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steveparrott
02-25-2006, 01:45 PM
I'm curious whether or not any of you have started using LED's. I'm especially interested to know how they've been holding up – any premature burnouts, performance issues, etc.

I attended a seminar given by leading LED researchers about a year ago. They were all in agreement that viable and reliable high intensity LED's were about 2 to 3 years away. Contrary to that, this past year has seen these products (especially MR16 LED's) flood into the market.

The biggest concern was with heat. LED's are especially sensitive to heat with lamp life reduced by 50% with a rise in temperature of about 18 degrees F. With incandescent lighting, a great proportion of the heat is radiated out as light energy. With LED's, virtually all of the generated heat is absorbed by the circuit board that holds the LED. For this reason, in most good LED designs large heat sinks are used to dissipate the heat. But when I look at the MR16 LED's I don't see a large heat sink and knowing that most MR16 fixtures are enclosed and many are in hot climates, I have to wonder.

Pro-Scapes
02-25-2006, 01:52 PM
I got LED flash lights and some small LED tail lights on one of my trailer. Both seem to hold up well. I wouldnt be crazy about the blue hue the LED's have for a lighting project on a home. Maybe for moon lighting but from my experience with LED's They got a little ways to come before Im willing to place them on a customers property. I wanted to try a few from noel to moon light our hot tub but it might be hard to do without it shining in your eyes when you layed your head back.

I think its definatly promising tho. I mean when you can fully light a whole property and draw just a tiny amount of wattage you gotta think. unless a product is proven I wouldnt want to install it at a customers house unless I knew them well. I plan to test any new merchandise at my house or families

NightScenes
02-25-2006, 10:14 PM
Steve, we had a presentation at the LVLIA conference from a Sylvania guy and he said the same thing that you stated. It looks like its going to be awhile before they'll figure out how to keep those things cool enough to actually be practical for our use.

It is something that I am really looking forward to.

Frog Lights, LLC
02-26-2006, 03:45 PM
The LED is on the path to the future. I think in the not to distant future there will longer be the conventional bulbs that we are now using in our homes and businesses.
With regard to landscape lighting there are many advantages to consider:
No heat .. they do not get hot
use very little wattage: .. large spots about 1 watt plus or minus
long life: we claim 11 yr life but actually it is much longer
safety. Hi voltage and water is a problem.. LED in pools ponds super.
disadvantages...
not as bright.. this is changing fast. we already have some super bright LED's in stock and the next generation is coming.
white color has blue tint.. This and the other colors are more suited for "washing" walls or rocks with light. The effect is great when blended with halogen lights. The long life makes it easy to use with pavers or other hardscape. We have coming in the next generation of paver lights, fully protected and ideal for a drive, walk, and patio. (they also change colors)
We have in stock direct replacement LED MR-16. Tired of changing lamps just plug one of these babies in and "forget about it."
One other problem is they can not at this time be run at higher than 12v, but higher is not necessary since they do not use much current.
We have them in stainless steel , various sizes to be used as well lights, spot lights, in pools, ponds , waterfalls, mulch , decks etc. They are really another good item to play with.
Note the color is the color of the LED and not a filter. available in white, red, green , amber, blue. I like to use green against pine trees and fences, white for rocks and walls, blue in water.

Pro-Scapes
02-26-2006, 04:49 PM
I still think they need to be more proven before im willing to leave them with a customer. I think your definatly correct about them being the future though noel.

Still waiting for some for my house so we can moonlight with them.

Mike M
09-04-2008, 07:13 PM
Well, it's been 2-3 years out.

Have the viable LED's made landfall yet?

JoeyD
09-05-2008, 03:29 PM
depends on who you talk too...........................

Mike M
09-06-2008, 07:55 AM
I'm locked up in a hotel room with my family in America's most boring state capital and have nothing better to do but scroll back to the lighting forum's earlier posts and then reply to them. I slept on the floor last night to save myself from a sleeper sofa.

cduncanf
09-08-2008, 03:46 PM
You forgot to mention one major disadvantage of LED lights for those of us in the northern U.S. and Canada. Their lack of heat output often means that they will disappear under a heavy snowfall, whereas traditional tungsten halogen lamps easily melt through snow, creating a dramatic landscape as the light reflects off the snow.

Mike M
09-08-2008, 04:03 PM
Christopher Walken!! How's it goin' man?

You know James is all into LED's and he's got like permafrost up there. It might be different in his market than Boston, since most people use those properties as summer homes.

