Leaking Pond at skimmer.

[drsogr]

This pond has been a nightmare. This is my first pond, I figured if I read up on ponds it would be enough to get me through my first pond. The skimmer had been leaking where it meets up to the liner from day one.

The first time I put it together I used no silicone - Leaked.

The second time I put it together I used silicone - Leaked

The third time I put it together I siliconed it like crazy - Leaked

The 4th time I put it together I siliconed it, and I made a gasket for each side of the liner - Leaked

Now what?

I think all my problems began with using an inferior liner. The customer had a liner that he wanted to use, so we used it. The package said it had a 25 year warranty. I am also matching this up to a Savio skimmer, which does not include a gasket. It is the cs0000 model I beleive.

Looking at the 2 liners there is a considerable difference in thickness. The liner I have is more rubbery and less plastic like. It is at least twice the thickness.

Do I need to replace the liner? If so where do I seam it, right beneath the waterfall?

[stoneseller]

The face plate on the Savio Skimmer I installed made a very good seal. Did you install it correctly?

[drsogr]

I don't know how you could install it incorrectly. That is why I think the liner may be the problem. The liner really is your only gasket.

[stoneseller]

IIRC, I did not use any type of sealant at all. Just removed the faceplate, made sure the liner & both front & back of faceplate were clean, set liner nice & flat, then reinstalled faceplate. Then I cut a hole out of the liner. Worked great

[drsogr]

Well the liner I was using was about a 1/3 of the thickness of a typical liner. It was some crap the homeowner bought at Sams Club. I am guessing that is what the problem is. The liner I had has no give to it, and doesn't allow for a good seal like a typical liner.

[bbriggs]

Probably a PVC liner, but I could be wrong. Silicone is not the best choice of sealants for ponds, even the ones intended for immersion. If it bonds at all it is likely a temporary bond. Seen a lot of good EPDM liners fall right off skimmers using only silicone. Polyurethane adhesive/sealants are better, like the marine versions made by 3M or Sikaflex. The versions available at lumberyards intended for roofing, I've heard, work satisfactorily. I use 3M 5200, takes days to cure but I don't always wait for it to even skin over before filling. Strong stuff, but I've not used it on PVC liners. Lightly sanding the liner might give it more tooth (and clean off residue)?

[drsogr]

Thanks for your input...it is a pvc liner. Which seams to be my problem. If I would have used the rubber liner that is intended for it, I think I would have not had any problems. I was comparing the two liners and the good liner is about 2.5 thicker than the cheap junk we used. I think I need to change out the liner, and all of my problems would go away...but that might be a mess to do. I might try and look for the stuff that you are talking about. The silicone just peels right off, it never really bonds very well.

[hole in one lco]

are you 100% shire thats where its leaking

[drsogr]

Yea I am.....I dug out behind the skimmer and the water was trickling around the side of the skimmer through the sand. I lifted up the liner and it is just soaked in that area. I already checked to make sure that there were no leaks in the liner in that area.

[stoneseller]

Have you considered cutting a gasket out of regular EPDM? It sound like your liner is too thin to seal well between the 2 halves of the skimmer weir.

[drsogr]

I did...I thought that would take care of it. It still leaked though. I guess it didn't get ponded well between that and the crap liner. I siliconed the heck out of it too....that is why I am so confused.

[AceSprinkleRx]

If the HO's liner is that crappy at the skimmer - I can only guess what it must be like elsewhere.

Before I would go to too much trouble, I would attempt to 'sandwich' the PVC liner between two solid pieces of good liner and reinstall the faceplate.

2nd possibility is to section out the bad PVC and seam tape a solid commercial grade liner in front of the skimmer and reinstall the faceplate.

~

[bbriggs]

The PVC liners aren't particularly durable or desirable except for cost and weight. If the homeowner is looking for something other than a short-term water feature, then they would benefit from upgrading to 45 mil EPDM. However, I'd expect a good polyurethane sealant to solve the leakage problem if both skimmer and liner are clean and roughed up a little where they meet.

[Victor]

You were right when you said that the liner is your only gasket. I hate to tell you this, but your best (and probably only viable option) is going to be to replace that whole liner with your EPDM liner. If you don't do that, you're probably going to be getting quite a few more calls from the owner of the pond. If you try to go the seam tape route, your probably going to have problems with more leaks (because you'd be joining 2 different types of materials).

