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482roller
02-16-2006, 08:11 PM
Does anyone know of any companys that offer a good organic step program?
4 step or maybe even 7 step, any help would be great.

Microbe
02-17-2006, 01:37 AM
Microbial Inoculants, Kelp, Nematodes, Compost/Compost Tea, befefical insects, and a whole lot of knowledge. :drinkup:

TurfProSTL
02-23-2006, 01:36 AM
http://www.nutrientsplus.com

They can help you with a program. You will probably need to purchase in pallet quantities.

livingsoils
02-23-2006, 05:58 PM
www.soilfirst.com

Earthworks seem to be a good product.:clapping: You might have to find a rep. in your area in order to get it delivered.
hope this helps
Mike

livingsoils
02-23-2006, 06:00 PM
I just noticed where you are located.:hammerhead: Try Fisher and Son, they are the supplier for your area.

www.fisherandson.com

muddstopper
02-23-2006, 06:27 PM
Going totally organic is possible, as long as you understand the limitations.
For years crops have been taken from the soil, along with all the nutrients contained in those crops. The result has been in crops whose nutritional value has become lower and lower. Fertilizer has been continually added to the soil to raise Nutrient levels in the soil and therefore the nutrient content in the crops. Fertilizer is organic too, it comes from the earth. The problem with the fertilization approach has been the addition of certain minerals to promote certain aspects of the crop. Mostly concentrating on NPK levels in the soil. Because farmers have concentrated on NPK and not on the other 14 necessary nutrients, mineral levels in the soil have become unbalanced. This has resulted in soils with less organic materials, since crops are removed and their nutrients not replaced to the soil. This has also led to less soil porosity which reduces the air and water holding capacities of the soil. The reduction of nutrient levels has led to reduced nutrients in the crop produced. Most here tend to think that simply adding organic material to the soil that they are improving the soil. Actually the organic material can be very short of the proper nutrients that the soil needs to bring the soil back into balance. The organic material is only as good as the source. Certain minerals are needed to help microbial populations survive and increase. As long as those minerals are present in your organic materials you can improve the soil. if not, you will still improve the soil but the amount of time it takes can be a lot longer. Some here promote bridge products which are a combination of organic and chemical fertilizer's. They are still concentrating on NPK and not taking into account the other nutrients the soil needs. When selecting your organic fertilizers, look for micro nutrient content as well as NPK. Calcium, Sulfur, Boron, etc, are all necessary for good plant growth. Organic materials can contain those nutrients but if the organic material came from soils low in these nutrients, your organic material will be low in these nutrients as well. If this is the case, supplemental applications of these products will be necessary also.

ArizPestWeed
02-23-2006, 10:41 PM
Does anyone know of any companys that offer a good organic step program?
4 step or maybe even 7 step, any help would be great.
Are you licensed cuzz it would be illegal for us to help you commit a crime ???
:rolleyes:

NattyLawn
02-23-2006, 11:12 PM
I thought he was a homeowner until I saw some of his "Just Starting in Business" posts...That question is very vague....482 needs to do some searching on his own...

dishboy
02-24-2006, 01:43 PM
Are you licensed cuzz it would be illegal for us to help you commit a crime ???
:rolleyes:

Last I checked it was not against forum rules or any law to do research on Organic fertilizer programs, although I am pretty sure it is against forum rules to harass other members.

To the OP I would suggest to read threads in this forum from the time the Organic forum was established, especially threads where timturf among others participated. This will bring you up to speed on Organics fast.

NattyLawn
02-24-2006, 02:38 PM
Last I checked it was not against forum rules or any law to do research on Organic fertilizer programs, although I am pretty sure it is against forum rules to harass other members.

To the OP I would suggest to read threads in this forum from the time the Organic forum was established, especially threads where timturf among others participated. This will bring you up to speed on Organics fast.

I'm still waiting for Tim to reply to the corn gluten thread where he asserts that CGM is too much N for the turf in Spring...

Grn Mtn
02-24-2006, 02:58 PM
I'm still waiting for Tim to reply to the corn gluten thread where he asserts that CGM is too much N for the turf in Spring...

Hey, me too:)

dishboy
02-24-2006, 04:13 PM
Hey, me too:)
If you apply CGM at the recommended rate for weed control it gives you way too much N for a springtime application.

ArizPestWeed
02-24-2006, 06:39 PM
Last I checked it was not against forum rules or any law to do research on Organic fertilizer programs, although I am pretty sure it is against forum rules to harass other members.

To the OP I would suggest to read threads in this forum from the time the Organic forum was established, especially threads where timturf among others participated. This will bring you up to speed on Organics fast.
You must be" EXTREMELY SENSITIVE " if you think that is harassment

NattyLawn
02-24-2006, 07:52 PM
If you apply CGM at the recommended rate for weed control it gives you way too much N for a springtime application.


OK then...Check out the responses to that I dug up online in the CGM thread and tell me the same thing...One of things I found is from our invisible moderator...

dishboy
02-25-2006, 01:45 AM
OK then...Check out the responses to that I dug up online in the CGM thread and tell me the same thing...One of things I found is from our invisible moderator...


Give me a link.

Are you talking about where David talks about having to mow his lawn twice a week because of the excessive growth. Two lbs of N in a early spring application is a culturial abomination IMO.

muddstopper
02-25-2006, 09:33 AM
Give me a link.

Are you talking about where David talks about having to mow his lawn twice a week because of the excessive growth. Two lbs of N in a early spring application is a culturial abomination IMO.

Thinking of organics and NPK in the same thought is an abomination in my way of thinking.

Soil should have a balance of nutrients, the continued application of organic materials that are high nitrogen is no better than using chemical nitrogen.

