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View Full Version : Sod Prep, which is more efficient


cleancutccl
02-02-2006, 11:03 AM
Of course there are different applications for every job but overall which do you feel is more efficient.
1.Sod cutter then verticut or power rake ground, then lay sod.
2.Chemically kill grass then verticut and lay sod.
3.Harley rake the area and lay sod.
4.Not sure of any other options, but if you have another idea.

baddboygeorge
02-02-2006, 10:27 PM
kill lawn an lay sod period done finished go home !!!!

cwlawley
02-03-2006, 12:41 AM
kill lawn an lay sod period done finished go home !!!!

Do you not power rake?

sheshovel
02-03-2006, 12:54 AM
Don't tell me you guys lay good sod right over old sod..PLEEEZE don't tell me that is how you prep an area for sod installation..Oh gosh what the heck is up with that?
WRONG !!! Preping a lawn does not necessarly need to be effeicient..it needs to be RIGHT!
Remove all the old sod and weeds-amend native soil with compost within the 1st 4"at least,
fill any low spots and grade rake to drain and remove any debri,
roll and fill and rake
again.
moisten to settle soil.
Add any starter fert and rake it lightly into top of soil.
Lay your sod.
I do more steps than this depending on if there is irrigation sprinklers or not.
.THE ABOVE LIST is the basic steps ONLY

Branchland
02-03-2006, 04:44 AM
If the customer is spending money on sod, do it right. She-shovel said it right. Lime if needed with the fert. Remove all rocks. Soil prep is the most important.

TURFLORD
02-03-2006, 07:19 AM
Chemically kill off everything, nuke it with a thatcher if necessary, add a thin layer of soil and fill in low spots, lime before sod, then sod. No additional fert. for 2 weeks. Theres enough N in the sod from the grower. When you go back to fert., no more than 10-10-10. Repitching the lawn is extra. The biggest mistake I see people make is trying to remove the old sod along with 1-2" of the old soil. By the time your done with the TKO and thatching, you'll be down to almost bare soil.

YardPro
02-03-2006, 07:39 AM
lol

what a knee jerk reaction....

first depending on your soil you absolutely CAN lay right over the top of the old sod...

if your ph and micro levels are ok and they fdo not need to be worked into the soil, and you are not on compacted clay that needs to be broken up.. then you are fine....

remove the grass and weeds and till in compost....... what is comost.. decomposed plant material..

the old sod will decompose under the new sod and leave a wonderful layer of rich organic material..... the new sod roots will be very happy growing down into the decomposing old sod......

JB1
02-03-2006, 07:46 AM
in a perfect world, you would do all the steps you mentioned, but its not and you do what was mentioned above.

sheshovel
02-03-2006, 01:02 PM
Right compost is decomposed plant material..not decomposing plant material.
IF your soil ph is right(when is that ever true when your replacing a bad or old lawn?)
If your soil is not clay-If you do not need to fix the soil or facilitate drainage IF_IF_IF_IF
It may not be easier--but my word is a perfect world I dont see why it cant be laying new sod and I do not lay good new sod over old dead chemicly laden sod.So it is really up to you HOW you want to do your work.Easy and quicker-or slower with more steps involved but better and longer lasting.Roots may grow into the old sod yes if the chemical you apply does not kill them as they do..and them once that "organic matter"as you call it,is used up then what do the roots do?Where will the soil be for them?
They will be weaker in the long run and not have a good "foot"in.
I NEVER SAID you could not do it..I said you should not do it Yardpro..read and pay attention please.

baddboygeorge
02-03-2006, 09:31 PM
why not ya killed it before . its dead , finished , done ,,, lay new sod over top ,,, collect check ,, an go home,, enough said thanks george

muddstopper
02-03-2006, 10:37 PM
The organic material from the old grass is going to contribute very little organic matter since it is mostly water anyways. Laying sod over exsisting grass, even if it is killed, isnt the best advice simply because you need to ensure that there are no air pockets between the new sod and the soil. The crowns of fescue grasses are around 2 inches high, even scalping the lawn doesnt get rid of the tough stemmy part of the grass. these stems and stubble will prevent the sod from acheiving good contact with the soil. Poor contact=air pockets under the sod. At the very least, scalp the lawn as close to the ground as possible, remove all clippings, verticut if possible to break up the stratification that will be present between the old soil and the sod. If you want perfect site conditions, then do as sheshovel said.