Us southerners on the other hand, have nothing to worry about.

Mike M
09-08-2008, 04:07 PM
Oh, also, James just flips them upside down. A lot of ordinances require downlight-only. For structures, he uses down lights under the eaves (at least that's what I saw in his last pic).

Mike M
09-08-2008, 04:44 PM
LOL. I met a guy from Boston who said the same thing about LED's and the snow, but it ain't you. He looked like Christopher Walken.

bmwsmity
09-08-2008, 08:23 PM
I recently got to take a look at the light output from Kichler's 35w equivalent accent light, and I have to say I was very impressed. It was a true white with no blue tint, the output was very uniform, and it was definitely bright.

However,

I only was viewing this in a dark office against a white wall.

I've yet to see LED in a real world application, but this will change very soon. I just sold some of Kichler's LED deck lights as a replacement of a customer's current 10 year old wedge bulb lights that suck bad. They only take 1.9w and put out equivalent of 10w.

When I get them in, I will take some pics and post them, as well as let you all know what the customer and I think.

I've also been trying to sell some accents to prospective customers. I'll keep you posted guys.

Chris J
09-08-2008, 09:10 PM
smity, your going to like those deck lights. I've installed several of them, and the output is outstanding. In fact, I'm putting 29 of them in this week along a dock and boat slip. Should turn out fantastic.

fraggle
09-08-2008, 09:42 PM
I tried using the Lux Led mr-16 replacement and i have to say put up against a reg mr 16 halogen bulb the warm white is very very close .. i asked about the
warranty if the bulb fails before the "expected" life there working on an answer and will let me know if they will stand behind their claims:usflag:

fraggle
09-08-2008, 09:44 PM
has anyone actually set up a whole system with Led's and if so does it have to follow the same "hub" system or can you daisy chain indef.

bmwsmity
09-08-2008, 10:47 PM
great to hear you like those lights chris!

those people are great customers of mine, so i dont want to let them down...

fraggle, regarding the hub system, i'm not so sure it's really needed, depending on the setup.

from what i've been told, the LED's are either on or off...there's no difference between 10 volts or 12 at the fixture..... I know the Kichler fixtures need 9.5 volts to turn on, up to 12 volts....

depending on the length of run and total load, it's conceivable to not need to hub LED fixtures (i would still fuse the run though)....this is the true beauty of LED and why i'm really pushing it to my current customers who are good candidates.

Chris J
09-08-2008, 10:58 PM
from what i've been told, the LED's are either on or off...there's no difference between 10 volts or 12 at the fixture..... I know the Kichler fixtures need 9.5 volts to turn on, up to 12 volts....

depending on the length of run and total load, it's conceivable to not need to hub LED fixtures (i would still fuse the run though)....this is the true beauty of LED and why i'm really pushing it to my current customers who are good candidates.

The parameters for Kichler's is 8-15 volts. Although I haven't pushed either of these limits, this is the info I've received from the brass at Kichler. I just did a dock, and the total run length was about 100'. I daisy chained the entire run with 14 deck lights (and a 35w MR16 in the middle) and I only had .6 volt drop from first to last fixture. If you really want to have some fun, get a copy of the voltage calculator CD and play with some mock up scenarios. You will soon find that it's almost ridiculous how far you can go with a daisy chained run.

The Lighting Geek
09-08-2008, 11:40 PM
I just installed an complete LED system donated by Kichler for a LEED home project. It was promoted by the local electric utility and a designer I have worked with asked me to donate the installation. I was impressed by the color and the lumen output, honestly could not tell the difference between halogen and LED. 8.5w for a 35w output allowed us do the whole system with a 300 watt transformer. We daisy chained it over 100' with no problem.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-09-2008, 07:45 AM
I tried using the Lux Led mr-16 replacement and i have to say put up against a reg mr 16 halogen bulb the warm white is very very close .. i asked about the
warranty if the bulb fails before the "expected" life there working on an answer and will let me know if they will stand behind their claims:usflag:

The Luxxo LED MR16 Lamps are warrantied by the manufacturer for two years from time of sale. I encourage you to try out the lamps for yourselves.

Closing in on 750 installed to date.... and lovin' it.

Have a great day.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-09-2008, 07:56 AM
You forgot to mention one major disadvantage of LED lights for those of us in the northern U.S. and Canada. Their lack of heat output often means that they will disappear under a heavy snowfall, whereas traditional tungsten halogen lamps easily melt through snow, creating a dramatic landscape as the light reflects off the snow.