NattyLawn
02-25-2006, 10:08 AM
I found this on another site posted by our moderator, who I don't think is ever on here... Make sense of the whole too much N issue (to me anyway).

<<.No, no, NO! You're talking organic and still thinking chemicals. If you dissolved the corn meal in hydrochloric acid you might get a nitrogen value, but plants don't use hydrochloric acid. What you need to be interested in is the protein content of the corn meal. Nitrogen is a chemical with no food value. Protein is a food for the microbes. Protein is made up of many chemicals including nitrogen, but still I don't want to talk about nitrogen at all (I know, too late). Organic gardening is all about feeding real food (sugars, proteins, vitamins, and minerals) to the soil microbes. NPK, winterizer, and starter fertilizer are among the terms you will have to forget you ever knew. Instead you will need to brush up on bacteria, fungi, humic acid, compost, mulch, and a few other terms that are slipping my memory.

Getting to your question, you can get the general gist of the answer from what username posted. Corn meal is low on the protein list. Soy bean meal is very high. Blood meal and urine are both high but there is another consideration with organic food sources. That consideration is time to release the protein and convert it to plant food. Blood and urine convert so fast that you can burn your plant roots. That's a bad thing. If you will stick to the ground up grains on username's list you cannot go wrong. A good rate for corn meal is 10-40 pounds per 1,000 square feet. Alfalfa can go out at 10-25 pounds per 1,000. A good rate for soy bean meal is 5-20 pounds per 1,000 square feet. The range can vary depending on how deep your pockets are and what plants you're growing. Can you use too much? Yes. When you smother the grass you've used too much. If you use a lot and it rains right away, you might get a sour stink as the protein decomposes a little too fast. I think if you can use a mixture of grains with a dash of blood meal, you have a great home made organic fertilizer. If you're just starting out with organic, still to the low values of my suggested application rates.>>

Also:
Despite the 9-10% N in CGM, it is all insoluble and
unavailable to plants. It requires microbial digestion to be converted into
nitrates usable by the plant. This is a slow and metered process. It also
is dependent on the time of year. In spring soils are cool and microbial
activity is lower. Therefore, release is slower.

Norm Al
02-25-2006, 12:02 PM
did anyone know of an organic "step" program out there?

DUSTYCEDAR
02-25-2006, 12:16 PM
wow so much info form both sides of the fence
i will learn something here this year if it makes my head pop

muddstopper
02-25-2006, 01:01 PM
He's so wrong on so many different levels, I aint even going to go there.

timturf
02-25-2006, 09:05 PM
Thinking of organics and NPK in the same thought is an abomination in my way of thinking.

Soil should have a balance of nutrients, the continued application of organic materials that are high nitrogen is no better than using chemical nitrogen.

Soil should have a balance of nutrients, the continued application of organic materials that are high nitrogen is no better than using chemical nitrogen

And would applying 20 to 40 lb of cgm/m be considered high nitrogen? I believe so, since it's my understanding that cgm is ~ 10% nitrogen

timturf
02-25-2006, 09:33 PM
I'm still waiting for Tim to reply to the corn gluten thread where he asserts that CGM is too much N for the turf in Spring...

My reply, I agree with DISHBOY, if you apply cgm at recommended rates (20 to 40lbs/m) way too much n for cool season turfgrass grown in zones 5,6, &7.

I would like to see some university studies which recommends 2-4 lbs of n/m applied in one application in the spring on cool season turfgrass grown in zones 5,6,&7. Isn't cgm ~10% nitrogen

I believe cgm would be fine on warm season turfgrass, and maybe acceptable on cool season turfgrass grown in other zones than 5,6,7!

I'm not convinced that cgm gives an acceptable level of crab and goosegrass control, nor is an economical.

I've had great success growing residential cool season turfgrass in zone 7a, heat zone 7, applying 2.75 to 3.5 lbs of n/m/yr. Now these turfgrass have the clipping return to the soil. You must realize that my fertilizer is a fortified or bridge organic fertilizer, very little mop is allowed, and the sythetic nitrogen is high % slow release, and will have very little nitrogen loss thru leaching or volatiltion. My fert program ( maintainence) is over 50% natural organic, and I look closely at the salt index of my matrials!

I'm wondering, how many people can maintain quality cool season turfgrass, in zone 7, that ~ 7.5 months of cutting, applying less than 3.5 lbsof n /m/yr

How many lbs of n/m/yr do you apply nattylawn?

Is this reply satisfactory for you nattly lawn and grn mt.? Do you have other questions? I actually thought I had answered this previously!

tim

timturf
02-25-2006, 09:41 PM
I found this on another site posted by our moderator, who I don't think is ever on here... Make sense of the whole too much N issue (to me anyway).

<<.No, no, NO! You're talking organic and still thinking chemicals. If you dissolved the corn meal in hydrochloric acid you might get a nitrogen value, but plants don't use hydrochloric acid. What you need to be interested in is the protein content of the corn meal. Nitrogen is a chemical with no food value. Protein is a food for the microbes. Protein is made up of many chemicals including nitrogen, but still I don't want to talk about nitrogen at all (I know, too late). Organic gardening is all about feeding real food (sugars, proteins, vitamins, and minerals) to the soil microbes. NPK, winterizer, and starter fertilizer are among the terms you will have to forget you ever knew. Instead you will need to brush up on bacteria, fungi, humic acid, compost, mulch, and a few other terms that are slipping my memory.

