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View Full Version : CT GVWR Laws and when do you need a CDL


CutRight
02-19-2006, 10:32 PM
I'm in the process of buying a bigger truck to match up with my excavator for legal towing. (legal always helps) With all the trouble at Avon mountain with the trucks crashing, I feel its really important for me to be completely legal in all my towing and truck capacities. I dont need a huge fine. So...

I'm looking at a Chevy 4500 or a 5500, either of which you do not need a CDL to drive, but...I will be towing around 17,000 - 19,000 lbs, between excavator and trailer weight. From what i've heard, if you're towing over 10,000lbs you need to have a CDL class A liscence. (I've been towing over 10,000 lbs ever since i got my dump trailer.) Wondering if theres anybody on here that has a CDL in CT or happens to knows the laws in CT

echovalley
02-19-2006, 11:13 PM
It is a must to have a CLASS A when towing ANYTHING over 10k.You should have attended the landscape show in Hartford as the DOT TRUCK SQUAD was there and could have answered any of your ?.Also I think a 4500 with the duramax is really going to struggle pulling a hill like RT6 with a 18klb machine

CutRight
02-19-2006, 11:46 PM
echovalley, its a 12,000 lb machine plus the weight of the trailer, 5500 lbs. still think itll struggle? i know thats one hell of a hill and a road i travel a lot. im still in the process of picking out a truck so whatever input i can get will help. Kodiak 4500 supposedly is rated for 19,600 lbs towing with a 26,000 GVW i believe.

echovalley
02-20-2006, 12:04 AM
Sorry I didn't know you were including the trailer in the #.Yeah the dump will pull around a 12# machine ok

CutRight
02-20-2006, 01:03 AM
i was wrong about the 4500 gvwr....its up to 19,500 lbs.

the 5500 is up to 26,000 lbs. gvwr, pretty big difference

UNISCAPER
02-20-2006, 02:39 AM
Cutright:

We have both trucks and 6500 series. Any of them will pull what you want at highway speeds and we have grades running 3-4 miles at 6-8%.

CutRight
02-20-2006, 06:33 PM
echovalley, if you do have your CDL Class A licence, i'd like to ask what vehicle you provided for your test, how hard do you think it was, and do you think that I would be able to take the test with Chevy 4500 and a 9 or 10 ton trailer. by definition i should be able to.

i heard theres a 90 point pre-trip check.
back trailer in between cones
parallel park truck and trailer.

wondering if anyone has experience with this in CT.

I'm not too intimidated by the backing up of the trailer, I think im the best person with a trailer I know. Longest trailer i've had to drive is a 34 foot gooseneck. backed it up no problem. just hoping that you dont have to drive a tractor trailer truck and a 40 foot trailer to get the licence....just so i can tow my equipment around.


As I'm looking through the state websites and talk to people, I believe I have it figured out.

Commercial Driver's License

A = Any combination of vehicles with a gross combined weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 or more pounds providing the gross vehicle rating (GVWR) of the vehicle(s) being towed in excess of 10,000 pounds.
- holders of class A licenses may, with the appropriate endorsements and restrictions, operate all vehicles within classes B and C.
(took that from the CT website)

to take the CDL test i need to supply my own vehicle appropriate to the class rating i wish to take, so what im wondering is will they allow me to take the test with a Chevy 5500 with a 10 ton trailer. I'm assuming yes from that above definition.
Chevy 5500 GVWR = 26,000 lbs
Trailer GVWR = 20,000 lbs
Gross Combined Weight Rating = 46,000lbs

so i may only need a 4500 since:
4500 GVWR =17,500lbs
Trailer GVWR =20,000 lbs
GCWR =37,500 lbs.


so a 4500 with a 10 ton trailer would work as well.

for a matter of thought lets look at a 3500 and see how illegal everyone is in the state who does not have a CDL (including myself) and tows a lot of weight

Chevy 3500 GVWR = 11,400
Trailer GVWR = 10,000
GCWR = 21,400

3500 comes out legal without a CDL A as long as you dont tow an ounce over 10,000 lbs which isnt very much.

ok thats enough for one post

echovalley
02-20-2006, 06:57 PM
Yes I do have my Class A[best thing I did].I took the class in NH it was taught by a ex State Trooper,I don't believe he is still teaching.Your best bet is to hook-up with a tractor trailer school,let them know you have experience driving with trailers etc.They will usually let you take a shorter class and save you a few bucks.

echovalley
02-20-2006, 07:02 PM
Just FYI its much harder to take the test using a dump and pintle hitch trailer[you have to line it up perfect to the pintle in one shot,you can't get out and check to see if its right on or not] instead of a tractor with a straight trailer.

CutRight
02-20-2006, 08:38 PM
i know this sounds ridiculous. (and to be honest it sounds ridiculous that they make you line up the hook and pintle in one shot...but i get the point) but do you think theyd allow a back up camera, seeing that some new dumps come stock with a back up camera? and I know you're probably not the one to be asking these questions. but this is all i have access to right now at 730 at night as i think of these things.

CutRight
02-20-2006, 08:41 PM
or take my truck to take the test while its just a cab and chassis.

2004F550
02-21-2006, 07:15 PM
What it comes down to is that anything over 10,000 being towed, if by a 2500 pickup, requires that class A. I got my class A in august with a Mack single axle/ auto and a 20 ton Eager Beaver w/ air brakes. See if you can find a truck with air brakes so that you can get them on your license, if you don't you are restricted to juice brakes.

CutRight
02-21-2006, 08:15 PM
yea i'm lookin all over for my options, just sucks cause i need to get this licence as soon as possible. or its going to cost me money to have my equipment moved. We have a family friend who is a state trainer for a local bus company that also owns a local big time construction company. she is training a few employees of that construction company. but im not sure if its class A or Class B yet. its probably class B cause theyre not really towing anything. I'm praying its Class A, then it'll make things a little cheaper, and easier over all.


2004F550. how was your experience with the test? any pointers? was it a pintle hitch trailer? true about lining up the hitch in one shot?

im not worried about backing up or anything. just want to get this done with as soon as possible. time is money.

2004F550
02-22-2006, 12:07 AM
Actually the test wasn't to bad at all. We lucked out tho and the three of us got to take the test at our yard and around our town because the company paid the guys time to come out. We set up the course and just practiced, practice...it was a pintle, we always got it first shot...you only need to pull ahead about 8', then just back up, so its hard to get out of line.....the truck was an auto, which helped b/c there wasn't any stress about shifting while doing the course etc, we could just concentrate on missing flags, etc.....but as long as you set up the course and get used to it, the test is a snap....the inspector didn't even really pay attention and if you were close it was good nuff for him....thats another thing it depends a lot on the inspector you get...we got a sergent and he was really laid back and easy going which made it less stressful....but ne way get the course laid out and just practice, if your having him come to you, pick visual markers around you and pick an easy route to drive.....it was defiantly worth the $$ to have him come to us.....if you have ne more ?? just ask

befnme
02-24-2006, 01:42 AM
It is a must to have a CLASS A when towing ANYTHING over 10k.You should have attended the landscape show in Hartford as the DOT TRUCK SQUAD was there and could have answered any of your ?.Also I think a 4500 with the duramax is really going to struggle pulling a hill like RT6 with a 18klb machine

nope not true at all..i had class a for years now . you only need class a to drive combination air brake equipped vehicles( ie. tractor trailer). and you only need a class b to drive any single unit equipped with airbrakes.(ie . dumptruck )

CutRight
02-24-2006, 09:26 AM
yea but you're in north carolina, and we're in CT, the laws here are probably different. the definition of a class a vehicle for which you would need a class a licence is:
A = Any combination of vehicles with a gross combined weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 or more pounds providing the gross vehicle rating (GVWR) of the vehicle(s) being towed in excess of 10,000 pounds.
- holders of class A licenses may, with the appropriate endorsements and restrictions, operate all vehicles within classes B and C.
(took that from the CT website)


In CT it is defined by weight, not by the brakes, although you can get an extra endorsement on your CDL A licence so that you can tow something with air brakes.

i was hoping you were right when you posted, but then i checked to see where you are from. different laws up here.

howd duke do the other night.

befnme
02-24-2006, 03:49 PM
yea but you're in north carolina, and we're in CT, the laws here are probably different. the definition of a class a vehicle for which you would need a class a licence is:
A = Any combination of vehicles with a gross combined weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 or more pounds providing the gross vehicle rating (GVWR) of the vehicle(s) being towed in excess of 10,000 pounds.
- holders of class A licenses may, with the appropriate endorsements and restrictions, operate all vehicles within classes B and C.
(took that from the CT website)


In CT it is defined by weight, not by the brakes, although you can get an extra endorsement on your CDL A licence so that you can tow something with air brakes.

i was hoping you were right when you posted, but then i checked to see where you are from. different laws up here.

howd duke do the other night.

