Milk Crate Filter?

[drsogr]

I have a customer that is wanting to add a waterfall to their existing pond. They were displeased with their last filter and pump. So I did some research and I went to a place in town that specializes in ponds and waterfalls. I have a 7' dia. pond and he was telling me that they take filtermedia and put it in a milk crate. This is their filter. It surrounds the pump. In the smaller pond feeding the pond they also have the same thing. Has anyone done this? I am thinking I could make something that looks more professional. But I like the idea. Looking at the aquascape filters, its basically the same principal.

Also I was thinking of using a 1500 gph pump for this 900 gallon pond. The waterfall will be up 4 ft. Will this pump be suffecient to make a gushing waterfall?

[dmcoburn]

Filter in a crate with pump in the middle sounds like a bad idea, not enough filter media, no skimmer in the system, have to swim/get wet to maintain it.

Check out the aquascape system, it is mostly propaganda and marketing and it does cost more than if you do your own stuff, but it is a solid system, and the tech department can be helpful. They have a book they will sell you called the Pond Builders Bible. Lots of info about sizing pumps, etc. They ship things fairly quick when I compare it to other vendors that use truck shipping too.

To get a good flowing waterfall you will need about 1500gph for each foot in width on the waterfall (spots wider will have less flow, spots narrower will really rage). The trick is the Total Dynamic Head (TDH), you said your fall was to be 4' in elevation, so you need to make sure the pump you use can deliver the gallonage at 4' and with what ever size pipe you may be using (bigger is better, or at least more fail proof) buy a pump with a graph or a table on the packaging or in the manual so you can be sure how it will perform at whatever height you are trying to achieve.

Good luck, ponds and waterfalls are fun, as with everything though, the details are best worked out before hand if possible, that way when you are on the site putting it in you can deal with the unforseen details in a professional manner.

dmcoburn

[drsogr]

Filter in a crate with pump in the middle sounds like a bad idea, not enough filter media, no skimmer in the system, have to swim/get wet to maintain it.

Check out the aquascape system, it is mostly propaganda and marketing and it does cost more than if you do your own stuff, but it is a solid system, and the tech department can be helpful. They have a book they will sell you called the Pond Builders Bible. Lots of info about sizing pumps, etc. They ship things fairly quick when I compare it to other vendors that use truck shipping too.

To get a good flowing waterfall you will need about 1500gph for each foot in width on the waterfall (spots wider will have less flow, spots narrower will really rage). The trick is the Total Dynamic Head (TDH), you said your fall was to be 4' in elevation, so you need to make sure the pump you use can deliver the gallonage at 4' and with what ever size pipe you may be using (bigger is better, or at least more fail proof) buy a pump with a graph or a table on the packaging or in the manual so you can be sure how it will perform at whatever height you are trying to achieve.

Good luck, ponds and waterfalls are fun, as with everything though, the details are best worked out before hand if possible, that way when you are on the site putting it in you can deal with the unforseen details in a professional manner.

dmcoburn

Hey thanks for chiming in. I agree that skimmer is still needed. But this would be used for the top pond that is feeding the waterfall. I took a look at the microfalls filter by aquascape and it seams like a joke to me. It had maybe two filters in it. The lady selling it told me that I should put the micro falls filter inside my top pond, that feed the waterfall. I looked in theirs top pond and all they had was filter media in a big bag. I was thinking of using this to eliminate the skimmer, but it is still a good idea to have.

On a side note aquascape must be making a fortune off of their supplies. What they are selling just seams to be too simple for the prices they are asking.

[fishinman22487]

Hey thanks for chiming in. I agree that skimmer is still needed. But this would be used for the top pond that is feeding the waterfall. I took a look at the microfalls filter by aquascape and it seams like a joke to me. It had maybe two filters in it. The lady selling it told me that I should put the micro falls filter inside my top pond, that feed the waterfall. I looked in theirs top pond and all they had was filter media in a big bag. I was thinking of using this to eliminate the skimmer, but it is still a good idea to have.

On a side note aquascape must be making a fortune off of their supplies. What they are selling just seams to be too simple for the prices they are asking.