Getting to your question, you can get the general gist of the answer from what username posted. Corn meal is low on the protein list. Soy bean meal is very high. Blood meal and urine are both high but there is another consideration with organic food sources. That consideration is time to release the protein and convert it to plant food. Blood and urine convert so fast that you can burn your plant roots. That's a bad thing. If you will stick to the ground up grains on username's list you cannot go wrong. A good rate for corn meal is 10-40 pounds per 1,000 square feet. Alfalfa can go out at 10-25 pounds per 1,000. A good rate for soy bean meal is 5-20 pounds per 1,000 square feet. The range can vary depending on how deep your pockets are and what plants you're growing. Can you use too much? Yes. When you smother the grass you've used too much. If you use a lot and it rains right away, you might get a sour stink as the protein decomposes a little too fast. I think if you can use a mixture of grains with a dash of blood meal, you have a great home made organic fertilizer. If you're just starting out with organic, still to the low values of my suggested application rates.>>

Also:
Despite the 9-10% N in CGM, it is all insoluble and
unavailable to plants. WRONG, it is slowly available, as you now stateIt requires microbial digestion to be converted into
nitrates usable by the plant. This is a slow and metered process. It also
is dependent on the time of year. In spring soils are cool and microbial
activity is lower. Therefore, release is slower. Their are many synethetic nitrogen sources that release thru microbial activity

NattyLawn,

I know our moderator is educate, but not in agronomy, from what I gather, self taught on organic growing. I would like to see him or somebody else post some sites that have done some scientific research, university, to the use of natural organic in improving the soil, soil life, and growth of turfgrass.

I agree that organics play an important part, and a healthy soil is very important!!!

NattyLawn
02-25-2006, 09:55 PM
Tim,

I've seen 2 replies where all you said cgm was too much N for cool season turf...One sentence....

You do little to actually give an answer...You nitpick on wording to make a case against what was read without really proving anything for yourself...Fact is like most people on here, your stance is based on your opinion...
CGM is not available until microbial digestion occurs, while a synthetic pre-em with fert needs no microbial activity for that to happen...Does a poly coating mean it breaks down slower via waterering, etc. or does it actually need microbial activity? When you use high salt synthetics year after year, how much microbial activity is left? Give me an example of some synthetic products please...

timturf
02-25-2006, 10:07 PM
Members,

It's been along time since I sat in a soil and fertilizer class , eary 70's, and I'll admit, not my strongest suit, but I received a c.

I stuggle with soils and scientific aspect of fertilizers, but understand the pratical application of fertilizers. I have read numerous post ( from moderator, muddstopper, and firms pushing organic soil health products) Now, when they get talking about protiens, converting to nitrogen, it starts to get furry. Some will say you need to feed the micro organism, I'll accept that, but you still need too feed the plants also! I agree with the general concept, believe organic matter is benefical to the health of the soil, and the micro organism in the soil, and the plants.

On this forum, their are only a few people who I BELIEVE have a sound concept of the organic world of feeding the soil and plants, and very few who understand agronomy and the concept of growing turfgrass!

I have read two books on building a health soil thru organics, but at my age, I'm not going to be an expert in organics, BUT BELIEVE you must use the BEST of both worlds[B] organic, and synethetic fertilers! [B]Now I said the best of both worlds, as their are bad organics, just as well as bad synethtic fertilizers!

timturf
02-25-2006, 11:34 PM
Tim,

I've seen 2 replies where all you said cgm was too much N for cool season turf...One sentence....

You do little to actually give an answer...You nitpick on wording to make a case against what was read without really proving anything for yourself...Fact is like most people on here, your stance is based on your opinion...
CGM is not available until microbial digestion occurs, while a synthetic pre-em with fert needs no microbial activity for that to happen...Does a poly coating mean it breaks down slower via waterering, etc. or does it actually need microbial activity? When you use high salt synthetics year after year, how much microbial activity is left? Give me an example of some synthetic products please...

I've seen 2 replies where all you said cgm was too much N for cool season turf...One sentence Most university recommendations for cool season turfgrass is to apply 2/3 of nitrogen in the fall. Va. Tech, recommend on cool season turfgrass, only 0 to 33% of the nitrogen to be applied in the spring, depending on the level of maitainence of turfgrass

You do little to actually give an answer I believe I do give a answer. In this case, concerning cgm, I made a statement that is true! I know this from my education, experience, and from attending numerous educational seminars!

Fact is like most people on here, your stance is based on your opinion... Yes, I'll agree, seldom do you see post that isn't the opinon or an interpretation of something somebody has learn. How often do you see somebody reference their post from an educational source, somebody with accepted knowledge in that field? You can't read these threads, and post without some background education, and common sense to interept for your self , does this person know what he is talking about? If you look at my signiture, I didn't put it up their to impress people, It's their so people who read my post, know my experience and education.

timturf
02-25-2006, 11:43 PM
Tim,

I've seen 2 replies where all you said cgm was too much N for cool season turf...One sentence....

You do little to actually give an answer...You nitpick on wording to make a case against what was read without really proving anything for yourself...Fact is like most people on here, your stance is based on your opinion...
CGM is not available until microbial digestion occurs, while a synthetic pre-em with fert needs no microbial activity for that to happen...Does a poly coating mean it breaks down slower via waterering, etc. or does it actually need microbial activity? When you use high salt synthetics year after year, how much microbial activity is left? Give me an example of some synthetic products please...

Getting frustrated, I've type two replies to this thread, and they get lost, something about not being log in, so I will continue

CGM is not available until microbial digestion occurs, while a synthetic pre-em with fert needs no microbial activity for that to happen I agree with the cgm, but are you stating that all synthetic pre emerge don't need microbial activity to break down, and is that the same for synthetic fertilizer? Is this your opinion? If not, what is your source?

timturf
02-25-2006, 11:57 PM
Tim,

I've seen 2 replies where all you said cgm was too much N for cool season turf...One sentence....