i dont want to seem like a know it all but when the "cdl" was established it abolished all state laws and now is governed by the feds. it is a nationwide license if not then lets say i was ok to drive a dumptruck with class "c" in nc. but i had to travel to va just one state away and then got stopped and fined because in va you have to have a "b" license to drive a dumptruck. you see in that respect no one could travel state to state unless you had each states license .that is why the cdl is in effect to put all states on the same page.

echovalley
02-24-2006, 08:07 PM
nope not true at all..i had class a for years now . you only need class a to drive combination air brake equipped vehicles( ie. tractor trailer). and you only need a class b to drive any single unit equipped with airbrakes.(ie . dumptruck )
Ah nope your wrong you need a air brake endorsment to drive a dump or box truck with air brakes under 26k GVW.You need a class B for any straight truck over 26k GVW with or without air brakes and you can tow anything UNDER 10k lbs.You would need a class A for anything with a combined weight of 26,001 lbs[ie kodiak dump#10,500,trailer #4 and excavator #12=#26,500 Class A only

befnme
02-24-2006, 08:28 PM
Ah nope your wrong you need a air brake endorsment to drive a dump or box truck with air brakes under 26k GVW.You need a class B for any straight truck over 26k GVW with or without air brakes and you can tow anything UNDER 10k lbs.You would need a class A for anything with a combined weight of 26,001 lbs[ie kodiak dump#10,500,trailer #4 and excavator #12=#26,500 Class A only

here we go :

CDL Licensing Information

There are three classes of CDL licenses, Class "A", Class "B", Class "C" in all States
and Class "D" in some of the States. These licenses are divided by the "GVWR" of the
vehicle or vehicles driven. GVWR stands for "gross vehicle weight rating" and is the
weight that the vehicle is allowed to weigh fully loaded. In all cases you must have
passed a DOT (Department Of Transportation) physical in order to qualify for a CDL
License. If your not sure if you qualify for a CDL License please contact your State
Department of Transportation before proceeding any farther with your quest for the
license. A lot of people have spent lots of money going through truck driving schools
and then find out they can't physically qualify for the CDL License. Please don't let
this happen to you.

Class "A". This is for commercial vehicles that are over 26,000 lbs and tow a trailer
that is over 10,000 lbs they are called a combination vehicle. Tractor trailers all,
tractors pulling mobile homes, dump trucks pulling dolly trailers, or dump trailers,
straight trucks pulling trailers fall into this class.
Requires written tests and skills tests.

Class "B". This is for commercial vehicles that are over 26,000 lbs GVWR . These are
vehicles that have no trailers or trailer that weigh less than 10,000 lbs fully loaded.
Straight box or flat bed trucks, dump trucks, tank trucks, Buses, fall into this class.
Requires written tests and skills tests.

Class "C". This is for commercial vehicles that weight less than 26,000 lb and require
an endorsement. small bus or any vehicle with hazardous material placards.
Requires written tests and skills test.

Class "D". This is for commercial vehicles that weigh over 6,000 lbs but less than
26,000 lbs. This license in most cases only requires a written test.

Endorsements

"H" endorsement is required on your license if you drive a commercial vehicle that
requires a hazardous materials placard.

"N" endorsement is required on your license if you drive a commercial vehicle with a
tank that can hold a 1,000 gallons or more.

"P" endorsement is required on your license if you drive a commercial vehicle that
can transport 16 or more people including the driver, or a school bus that can
transport 11 people including the driver.

"T" endorsement is requires on your license if you drive a commercial combination
vehicle with double or triple trailers.

"X" endorsement is requires on your license if you drive a commercial tank vehicle
used to haul hazardous materials.

i was wrong about the air brake endorsement but the point is you do not need the class "a" cdl to pull a trailer with 10,000 gvwr. heck i took the test in 1991 or 1992 i think .

CutRight
02-24-2006, 09:04 PM
this is the exact problem I'm am running into everywhere I go, is that everybody has a different answer. I've talked to folks like you who have their CDL licenses, owners of trailer dealerships, owners of truck dealerships, other landscapers, guys in excavation. The funny thing is the other landscapers, truckers, and excavation guys at least have an answer for the question. But surprisingly the druck dealership owners and the trailer dealership owners that I have talked to cannot give a straight answer. I'm going to go straight to the source and go down to the DMV as soon as a get a chance. Might as well see what the horses ass, sorry i mean horses mouth has to say.

CutRight
02-24-2006, 09:10 PM
but you must at least acknowledge my point in the wording of the definition of a CDL Class A licence that is found on the Connecticut State websites

A = Any combination of vehicles with a gross combined weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 or more pounds providing the gross vehicle rating (GVWR) of the vehicle(s) being towed in excess of 10,000 pounds.
- holders of class A licenses may, with the appropriate endorsements and restrictions, operate all vehicles within classes B and C.
(took that from the CT website)


those are the exact words, copy and pasted.

Any combination of vehicles with a gross combined weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 or more pounds ....... meaning, any combination of any vehicles, ie. truck and trailer, with a gross combined weight rating (GVWR of the truck + GVWR of the trailer) that equals to or above 26,001 pounds.......

providing the gross vehicle rating (GVWR) of the vehicle(s) being towed in excess of 10,000 pounds.

that the trailer is rated for over 10,000


my equipment to be moved

GMC 5500 GVWR 25,900 pounds
trailer GVWR 18,000 pounds

GVWR 43,900 pounds


get my point. thats why this argument is so confusing. by the definition on the CT website i shoul dneed a CDL Class A licence to tow that truck...but ill let you guys know what i find out from the DMV

thepawnshop
03-26-2006, 01:03 AM
but you must at least acknowledge my point in the wording of the definition of a CDL Class A licence that is found on the Connecticut State websites

A = Any combination of vehicles with a gross combined weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 or more pounds providing the gross vehicle rating (GVWR) of the vehicle(s) being towed in excess of 10,000 pounds.
- holders of class A licenses may, with the appropriate endorsements and restrictions, operate all vehicles within classes B and C.
(took that from the CT website)


those are the exact words, copy and pasted.

Any combination of vehicles with a gross combined weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 or more pounds ....... meaning, any combination of any vehicles, ie. truck and trailer, with a gross combined weight rating (GVWR of the truck + GVWR of the trailer) that equals to or above 26,001 pounds.......

providing the gross vehicle rating (GVWR) of the vehicle(s) being towed in excess of 10,000 pounds.

that the trailer is rated for over 10,000


my equipment to be moved

GMC 5500 GVWR 25,900 pounds
trailer GVWR 18,000 pounds

GVWR 43,900 pounds


get my point. thats why this argument is so confusing. by the definition on the CT website i shoul dneed a CDL Class A licence to tow that truck...but ill let you guys know what i find out from the DMV

I am facing the same dilema, Cutright...so what DID you find out at the DMV? I am in Va and our CDL laws mirror yours...to the word so I am quite curios how things went. Thanks!

CutRight
03-27-2006, 12:21 AM
there is another thread where i wrote everything i found out from the DMV what the rules are. search for the thread Cutright vs the CT DMV something like that

but the basic thing is.

if the truck GVWR is 26,001 or more - CDL Class B
if towing 10,000lbs or more (no matter the truck) - you need a CDL Class A

when towing the weights on your axles cannot exceed the axle ratings or tire ratings (whichever is lower) for each individual axle.
and also the weight of everything cannot exceed the GCWR of the rig your running (truck GVWR 30,000#s + trailer GVWR 20,000# = 50,000#GCWR), so the truck, trailer, and payload added together cannot exceed that 50,000# mark, but then.....
if your axle ratings say only add up to 45,000#s then you cannot exceed 45,000#s.

its a very complicated thing to try and to explain. the best thing is to get it straigth from the horses mouth. if you can, go to your dmv and ask to speak with a Department of Transportation Inspections Officer, because these will be the guys that will be pulling you over. you may have to call and make an appointment, but it should be possible to talk to them.
the inspection officer told me there is no actual document anywhere that tells you this stuff, so its basically up to the interpretation of whoever pulls you over.

also, at least in CT, you need US DOT numbers if your truck gvwr is 18,000#s or more.

R.L. Hale Landscaping LLC
01-20-2010, 02:27 AM
I know the CDL question has been beat to death, but recently my friend got the commercial drivers manual and i read part of it that makes it sound like it doesnt matter as long as you are under 26000. The combined weights say "if" not "or over 10000".

A commercial motor vehicle is defined as a motor
vehicle designed or used to transport passengers or
property if the vehicle:
• Has a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of
26,001 or more pounds; or
• A trailer with a GVWR of more than 10,000 pounds
if the gross combination weight rating (GCWR) is
26,001 pounds or more; or
• Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers,
including the driver; or is designed to transport
more than 10 passengers, including the driver, and
used to transport students under the age of 21
years to and from school;

http://www.ct.gov/dmv/lib/dmv/20/29/comdr.pdf

lawn king
01-20-2010, 10:50 AM
You are wise to be completely compliant, CT. DOT is brutal, by far the toughest in the northeast! They will tow you for bad breath! I myself have been towed off the highway by the MA. DOT, it doe's not make for a profitable day!

wellbuilt
01-21-2010, 12:20 AM
this is the exact problem I'm am running into everywhere I go, is that everybody has a different answer. I've talked to folks like you who have their CDL licenses, owners of trailer dealerships, owners of truck dealerships, other landscapers, guys in excavation. The funny thing is the other landscapers, truckers, and excavation guys at least have an answer for the question. But surprisingly the druck dealership owners and the trailer dealership owners that I have talked to cannot give a straight answer. I'm going to go straight to the source and go down to the DMV as soon as a get a chance. Might as well see what the horses ass, sorry i mean horses mouth has to say.