All power LEDs (not indicator style) create heat, and in quantities that will melt snow.

The Luxxo LED MR16 LEDs lamps that I use and represent operate at temperatures in the 120 Deg. F. range. This is significantly warmer then any snow I have ever encountered!:canadaflag:

When they are installed into a bullet style, above grade fixture, they will begin melting the snow that surrounds the fixture almost immediately. The larger the accumulation of snow over top of the fixture the longer it will take to melt that snow away, just like it has always been. My point is that 120 Deg. F. is more then warm enough to melt snow.

Where you may have some snow load issues is when they are used in ingrade applications... Again, its not that the snow will not melt away from the fixtures, it just may take a bit longer.

Under severe conditions, where you receive a heavy snowfall that covers the fixtures during the day with a foot or more snow, you may not see any light coming from them for one night or so.... but I have seen the same thing happen with halogen lamped fixtures here in Muskoka. It just adds some dynamism to the lighting system thanks to Mother Nature.

Have a great day.

bmwsmity
09-09-2008, 09:53 AM
anyone know if unique has any LED in the works? joey?

i know they are starting to use 24v now, which shares some benefits with LED (more load per run, etc.) from what i understand (little).

JoeyD
09-09-2008, 10:17 AM
We are continuing to test and play with different LED technologies. We dont want to jeapordize putting out the latest and greatest LED product only for it to be obsolete in a year. So we are really trying to take our time with this one and see where the technology goes. We really like the idea of a retrofit lamp like the LUXXO or USHIO but majority of our customers that we have field tested dont like the price per lamp.

We will definitely at some point release an LED line but it will only be when we can confidently stand behind the product, its warranty, and its performance. Simulated life tests are not always good enough, especially when you start claiming things like 20 years!! We owe it to ourselves and our customers to make sure that when we do bring an LED line to market that it is a product we truly can stand behind for a long long time!

Mike M
09-09-2008, 05:05 PM
I like that response, Joey! Just today I was figuring how a 24v LED set-up would change everything and save us tons on copper and labor.

I am doing some loop experiments. Tonight I plan to use solid #14 in a "single-wire" loop (as opposed to a 2-wire cable). I'm going to make a circle around my house.

I just think solid is the way to go with small diameter wire. The connections are significantly faster and easier, and there is less risk of accumulated cut strands on long chains. Attaching to the trans is also easier.

JoeyD
09-09-2008, 05:54 PM
24v LED will be the end all I believe!!!

fraggle
09-09-2008, 08:02 PM
i talked to my distrib and they are working getting a manufact. to supply all the material so i could test the whole led system for myself. but i have to say that the 3 watt lux is a good product for now its on the clock so well see for how long.....its a little odd to me that the manufac. will only warranty a bulb for 2 years when its supposed to last for 15 .... what's the going rate for an LED install...is it the same ? less? do you leave a little extra just in case you have to put in new bulbs?:usflag:

Chris J
09-09-2008, 09:16 PM
This is not the place to discuss "going rates" but in general an LED system will cost more up front, with long term savings on lamps and energy savings to the end user.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-09-2008, 10:18 PM
but i have to say that the 3 watt lux is a good product for now its on the clock so well see for how long.....its a little odd to me that the manufac. will only warranty a bulb for 2 years when its supposed to last for 15 .... what's the going rate for an LED install...is it the same ? less? do you leave a little extra just in case you have to put in new bulbs?:usflag:

So you think that a 2 year warranty on a lamp is a little odd? In comparison to what other lamp manufacturer? What warranty does GE or Ushio give on their lamps? What warranty does Xelogen give on their long life lamps?

In another example... fixtures. Fixtures are warrantied for all sorts of different time lines. 3yrs, 5yrs, 10yrs, etc... it doesn't mean that the manufacturer doesn't fully expect the product to last longer then the warranty! Does an Automaker warranty their vehicles for the expected full useful life of the product? I don't think so.

As for a 'going rate'.... you figure out your own prices. Simply drop the lamp cost into your pricing matrix/spreadsheet and let the numbers do the talking. Just like you would with any other component. Since the LED lamps do cost more then the Halogen lamps they replace, there will of course be an increase in the cost of installation.

However, the operation of the system (electrically) and the it's maintenance costs will be greatly reduced, saving the client money in the long run.

