02-27-2006, 09:26 PM
Final pics.
http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=51204&stc=1&d=1141089957
http://www.lawnsite.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=51205&stc=1&d=1141090028