Here's my deal . I was in the same boat .
I have a f450 16000lbs gvw with a 12000lb trailer 28000 lbs GCWR I need a CDL so i just went to get one .
I went on line and bought a CDL test model .
The model is a test that you can just take day and night on line until you pass with a 80% or better grade 3 time in a row . Then go take your written test , you should pass. You can take (any) truck and trailer for your road test as long as its over 26000 lbs GCWR. Last year i studied christmas eve and part of Christmas's day and passed the written test . It took me 3 days to get a road test and i passed . Now i can drive any truck up to 26000lbs with a trailer appropriate for the truck. My truck doesn't have air breaks so i don't have the endorsement . I had my licence in a week and a half . A friend of mine was going to let me drive his truck and trailer but as i was doing the safety check parts where falling off.
If you can dig up a truck with a GVW of 33000lbs with air breaks you can get a full cdl licence . John

GravelyNut
01-21-2010, 03:50 AM
The written tests aren't that hard ( atleast to me ), it's the driving part you need to practice for.

Air brake written test part is short. If you don't take it, in Florida, you get a restriction on your license saying no air brakes. If taken, nothing shows on the license. Take it and save yourself the headache later.

Having had a Chauffeurs License before the Fed CDL came in, didn't have to take the driving part as long as you had driven a vehicle in the class of the CDL you were going to keep.

The Hazmat endorsement is the one that became the biggest pain in the butt.
It is the only one that requires a retest every 6 years with a written 30 question test.
Plus the background check that has to be done every four years now.

Test scores when it first came out were:
CDL = 92%, Air Brake =96%, Hazmat=100% :D
6 years later the Hazmat was a 92% without opening the book or expecting the test. Missed the fine print as so did the inspector at first. Not many people take it locally so she also remembered me from the first time score. Dropped the Hazmat after 12 years.

Chauffeur or Class B license for over 30 years now. No longer need it but it sure makes it easier when you go to rent a truck for personal use.

Most states will transfer your license if you move with only needing to take the 50 question basic test. And paying the money.

GravelyNut
01-21-2010, 04:02 AM
I know the CDL question has been beat to death, but recently my friend got the commercial drivers manual and i read part of it that makes it sound like it doesnt matter as long as you are under 26000. The combined weights say "if" not "or over 10000".

A commercial motor vehicle is defined as a motor
vehicle designed or used to transport passengers or
property if the vehicle:
• Has a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of
26,001 or more pounds; or
• A trailer with a GVWR of more than 10,000 pounds
if the gross combination weight rating (GCWR) is
26,001 pounds or more; or
• Is designed to transport 16 or more passengers,
including the driver; or is designed to transport
more than 10 passengers, including the driver, and
used to transport students under the age of 21
years to and from school;

http://www.ct.gov/dmv/lib/dmv/20/29/comdr.pdf
By Fed law, that is the case. But your state can apply the rules a little stricter if they want. The good thing is, the other states can't apply their CDL laws to anyone except their own people if you have another state's CDL license. But some do try. That was one of the reasons for the Fed rules in the first place. To make it one license covers all states. And you'll find that if you look at the various state CDL manuals online, they all are pretty much word for word the same as they come from the Feds.

ProTouch Groundscapes
01-21-2010, 12:26 PM
i just downloaded the CDL handbook b/c my brother and I will be getting our class A with air brake endorsements because of our new trailer purchase.

our truck F350 with 11,500 gvwr
our trailer= 19,000 gvwr
Total Combined Gross Vehicle weight rating= 30,500
The CGWVR is over 26,000lbs so we need a CDL

if the trailer was 10,000 gvwr or under then we would not need a cdl

If our truck was say 19,500 gvwr
and our trailer was 8,000 gvwr
CGvwR= 27,500
even though its over the 26K cgvwr, since the trailer is under the 10K limit you wont need a cdl

GravelyNut
01-21-2010, 05:26 PM
i just downloaded the CDL handbook b/c my brother and I will be getting our class A with air brake endorsements because of our new trailer purchase.

our truck F350 with 11,500 gvwr
our trailer= 19,000 gvwr
Total Combined Gross Vehicle weight rating= 30,500
The CGWVR is over 26,000lbs so we need a CDL

if the trailer was 10,000 gvwr or under then we would not need a cdl

If our truck was say 19,500 gvwr
and our trailer was 8,000 gvwr
CGvwR= 27,500
even though its over the 26K cgvwr, since the trailer is under the 10K limit you wont need a cdlNope. It just means you can get away with a Class B CDL if the trailer is 10K or less. 10K+1 puts you in Class A territory. 26K+1 is CDL either way.

ProTouch Groundscapes
01-23-2010, 11:42 AM
yea your right, i forgot you still need B cert.

Duffster
01-23-2010, 03:27 PM
i just downloaded the CDL handbook b/c my brother and I will be getting our class A with air brake endorsements because of our new trailer purchase.

our truck F350 with 11,500 gvwr
our trailer= 19,000 gvwr
Total Combined Gross Vehicle weight rating= 30,500
The CGWVR is over 26,000lbs so we need a CDL

if the trailer was 10,000 gvwr or under then we would not need a cdl

If our truck was say 19,500 gvwr
and our trailer was 8,000 gvwr
CGvwR= 27,500
even though its over the 26K cgvwr, since the trailer is under the 10K limit you wont need a cdl

That is correct.

Nope. It just means you can get away with a Class B CDL if the trailer is 10K or less. 10K+1 puts you in Class A territory. 26K+1 is CDL either way.

That is incorrect.

yea your right, i forgot you still need B cert.

You where right the first time.

Duffster
01-23-2010, 03:28 PM
Don't anyone let DVS see this thread. :laugh:

ProTouch Groundscapes
01-25-2010, 01:38 PM
yep duffster

if you have a combination (truck+trailer) and your over 26K combined and your trailer is over 10K gvw then it calls for a class A cdl

if your truck is 26,001K, without a trailer then you need the class b

heres the easiest way to decide that ive found:

http://www.truck-driver-training-guide.com/images/do-you-need-CDL.jpg

Duffster
01-25-2010, 02:03 PM
yep duffster

if you have a combination (truck+trailer) and your over 26K combined and your trailer is over 10K gvw then it calls for a class A cdl

if your truck is 26,001K, without a trailer then you need the class b

heres the easiest way to decide that ive found:

http://www.truck-driver-training-guide.com/images/do-you-need-CDL.jpg

Yes Sir that chart is very handy but still proves to be difficult for some.

Your statement about the 19,500 truck pulling a 8k not needing a CDL was correct. If the trailer is under 10k it doesn't even factor into the GCWR, as far as CDL is concerned.

That is why I said that GravelyNut was incorrect saying 26k+1 is CDL either way. It is possible to drive a rig with a 36k GCWR and still not need a CDL if the truck is 26k or under and the trailer is 10k or under.

:)

bobcatoh
01-25-2010, 07:18 PM
Guys as much as I hate to jump into these cdl threads I feel like I can clear up the class A.

The graph clearly asks if the weight of the vehicle or combination is over 26,000lbs. If the answer is no then you do not need a cdl.

The gross weight of the truck and trailer are the only thing that matters. If they are over 26,001lbs, they can be empty and you will be cited.

The above example with the truck at 19,500 and trailer at 8,000 puts you over 26,000 lbs, thus you need a cdl.

If you are under cdl, the DOT will use the bridge formula so your trailer axles can legally carry 20,00 per axle on the rear and trailer axles and 12,000 on the steering axle.

So a 1/2 ton little Nissan truck with a two axle trailer can legally carry 62,000 lbs.

This info came from the head guy at the Ohio State Patrol that operates the States DOT.

I was as confused as the rest of you so I just picked up the phone and called them.

He also said that as long as the axle weights are fine that the only ones that care about how much weight you are carrying were the manufacturers, and the lawyers if you got into a wreck.

Here is one of my rigs. The gvcwr is 25,600Lbs.

One other thing you need to look at is the tires that are on your trailer.

More than likely to weight rating for the tires doesn't match the axle rating.

Duffster
01-25-2010, 07:55 PM
Guys as much as I hate to jump into these cdl threads I feel like I can clear up the class A.

The graph clearly asks if the weight of the vehicle or combination is over 26,000lbs. If the answer is no then you do not need a cdl.

The gross weight of the truck and trailer are the only thing that matters. If they are over 26,001lbs, they can be empty and you will be cited.