I have posted on the cost benefit analysis of using LED lamps on this forum in the past... do a search of the topic.

Have a great day.

Chris J
09-09-2008, 10:40 PM
An automobile manufacturer doesn't expect their cars to be in the same shape in 20 years after normal operation, but at least they give you 5 and 10 year warranties. Nate Mullin describes warranties as death certificates. When the warranty is up, so shall be the useful life of the product.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-09-2008, 11:16 PM
To each their own I suppose.

There is no one model that will work universally for all products, I was trying to show a diverse group of comparisons.

Still, a two year warranty on a lamp with a useful life expectancy of 40,000 hours is better then no warranty on a lamp with a rated life expectancy of 4K-10K hours.

Many of the other LED lamps on the market have no warranty whatsoever.

JoeyD
09-10-2008, 11:40 AM
The difference is that when a lamp is rated for 4K hrs it may last 8K and if it fails at 2k your not all that angry because the lamp is $3-$6. But when spending $40-$50 per lamp and your expecting 20K-50K hrs out of it and it fails say inside of 10K which may be outside of the LUXXO 2 yr warranty you are going to be really upset. And more than likely you the installer will be the one who is out the cash because the homewoner is going to expect longer lamp life to go along with the higher price you charge them upfront for the LED system.

Now I am not going to argue that a 2 year warranty isnt better than no lamp warranty because we have people (manufacturers) in the past who tried to argue that our lifetime warranty isnt that becuase we dont warranty individual components....Which is a joke and lie we warranty our products FULLY regardless if a fuse holder or a thermister is to fail!! But a 2 yr warranty on a lamp that ideally should last 5-10 years really tells me that there is potential for failure and that the SIMULATED life span tests on these products yeilded areas of concern. Why wouldnt they give you a 5yr warranty?? But a little warranty is better than NO WARRANTY.

My feeling is, if I pay $40-$50 per lamp, I better get atleast 10 times the life over my $5 halogen lamp being that the lamp is roughly 10 times more in cost.

NiteTymeIlluminations
09-10-2008, 12:14 PM
the upfront cost is not the major expense of a lamp...

JoeyD
09-10-2008, 05:03 PM
I would assume that you would finish that sentence by saying that it is the replacement of the lamp over time that adds up? In which case my scenario I think still holds true.

Maybe I am not understanding what you are saying?

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-10-2008, 05:13 PM
Joey, from a manufacturers stand point on what is a 'consumable life' product...

What is to stop someone from putting the lamp into an application that operates 24 hours per day, 365 days per year. You have to admit that it is entirely possible this would happen. In that case they are offering a 17520 hour warranty, or roughly half of the rated life of the lamp.

In any case... I am going to stick with them. My clients like them, they are performing very well, and they are the future of lamp technology, available today.

Have a great day.

JoeyD
09-10-2008, 05:27 PM
although that is possible and a viable argument, it is not realistic for what we do in typical outdoor/landscape lighting. It is more likely to have that scenario in a commecial setting which is only a fraction of the low voltage market as of today. Cycling a unit on and off over and over will and does reduce the life of any lamp, and that is fact!

Although I wil agree that the LUXXO has been ONE OF the most impressive MR16 LED modules we have seen to date, the top contractors we have polled have said they would not utilize a lamp that has the extreme up front cost associated with it in their everyday residential lighting projects. Some said they would consider it in commercial and large high dollar residential but most dismissed it due to cost. Whether that is right or wrong is up to you to decide but we base most of OUR decisions by what the end user demands.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-10-2008, 07:45 PM
That's fine Joey... it isnt for everyone and I understand that... However,
the price that the Luxxo is currently being sold for, by my company in particular, is not exceptionally high when compared to the competition..., heck it is only a few bucks more then some of those 24 Volt lamps I have seen. I have illustrated in depth the bottom line benefits to the client and the installer in another thread.... time will of course be the proof.

Have a great day.

Chris J
09-10-2008, 09:11 PM
All agreeable statements, but these calculated cost savings for the LED are presumptuous. We can all do the math and sell a prospect on "potential savings", but what is reality? Have any of you (or even anyone you know) installed LEDs that are 20 years old? Let's have this conversation again in 40,000 hours.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-10-2008, 10:41 PM
Ok Chris... talk to you in 17 years or so! :laugh:

bmwsmity
09-10-2008, 11:21 PM
well boys, here in the next couple of weeks i'm gonna post up some pictures to illustrate what LED's can (hopefully) do.

i just sold a system that will have 70 LED accent lights from kichler, in addition to 32 Unique path lights.

i'm totally stoked to have won this, but i gotta say i'm a bit scared because i haven't seen the kichler LED accent lights in the real world yet.

from what you said about the deck lights you installed Chris, i'm thinking these will turn out great... have you (or anyone else) used the LED accents yet???