You do little to actually give an answer...You nitpick on wording to make a case against what was read without really proving anything for yourself...Fact is like most people on here, your stance is based on your opinion...
CGM is not available until microbial digestion occurs, while a synthetic pre-em with fert needs no microbial activity for that to happen...Does a poly coating mean it breaks down slower via waterering, etc. or does it actually need microbial activity? When you use high salt synthetics year after year, how much microbial activity is left? Give me an example of some synthetic products please...

Does a poly coating mean it breaks down slower via waterering, etc. or does it actually need microbial activity?
Are you talking about polyon, what i believe is a plastic coated urea from pursells, or a polymer coating and a sulfur coating of urea, one made by lesco, or some other poly coating. Breakdown of plastic coated urea is depend on coating thickness and temperature ( does temperature mean microbial activity, I don't know. This product came out a couple years before I left the gc industry, and never used it), while the polymer and sulfur coated urea breakdown is dependent on mechanical breakdown initiated by moisture, plus mechanial breakdown thru handling. I never used this product either! In fact, I seldom use scu, or any coated product!

timturf
02-26-2006, 12:10 AM
Tim,

I've seen 2 replies where all you said cgm was too much N for cool season turf...One sentence....

You do little to actually give an answer...You nitpick on wording to make a case against what was read without really proving anything for yourself...Fact is like most people on here, your stance is based on your opinion...
CGM is not available until microbial digestion occurs, while a synthetic pre-em with fert needs no microbial activity for that to happen...Does a poly coating mean it breaks down slower via waterering, etc. or does it actually need microbial activity? When you use high salt synthetics year after year, how much microbial activity is left? Give me an example of some synthetic products please...

When you use high salt synthetics year after year, how much microbial activity is left? I don't know! I've never seen any scientific research done on the levels of soluble salts in the soil which will destroy the soil micro organism. Have you seen any research on this? Or is this your opinion stated without any proof? I have seen enough statements in books from trusted authors to believe that high salt in the soil will destroy some or all the micro organism!

Now, just because a fertilizer is a synthetic, that doesn't mean it has a high salt index! Again, show me some proof that that is true!

Give me an example of some synthetic products please..
How about urea, mu, ammonium nitrate and sulfate, ibdu, scu, calcium and sodium nitrate, polyon,nutralene, uf, any coated urea, sop, mop... is that enough. Now some of those are an synthetic organic while others are a a synthetic inorganic? Do you know the difference?

timturf
02-26-2006, 12:40 AM
Tim,

I've seen 2 replies where all you said cgm was too much N for cool season turf...One sentence....

You do little to actually give an answer...You nitpick on wording to make a case against what was read without really proving anything for yourself...Fact is like most people on here, your stance is based on your opinion...
CGM is not available until microbial digestion occurs, while a synthetic pre-em with fert needs no microbial activity for that to happen...Does a poly coating mean it breaks down slower via waterering, etc. or does it actually need microbial activity? When you use high salt synthetics year after year, how much microbial activity is left? Give me an example of some synthetic products please...

When you use high salt synthetics

some salt indexs... salt index/ton
mop...116, mu...24, calcium nitrate...53, nutrulene...24, uf...10, amm sulfate...69, potassium nitrate...74, milorganite... .007, sop... 46.

Now I've seen sop any many OMRI certified fertilizer!

timturf
02-26-2006, 12:55 AM
When you use high salt synthetics

some salt indexs... salt index/ton
mop...116, mu...24, calcium nitrate...53, nutrulene...24, uf...10, amm sulfate...69, potassium nitrate...74, milorganite... .007, sop... 46.

Now I've seen sop any many OMRI certified fertilizer!

Hope this makes sense, and my logic is correct, cause it's getting late

A comparesion of milorganite and uf to the amount of salt being add.

Look at the salt index of milorganite, .007 and uf, 10. A big spread, but let's look how this spread is reduced when you consider the 6.3 times the amount of milorganite needed to apply 1lbs of n/m on one acre.

hope this is right,... 1 ton of uf, 38-0-0, will apply 1 lbs of n/m to 17.46 acres, with a salt index of .57/acre, while you will need 6.3 tons of milorganite to apply 1 lbs of n/m to 17.46 acres, and would have a salt index of .0025 per acre.

Now their is still a large difference, but much smaller than the salt index per ton of 10 to .007.

Does this make any sense?

timturf
02-26-2006, 01:10 AM
Going totally organic is possible, as long as you understand the limitations.
For years crops have been taken from the soil, along with all the nutrients contained in those crops. The result has been in crops whose nutritional value has become lower and lower. Fertilizer has been continually added to the soil to raise Nutrient levels in the soil and therefore the nutrient content in the crops. Fertilizer is organic too, it comes from the earth. The problem with the fertilization approach has been the addition of certain minerals to promote certain aspects of the crop. Mostly concentrating on NPK levels in the soil. Because farmers have concentrated on NPK and not on the other 14 necessary nutrients, mineral levels in the soil have become unbalanced. This has resulted in soils with less organic materials, since crops are removed and their nutrients not replaced to the soil. This has also led to less soil porosity which reduces the air and water holding capacities of the soil. The reduction of nutrient levels has led to reduced nutrients in the crop produced. Most here tend to think that simply adding organic material to the soil that they are improving the soil. Actually the organic material can be very short of the proper nutrients that the soil needs to bring the soil back into balance. The organic material is only as good as the source. Certain minerals are needed to help microbial populations survive and increase. As long as those minerals are present in your organic materials you can improve the soil. if not, you will still improve the soil but the amount of time it takes can be a lot longer. Some here promote bridge products which are a combination of organic and chemical fertilizer's. They are still concentrating on NPK and not taking into account the other nutrients the soil needs. When selecting your organic fertilizers, look for micro nutrient content as well as NPK. Calcium, Sulfur, Boron, etc, are all necessary for good plant growth. Organic materials can contain those nutrients but if the organic material came from soils low in these nutrients, your organic material will be low in these nutrients as well. If this is the case, supplemental applications of these products will be necessary also.