The above example with the truck at 19,500 and trailer at 8,000 puts you over 26,000 lbs, thus you need a cdl.

If you are under cdl, the DOT will use the bridge formula so your trailer axles can legally carry 20,00 per axle on the rear and trailer axles and 12,000 on the steering axle.

So a 1/2 ton little Nissan truck with a two axle trailer can legally carry 62,000 lbs.

This info came from the head guy at the Ohio State Patrol that operates the States DOT.

I was as confused as the rest of you so I just picked up the phone and called them.

He also said that as long as the axle weights are fine that the only ones that care about how much weight you are carrying were the manufacturers, and the lawyers if you got into a wreck.

Here is one of my rigs. The gvcwr is 25,600Lbs.

One other thing you need to look at is the tires that are on your trailer.

More than likely to weight rating for the tires doesn't match the axle rating.

The bolded part is absolutely wrong, like I have said previously. If the trailer is 0k or under it doesn't even come into play.

Please explain how you think that combo needs a CDL.

The rest of your post I will leave for now.

GravelyNut
01-25-2010, 07:59 PM
Yes Sir that chart is very handy but still proves to be difficult for some.

Your statement about the 19,500 truck pulling a 8k not needing a CDL was correct. If the trailer is under 10k it doesn't even factor into the GCWR, as far as CDL is concerned.

That is why I said that GravelyNut was incorrect saying 26k+1 is CDL either way. It is possible to drive a rig with a 36k GCWR and still not need a CDL if the truck is 26k or under and the trailer is 10k or under.

:)
I wouldn't go crossing any statelines with it or you'd find out how wrong you can be. And there are states that go by what the FMCSA say applies as to what is a CMV in state. NC is one of those states. CT is another. Florida says CMVs start at 10K+1. NY say: (Under the NYS VTL, CMV weight
classifications are based on the greater of the following weights: manufacturer's GVWR or GCWR, registration weight, or actual weight of the vehicle(s) and load.) To operate a CMV you need to have a CDL Class C minimum or an exemption on the CDL ( like Ohio's K-2 exemption for in state use only). Feds lowered the bar saying even a pickup towing a trailer is a CMV if the GCWR or AGCW is 10K+1 crossing statelines if for profit. And is therefore subject to the FMCSRs. That is in the 49CFR390.5 interpretations. For profit can be something as simple as a winning trophy (CT) or taking the CMV to the next state to get it repaired (Fed). Ohio adopted the FMCSR in whole.

Safety Rules
The PUCO has adopted the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations (FMCSR) under Ohio Administrative Code (OAC) 4901:. These safety rules will apply to commercial motor vehicles as defined in the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR)49 Part 390.5.

All motor carriers must maintain a driver qualification (DQ) file for each driver they use, which includes all items in CFR49 Part 391.51.

All motor carriers must comply with hours of service regulations and maintain record of duty status, or, as the industry knows them, log books, for a period of 6 months, as required by CFR49 Part 395.8. If you operate locally then you can use the exception found in CFR49 Part 395.1(E).

All motor carriers must maintain maintenance records as required in CFR49 Part 396.3. All drivers must complete a daily inspection of each vehicle operated listing any and all safety defects, and carriers must maintain these inspections as required by CFR49 Part 396.11 and effect repairs of safety items before the commercial motor vehicle may be dispatched again.

All motor carriers are required to have all commercial motor vehicles inspected on an annual basis, and documentation that the commercial motor vehicle passed the inspection must be carried on board as required in CFR49 Part 396.17.

Alcohol and Drug Testing is required by CFR49 Part 382 if the size and or weight of the commercial motor vehicle requires the driver to possess a commercial drivers license (CDL) as required in ORC 4506.

Note: The definition of a commercial motor vehicle in CFR49 Part 383.5 is for that part only.


From 390.5:
Commercial motor vehicle means any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle—

(1) Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 4,536 kg (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or

(2) Is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers (including the driver) for compensation; or

(3) Is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, and is not used to transport passengers for compensation; or

(4) Is used in transporting material found by the Secretary of Transportation to be hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and transported in a quantity requiring placarding under regulations prescribed by the Secretary under 49 CFR, subtitle B, chapter I, subchapter C.

From the interpretation section.Question 11: A company has a truck with a GVWR under 10,001 pounds towing a trailer with a GVWR under 10,001 pounds. However, the GVWR of the truck added to the GVWR of the trailer is greater than 10,001 pounds. Would the company operating this vehicle in interstate commerce have to comply with the FMCSRs?

Guidance: §390.5 of the FMCSRs includes in the definition of CMV a vehicle with a GVWR or GCWR of 10,001 or more pounds. The section further defines GCWR as the value specified by the manufacturer as the loaded weight of a combination (articulated) vehicle. Therefore, if the GVWR of the truck added to the GVWR of the trailer exceeds 10,001 pounds, the driver and vehicle are subject to the FMCSRs.
So if you tow like Duffster says without a CDL, watch out as the states are watching to earn money any way they can. And having the CDL is one way of them not getting any more money than it and the Med cert, triangles and fire extingusher, log book cost.

And also lookout if you have a permanent water tank on a CDL A or B required vehicle as more than 119 gallons requires the driver to have a tanker endorsement.

ProTouch Groundscapes
01-25-2010, 08:10 PM
looking up my states cdl requirements refers me to the federal regulations. So, if i abide by the federal level requirements and am safe here in ohio, If I cross into another state with higher requirements than federal, then im fair game?

bobcatoh
01-25-2010, 08:12 PM
Duffster,

Look at the (Do you need a cdl graph) above. The first item asks "Does the vehicle or combination manufactures gcwr over 26,000?" The example of 19,500 & 8,000 would be yes so you need a cdl.

The best thing to do if you are not sure is just call them, they won't bite.

360ci
01-25-2010, 08:35 PM
CT has endorsements for everything! Wow.

Ontario specs:

I hold a class ACZ license, which 'A' means I'm rated for class 8 vehicles, in ANY combination from single trailer to pups to double trailers. 'C' means motor coach or any non-school bus with no passenger maximum, 'Z' is for air brake endorsement, and the only endorsement you can get. If you get your 'A' license in Ontario, you have to get your 'Z' as well, as all class 8 vehicles here have air brakes.

The 10K trailer rule applies here as well. If the total weight being towed is more than 10K a commercial license is required.

Ontario Licensing:
A - tractor trailer
B - school bus
C - motor coach
D - dump truck, trailer less than 10K
F - bus/shuttle under 20 passengers
G - general car license (the one everyone can get through a cereal box mail in order!)
M - motorcycle
X - if you wear glasses this will be on the license as a 'condition' not as a license grade
Z - air brake endorsement

Duffster
01-25-2010, 08:38 PM
I wouldn't go crossing any statelines with it or you'd find out how wrong you can be. And there are states that go by what the FMCSA say applies as to what is a CMV in state. NC is one of those states. CT is another. Florida says CMVs start at 10K+1. NY say: To operate a CMV you need to have a CDL Class C minimum or an exemption on the CDL ( like Ohio's K-2 exemption for in state use only). Feds lowered the bar saying even a pickup towing a trailer is a CMV if the GCWR or AGCW is 10K+1 crossing statelines if for profit. And is therefore subject to the FMCSRs. That is in the 49CFR390.5 interpretations. For profit can be something as simple as a winning trophy (CT) or taking the CMV to the next state to get it repaired (Fed). Ohio adopted the FMCSR in whole.



From 390.5:

From the interpretation section. So if you tow like Duffster says without a CDL, watch out as the states are watching to earn money any way they can. And having the CDL is one way of them not getting any more money than it and the Med cert, triangles and fire extingusher, log book cost.

And also lookout if you have a permanent water tank on a CDL A or B required vehicle as more than 119 gallons requires the driver to have a tanker endorsement.

You are mixing up your definitions of CMV's, one has to do with CDL's and one has to do with the threshold that require the safety equipment and med card and such.

Duffster
01-25-2010, 08:38 PM
looking up my states cdl requirements refers me to the federal regulations. So, if i abide by the federal level requirements and am safe here in ohio, If I cross into another state with higher requirements than federal, then im fair game?

No, no other state can hold you to higher regs than the federal regs.

Duffster
01-25-2010, 08:40 PM
Duffster,

Look at the (Do you need a cdl graph) above. The first item asks "Does the vehicle or combination manufactures gcwr over 26,000?" The example of 19,500 & 8,000 would be yes so you need a cdl.

The best thing to do if you are not sure is just call them, they won't bite.

What does the next box say?

360ci
01-25-2010, 08:52 PM
Duffster,

Look at the (Do you need a cdl graph) above. The first item asks "Does the vehicle or combination manufactures gcwr over 26,000?" The example of 19,500 & 8,000 would be yes so you need a cdl.

The best thing to do if you are not sure is just call them, they won't bite.