It always amazes me how people always have to base the product on the PRICE. Why not the value you are getting when you install an Aquascape system, I mean your paying for the luxury of coming home to your OWN paradise in your backyard everyday!!!
I would go with the microfalls, it will perform much better than a milk grate:p

[dmcoburn]

I guess I didn't fully understand and might not still understand the pond system you are retrofitting. Now my understanding is that you actually have two ponds, a bottom (presumably larger)pond that is connected to the top pond by a moving waterfall. I guess my question would be: where is your pump? I would expect the pump is in the bottom pond feeding the upper pond. The aquascape system as well as some others I have encountered utilizes a skimmer vault that houses the pump on the margin of the bottom/lower pond. The skimmer vault handles most of the details... it controls the water level, it houses an auto refill valve if you use one, it houses the pump, it also has a net or basket that collects the biggest debris and takes it out of the system so it doesn't accumulate on the pond bottom and rot, it will sometimes have some filter brushes or media sheets to pre-filter and to some extent probably hold a colony of bacteria, it also is where you place the ponds overflow. Does your skimmer work like this or is it just drawing water through a remote pump (like a pool system). The aquascape system also in theory is used with the biofalls, in your case they are saying you could use the microfalls and just set it flush or slightly above flush with the upper ponds overflow (the beginning of the waterfall so it basically goes unnoticed. In the Microfalls is where there is a combination of filter mats and bags of filter "media" are and the water being pumped from below is forced to travel through. This is where the real bacteria colonies reside and "Filter".

I think normally you don't necessarily have the upper "pond" and this is where your system is different. Where was the filter on the old pond and how did it work? sounds like the pond you are adding is the upper pond, and maybe the question should be asked, does there need to be an upper pond? are your clients specifically asking for that?

[dmcoburn]

True True fshinman, I believe that it is worth the price just for the fact that I am a Landscaper that needs someone else to come up with these components, I dont have the time. Aquascapes provides it and makes it easy to do, I can just focus on creating interesting things with thier components. Check out some of thier new large feature components--just modified Centipedes in that you can use it as a bog, wetland filter, wet well, retention pond filter, etc. you just keep adding sections to take care of huge parking lots or use the mini centipede for the back yard pondless waterfall. If you believe in the biological filter and you want to make money seems like anyone ought to take a look at the filters offered by aquascapes

[hole in one lco]

if you go the cheap way put lava rock in the basket to helps filter

[drsogr]

True True fshinman, I believe that it is worth the price just for the fact that I am a Landscaper that needs someone else to come up with these components, I dont have the time. Aquascapes provides it and makes it easy to do, I can just focus on creating interesting things with thier components. Check out some of thier new large feature components--just modified Centipedes in that you can use it as a bog, wetland filter, wet well, retention pond filter, etc. you just keep adding sections to take care of huge parking lots or use the mini centipede for the back yard pondless waterfall. If you believe in the biological filter and you want to make money seems like anyone ought to take a look at the filters offered by aquascapes

Common guys...I am just trying to come up with cheaper ways to do things. This is method is used by a local nursery that has over 10 ponds. This is what they do! Now when I go inside they try to sell me the aquascape method. It doesn't make sense! I can understand what you are talking about when using aquascape products. You can make a lot more profit by using their overpriced equipment. You can show them the value. Have you seen their biofalls? In the future I will be using the same methods as you guys. So that I can make the money. But I was intigued by this simple idea.

[drsogr]

if you go the cheap way put lava rock in the basket to helps filter

Thanks for the idea. Has anyone seen charcoal used in pond filters?

[drsogr]

It always amazes me how people always have to base the product on the PRICE. Why not the value you are getting when you install an Aquascape system, I mean your paying for the luxury of coming home to your OWN paradise in your backyard everyday!!!
I would go with the microfalls, it will perform much better than a milk grate:p

Why did you buy a dakota? You should have bought a dodge ram with a hemi and 22" rims. It always amazes me how people base the product on price, you should be thinking about the value. I mean you could be sitting in leather seats with more power than you could ever handle. You could be driving in your own oasis everyday!!

[drsogr]

I guess I didn't fully understand and might not still understand the pond system you are retrofitting. Now my understanding is that you actually have two ponds, a bottom (presumably larger)pond that is connected to the top pond by a moving waterfall. I guess my question would be: where is your pump? I would expect the pump is in the bottom pond feeding the upper pond. The aquascape system as well as some others I have encountered utilizes a skimmer vault that houses the pump on the margin of the bottom/lower pond. The skimmer vault handles most of the details... it controls the water level, it houses an auto refill valve if you use one, it houses the pump, it also has a net or basket that collects the biggest debris and takes it out of the system so it doesn't accumulate on the pond bottom and rot, it will sometimes have some filter brushes or media sheets to pre-filter and to some extent probably hold a colony of bacteria, it also is where you place the ponds overflow. Does your skimmer work like this or is it just drawing water through a remote pump (like a pool system). The aquascape system also in theory is used with the biofalls, in your case they are saying you could use the microfalls and just set it flush or slightly above flush with the upper ponds overflow (the beginning of the waterfall so it basically goes unnoticed. In the Microfalls is where there is a combination of filter mats and bags of filter "media" are and the water being pumped from below is forced to travel through. This is where the real bacteria colonies reside and "Filter".