Some here promote bridge products which are a combination of organic and chemical fertilizer's. They are still concentrating on NPK and not taking into account the other nutrients the soil needs. When selecting your organic fertilizers, look for micro nutrient content as well as NPK. Calcium, Sulfur, Boron, etc, are all necessary for good plant growth.

Their are numerous bridge or fortified organic fertilizer that contain many other necessary nutrients than npk!

I have no idea, but what nutrients are in cgm, soybean meal, besides n, assuming the n comes from protien.

when i select fertilizers, I'm looking for more than just npk, I want to know which of the 17 necessary nutrients are in the fertilizer, what secondary and micronutrients are in the fertilizer

timturf
02-26-2006, 01:17 AM
I'm curious, what is your experience and education in agronomy and turfgrass culture?

If I'm going to held to a standard that my opinion based on my education and experience isn't enough, I'm going to hold you to the same standards

And concering the info posted by our moderator of this forum, I believe he his restating what he has read, I CONSIDER them an oppinion, since he doesn't have a formal education in this field, but would love to see some of the scientific material from knowledge, and educated people, like ph d people in this field.

I hope I have satisfactory answer your and grn mt questions, cause I have spent way too much time on you guys

tim

muddstopper
02-26-2006, 04:45 AM
Some here promote bridge products which are a combination of organic and chemical fertilizer's. They are still concentrating on NPK and not taking into account the other nutrients the soil needs. When selecting your organic fertilizers, look for micro nutrient content as well as NPK. Calcium, Sulfur, Boron, etc, are all necessary for good plant growth.

Their are numerous bridge or fortified organic fertilizer that contain many other necessary nutrients than npk!

I have no idea, but what nutrients are in cgm, soybean meal, besides n, assuming the n comes from protien.

when i select fertilizers, I'm looking for more than just npk, I want to know which of the 17 necessary nutrients are in the fertilizer, what secondary and micronutrients are in the fertilizer


Tim, You are one of the few here, that has the education to understand that there is more to feeding the plant or soil than just adding KNP. If you notice, the largest number of questions asked in the fertilizer section and the organic section is "How much NPK does this product have or how much NPK should I add to my soil." What most people dont seem to realize is that their are a lot more nutrients in the soil than just NPK. Calcium lets air into the soil and is necessary for the micro-organisms to function and nitrogen uptake in plants, mangnesium attracts and retains moisture and raises the soil PH, it also reduces airspace in the soil which makes it harder for micro-organisms to function. Sulfur is found in plants in the same ratios as Phosphorous. Humis is a storehouse for Sulfur. You can make humis with organics, but if the sulfur content of the organics is low, the sulfur content in the humis will be low likewise. Boron is necessary for fruit production and potassium uptake. What good does it so to apply NPK if you dont add Ca, S and B. If Ca, S, B is low, it takes more NPK to do what just a little bit would do otherwise. The soil has to have a balance of nutrients to function. When adding organic materials to boost the soil fertility, the organic material also needs to have a balance of nutrients. Simply adding a high nitrogen source organic product such as CGM doesnot address the calcium issue. Simply adding organics only works if you are adding a broad range of materials that contains the nutrients the soil lacks. Bridge fertilizers can fill that void, as long as they are not looked at as sources of NPK only , but instead the micronutrients are addressed as well.


I dont have a BS degree in anything except maybe Bull Sh!t. I am to old to start trying to get one. I do buy study materials from people that do have BS, MS, and PHD's and from people that have years of experience. Thats the only way I can learn about some of this stuff. Tim, I remember e-mailing you in the past and asking you questions to.

Some here that want to learn more about the organic or chemical approach should go to Acres.com and start buying some of the audio tapes that are available their. They will find many valuable lessons for about $8 a pop, from Experts in their fields. They can start with Malcom Beck for Organics and compost, Micheal Karr for Humis and Humates, Susan Ingram for Soil Food web, and Neal Kinssey for nutrient needs of plants. (I think all those people either have PHD or at least BS degrees) Then do a search for the Albrecth Papers, Volume I thru IV. These are currently out of print so they will be hard to find, but they are due to be reprinted this year. I also suggest researching Dr. Don Marx Phd, and learning a little about some the micro organisms in the soil. He holds a 2 day workshop about 4 times a year in Beaufort SC. They just had one last week and will have another one in April, 27th and 28th I believe. Hands on experience, limited to 18 people at a time, not some large lecture hall filled with hundreds of people.

You can also do internet searches and look for specific topics. I tend to skip over the commercial venders since their research is a little bias toward their particular product.

You dont need a BS degree or a Phd to use organics, but you do need to learn enough to distinguse between the snakeoil and the truth. Fastest, easiest way to do this is to listen to those that have the experience and education to put it all together. Or you can spend years like the experts did. Timturf might not be the ripest apple on the tree, but he aint the bloom either. He gives good advise, some of you would do well to listen.

muddstopper
02-26-2006, 05:12 AM
Soil should have a balance of nutrients, the continued application of organic materials that are high nitrogen is no better than using chemical nitrogen

And would applying 20 to 40 lb of cgm/m be considered high nitrogen? I believe so, since it's my understanding that cgm is ~ 10% nitrogen

I believe so also. Reason one. Nitrogen is nitrogen altho it can take several different forms. More nitrogen than the microorganisms and the plant can use will convert to ammonium gas, and nitric acid. When it converts to gas, it is given off to the atmosphere, when it converts to nitric acid it leaches off into the ground water. This contaminates our water supply. This is the same leaching effect that you get with over applications of chemical nitrogen. Another drawback of the leaching nitrogen is that the nitric acid also attaches to the calcium in the soil and causes it to leach also. The results in low soil calcium level as well as an increase in the amount of nitrogen that needs to be applied just so the plants can get what they need.