You can't read the graph right. It's GVWR over 26K, not combined. If the trailer and payload equate to more than 10K, a license upgrade will be required. If the trailer is 8K total weight, a CDL is not required unless the GVWR is over 26K, so with it being 19.5K, a CDL is not required.

What does the next box say?

OBAMA?

Duffster
01-25-2010, 08:53 PM
You can't read the graph right. It's GVWR over 26K, not combined. If the trailer and payload equate to more than 10K, a license upgrade will be required. If the trailer is 8K total weight, a CDL is not required unless the GVWR is over 26K, so with it being 19.5K, a CDL is not required.

Come bobcatoh, even a canadain can read our rules better then you can.

OBAMA?

LOL:laugh:

Duffster
01-25-2010, 09:11 PM
Ok boys here are the Federal Regs.

I know of no state other than CA that differs from these signifigantly.

§383.91 Commercial motor vehicle groups. (a) Vehicle group descriptions. Each driver applicant must possess and be tested on his/her knowledge and skills, described in subpart G of this part, for the commercial motor vehicle group(s) for which he/she desires a CDL. The commercial motor vehicle groups are as follows:

(a)(1) Combination vehicle (Group A)—Any combination of vehicles with a gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds).

(a)(2) Heavy Straight Vehicle (Group B)—Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more), or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds) GVWR.

(a)(3) Small Vehicle (Group C)—Any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that meets neither the definition of Group A nor that of Group B as contained in this section, but that either is designed to transport 16 or more passengers including the driver, or is used in the transportation of materials found to be hazardous for the purposes of the Hazardous Materials Transportation Act and which require the motor vehicle to be placarded under the Hazardous Materials Regulations (49 CFR part 172, subpart F).

Notice that class A is for combo's over 26k that include a trailer over 10k.

I don't think anyone here is confused about that.

Class B is for straight trucks over 26k (ORstraight trucks pulling trailers under10k. Notice it doesn't say anything about combos over 26k.

Class C is for trucks under 26k that require endorsements.

So like I said the original example of the combo of the 19.5k truck/8k trailer would need NO CDL at all. ;)

360ci
01-25-2010, 10:15 PM
Come bobcatoh, even a canadain can read our rules better then you can.

LOL:laugh:

I know quite a bit, even more if I make reference. I had some state training in Michigan after I upgraded my license in Ontario!:

Happy happy joy joy

http://www.biodsl.com/images/michigantruck.jpg

GravelyNut
01-26-2010, 01:09 AM
Ok boys here are the Federal Regs.

I know of no state other than CA that differs from these signifigantly.

§383.91 Commercial motor vehicle groups. (a) Vehicle group descriptions. Each driver applicant must possess and be tested on his/her knowledge and skills, described in subpart G of this part, for the commercial motor vehicle group(s) for which he/she desires a CDL. The commercial motor vehicle groups are as follows:

(a)(1) Combination vehicle (Group A)—Any combination of vehicles with a gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more) provided the GVWR of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds).

(a)(2) Heavy Straight Vehicle (Group B)—Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more), or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds) GVWR.

(a)(3) Small Vehicle (Group C)—Any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that meets neither the definition of Group A nor that of Group B as contained in this section, but that either is designed to transport 16 or more passengers including the driver, or is used in the transportation of materials found to be hazardous for the purposes of the Hazardous Materials Transportation Act and which require the motor vehicle to be placarded under the Hazardous Materials Regulations (49 CFR part 172, subpart F).

Notice that class A is for combo's over 26k that include a trailer over 10k.

I don't think anyone here is confused about that.

Class B is for straight trucks over 26k (ORstraight trucks pulling trailers under10k. Notice it doesn't say anything about combos over 26k.

Class C is for trucks under 26k that require endorsements.

So like I said the original example of the combo of the 19.5k truck/8k trailer would need NO CDL at all. ;)
I quoted you from the official NY site but to remind you again:
1.2 - Commercial Driver License Classes, Endorsements & Restrictions
Commercial driver license classes, endorsements and restrictions are based on the type of CMV
driven. The type of CMV is determined by the vehicle manufacturer's GVWR (for single vehicles) or
GCWR (for combination vehicles), construction or use. (Under the NYS VTL, CMV weight
classifications are based on the greater of the following weights: manufacturer's GVWR or GCWR,
registration weight, or actual weight of the vehicle(s) and load.) CDL classes, endorsements and
restrictions, therefore, correspond to vehicle weight, construction or use, as shown in Figure 1.1 on
page 1-2.
Section 1 INTRODUCTION
New York State Commercial Driver’s Manual Page 1-1
Section 1 INTRODUCTION

Found at http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/broch/cdl/cdl10sec01.pdf Suggest you look at the chart below because it is copied from where the above stops. Class B allows towing and combinations as long as it doesn't exceed 26000. It meets what I said previously.

Duffster
01-26-2010, 05:40 AM
I quoted you from the official NY site but to remind you again:

You forgot this section that explains when a CDL is needed.

1.1 - Commercial Motor Vehicles (CMV)
You must have a Commercial Driver License (CDL) to operate any of the following CMVs:
Any single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 26,001 pounds or more.
A trailer with a GVWR of more than 10,000 pounds if the gross combination weight rating
(GCWR) is 26,001 pounds or more.
A vehicle designed to transport 15 or more passengers (excluding the driver) or a vehicle
defined as a bus under Article 19-A, Section 509-a of the NYS Vehicle and Traffic Law (VTL).
Any size vehicle that is used in the transportation of any material that requires hazardous
materials placards or any quantity of a material listed as a select agent or toxin in 42 CFR 73.
Federal regulations through the Department of Homeland Security require a background check
and fingerprinting for the Hazardous Materials endorsement.

Notice that combinations over 26k that include traiers under 10k are not included.

Found at http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/broch/cdl/cdl10sec01.pdf Suggest you look at the chart below because it is copied from where the above stops. Class B allows towing and combinations as long as it doesn't exceed 26000. It meets what I said previously.

Actually it doesn't.

A class D allows the same thing and meets what I said previously.

Duffster
01-26-2010, 06:10 AM
Found at http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/broch/cdl/cdl10sec01.pdf Suggest you look at the chart below because it is copied from where the above stops. Class B allows towing and combinations as long as it doesn't exceed 26000. It meets what I said previously.

EDIT

I misread what you typed here.

The chart says that you can tow over 10k as long as the combo isn't over 26k(that would be a class A).

The 19.5k/8k example doesn't meet the definition of class B(the truck is not over 26k). This example is a class D like I previously said.

Keep in mind that a license class allows you to operate any lower class vehicle.

Duffster
01-26-2010, 10:14 AM
A driver with a Class D license can operate a passenger vehicle, a limited use automobile, or:

A truck with a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of 26,000 lbs. or less.

and

A truck with a GVWR of 26,000 lbs. or less that tows another vehicle, and the other vehicle has a GVWR of 10,000 lbs. or less,

http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/ncdlc.htm

;)

GravelyNut
01-26-2010, 12:12 PM
You forgot this section that explains when a CDL is needed.



Notice that combinations over 26k that include traiers under 10k are not included.



Actually it doesn't.

A class D allows the same thing and meets what I said previously.

(Under the NYS VTL, CMV weight
classifications are based on the greater of the following weights: manufacturer's GVWR or GCWR,
registration weight, or actual weight of the vehicle(s) and load.) What don't you understand about 1.2 telling you that the weight is the higher of the weights. And if the GCWR is higher than the GVWR, that is what applies. As his example is a combination of truck and trailer, with the trailer under 10 K, he still is Class B as their ruling is based on a combo. Class A just changes it to Class A from Class B if the trailer is over 10K and exceeds 26K total weight. 19K + 8K = 27K which is over the 26K+1 threshold but not over the 10K+1 trailer that would make it a Class A.

This also matches what a FLDOT examiner told me. And also what the Ohio Highway Patrol told bobcatoh.

Duffster
01-26-2010, 02:31 PM
Gravelynut, seriously, what didn't you understand about my previous post? It doesn't get anymore point blank than that.

What don't you understand about 1.2 telling you that the weight is the higher of the weights.

I understand this perfectly. You're not reading it correctly. Trust me I am the farthest thing from an English major, so if I can read it you should be able too.

And if the GCWR is higher than the GVWR, that is what applies.

No, it doesn't.

the NYS VTL, CMV weight
classifications are based on the greater of the following weights: manufacturer's GVWR or GCWR,
registration weight, or actual weight of the vehicle(s) and load.)

Notice the bold red "or". It means one or the other (notice there is not a comma after "GVWR") not the greater of the two.

For example if you are driving a CDL beater truck(25,999 GVWR) and it is registered for 27k or scales at 27k it would need a CDL to be driven.

Like wise if you were driving a F250(9200 GVWR) pulling a 16k(GVWR) trailer and it actually scaled at 27k it would need a CDL.

As his example is a combination of truck and trailer, with the trailer under 10 K, he still is Class B as their ruling is based on a combo. Class A just changes it to Class A from Class B if the trailer is over 10K and exceeds 26K total weight. 19K + 8K = 27K which is over the 26K+1 threshold but not over the 10K+1 trailer that would make it a Class A.