Precision
02-04-2006, 12:12 AM
why not ya killed it before . its dead , finished , done ,,, lay new sod over top ,,, collect check ,, an go home,, enough said thanks george
cause that make you a piker. Sure the grass will grow great for a week or two, then decline as the roots hit a brick wall, I mean barrier of the old stuff.
Then starts to get water starved, nutrient starved then has that oh so nice wilt and brown out.

GOOD PLAN. I bet you cut with dull blades too.

We should be trying to raise the bar, not limbo under it.

Precision
02-04-2006, 12:14 AM
verticut, power rake, 2-4 inch rototill, something anything to break up the soil to allow for good contact / easy root penetration.

Remember, sod is a plant with almost no roots.
Remember root are what bring the plant liquids (water)
The thing that the plant must have to not die in 3 or so days.

sheshovel
02-04-2006, 12:37 AM
3 for poper prep methods a five against..this is about the same % of good landscape installers and so-so ones.If you want your business to grow and thrive..your rep depends on every piece of work you do to be the best it can possibly be...and not cutting corners to save work or money.You get used to doing things from the soil up and doing them right from the beggining..or you can get used to going back and fixing your mistakes on your dime.Which choice do you want to make for your business?

TURFLORD
02-04-2006, 08:17 AM
3 for poper prep methods a five against..this is about the same % of good landscape installers and so-so ones.If you want your business to grow and thrive..your rep depends on every piece of work you do to be the best it can possibly be...and not cutting corners to save work or money.You get used to doing things from the soil up and doing them right from the beggining..or you can get used to going back and fixing your mistakes on your dime.Which choice do you want to make for your business?
AS you may have noticed there are many opposing opinions on this site which is what makes it so interesting. Everybody does things their own way and I'm all for that and respect it. Not to contradict you, but to disturb the soil in such a way, don't you worry about root systems, irrigation systems, and existing grading around beds that might have some form of edging installed? Glyphosate (Round-up) is biodegradable in 7 days. If you don't kill off what's there, it's going to come right though the new sod. Especially Zoiscia. Zoiscia being rhizomal, you'll never rip it all out mechanically.:waving:

baddboygeorge
02-04-2006, 08:51 AM
listen the proper way to lay sod is after ya lay it, roll it ,, so you have it all nice an tight against the soil an all your seams are tight. so if the lawn is killed out an its dead,, once ya roll it its gonna be sod to soil contact. so lets say ya tilled it an all the other working up methods ,, who cares cause once ya roll it your back to square one anyways . i grew up on a sod farm an laid alot of sod balls an i have done this method time an time again with awesome results. hey in Kentucky we have mostly good quality soil this isnt florida pal with sand eveywhere. we grow quality fescues here an bluegrass as well. an if ya wanna talk about raising the bar i do that well i have been in business over 12 years on my own , i own all my equipment, make a nice 6 figure income an to top it all off, i have never had a yellow page ad so this speaks for my work ,, its called referals.have a great day george

Precision
02-04-2006, 09:39 AM
listen the proper way to lay sod is after ya lay it, roll it ,, so you have it all nice an tight against the soil an all your seams are tight. so if the lawn is killed out an its dead,, once ya roll it its gonna be sod to soil contact. so lets say ya tilled it an all the other working up methods ,, who cares cause once ya roll it your back to square one anyways . i grew up on a sod farm an laid alot of sod balls an i have done this method time an time again with awesome results. hey in Kentucky we have mostly good quality soil this isnt florida pal with sand eveywhere. we grow quality fescues here an bluegrass as well. an if ya wanna talk about raising the bar i do that well i have been in business over 12 years on my own , i own all my equipment, make a nice 6 figure income an to top it all off, i have never had a yellow page ad so this speaks for my work ,, its called referals.have a great day george

somebody got their panties in a wad?

You do it your way and if it works, so much the better for you.

My personal honor will not allow me to work that way. A job gets done right or they can hire someone else.

raising the bar has nothing to do with your personal salary. It has to do with quality of product. Wal-mart makes a ton of money every year, and I doubt very many people would say they are raising the bar in any area.