One thank to condier, if the CGM is taking a long time to be digested by the soil Microbes, it probalby because your calcium levles are already low, If the calcium levls are low, the microorganisms will be also.

Over application of CGM, which is a processed organic so should probably be considered a Bridge product, results in excess material to be consumed by the microorganisms, this will stimulate nitrogen loveing bacteria and fungi, which will consume the CGM and make the nitrogen availabe to go somewhere. Ammonia gas, CO2, Nitric acid. Most nitrogen loving microbes are pathogens, can you say turf diseases. so what is the difference in adding organic or chemical nitrogen? The results are the same if to much is used.

muddstopper
02-26-2006, 05:18 AM
One of these post mentioned that if the CGM is applied to heavy that it would start to stink. If you are applying CGM on a contiual basis and it is taking a long time to be digested by the micro organismes, its probably because you have altready leached you calcium levels to low.

timturf
02-26-2006, 09:35 AM
Tim, You are one of the few here, that has the education to understand that there is more to feeding the plant or soil than just adding KNP. If you notice, the largest number of questions asked in the fertilizer section and the organic section is "How much NPK does this product have or how much NPK should I add to my soil." What most people dont seem to realize is that their are a lot more nutrients in the soil than just NPK. Calcium lets air into the soil and is necessary for the micro-organisms to function and nitrogen uptake in plants, mangnesium attracts and retains moisture and raises the soil PH, it also reduces airspace in the soil which makes it harder for micro-organisms to function. Sulfur is found in plants in the same ratios as Phosphorous. Humis is a storehouse for Sulfur. You can make humis with organics, but if the sulfur content of the organics is low, the sulfur content in the humis will be low likewise. Boron is necessary for fruit production and potassium uptake. What good does it so to apply NPK if you dont add Ca, S and B. If Ca, S, B is low, it takes more NPK to do what just a little bit would do otherwise. The soil has to have a balance of nutrients to function. When adding organic materials to boost the soil fertility, the organic material also needs to have a balance of nutrients. Simply adding a high nitrogen source organic product such as CGM doesnot address the calcium issue. Simply adding organics only works if you are adding a broad range of materials that contains the nutrients the soil lacks. Bridge fertilizers can fill that void, as long as they are not looked at as sources of NPK only , but instead the micronutrients are addressed as well.


I dont have a BS degree in anything except maybe Bull Sh!t. I am to old to start trying to get one. I do buy study materials from people that do have BS, MS, and PHD's and from people that have years of experience. Thats the only way I can learn about some of this stuff. Tim, I remember e-mailing you in the past and asking you questions to.

Some here that want to learn more about the organic or chemical approach should go to Acres.com and start buying some of the audio tapes that are available their. They will find many valuable lessons for about $8 a pop, from Experts in their fields. They can start with Malcom Beck for Organics and compost, Micheal Karr for Humis and Humates, Susan Ingram for Soil Food web, and Neal Kinssey for nutrient needs of plants. (I think all those people either have PHD or at least BS degrees) Then do a search for the Albrecth Papers, Volume I thru IV. These are currently out of print so they will be hard to find, but they are due to be reprinted this year. I also suggest researching Dr. Don Marx Phd, and learning a little about some the micro organisms in the soil. He holds a 2 day workshop about 4 times a year in Beaufort SC. They just had one last week and will have another one in April, 27th and 28th I believe. Hands on experience, limited to 18 people at a time, not some large lecture hall filled with hundreds of people.

You can also do internet searches and look for specific topics. I tend to skip over the commercial venders since their research is a little bias toward their particular product.

You dont need a BS degree or a Phd to use organics, but you do need to learn enough to distinguse between the snakeoil and the truth. Fastest, easiest way to do this is to listen to those that have the experience and education to put it all together. Or you can spend years like the experts did. Timturf might not be the ripest apple on the tree, but he aint the bloom either. He gives good advise, some of you would do well to listen.

The soil has to have a balance of nutrients to function. When adding organic materials to boost the soil fertility, the organic material also needs to have a balance of nutrients So, I wonder how many of you use soil test? Does your test include base saturation? What % base saturation is Ca and Mg? If you get the soil chemistry correct, you'll grow great turfgrass

but you do need to learn enough to distinguse between the snakeoil and the truth Well muddstopper, I was trying to state that about all advice, not just organics, I like the way you stated it. I sometimes wonder from some of the post, how many people can distingush the difference.

And yes, muddstopper, I do remember our e mails.

And Muddstopper, I wish you would have wait awhile before you replied, I'm waitng for nattylawn and grn mt. Looking forward to your replies

tim

Grn Mtn
02-26-2006, 09:52 AM
... More nitrogen than the microorganisms and the plant can use will convert to ammonium gas, and nitric acid. When it converts to gas,.... it leaches off into the ground water. This contaminates our water supply. This is the same leaching effect that you get with over applications of chemical nitrogen. Another drawback of the leaching nitrogen is that the nitric acid also attaches to the calcium in the soil and causes it to leach also. The results in low soil calcium level as well as an increase in the amount of nitrogen that needs to be applied just so the plants can get what they need. ...Over application of CGM, which is a processed organic so should probably be considered a Bridge product, results in excess material to be consumed by the microorganisms, this will stimulate nitrogen loveing bacteria and fungi, which will consume the CGM and make the nitrogen availabe to go somewhere. Ammonia gas, CO2, Nitric acid. Most nitrogen loving microbes are pathogens, can you say turf diseases. so what is the difference in adding organic or chemical nitrogen? The results are the same if to much is used.