So again Class B is for straight trucks NOT combination vehicles.

(a)(2) Heavy Straight Vehicle (Group B)—Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 11,794 kilograms or more (26,001 pounds or more), or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in excess of 4,536 kilograms (10,000 pounds) GVWR

Notice it specifically says GVWR there is no other option here.

This also matches what a FLDOT examiner told me. And also what the Ohio Highway Patrol told bobcatoh.

Honestly, IMO, what some DMV employees say is worthless, especially second hand. I prefer something that can be read (and taken to the courtroom for evidence). What guarantees the the DMV employee read or understood what they read. Or that they even care. Ask three DOT cops the same question you will get three different answers, only one can be right, hell ask the same cop a question twice you will probably get 2 different answers.

But really after my previous post I don't know what else to say other than to reiterate that ProTouch's example does NOT need a CDL.

It is possible to have a 36k rig and NOT need a CDL.

AI Inc
01-26-2010, 02:35 PM
but you must at least acknowledge my point in the wording of the definition of a CDL Class A licence that is found on the Connecticut State websites

A = Any combination of vehicles with a gross combined weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 or more pounds providing the gross vehicle rating (GVWR) of the vehicle(s) being towed in excess of 10,000 pounds.
- holders of class A licenses may, with the appropriate endorsements and restrictions, operate all vehicles within classes B and C.
(took that from the CT website)


those are the exact words, copy and pasted.

Any combination of vehicles with a gross combined weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 or more pounds ....... meaning, any combination of any vehicles, ie. truck and trailer, with a gross combined weight rating (GVWR of the truck + GVWR of the trailer) that equals to or above 26,001 pounds.......

providing the gross vehicle rating (GVWR) of the vehicle(s) being towed in excess of 10,000 pounds.

that the trailer is rated for over 10,000


my equipment to be moved

GMC 5500 GVWR 25,900 pounds
trailer GVWR 18,000 pounds

GVWR 43,900 pounds


get my point. thats why this argument is so confusing. by the definition on the CT website i shoul dneed a CDL Class A licence to tow that truck...but ill let you guys know what i find out from the DMV

Yes , if combined weight is over 26k , you need a CDL. Combined weight over 10k requires a medical card ( for this there may be an excemption if you are the owner , Im not sure , so dont quote me)

GravelyNut
01-26-2010, 03:13 PM
Gravelynut, seriously, what didn't you understand about my previous post? It doesn't get anymore point blank than that.



I understand this perfectly. You're not reading it correctly. Trust me I am the farthest thing from an English major, so if I can read it you should be able too.



No, it doesn't.



Notice the bold red "or". It means one or the other (notice there is not a comma after "GVWR") not the greater of the two.

For example if you are driving a CDL beater truck(25,999 GVWR) and it is registered for 27k or scales at 27k it would need a CDL to be driven.

Like wise if you were driving a F250(9200 GVWR) pulling a 16k(GVWR) trailer and it actually scaled at 27k it would need a CDL.



So again Class B is for straight trucks NOT combination vehicles.



Notice it specifically says GVWR there is no other option here.



Honestly, IMO, what some DMV employees say is worthless, especially second hand. I prefer something that can be read (and taken to the courtroom for evidence). What guarantees the the DMV employee read or understood what they read. Or that they even care. Ask three DOT cops the same question you will get three different answers, only one can be right, hell ask the same cop a question twice you will probably get 2 different answers.

But really after my previous post I don't know what else to say other than to reiterate that ProTouch's example does NOT need a CDL.

It is possible to have a 36k rig and NOT need a CDL.
I'd suggest you go back and read the NY definition again, they get to chose by whichever is greater. Is that so hard to understand? MFG's GVWR or GCWR is their choice to get to the highest weight. If they don't like those, they can nail you on registered weight, if higher. Or they can go after you for actual weight if they pull out the scales.

This Examiner was/is also a DOT cop. So if you were to run into her, here in Florida, she has the rules of the road. And the blue light to enforce them her way. And after I posted this I asked a Class A CDL driver this question in the blind. His answer was the same. 26K+1 = CDL and for the example 19 + 8, his reply was CDL Class B. And he got his license in NJ and can tow doubles and triples.

360ci
01-26-2010, 06:58 PM
You guys would make a good couple.

The last police-woman I ran into in the Southern US, was in a desperate need of a facial shave!

Duffster
01-26-2010, 08:59 PM
I'd suggest you go back and read the NY definition again, they get to chose by whichever is greater.

I have read it thank you.

Is that so hard to understand?

It obviously is for you.

MFG's GVWR or GCWR is their choice to get to the highest weight. If they don't like those, they can nail you on registered weight, if higher. Or they can go after you for actual weight if they pull out the scales. [/qotue]

There is no choice between GVWR and GCWR, NONE!!!!!!

GCWR =Class A

GVWR =Class B

Why is that so hard for you to understand? Obviously my English lesson from my previous post went in one ear and out the other. :hammerhead:

[QUOTE=GravelyNut;3382478]This Examiner was/is also a DOT cop. So if you were to run into her, here in Florida, she has the rules of the road. And the blue light to enforce them her way.

It is her job to enforce the rules the way they are written. Not whatever she feels like that day.

Why are you hopscotching around between states? You are the one that said that the states CDL rules "are pretty much word for word the same as they come from the Feds".

So New York, Florida and Ohio just happen to be three state that don't follow the feds?

Your argument don't hold water.

PS How do you explain post #52? It blows your little theory all a part.

Duffster
01-26-2010, 09:01 PM
You guys would make a good couple.

The last police-woman I ran into in the Southern US, was in a desperate need of a facial shave!

She wasn't the kind you would want to get the gloves of treatment from Eh? :laugh:

360ci
01-26-2010, 10:56 PM
I just crossed into Louisiana a few years ago, and two DOT guys pulled me over, in the same car. The driver approached the cab, and I had cruise set at 55mph in a 55mph zone, which was a flat area for quite a bit yet. This HUGE officer stated once I had rolled my window all the way down and shut the truck off "Well sur, whatsit gunna bee. Ah speedin' violation, or ah log book violation?". I chose a speeding violation just so it wouldn't go back against the company.

The satellite system on the truck even proved that I was doing the speed limit on that road after I was able to get the download. I was pissed, so I drove to the next rest area that had a fax machine, and sent a copy with my 'ticket' to the DOT also stating that I'll be back in time for the court date as I was going to fight the ticket. They phoned me back three hours later when I was stopped for lunch to tell me that the ticket's been thrown out, and a comfirmation letter will be couriered to my office stating so. Four days later it was at the office, two weeks before the court date!

For some officers, the do take advantage of the blue light. I'm sure in this case this guy was just showing off to his partner, because they were bored and the road had NO traffic on it, either than myself. It's just a waste of time, but it's also good to know that these guys are few and far between.

GravelyNut
01-27-2010, 02:30 AM
I have read it thank you.



It obviously is for you.

[QUOTE=GravelyNut;3382478]MFG's GVWR or GCWR is their choice to get to the highest weight. If they don't like those, they can nail you on registered weight, if higher. Or they can go after you for actual weight if they pull out the scales. [/qotue]

There is no choice between GVWR and GCWR, NONE!!!!!!

GCWR =Class A

GVWR =Class B

Why is that so hard for you to understand? Obviously my English lesson from my previous post went in one ear and out the other. :hammerhead:



It is her job to enforce the rules the way they are written. Not whatever she feels like that day.

Why are you hopscotching around between states? You are the one that said that the states CDL rules "are pretty much word for word the same as they come from the Feds".

So New York, Florida and Ohio just happen to be three state that don't follow the feds?

Your argument don't hold water.

PS How do you explain post #52? It blows your little theory all a part. You made the comment that California was the only state that differs significantly in Post #47. I know of no state other than CA that differs from these signifigantly.
I've been showing that you that the states can set higher rules under their laws than the Feds require. Also that when you get drivers from different states, they too have been told that Class B can and does apply to GCWR not just GVWR. Ohio and Florida are two states that I do currently drive in and NY is on the list of places I'll be traveling to. CT is a state that is off my list of places I'll be going with my current truck and trailer because of their rules.

:laugh: Post #52 links to non-CDL Class D, which if you aren't doing it for commerce is correct. If you aren't transporting in commerce, the rules are different. The 19K + 8K example is in commerce. Therefore non-CDL Class D cannot apply.A driver with a Class D license can now operate a personal use vehicle . Commerce is not personal use.
But down at the bottom is another kink in your statements. How about a Class A CDL that is restricted to under 26K? NY has them.
If you have a CDL Class A license, or a Non-CDL Class C license with an "F" endorsement, that has a "02" restriction (vehicles with a GVWR of 18,000 lbs. or less), the restriction is now the same as a "01" restriction (no vehicle with a GVWR of more than 26,000 lbs.).