Chris J
09-11-2008, 06:03 AM
Yes, and you will like them. The only thing I'm having a problem with right now is a wide flood wall washer. Congrats on the job! Looking forward to seeing the pics.

Chris J
09-11-2008, 06:04 AM
Ok Chris... talk to you in 17 years or so! :laugh:

Do you really mean it? We don't have to talk again for 17 years?
Happy days really are here again! :)

bmwsmity
09-11-2008, 02:22 PM
Yes, and you will like them. The only thing I'm having a problem with right now is a wide flood wall washer. Congrats on the job! Looking forward to seeing the pics.

great to hear chris... thanks for the feedback... a bit nervous about pitching something new on this size project.

fraggle
09-11-2008, 09:02 PM
i asked for going rates to see what "curve " contractors might be using just to see what the average is --not to get concrete numbers and if this forum is not the place to do it then where is? and as far the the "Warranty" i posted its because if I tell a customer the average life expectancy of a bulb is 50 K and it lasts 6k who looks like the idiot ..... which means i would eat the cost because I would have to replace the lamp in order to save face....and again i realize the cost of the system varies with the numbers .. and the led system saves with labor, transformer cost, less wire, etc... its still nice to bounce some numbers around with contractors in the industry.. and because this is so new and nobody really knows until the numbers are "added up" how are we going to "help" each other?????? :hammerhead:

fraggle
09-11-2008, 09:12 PM
So you think that a 2 year warranty on a lamp is a little odd? In comparison to what other lamp manufacturer? What warranty does GE or Ushio give on their lamps? What warranty does Xelogen give on their long life lamps?

In another example... fixtures. Fixtures are warrantied for all sorts of different time lines. 3yrs, 5yrs, 10yrs, etc... it doesn't mean that the manufacturer doesn't fully expect the product to last longer then the warranty! Does an Automaker warranty their vehicles for the expected full useful life of the product? I don't think so.

As for a 'going rate'.... you figure out your own prices. Simply drop the lamp cost into your pricing matrix/spreadsheet and let the numbers do the talking. Just like you would with any other component. Since the LED lamps do cost more then the Halogen lamps they replace, there will of course be an increase in the cost of installation.

However, the operation of the system (electrically) and the it's maintenance costs will be greatly reduced, saving the client money in the long run.

I have posted on the cost benefit analysis of using LED lamps on this forum in the past... do a search of the topic.

Have a great day.

its not about the warranty its about telling your client that something that is going to cost 5 x's the cost is "supposed " to last 10-15x's longer and it doesn't then what?? you eat it .... especially if its a good client ...what i'm saying its a fine line to walk right now so, should we factor that into our pricing just in case??? your analogy to a car is ridiculous....

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-11-2008, 09:33 PM
My point was simply that many consumable products have warranties that do not come close to covering the full expected life of the product. I apologize if my analogy was not up to snuff...

Keep searching the marketplace and find a lamp warranty that is better then the Luxxo's. I haven't found it yet.

As for walking a "fine line" as you put it... I have a back up plan so to speak. I have been designing and installing all of my systems to be fully functional with old school Halogen lamps. That means full sized transformers and circuits. Then if the LEDs turn out to be a complete and total failure, I can simply pop in the incandescents and move along.

So far so good with the LED lamps though. They really are well designed, engineered and built. As for the manufactuer; They are a very big opeation in SE Asia.... With an excellent team of engineers and a history of great manufacturing and technological "firsts". This is not some "no-name" fly by night operation out of China.

Don't just take my word for it... check them out for yourself. Order a single unit as a sample and install it at home.

Have a great day.