Here's an important question for you. Did you install a protective barrier under the liner? If you didn't... stick your hand out, so I can slap it!

As far as sealant goes... When constructing a fish pond. Never use any other type of sealant, besides aquarium safe silicone! I don't care how well any of the other sealants bond to the many different types of liners out there. The only type of sealant you should ever use, is aquarium safe silicone. The others are unsafe for your fish.

When constructing a fish pond. Mistakes can be very costly. Always try to do it right the first time. Don't take chances. :)

Vic

[Victor]

The purpose of the aquarium safe silicone, is to act as a void filler. It doesn't have to get great adhesion to the liner to work properly. All it has to do, is to fill and block any gaps that water would have been able to pass through, had the silicone not been there. As proof that it works, I used it on the koi pond in my backyard. It has sealed penetrations all over my liner. For example. There are holes in my liner where I installed my 2 bottom drains (that have 6 1/2 feet of water on top of them), at both of my skimmers, at all 4 of my venturi jets which have 2 feet of water pressure acting on them, at the bulkhead that leads to my auto-fill chamber and at the 2" bulkhead I installed for future expansion. If I was worried about how effective aquarium safe silicone was going to be at sealing all of those penetrations of my liner, I never would have designed my pond that way. Use a good quality liner and the right sealant and you'll be good to go. Just take your time when you apply it.

Vic

[horizonlandscape]

Befor you go through to much more trouble take a look at the faceplate and make sure that all the screws in the faceplate are countersunken/bottomed out and tite. Have seen this happen several times that the screws will seem to stop but you my still not have them as snug as they need to be to make your watertite seal.

Thanks,
Darron Bryant

[drsogr]

Well I have decided to take out the whole liner and try again. I have been spending a lot of time thinking about this...and wasting my customers time. I think this is the best solution. Unfortunately it is not the least time consuming...or the cheapest. But I think it is the best long term solution.

This may be my first and last pond. I don't think I am cut out for all of these headaches! I would rather not worry about a pond leaking. There are so many connections where you can have problems. If I do decide to do this more, I am going to go to a few build a pond days to hopefully get some good tips.

[hole in one lco]

Thats why you dont use there sh %t start whit the kits

[bbriggs]

Polyurethane sealants are commonly used in high quality koi ponds, they are now preferred by many over silicone products because of their durability and reliability. The fish thrive in these ponds. We each can choose, however, what we think is 'right the first time'.

[Victor]

In my research, I never saw that an "aquarium safe" polyurethane sealant had been developed. You're right. Thanks for letting me know about another option. :)

Vic

[drsogr]

Well it was the liner...I changed out the liner and no leak what so ever. I had tried everything else and that had to be it. I am glad I figured it out. Lesson to everyone never use a cheap liner!

[Victor]

Did you install underlayment under the liner to protect it?

Vic

[Victor]

I'll take that as a no. Not good. :rolleyes:

Vic

[Victor]

I don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but if the leak was coming from a hole in the old liner. There's a good chance the same thing will happen to the new one you just put in the excavation. Since you didn't respond to my question about underlayment, I'm thinking you didn't use any. I really hope I'm wrong here Drsogr. Noone wants to go through that. :(

Vic

[drsogr]

LOL...your killing me. No I did not use underlayment. I dug it out...lined it with sand...and then put in the liner. The old liner was the plastic material. The leak was not in the liner...it was in the area where it met up with the skimmer. I changed out the liner to the aquascape rubberized material and it provided a better gasket.

There is no rocks in the ground where I live...or nothing to puncture it. I went on the advice from a local nursery. Not someone that lives in ohio.

[drsogr]

There was not a whole in the liner....the cheap liner had just provided a bad gasket for the skimmer.

[Victor]

Ummm.... Drsogr..... The sand you said you lined the excavation with, IS the underlayment Buddy. So you DID use underlayment. I'm sure you already knew that though, since you obviously know what you're doing, or at least the experts at the nursery do. :rolleyes:

Vic

[drsogr]

I appreciate the help. I don't know much about ponds. I am still learning. I am though smart enough to ask for help when I need it.

Thank You

Derek