Duffster
01-27-2010, 10:56 AM
Lets try to get the quote tags right. ;)

You made the comment that California was the only state that differs significantly in Post #47.
I've been showing that you that the states can set higher rules under their laws than the Feds require. Also that when you get drivers from different states, they too have been told that Class B can and does apply to GCWR not just GVWR. Ohio and Florida are two states that I do currently drive in and NY is on the list of places I'll be traveling to. CT is a state that is off my list of places I'll be going with my current truck and trailer because of their rules.

Why would you be concerned about another states CDL rules? You yourself said this.

The good thing is, the other states can't apply their CDL laws to anyone except their own people if you have another state's CDL license.

:laugh: Post #52 links to non-CDL Class D, which if you aren't doing it for commerce is correct. If you aren't transporting in commerce, the rules are different.

I have already pointed out to you that you are confusing the 2 different definitions of CMV. NOT all CMV's need a CDL.

Do you think you need a CDL for everything used in commerce with a GCWR over 10k?

What about the flow chart that was previously posted? Is that wrong too?

The 19K + 8K example is in commerce. Therefore non-CDL Class D cannot apply.

AGAIN that is incorrect. NOT all commercial vehicles need a CDL.

Try using the flow chart.

Commerce is not personal use.

You don't say. :dizzy:

But down at the bottom is another kink in your statements. How about a Class A CDL that is restricted to under 26K? NY has them.

A kink:laugh: You obviously have no comprehension of what you are reading.

A "F" Endorsement is for farm use :rolleyes:

So again please tell me how the flow chart and post #52 are wrong.

GravelyNut
01-27-2010, 12:54 PM
Lets try to get the quote tags right. ;)



Why would you be concerned about another states CDL rules? You yourself said this. Because Ohio and Florida are states that I will have a CDL from. Currently Florida but it will be transfered to Ohio within a couple years. So there is the concern for those two. Now why are you concerned about Ohio's if you don't live there. ;)




I have already pointed out to you that you are confusing the 2 different definitions of CMV. NOT all CMV's need a CDL.

Do you think you need a CDL for everything used in commerce with a GCWR over 10k? In some states, yes. Search the web and you'll find where NC got a guy for it in 2004. $300 fine said he did as did the judge. NY has an under 26K CDL Class A license.



What about the flow chart that was previously posted? Is that wrong too?



AGAIN that is incorrect. NOT all commercial vehicles need a CDL.

Try using the flow chart.

Book vs state laws. State Laws win if stricter than the Fed's for those who have that state's license or tags. The book was copied from the Fed sample manual. Go to dmv.org and some of the manuals only have the covers changed while it says sample manual on other pages. Which when some states copied them, had a flaw in the flowchart. The Feds got it wrong on the very first line dropping down from the first box. If the NY book was right as you believe, then you wouldn't have the NY CDL Class A with 01 Restrictions.


You don't say. :dizzy:



A kink:laugh: You obviously have no comprehension of what you are reading.

A "F" Endorsement is for farm use :rolleyes:

So again please tell me how the flow chart and post #52 are wrong.

Read the section quoted again. If you have a CDL Class A license, or a Non-CDL Class C license with an "F" endorsement, that has a "02" restriction (vehicles with a GVWR of 18,000 lbs. or less), the restriction is now the same as a "01" restriction (no vehicle with a GVWR of more than 26,000 lbs.). Note the comma between the Class A and Class C with an F , the word "or" and the comma after the part about the non-CDL Class C. The A Class restricted doesn't say F. It says "02" is going to "01" Restriction and CDL Class A weight ratings are normally over 26K. No mention of that Class A being F restricted.

Same applies to your failure to note the ":" in NY's way of determining which is the heavier weight to go by. The : means this, what follows are the choices. They further broke it down under the MFG's ratings to a choice of GVWR or GCWR. So if the GCWR is higher than the GVWR, they can use it.

01 TRUCK/TRL COMBI/TRUCK
Not Over 26,000 GVWR is the NY definition of the 01 restriction. Shouldn't even be needed because it isn't over 26K by your thinking. But it's there. So back to your post 47, CA isn't the only state with odd licenses.

Duffster
01-27-2010, 02:52 PM
Because Ohio and Florida are states that I will have a CDL from. Currently Florida but it will be transfered to Ohio within a couple years. So there is the concern for those two. Now why are you concerned about Ohio's if you don't live there.

What's with your fetish with NY then. I have no real concern for any of them except the falsities you post.

In some states, yes. Search the web and you'll find where NC got a guy for it in 2004. $300 fine said he did as did the judge.

If you were so sure of this you would post a link.

NY has an under 26K CDL Class A license.

NY has a "O1" Restriction which has nothing to do with this discussion.

Book vs state laws. State Laws win if stricter than the Fed's for those who have that state's license or tags. The book was copied from the Fed sample manual. Go to dmv.org and some of the manuals only have the covers changed while it says sample manual on other pages. Which when some states copied them, had a flaw in the flowchart. The Feds got it wrong on the very first line dropping down from the first box. If the NY book was right as you believe, then you wouldn't have the NY CDL Class A with 01 Restrictions.

I never reference a dmv.org book/website. I only refer to each state's book/website.

The flow chart still works for NY. The O1 restriction is to keep guys that get there class A with a pickup and trailer from driving class 8 tractor/truck and trailer. Not so sure what is hard for you to understand about that.

Read the section quoted again. Note the comma between the Class A and Class C with an F , the word "or" and the comma after the part about the non-CDL Class C. The A Class restricted doesn't say F. It says "02" is going to "01" Restriction and CDL Class A weight ratings are normally over 26K. No mention of that Class A being F restricted.

See above.

Same applies to your failure to note the ":" in NY's way of determining which is the heavier weight to go by. The : means this, what follows are the choices. They further broke it down under the MFG's ratings to a choice of GVWR or GCWR. So if the GCWR is higher than the GVWR, they can use it.

Your continued failure to read and comprehend basic English is getting tedious.

is the NY definition of the 01 restriction. Shouldn't even be needed because it isn't over 26K by your thinking. But it's there. So back to your post 47, CA isn't the only state with odd licenses.

I have never said/thought anything of the such.

Here is the full O and O1 restriction.

Truck/trailer Combination:
Truck/trailer combination only (O)
Truck cannot exceed 26,000 lbs. GVWR (O1)

See explanation above.

Again please tell how flow chart and post #52 are wrong.:dizzy:

Duffster
01-27-2010, 03:48 PM
NY has a "O1" Restriction which has nothing to do with this discussion.


Come to think about it, it does.

IF NY was to require a class B CDL for the 19/8k example rig. They would have to allow a driver to test in that rig. (And that is set by the feds)

If one were to get a class B with said rig it would then need a "O1" restriction to keep one from driving an over 26k straight truck. There isn't a "O1" restriction for class B.

Same with air brakes.


Again please tell how flow chart and post #52 are wrong

360ci
01-27-2010, 05:42 PM
I concur, class B doesn't require an air brake endorsements, mostly so it's less work to train drivers on air brakes and it lowers initial vehicle cost by going the hydraulic route. In Canada, all class 8 (A) vehicles are produced with air brakes due to weight restrictions.

What's with your fetish with NY then

Everything, high prices, pessimistic people abound the sidewalks talking to themselves in total chaos about absolutely nothing important. Besides, I heard they got a Big Apple there! ...somewhere.

Duffster
01-28-2010, 09:52 AM
I concur, class B doesn't require an air brake endorsements, mostly so it's less work to train drivers on air brakes and it lowers initial vehicle cost by going the hydraulic route. In Canada, all class 8 (A) vehicles are produced with air brakes due to weight restrictions.

Not sure if I am following you. Most class B size trucks here have air brakes.

R.L. Hale Landscaping LLC
01-28-2010, 10:29 AM
what i am not sure of is that if you need a cdl if the trailer is over 10,000 pounds even if your combined in under 26000.

say a 9900 1 ton truck with a 12,000 pound trailer. combined 21,900. Dot #'s and medical is all you need?

Its pretty clear that if you are over 26000 and towing over 10k trailer cdl A is required, but im not sure on towing over 10k trailer while being under 26k

Duffster
01-28-2010, 02:09 PM
what i am not sure of is that if you need a cdl if the trailer is over 10,000 pounds even if your combined in under 26000.

You need absolutely nothing, CDL wise that is.

say a 9900 1 ton truck with a 12,000 pound trailer. combined 21,900. Dot #'s and medical is all you need?

Correct

Its pretty clear that if you are over 26000 and towing over 10k trailer cdl A is required, but im not sure on towing over 10k trailer while being under 26k

See above.

360ci
01-28-2010, 06:00 PM
Not sure if I am following you. Most class B size trucks here have air brakes.

Class 'B' here isn't a truck, it's a school bus license. GVWR doesn't surpass a class 7 weight rating, as 99% of all buses are single rear axle. With a class B, you can also drive a class F, or mini-bus, or coach bus which is also class C. Most coach companies want their drivers to have a B, as the B adds additional road training, such as railway crossings, etc. Almost all coach buses however have air brakes due to the weight of the vehicle.