PurpHaze
02-04-2006, 10:11 AM
From a Kansas sod farm:

STEP 2 — Soil Preparation

For best result, rototill or spade the area to a depth of 10 to 15 cm. (4 to 6 in.). Eliminate drainage problems by having soil slope away from foundations, etc.

Soil test your lawn area with the assistance of qualified service in your area. Then rake in fertilizer, lime, peat, compost, etc. as need to a depth of 7 to 10 cm. (3 to 4 in.). Rake and smooth the soil removing rocks, roots, and large clods. Roll the area lightly with a lawn roller 1/3 full of water. This will firm the soil surface and reveal low areas that need more soil. Keep the grade 2 to 3 cm. (1 in.) below sidewalks or driveway.

Water the prepared area to settle soil and provide a moist base for turf. Moistening to a depth of 15 cm. (6 in.) is recommended for most soils. However, consult with your local TPI member regarding your specific soil needs.

baddboygeorge
02-04-2006, 10:12 AM
facts are the facts buddy good luck an keep raisin the bar

muddstopper
02-04-2006, 12:03 PM
Everybody has their methods, if it works for you then stick to it.Nobody here has the right to say your right or wrong. Proof is in the results.

Now that I have been policitly correct, Simply killing off the old turf without breaking up the soil leaves you with zero options for incorporting the proper admendments into the soil. Sure you can broadcast the fertilizer, lime etc, on top of the soil but then you create a very caustic area right next to the root zone. You can lay the sod and than broadcast the admendments, but then the nitrogen will gas off and endup in the atmosphere and the lime will stay on top for about 9 months before finally translocating down toward the root zone. The P&K will leach off with the rain water and you have wasted about 80% of your soil admendments.

Or you can apply all admendments, roto till into the soil, the lime will reacte faster neutralizing the ph, the nitrogen will be trapped in the soil and the PK wont leach off into somebodies pond. The soil will provide a buffer from all the harmful salts that the fertilizer added to the soil, so plant, or in the case of sod, root burn is reduced or eliminated. the roto tilling of the soil breaks up the agregate particals of the soil which allows for better root penetration as well as better water and oxygen carrying capacity of the soil. This in turn reduces the amount of irrigation that is needed to keep the new sod from drying out and save the customer money on watering bills. It also help reduce the stress on the already stressed out turf, reduceing the stress helps the plant recover faster and start growing sooner.

Of course, just spraying roundup and throwing down the sod is faster and easier, If you can get away with it.

Dirty Water
02-04-2006, 08:57 PM
Does anyone else see the irony in Georges signature?

Call us if you need it done rite (502) 421 9747 or (502) 439 7991

Precision
02-04-2006, 10:00 PM
Does anyone else see the irony in Georges signature?

I was trying to ignore that. Seems like I pissed him off enough without pointing that out.

baddboygeorge
02-04-2006, 11:19 PM
never pissed love the comments thanks george

sheshovel
02-06-2006, 03:30 PM
Thankyou guys for the back-up here...Yer always around when I need you!

YardPro
02-06-2006, 08:29 PM
3 for poper prep methods a five against..this is about the same % of good landscape installers and so-so ones.If you want your business to grow and thrive..your rep depends on every piece of work you do to be the best it can possibly be...and not cutting corners to save work or money.You get used to doing things from the soil up and doing them right from the beggining..or you can get used to going back and fixing your mistakes on your dime.Which choice do you want to make for your business?

lol,

i always get a kick out of how people think that thier way is always the only way...and bash others for not going through unnecessary steps..just becuase they read in a book somewhere that you should do this or that.

do you rototill soil, take samples, ammend as per results to get the exact micronutrient levels, make sure that your pH is correct, and also make sure you have the perfect soil composition (clay/loam/sand)??
do you, after finishing ammendments, the re test to make sure your ammendments achieved your wanted goals??? ON EVERY JOB??????
no you don't...so you are "cutting corners".. just the corners YOU feel it is OK to cut...

if we followed every detail that some PHD came up with,, we would be out of business... just remember the old saying..... "those that can, do, those that can't -teach"


any method that ends with the same result is the right way.. and if you understand how the materials you are working with actually grow, then you and determine what is ok and what is not.