Okay, this is good, it begins to answer my question on "what happens when too much is applied.."

Now, WHY would the ISU license a product with 9% N or 4.5 lbs per 2500sqft when this seems to be not a good thing?

Also, I thought this was SLOW release? The ISU says to apply in early spring and then not again till late summer.

7.65% water INsoluble N --(doesn't this mean it takes the microbes to get at it?)
1.35% water soluble N

Lastly someone mentioned CGM wasn't that good at crabgrass? The ISU study showed 58% kill year1, 85% year 2 and 91% year 3. That seems pretty good to me.

timturf
02-26-2006, 10:04 AM
Okay, this is good, it begins to answer my question on "what happens when too much is applied.."

Now, WHY would the ISU license a product with 9% N or 4.5 lbs per 2500sqft when this seems to be not a good thing?

Also, I thought this was SLOW release? The ISU says to apply in early spring and then not again till late summer.

7.65% water INsoluble N --(doesn't this mean it takes the microbes to get at it?)
1.35% water soluble N

Lastly someone mentioned CGM wasn't that good at crabgrass? The ISU study showed 58% kill year1, 85% year 2 and 91% year 3. That seems pretty good to me.


Lastly someone mentioned CGM wasn't that good at crabgrass? The ISU study showed 58% kill year1, 85% year 2 and 91% year 3. That seems pretty good to me
that was me, and if I used any product to contol crab on a clients turfgrass, and got only 568% control, I would loose that client

tim

Grn Mtn
02-26-2006, 10:15 AM
... if I used any product to contol crab on a clients turfgrass, and got only 568% control, I would loose that client...

Well lucky for me I don't fertilize yet, I was going to start with organics this year but after talking to the NYSDEC department of pesticide, I'll wait till I get my pesticide technicians license.

The customers that I would service would have the understanding (green mentality) to wait before throwing a hissy fit:laugh:

NattyLawn
02-26-2006, 12:01 PM
I hope I have satisfactory answer your and grn mt questions, cause I have spent way too much time on you guys

tim

Tim,

You have spent way too much time on answering the question we had. Thanks for the reply....I do have a degree, but not in the turf area :) , and do whatever I can to supplement my turf knowledge, as this industry, as well as most others is a constant learning process. I know you have been the in business 30 years and your opinion has to be respected but are you using your experience to justify your answer as truth? Have you used CGM? It's seems that you need the person that proves anything to you yo have a PHD or their opinion and use of the product is pointless...

I know the topic got a little side tracked on the N-P-K discussion and I think anyone discussing or using organics should view all nutrients in the broad sprectrum. I only use CGM as a pre-emergent, and is supplemented with granular as well as liquid apps to treat the broad nutrient spectrum mentioned above.

Mudd,

I would have to disagree with the statement on turf disease and CGM. The lawns that had CGM put down had almost no disease activity (red thread was bad last year) compared to the customers that had the synthetic pre-em applied. There are a lot of other factors that could have contributed, but I see no correlation between CGM and disease activity. I do not have a PHD, so please dis-regard my opinion...

NattyLawn
02-26-2006, 12:08 PM
Well lucky for me I don't fertilize yet, I was going to start with organics this year but after talking to the NYSDEC department of pesticide, I'll wait till I get my pesticide technicians license.

The customers that I would service would have the understanding (green mentality) to wait before throwing a hissy fit:laugh:

Exactly. Customers need to be well educated on CGM and it's effectiveness. Most of the customers using already know and want to use the synthetic alternative. I also think you need to talk to the customer about better cultural practices when using CGM and organics as well.

DUSTYCEDAR
02-26-2006, 12:36 PM
i heard soil test
yes i do them and get the basic npk back and the cal to mag ratio and ph
i have found a company that will give me more info on the micros in the soil
but i have no clue what to do with that info

i have also talked to others that just care what the ph is and nothing else?
and seem to do ok with nice lawns?
i know there is more to good turf then just npk but i have been haveing trouble understanding it

482roller
02-26-2006, 01:32 PM
First off yes i am a licensed landscaping company. Second how is it ilegal for you to help me with organic fert program?

timturf
02-26-2006, 03:02 PM
Exactly. Customers need to be well educated on CGM and it's effectiveness. Most of the customers using already know and want to use the synthetic alternative. I also think you need to talk to the customer about better cultural practices when using CGM and organics as well.

That is the most important thing, the turfgrass must receive the proper culture pratices, no matter what kind of fertility program ( level of, type- organic or synthetic) or even if it receives any fert at all!

muddstopper
02-26-2006, 03:45 PM
Okay, this is good, it begins to answer my question on "what happens when too much is applied.."

Now, WHY would the ISU license a product with 9% N or 4.5 lbs per 2500sqft when this seems to be not a good thing?

Also, I thought this was SLOW release? The ISU says to apply in early spring and then not again till late summer.

7.65% water INsoluble N --(doesn't this mean it takes the microbes to get at it?)
1.35% water soluble N

Lastly someone mentioned CGM wasn't that good at crabgrass? The ISU study showed 58% kill year1, 85% year 2 and 91% year 3. That seems pretty good to me.


Water insoluble does mean it will take the microb's muching on it to make it available to the plants.