I think normally you don't necessarily have the upper "pond" and this is where your system is different. Where was the filter on the old pond and how did it work? sounds like the pond you are adding is the upper pond, and maybe the question should be asked, does there need to be an upper pond? are your clients specifically asking for that?

You don't normally see the small upper pond because people are uncreative. There doesn't need to be an upper pond at all. It is used to make it look more natural. IMO the biofalls look cheasy.

Not that milkcrates don't!

[fishinman22487]

Why did you buy a dakota? You should have bought a dodge ram with a hemi and 22" rims. It always amazes me how people base the product on price, you should be thinking about the value. I mean you could be sitting in leather seats with more power than you could ever handle. You could be driving in your own oasis everyday!!

HAHAHA well forget the dodge ram and all the rims. If I had extra money I would have bought the Dodge Mega Cab!!! That truck is a king kong, lol. I heard there coming out with a dually mega cab, not thats what im sayin.
My truck aint no lil dakota it can pull an enclosed trailer

[drsogr]

Ya know I am just giving ya crap. Nice Dakota. I used to own a 2001 dakota. It was a good truck. By dad used to own a 2000 quad cab. I was amazed by how much cab room it had. I am 6'3 and was comfotable in the back seat in an 8 hour drive.

[fishinman22487]

True True fshinman, I believe that it is worth the price just for the fact that I am a Landscaper that needs someone else to come up with these components, I dont have the time. Aquascapes provides it and makes it easy to do, I can just focus on creating interesting things with thier components. Check out some of thier new large feature components--just modified Centipedes in that you can use it as a bog, wetland filter, wet well, retention pond filter, etc. you just keep adding sections to take care of huge parking lots or use the mini centipede for the back yard pondless waterfall. If you believe in the biological filter and you want to make money seems like anyone ought to take a look at the filters offered by aquascapes
Aquascapes has there head on straight, for sure with large scale projects!!!!!!!
Back in October we did a $30,000 job at a retention pond with 2 wet wells and a bog, we used three pumps and about 50 tons of gravel to cover the bottom of the pond to help keep it clear.. also we used an air station in the middle... It was the best project we did, everything went smoothly and finished it in a week.
Here are som pics!!!

[drsogr]

Wow that looks like a pretty large scale project. I wouldn't even think about doing a project that big!

[dmcoburn]

:cool: Did you do the wall system too? Looks like a pretty cool project.

Here are a couple of pics of a waterfall we did last spring along with a couple of patios and lots of big steps, plants, etc. Used three pumps to acheive flow we needed for the 25' elevation drop on the falls. The waterfall was about 100' long and we had to use two 3" pipes to supply it. we couldn't do any diging because it is all on ledge. cost about 110,000 in VT. A good deal I think since I would expect some of the other guys in the area would have easily doubled the price.

[hole in one lco]

:cool: Did you do the wall system too? Looks like a pretty cool project.

Here are a couple of pics of a waterfall we did last spring along with a couple of patios and lots of big steps, plants, etc. Used three pumps to acheive flow we needed for the 25' elevation drop on the falls. The waterfall was about 100' long and we had to use two 3" pipes to supply it. we couldn't do any diging because it is all on ledge. cost about 110,000 in VT. A good deal I think since I would expect some of the other guys in the area would have easily doubled the price.
how much water do you loose to splashing

[dmcoburn]

not much splash when the wind is average, I just tweaked them to stay where they needed to be, but because there is so much drop on so many sections there is a lot of evaporation. There were definately lots of challenges on this one. This system is near the borderline of when the falls are too big to be supplied by the lower pond volume wise because we were so confined for space in the lower pond with the shape of the ledge. The lower pond sits right in a natural depression in the ledge that runs about 18"-24" deep, 4-6' wide, and 50' long. My math isn't the best, but I figure its about 4000 gal, I'm going to put the meter on it after we clean it out again this spring to get a good reading.

[drsogr]

Wow that is some nice stuff. That is some work you can be proud of!

[fishinman22487]

Awesome work you've done. I like the second picture the best, its a good angle.
Did you make that bridge or buy a kit and put it together?

No, someone else installed the retaining wall around the retention pond.