PurpHaze
02-06-2006, 09:31 PM
THIS post sounds a lot like teaching... or is it preaching? :p

sheshovel
02-06-2006, 09:51 PM
Are you saying I get all my info out of a book
Yard-pro?I suggest you change your user name.Remember that we were talking about laying new sod over old here.
That is what we were talking about.
And yes,I do.

PurpHaze
02-06-2006, 10:01 PM
Uh, oh... another cat fight abrewin'. :rolleyes:

sheshovel
02-06-2006, 10:03 PM
PUrple a cat fight is between two females.I'd say this is between two "Pro's"fight or if one is a real pro and the other gets her info from a book or from hands on expierience.

PurpHaze
02-06-2006, 10:14 PM
Smack him with the book then. :p

[Now weighing in in this corner... Sheshovel... the "Feisty Librarian".]

sheshovel
02-07-2006, 12:07 AM
any method that ends with the same result is the right way.. and if you understand how the materials you are working with actually grow, then you and determine what is ok and what is not.
{Quote Yard-Pro}
That is what I am saying the results are NOT the same..the methods I mentioned have a much better result .Next time I see them I will take a pic..but since I hardly EVER see that method of work done in this profession,It may take me awhile to actually get a pic to show you the results.Where you get the idea that all my knowlage is right from the pages of a book I do not know..but at least show me respect I deserve in answering this guys question correctly.

YardPro
02-07-2006, 07:54 AM
if the soils are not compacted and do not need ammending then the results WILL be the same...

i have answered this question correctly.. you have given the knee jerk reaction that by not performing steps that indeed may not be necessary, he will get an inferior job...simply not true....
sheshovel... i have a degree in biology with a triple concentration in physiology,anatomy and cell biology... i know backwards and forwards how plants grow, and what is needed or not needed for them to flourish..

so don't get on your high horse and say that what i and a few other members said will guarantee inferior performance. It is simply not true.... if you think it is so, how about a detailed explination of why it will not work as well....

the decomposing sod layer will make quite a happy home for the new roots to grow down into... the main reason for tilling is to loosten soils for oxygen penetration.... there will be plenty of oxygen able to get into the old sod layer..it will be nice and loose, the new roots will penetrate very easially.

also there will me a lot of microbial activity decomposing the old sod and slowly releasing nitrogen in thier waste for the new sod to uptake..

remember that grasses have covered savanahs, fields and praries for hundreds of thousands of years... long before we were here with our tillers, ammandments, etc.....so why do they need so much help now????

if however you are on rock hard clay, etc, then yes you need to till to break it up., but i still would not remove all the old grass... only whatever is on the surface so i could not smooth it out...

6'7 330
02-07-2006, 08:06 AM
For what it worth our method lol.


kill existing turf

Take soil test amend soil if needed.

Take tractor and tiller or walk behind tiller and till it
rake and level the grade

Get pallets of sod.

Take sod off pallets

Have employees lay the sod---being good employees that they are, they stagger the sod.
Roll the sod .

bicmudpuppy
02-07-2006, 02:43 PM
Was trying to find another quote and found this pissin' match. I'll join in for a couple of comments. First, IF the existing yard is so bad you had to kill the whole thing............why would you assume a new layer of sod would fix it? Second, if you lay sod over green manure (the dead grass and thatch layer) that manure will steal most if not all of the available nitrogen and many other nutrients as it breaks down. Yes, down the road, that decomposed material will be great fertilizer, but not for six months or so. If you had a decent enough cover to justify killing it fist, why not slit seed (not verticut) into the dead turf and follow up in a very short period with pre-emergent once the new seed germinates. Slit seeding is less invasive than tilling or verticuting so weed seeds are not going to be an issue. Slit seeding in two or three directions will provide a thick enough new turf to provide a quality lawn. The dead sod layer will provide a great mulch for the new seed and the decomposition of the thatch will be above the root zone of the new seed so any lost nutrients from the decomposition will not affect the new turf coming in. This new turf will require less water than sod and will be stronger than any transplanted sod job in a much shorter time frame. As to the benefits of amending soil for turf, you guys have been landscaping and up selling for way to long a time. Grass is natures solution to crappy soil. Nothing builds, creates, grows quality top soil like grass. If you can fertilize after it germinates and feed it as it grows, grass will amend that soil profile better than all the artificial amending you could provide. It just takes longer, but what are you going to be growing there besides grass? All by itself, healthy grass will increase organic matter within the soil, relieve compaction, provide its own mulch.

muddstopper
02-07-2006, 06:53 PM
Mudpuppy hit the nail on the head. If the soil was perfect to start with then the person wouldn't need to be replacing their existing sod.