The licensing varies here from province to province, just as it does down there - state to state. There are a lot of federal regulations and endorsements so each province is on the same page with one another to narrow down complications for operators, and business owners alike.

Duffster
01-28-2010, 08:07 PM
Class 'B' here isn't a truck, it's a school bus license. GVWR doesn't surpass a class 7 weight rating, as 99% of all buses are single rear axle. With a class B, you can also drive a class F, or mini-bus, or coach bus which is also class C. Most coach companies want their drivers to have a B, as the B adds additional road training, such as railway crossings, etc. Almost all coach buses however have air brakes due to the weight of the vehicle.

The licensing varies here from province to province, just as it does down there - state to state. There are a lot of federal regulations and endorsements so each province is on the same page with one another to narrow down complications for operators, and business owners alike.

I see now. :drinkup:

GravelyNut
01-28-2010, 10:39 PM
Not sure if I am following you. Most class B size trucks here have air brakes.

If you've ever seen a Dodge D800, you can find those with hydraulic brakes and a need for a Class A license when towing a 10K+1 trailer. Just don't expect that truck to get better than 6 MPG on the highway. Empty. Or more than 100 miles on the tiny 16/18 gallon tank.

360ci
01-28-2010, 11:21 PM
If you've ever seen a Dodge D800, you can find those with hydraulic brakes and a need for a Class A license when towing a 10K+1 trailer. Just don't expect that truck to get better than 6 MPG on the highway. Empty. Or more than 100 miles on the tiny 16/18 gallon tank.

I pass those all the time...in museums.

Same rule applies here for trailering, you can tow with a B,C, or D license up to 10K, but any heavier requires the driver to have a A license for 'transport truck'.

CLARK LAWN
01-29-2010, 12:03 AM
I concur, class B doesn't require an air brake endorsements, mostly so it's less work to train drivers on air brakes and it lowers initial vehicle cost by going the hydraulic route. In Canada, all class 8 (A) vehicles are produced with air brakes due to weight restrictions.



Everything, high prices, pessimistic people abound the sidewalks talking to themselves in total chaos about absolutely nothing important. Besides, I heard they got a Big Apple there! ...somewhere.

it doesnt require an airbrake endoresment besause there is no such thing.i am so tired of hearing about this "air brake endorsment" i just wish someone would show me in writing were this thing is.

GravelyNut
01-29-2010, 12:21 AM
it doesnt require an airbrake endoresment besause there is no such thing.i am so tired of hearing about this "air brake endorsment" i just wish someone would show me in writing were this thing is.No Air Brakes is a restriction. If the restriction isn't on your license, then you've got the right to drive a vehicle in your Class of license with air brakes.

Duffster
01-29-2010, 06:03 AM
it doesnt require an airbrake endoresment besause there is no such thing.i am so tired of hearing about this "air brake endorsment" i just wish someone would show me in writing were this thing is.

Canada :waving:

If you've ever seen a Dodge D800, you can find those with hydraulic brakes and a need for a Class A license when towing a 10K+1 trailer. Just don't expect that truck to get better than 6 MPG on the highway. Empty. Or more than 100 miles on the tiny 16/18 gallon tank.

There is a blast from the past.

360ci
01-29-2010, 06:42 PM
Canada :waving:

Yup. Anyone can drive any vehicle with hydraulic brakes, no endorsement is required to say you CANNOT drive a vehicle without air brakes, but you require an endorsement to drive a vehicle WITH air brakes here - north of the border.
It's more money for the government is all it is. Gramma could write the air brake 'test' and do a practical test in less than an hour, and $75 later she can upgrade the brakes on her mini-van.

Duffster
02-01-2010, 12:31 AM
Not to 175701 but I got an interesting email from Floriduh if anyone is interested.175705

Duffster
02-24-2010, 06:12 PM
Not to 175701 but I got an interesting email from Floriduh if anyone is interested.175705

What? Nobody wants to see it? :laugh:

Here it is anyway.


From: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 2:17 PM
To: Register, Dianne
Subject: CDL requirement questions



Good Afternoon.

I was hoping you could clarify something for me.

If I have a commercial use F550(GVWR 19,500#) pulling a trailer (GVWR 8,000#) for a total of 27,500#, no passengers or hazmat, would I need a CDL? If so which class?

Thank you.



RE: CDL requirement questions
From: "Register, Dianne" <DianneRegister@flhsmv.gov>View Contact
To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx




With the information you are providing me a Class E license will work. But if the trailer you are pulling GVWR is 10,000# or more then you would need a Class A license.

Thank You

Dianne




The Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles is committed to Service, Integrity, Courtesy, Professionalism, Innovation and Excellence in all we do. Please let us know how we are doing via our online customer service survey at www.flhsmv.gov.




:drinkup:

AdvLandscapeLLC
03-01-2010, 09:59 PM
I am incredibly confused by all of this I have a Dodge ram 3500 with a gvrw of 11500# and a 16ft goose neck dump trailer with a gross of 14000 lbs my total is 25000# . Do I need a CDL do I not?? the state of CT site is absolutely useless with its information it is not clear and concise at all. Any help would be awesome.*trucewhiteflag*

Duffster
03-01-2010, 10:13 PM
I am incredibly confused by all of this I have a Dodge ram 3500 with a gvrw of 11500# and a 16ft goose neck dump trailer with a gross of 14000 lbs my total is 25000# . Do I need a CDL do I not?? the state of CT site is absolutely useless with its information it is not clear and concise at all. Any help would be awesome.*trucewhiteflag*

Your total would be 25,500 and you would NOT need a CDL because you are less then 26,001.

AdvLandscapeLLC
03-01-2010, 10:17 PM
Thats what i was thinking but the trailer over 10000 throws me off this is what is in my state book

Class A
Any combination of vehicles with a gross combined
weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 or more pounds
provided the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of
the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000
pounds. (Holders of class A licenses may, with any
appropriate endorsements and/or permits, operate all
vehicles within classes B and C).
Class B
Any single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 or more
pounds, or any such vehicle towing a vehicle not in
excess of 10,000 pounds GVWR. (Holders of class B
licenses may, with any appropriate endorsements and
or permits, operate all vehicles within class C).
Class C
Any single vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that does
not meet the definition of class A or class B as contained
herein, but that is designed to transport 16 or more
passengers, including the driver; or is required to be
placarded for hazardous materials; or is designed to
transport more than 10 passengers, including the
driver, and used to transport students under the age
of 21 years to and from school.

Duffster
03-01-2010, 10:21 PM
Class A
Any combination of vehicles with a gross combined
weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 or more pounds
provided the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of
the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000
pounds.

The key word is PROVIDED.

The combination needs to be over 26 with the trailer over 10 before you need a CDL class A.

:drinkup:

AdvLandscapeLLC
03-01-2010, 10:24 PM
Duffster thanks for the help I appreciate it. They really word stuff in confusing ways, So do you think I would need a CDL to haul this trailer whether B or C

Duffster
03-01-2010, 10:31 PM
Duffster thanks for the help I appreciate it. They really word stuff in confusing ways, So do you think I would need a CDL to haul this trailer whether B or C

Why would you need a B or a C?

Are you carrying Hazmat?

AdvLandscapeLLC
03-01-2010, 10:34 PM
That 10000lb in tow thing keep throwing a flag up for me because the trailer has a 14000 gross. But no hazmat just firewood and bulk product

Duffster
03-01-2010, 10:38 PM
Try this. ..............

AdvLandscapeLLC
03-01-2010, 10:41 PM
Does that flow chart hold up for CT as well, because that seems way to simplified and understandable for anything that CT would publish lol

Duffster
03-01-2010, 10:44 PM
Does that flow chart hold up for CT as well, because that seems way to simplified and understandable for anything that CT would publish lol

Sure does.....

AdvLandscapeLLC
03-01-2010, 10:52 PM
CT also has this in its new drivers manual
Class A License - Combination Vehicles. Any combination of vehicles with gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001
or more pounds falls in Class A, providing the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of
10,000 pounds. Most Class A vehicles are trucks, such as tractor-trailer or truck and trailer combinations. However, tractor-trailer
buses may be found in a few communities. Driving a Class A vehicle requires considerably more skill and knowledge than driving
vehicles in Classes B and C. Since these skills include those required to drive a Class B and C vehicle, a driver who has a
Class A license also may drive vehicles in classes B and C

Duffster
03-01-2010, 11:03 PM
CT also has this in its new drivers manual
Class A License - Combination Vehicles. Any combination of vehicles with gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001
or more pounds falls in Class A, providing the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of
10,000 pounds. Most Class A vehicles are trucks, such as tractor-trailer or truck and trailer combinations. However, tractor-trailer
buses may be found in a few communities. Driving a Class A vehicle requires considerably more skill and knowledge than driving
vehicles in Classes B and C. Since these skills include those required to drive a Class B and C vehicle, a driver who has a
Class A license also may drive vehicles in classes B and C

Does that affect you? No.