Chris J
09-11-2008, 10:10 PM
i asked for going rates to see what "curve " contractors might be using just to see what the average is --not to get concrete numbers and if this forum is not the place to do it then where is? and as far the the "Warranty" i posted its because if I tell a customer the average life expectancy of a bulb is 50 K and it lasts 6k who looks like the idiot ..... which means i would eat the cost because I would have to replace the lamp in order to save face....and again i realize the cost of the system varies with the numbers .. and the led system saves with labor, transformer cost, less wire, etc... its still nice to bounce some numbers around with contractors in the industry.. and because this is so new and nobody really knows until the numbers are "added up" how are we going to "help" each other?????? :hammerhead:

You want a number, ok. Add 50% to your normal rate for LED, and that should cover you nicely. As for your comment about where to talk about pricing, you could try joining the AOLP and visit the private site. Or you could PM someone and see if they might be willing to share some info with you. Everyone's prices are different based upon their region, cost of living, cost of materials, EXPERIENCE, overhead, etc. A simple calculator will help you well. Just add up your costs including your cost to operate your business, and then add the amount of profit you wish to make and there you go! That's the price you should charge! :dizzy: :gunsfirin

David Gretzmier
09-11-2008, 10:35 PM
As far as "popping in a halogen and moving on" you are asuming the client will let you do that? If you charge more for a LED than a halogen, and in 3 years they fail like crazy, and you pop in the halogen, shouldn't you refund the premium the customer paid? I would feel obligated to pay them the difference between LED and halogen if I switched them back. James, if you have installed 750 plus of these, and I assume you charge 20 bucks more ( and it may be higher) you have a potential warranty refund sitting out there of 15 grand or so today. no failures, fine, all you gave up was the rebulb revenue from yearly maintenance.

I just cannot get on board with these things as this years LED is not the one you used last year, and next years is different still. there is no long term data for these things out there, so that comes with a pretty big financial risk. plus the loss of future bulb revenue for 17 years.

fraggle
09-11-2008, 11:27 PM
I like led's i do believe they are a great product, we also do holiday lighting, we've been using led c-9 bulbs for 3 years...Now led c-9 bulbs cost anywhere from 10 - 15 x's the cost of reg incandes bulbs... We invested in the c-9 bulbs because of the low power draw, being able to run many more lights on the same circuit...On the other hand within 1 year most bulbs were defective because they got water inside the bulbs..So, there is no warranty but the manufact. told us to send them back and they credited everyone we sent back. So, that's why I ask if the manufac. will back their products I guess time will tell. The lux mr 16 led warm white looks great I already popped them into a couple of cast fixtures and they look great .

We have a meeting set up with the national and factory reps next week for a couple of lighting manufac. i will share the info with you guys after the meeting.

INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting
09-12-2008, 07:58 AM
David, honestly my clients are not buying lamps, fixtures or any other components from me. They are buying lighting systems. Systems of light that make their properties more attractive, safer and more secure. Ultimately my clients are not so concerned with what lamp I use. They want the system to look great and work night after night, something I can guarantee them will happen no matter what. The details are mine to worry about.

As for your comment about "this years LED is not the one used last year..." Have you never switched products as you have discovered better products to do the job? All forms of technology seem to constantly evolve and improve, it doesn't mean that last year's computer will not function properly and do the job, only that this years is better, faster, stronger etc.

You seem stuck on the fact that you will loose the relatively small net profit you get from selling replacement lamps. not sure of your operations but around here it is a relatively small number. AND you are not loosing out on 100% of service as there are many other lamps used in a system and other things that need regular maintenance.... you still get to see the clients on a regular basis.

You stick with incandescent and I will move forward with LED... See you in the future as I am pretty sure that LED will be the way we end up going.

bmwsmity
09-12-2008, 09:02 AM
An interesting thing to think about is that all trucks must have LED signals by 2010 by law.

If LED was a technology that is still as unknown and risky as some people on here are making it out to be, I doubt their would be laws requiring its usage.

Granted, LEDs on trucks are much different than LEDs in landscape lighting, but the basic technology of solid state lighting with no filaments to break is the same.

For now, I'm just using Kichler, as they are a huge company that I know will back up their products. Any time I've complained about issues before with their products, they've always helped me out and kept me happy, so if they claim 40,000 hours, I'm not worried about them dying in a few years - and they have a 10 year warranty.

As for loss of bulb revenue, we're talking maybe 3-4 bucks a bulb once every couple of years... hardly enough to justify being an anti-innovation company.

The best approach IMO is to give clients an option. Let them know it's a new technology, tell them the downsides and the benefits, tell them about the manufacturer's claims - but that these claims aren't proven, then let THEM decide for themselves...but at least give them a choice, because not doing so is not fair to them and makes you look like a dinosaur compared to more innovative competitors (like me).

Just my two cents.