I dont care what kind of degrees anybody has. comparing a lawn to "savanahs, fields and praries", (should have took a few spelling lessons while still in school), is just plain wrong. Prairies and Savannah's have been growing for centuries without any help from man. they have developed their own micro environments complete with all the living organisms to make them self sustaining . Most lawns are void of the very micro-organisms that they need to do what needs to be done to nourish the turf to health. Heck, most lawns dont even contain a native grass type for that particular area. Lawns are further hampered by excessive fertilizer applications which further destroys the soil. You cant grow healthy plants without healthy soil, fertilizer has never made a soil healthier, therefore you cant grow healthy plants with fertilizer.

I aint going to say you cant roundup a lawn and then lay sod over it and it will live or die. I will say that taking the proper steps for laying sod gives it a better chance of success. There is more than one way to do things, some ways are better than others.

I dont have a degree in biology, but I did stay in a HolidayInn last nite.

PurpHaze
02-07-2006, 10:16 PM
I'm not saying it (laying sod over grass) is right or wrong but to my thinking won't the grass dying under the sod give off heat as it decays that might damage the new sod?

bicmudpuppy
02-07-2006, 10:21 PM
I'm not saying it (laying sod over grass) is right or wrong but to my thinking won't the grass dying under the sod give off heat as it decays that might damage the new sod?
Organic chem was sooooooo many lifetimes ago, but.........
I doubt enough heat would be generated by the anaerobic decomposition, but the resources used by that decomposition would not be conducive to healthy turf.

PurpHaze
02-07-2006, 10:28 PM
Thanks. I do know that in a lot of construction sites the fill soil cannot have any organic material (i.e. grass/sod) because it's too hard to compact and the decaying then creates voids.

bicmudpuppy
02-07-2006, 10:51 PM
Thanks. I do know that in a lot of construction sites the fill soil cannot have any organic material (i.e. grass/sod) because it's too hard to compact and the decaying then creates voids.
C'mon Hayes, your an irrigation type! Don't tell me you haven't been on the repair end of 3' of backfill that is 4-5 months old and you dig down through the old sod layer and you get that wonderful aroma as you dig that last 8-12" to pipe. That layer of material will still wreak and steal the air out of your hole for over a year in some soils. I have experienced this in sites where the renovation was over two years prior. The longer it has been the less vile digging through it is, but I am sure nothing desireable would grow in that environment in the first couple of months if it had a choice.
]

sheshovel
02-07-2006, 10:58 PM
Gee then Yard Pro..I sure don't have your education under my belt...best just read my sig line on this one too rather than argue with you I will concede this discussion to you though I will always answer similar questions in this same way.So get yer degree out and be ready to use it in your arguments at any time you will need it.Please do not take this as a personal affront..it is not ment to be like that and again I apologize if you took anything I said to heart against you or your superior knowledge.
:p I like you I really do.:p

bicmudpuppy
02-07-2006, 11:47 PM
if the soils are not compacted and do not need ammending then the results WILL be the same...

i have answered this question correctly.. you have given the knee jerk reaction that by not performing steps that indeed may not be necessary, he will get an inferior job...simply not true....
sheshovel... i have a degree in biology with a triple concentration in physiology,anatomy and cell biology... i know backwards and forwards how plants grow, and what is needed or not needed for them to flourish..

so don't get on your high horse and say that what i and a few other members said will guarantee inferior performance. It is simply not true.... if you think it is so, how about a detailed explination of why it will not work as well....

the decomposing sod layer will make quite a happy home for the new roots to grow down into... the main reason for tilling is to loosten soils for oxygen penetration.... there will be plenty of oxygen able to get into the old sod layer..it will be nice and loose, the new roots will penetrate very easially.

also there will me a lot of microbial activity decomposing the old sod and slowly releasing nitrogen in thier waste for the new sod to uptake..

remember that grasses have covered savanahs, fields and praries for hundreds of thousands of years... long before we were here with our tillers, ammandments, etc.....so why do they need so much help now????