There is nothing wrong with adding CGN to obtain Nitrogen. The problem occurs when the other necessary nutrients become out of balance with that nitrogen. The soil and plants can only use so much. Even the ocassion application of CGM can cause an excessive nitrogen buildup in the soil. This isnt a bad thing as long as other nutrients, besides N is being added. It would only become a problem if CGM was/is the only organic that you are applying. The humis in the soil can only store so much nitrogen, and thats assumeing that your soil has adequate humis content, the rest is given off as ammonium gas, which can kill seeds and young tender vegitation, CO2 gas, which is good for the plants, and Nitric acid which leaches into the ground water and carries other valuable nutrients away as it leaves the soil.

To start a good organic program you should first start with soil test, the same as if you where planning on using chemical fertilizers. Concentrating on base saturation of Calcium% ( should be at least 60%, in sandy soil and 70% in clay soils)) and Magnessium levels, (no more than 10% in clay soils and 15% in sandy soils). This will ensure that the microbs have sufficient air and water to function properly. Then work on Sulfur and Boron and NPK. Calcium help with N, Sulfur with P and Boron with K, in plant uptake. Sulfur and Boron leach easily from the soil and most soils are deficient in these nutrients.
Source, Neal Kinnsey

If you are working on high calcarous soils such as in the Southwest, or in high acidic clay soils in the south east, start applying humates. Humates stimulate microbial activity. If your soils contain 5% or more organic matter, you wont see as much benefit from the humates. Reason being that high organic soils already contain good levels of humins, humic adic and folvic acid. source, Micheal Karr Phd, Certified Soil Scientest. (Bet your humate salesman didnt tell you that tidbit of important information when they where saying how great their product was). All humates are not equal either, some effecting soil chemistry and others soil structure. Humates companies also use different extraction methods. Some of which are quite caustic.

The adding of additional Microbs will also help with the nutrient conversion, but this only works if sufficient nutrients are available for the microbs to munch on. Again, just using organic materials based on NPK% doesnot give the microbs a full range of nutrients to feed on and can limit the number of benefitual microbs and encourage pathogen type microbes. Source Malcom Beck.

Some bacteria and fungi cannot be simply sprayed ontop of the soil, they have to be incorporated. VAM type micorrhizal fungi is one. If you are buying this product and just spraying it on top of your lawns, you are wasteing your money. VAM will not percolate downward into the soil and is very sensitive to sunlite. Applying to the top of the soil is just killing the fungi. Dont get caught up in the spore count of this particualr fungi when buying either. Some companies actually chop up the fungi into smaller fragments to ensure high spore counts. Research has shown that size does matter in this respect. If processed to fine, which in cases where spore counts are excessively high, you will recieve little to no benefit from their application. Source Dr.Don Marx.

Grn Mtn
02-26-2006, 08:28 PM
Water insoluble does mean it will take the microb's muching on it to make it available to the plants.........

Thank you great info:waving:

muddstopper
02-27-2006, 08:48 PM
If you want a good organic source of calcium and nitrogen, Try adding cotton along with your CGM. Not the seeds but the actual cotton lint.

TurfProSTL
02-27-2006, 11:17 PM
^ Composted poultry manure (esp from egg laying hens) is high in calcium, and is pretty balanced NPK..... course, you wouldn't get the benefit of 'weed control'.

muddstopper
02-28-2006, 11:16 PM
^ Composted poultry manure (esp from egg laying hens) is high in calcium, and is pretty balanced NPK..... course, you wouldn't get the benefit of 'weed control'.


Does anybody know of a good reference source that would give nutrient breakdowns in organic materials. I am looking for something that gives percents or lbs per ton of other nutrients as well as NPK.

Heres one for Carbon/Nitrogen ratios.

Carbon to Nitrogen Ratios
Manure (Fresh) 15:1
Legumes (peas etc.) 15:1
Grass Clippings 20:1
Manure w/Weeds 23:1
Weeds (Fresh) 25:1
Hay (Dry) 40:1
Leaves (Fresh) 40:1
Leaves (Dry) 60:1
Weeds (Dry) 90:1
Straw, cornstalks 100:1
Pine Needles 110:1
Sawdust 500:1
Wood Chips 700:1

dishboy
03-01-2006, 01:48 AM
Does anybody know of a good reference source that would give nutrient breakdowns in organic materials. I am looking for something that gives percents or lbs per ton of other nutrients as well as NPK.

Heres one for Carbon/Nitrogen ratios.

Carbon to Nitrogen Ratios
Manure (Fresh) 15:1
Legumes (peas etc.) 15:1
Grass Clippings 20:1
Manure w/Weeds 23:1
Weeds (Fresh) 25:1
Hay (Dry) 40:1
Leaves (Fresh) 40:1
Leaves (Dry) 60:1
Weeds (Dry) 90:1
Straw, cornstalks 100:1
Pine Needles 110:1
Sawdust 500:1
Wood Chips 700:1


Primal seeds has a good NPK list. I once did a google search on nutritional values of feed grains and found a site that had lots of info on trace, emyzines etc, should of bookmarked it but did'nt.

muddstopper
03-01-2006, 06:58 PM
I have the primal seeds npk list saved as a word file. I am more interested in finding Ca, S, B, Fe, and Cu content of different materials.

By the way, I was searching Primal seeds site yesterday and couldnt find the NPK list anymore.

timturf
03-05-2006, 01:43 AM
I'm still waiting for Tim to reply to the corn gluten thread where he asserts that CGM is too much N for the turf in Spring...


Found this tonite, while looking for something else

research at Virginia Tech, reported 01/29/02

Commercially available corn gluten meal products control crabgrass preemergence. However, duration of control is not as long as with commercial herbicides. Prolonged weed control will likely require multiple corn gluten meal applications. However, multiple corn gluten applications in cool-season lawns will surpass recommended nitrogen rates for cool-season turf. Although cheaper, feed-grade corn gluten does not adequately control crabgrass.

http://www.turfweeds.net/pub.php?do=view&id=18



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