[dmcoburn]

Awesome work you've done. I like the second picture the best, its a good angle.
Did you make that bridge or buy a kit and put it together?

No, someone else installed the retaining wall around the retention pond.


Sorry about the delay, we built it by having a local metal fabricator build the frame, then we added the wood. I believe its 10' long, 3' wide. THe wood is Ironwood.

[n2h20]

if you want to make a filter yourself i would suggets a settlement chamber, at least two chamber. with nothing in the 1st and some sort of media in the second. this is cheap and will work the best for a DIY filter. If you use a milk crate in the pond it will be a pain the the a** to clean.
I would not suggest AS filter of any sort.. if you buy one of AS's filter you might as well buy a filter that will work.

[krista]

I use Aquascape Design System Only. The System has been tested and performs. besides that- if you have issues you can call for help.
There stuff works!
Dont mess around with the other junk out there. It may look okay when you install- but what about a month or 6mos to a year later? Are they going to be able to referryou for the job? If you research whats available on the market and the companies- you will want to use Aquascape designs.
If anyones in Wisconsin- subcontract your work to us!

[drsogr]

I use Aquascape Design System Only. The System has been tested and performs. besides that- if you have issues you can call for help.
There stuff works!
Dont mess around with the other junk out there. It may look okay when you install- but what about a month or 6mos to a year later? Are they going to be able to referryou for the job? If you research whats available on the market and the companies- you will want to use Aquascape designs.
If anyones in Wisconsin- subcontract your work to us!

I went to an aquascape plunge seminar on wednesday. Let me tell you, they are a little too amway/cult for me. I really like the way they advertise their product thought and stand behind their products. But trying push me into buying a $2000 dollar excellence program was a little too much. You sound to me like you have not tried the "other junk." I was looking at the savio products and comparing them to the aquascape. Let me tell ya it was no comparision, as far as product quality. I emailed savio a week ago and never got a response. In that regard aquascape has the edge.

I think if I do decide to use aquascape I will keep them at a distance. I don't feel like being part of a cult.

[n2h20]

i dont know about savio custimer service but it think the product is far superior. Have you seen and As pond a year later? early srping? the rocks are allin the bottom the spray foam is showing, the waterfall is falling apart and there is srting algae all over the place..
As has the edge only because they mass market and advertise like crazy. ill take a savio, oase, ulitma II filter over ANy AS system any day.

[drsogr]

i dont know about savio custimer service but it think the product is far superior. Have you seen and As pond a year later? early srping? the rocks are allin the bottom the spray foam is showing, the waterfall is falling apart and there is srting algae all over the place..
As has the edge only because they mass market and advertise like crazy. ill take a savio, oase, ulitma II filter over ANy AS system any day.

I loved during the plunge seminar how they told us, there is no reason to try anything else. Our product is proven. That tells me right there that I need to try something else! Aquascape has a great setup for people wanting to make quick money. The marketing is there...everything comes in a box...even the support is there. I just wish they would put more time in their designs. What good is quick money if you can't provide quality?

Anyway N2H20 you seem like you are someone that wants to put out a quality product. I have heard those names floating around as quality products from several other people. I hope to try them in the future and compare.

[drsogr]

i dont know about savio custimer service but it think the product is far superior. Have you seen and As pond a year later? early srping? the rocks are allin the bottom the spray foam is showing, the waterfall is falling apart and there is srting algae all over the place..
As has the edge only because they mass market and advertise like crazy. ill take a savio, oase, ulitma II filter over ANy AS system any day.

BTW I really like the way your website is set up for the customers to buy maintenance products. Thats a great idea.

[n2h20]

thanks.. i am herer to help.. if you ever need help with a design or filtration or anything pond ill do my best to help you or anyone... ive gotten a ton of info off this site and will do my part to pay it back...

[drsogr]

Thanks....I will be sure to take you up on that in the future!

[krista]

I went to an aquascape plunge seminar on wednesday. Let me tell you, they are a little too amway/cult for me. I really like the way they advertise their product thought and stand behind their products. But trying push me into buying a $2000 dollar excellence program was a little too much. You sound to me like you have not tried the "other junk." I was looking at the savio products and comparing them to the aquascape. Let me tell ya it was no comparision, as far as product quality. I emailed savio a week ago and never got a response. In that regard aquascape has the edge.

I think if I do decide to use aquascape I will keep them at a distance. I don't feel like being part of a cult.
Yes- they are pushy in the marketing.
I have seen other products in action. And yes- i want the support. PS We did not pay 2000 for an excellence program either. But their training and support is great!