if however you are on rock hard clay, etc, then yes you need to till to break it up., but i still would not remove all the old grass... only whatever is on the surface so i could not smooth it out...
The VERY first thing I learned in college, was a complete lack of respect for college education for its own sake. Yes, decomposed organic matter is great, BUT decomposing organic matter is a nightmare waiting to destroy the work you have done. Yes, grass is the best soil enhancer out there, but it does take decades to accomplish what a little work can help in a short period of time. Putting soil on top of dead organic material is going to cause anaerobic decomposition. An educated person like yourself should then have the background to understand the problem created. Basic organic chemistry tells us this is an undesirable situation. Last, if I hadn't learned it before college, I would have picked up the habit of using a spell checker when I want people to take my education seriously. Not being able to properly express oneself with language is the first true sign of ignorance. That the mistakes were made primarily in terms directly related to the discussion does nothing to help your credibility. I cringe at the mistakes I am going to have to ignore as it goes through your quoted text before the spell checker gets to my prose.

muddstopper
02-08-2006, 02:27 AM
Yes, grass is the best soil enhancer out there, but it does take decades to accomplish what a little work can help in a short period of time.

Actually, grass isn't the best soil enhancer out there. It will decay and contribute to the soil but the carbon/nitrogen rate is better using woody/leafy materials. Each type of material will build up the humus layer in the soil. Each material also requires a different micro environment containing different micro organisms that are beneficial to the host plants. Humus obtained from fields and prairies will contain better micro-organisms for growing grass than the humus that is taken from the forest floor. A lot of micro-organisms are host specific, this has been proven time and again by peope trying to establish plants in areas that they are not native to. They simply wont grow well unless the proper fungi, bacteria, etc are added to the soil.

PurpHaze
02-08-2006, 08:45 AM
C'mon Hayes, your an irrigation type! Don't tell me you haven't been on the repair end of 3' of backfill that is 4-5 months old and you dig down through the old sod layer and you get that wonderful aroma as you dig that last 8-12" to pipe. That layer of material will still wreak and steal the air out of your hole for over a year in some soils. I have experienced this in sites where the renovation was over two years prior. The longer it has been the less vile digging through it is, but I am sure nothing desireable would grow in that environment in the first couple of months if it had a choice.

Yup... been there, done that. It's also often like trying to dig through steel wool. :p

sheshovel
02-08-2006, 01:09 PM
. Yes, decomposed organic matter is great, BUT decomposing organic matter is a nightmare waiting to destroy the work you have done.
{Quote Mudpuppy}
That's exactly what I was saying in my 2nd post in this thread and it is correct.

YardPro
02-13-2006, 12:08 AM
The VERY first thing I learned in college, was a complete lack of respect for college education for its own sake. Yes, decomposed organic matter is great, BUT decomposing organic matter is a nightmare waiting to destroy the work you have done. Yes, grass is the best soil enhancer out there, but it does take decades to accomplish what a little work can help in a short period of time. Putting soil on top of dead organic material is going to cause anaerobic decomposition. An educated person like yourself should then have the background to understand the problem created. Basic organic chemistry tells us this is an undesirable situation. Last, if I hadn't learned it before college, I would have picked up the habit of using a spell checker when I want people to take my education seriously. Not being able to properly express oneself with language is the first true sign of ignorance. That the mistakes were made primarily in terms directly related to the discussion does nothing to help your credibility. I cringe at the mistakes I am going to have to ignore as it goes through your quoted text before the spell checker gets to my prose.


hogwash.......
Decades?? nonsense... in less than a year it will be broken down....
and anaerobic respiration only occurs in the absence of oxygen. If we were talking about feet in the ground i can see that, but at the depth we are talking about there will be plenty of oxygen. there will be earthworms, grubs, ants, etc... all oxygen breathing animals.... there will be lots of aerobic organisms...also rainwater has oxygen in it as is enters the ground, so the anaerobic theory is absurd

also there is absolutely nothing about anaerobic organisms that would in any way harm anything.. they just work very slowly...how could they possibly wreck what i am trying to accomplish??? if ( as you claim)it takes decades for them to break down the grass, then it would take decades for them to produce whatever detrimental waste products you seem th think they produce.. but that is not even the case in this scenario.
also organic chemistry has nothing to do with any living organism... (reread how you use the organic chemistry) it is about chemical compounds with a carbon backbone... guess you never took organic chemistry...... as a matter of fact the entire study of chemicals has nothing to do with organisms, anaerobic, or aerobic respiration... that is biology.. so don't go making accusations when the basis of your argument is totally wrong....

i never claimed to have degrees in English, communications, litterature, etc... can my spelling be off.. yes, but so is everybody's here, most of what you are talking about are typo's, but i do misspell words... ever read a chemistry professor's writings, pre editing??????

and i do use a spell checker whenever writing for proposals, clients, company letters, etc... but i don't worry about it here, because the only time someone posts something about someone else's spelling, it is because they want more ammo to argue with, because they do not have a very strong case....

muddstopper
02-13-2006, 08:35 PM
Yardpro,I think you mistook the meaning of this sentence.
but it does take decades to accomplish what a little work can help in a short period of time.

When talking about improveing the soil and the breakdown of the organic material you have two different time frames. What little organic matter that the dead grass will provide will do little or next to nothing toward improving the soil. On the other hand, breaking the soil up and incorporating the proper soil amendments can improve the soil in a very short time frame.
To me and my way of thinking, if the lawn needs renovating, it is because a problem exsists with the soil, altho, there can be many other problems that you cant see on and internet forum. With that train of thought, simply laying new sod over old sod, isnt going to cure the problem. To cure the conditions that caused the old lawn to fail in the first place is going to require improving the soil.

kmann
02-13-2006, 09:41 PM
Don't tell me you guys lay good sod right over old sod..PLEEEZE don't tell me that is how you prep an area for sod installation..Oh gosh what the heck is up with that?
WRONG !!! Preping a lawn does not necessarly need to be effeicient..it needs to be RIGHT!
Remove all the old sod and weeds-amend native soil with compost within the 1st 4"at least,
fill any low spots and grade rake to drain and remove any debri,
roll and fill and rake
again.
moisten to settle soil.
Add any starter fert and rake it lightly into top of soil.
Lay your sod.
I do more steps than this depending on if there is irrigation sprinklers or not.
.THE ABOVE LIST is the basic steps ONLY
Happens down here just about everyday year round. Guys hit it with Roundup scalp it and a week later, throw down some new stuff.

sheshovel
02-13-2006, 10:04 PM
Gee that's too bad.I hate to see that kind of installation..This is just plain lazyness and grab the$$ and run work in my book and in muddstoppers book and several other business owner's books on this site.So I guess it comes back down to this..
How do you want to run your business and how do you want to do your work?

kmann
02-13-2006, 10:20 PM
Gee that's too bad.I hate to see that kind of installation..This is just plain lazyness and grab the$$ and run work in my book and in muddstoppers book and several other business owner's books on this site.So I guess it comes back down to this..
How do you want to run your business and how do you want to do your work?
The problem is there are alot of Blue Hairs down here who will go with the cheapest price. Quote them a price for renting a Sod Cutter, removal of the old Grass and Dump fees and they will laugh at you. Thats why I try not to get involved with it. There are companies down here who do nothing but Sod and with a crew of "Foreign Guest Workers" will lay 10 Pallets in a couple hrs and go on to another job. They buy the Sod for About 85.00 or less per Pallet, remove the Old Grass and install the new for 225.00 per Pallet. It can also be difficult down here to get Sod, unless you are buying in bulk. 10 Pallets or more.

FIRESCOOBY
03-19-2006, 06:50 PM
Remove all the old sod and weeds-amend native soil with compost within the 1st 4"at least,


I have a quick (and probably dumb) question. How do you guys and gals go about mixing the compost/topsoil with existing soil? Do you have it delivered then move it on site by tractor bucket then just rake it in?

Thanks

muddstopper
03-20-2006, 07:41 PM
Spreading the compost or top soil is easy if you have the right equipment. I just dump it in little piles all over the lawn and then run over it with my harley rake to spread it out. If I am trying to improve the organic matter content in the soil I will then use a roto tiller and till the compost into the soil, as well as any fertilier and lime that is needed. I use the harley rake to smooth and level and then I love to use my areo-vator to leave those little dimples in the soil surface that collects and hold the moisture from my hydroseeding mulch.