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hdbluedeuce
02-26-2006, 10:49 PM
We began installing a paver patio this weekend and I need some advice. The total area will be about 700 sq. ft., at the longest point, the shape is about 23 feet and the widest point is about 30 feet across.

We began by finding our beginning elevations (patio has to tie into three given elevations; driveway, sidewalk to pool, and door to garage). We next figured our slope front to back and side to side to get our finished elevations around the perimeter. Next we used 4" metal edging (this will be the outside band/restraint for the pavers) and set this around the entire perimeter and established the correct elevations around the entire perimeter on top of the 4" metal edging. We then rough graded the interior area (inside of the edging perimeter). Pulling a string line from any point on the edging to another side we have anywhere from 3.5" - 4.5" from the string line (or top of the edging, which is the final grade) to the natural ground. Our pavers are approximately 2" thick.

Now for the main question, I want the final elevation of the base course (sand) to be 2" below the top of the metal edging, so that the pavers will sit flush or slightly higher than the metal edging. Since it is too far across from one side to the other to use a long 2"x4" to screed the base material to the finished elevation, what is the easiest way to do this?

Thanks for your help.
Deuce

cgland
02-26-2006, 10:55 PM
First of all, that is one of the worst, most time consuming ways of grading a base, but with that being said, if you have graded properly you should be able to lay a 1"od pipe on your base and screed off of it.

Chris

Dirty Water
02-26-2006, 11:03 PM
Since it is too far across from one side to the other to use a long 2"x4" to screed the base material to the finished elevation, what is the easiest way to do this?


Back in my concrete days, when we were pouring a slab that was too large to rod (screed) off at once, we would divide it up into sections using stakes and 8' metal bar (or a stringline).

neversatisfiedj
02-27-2006, 08:29 AM
Get a laser and a rod and you can use rebar or rods and set elevations with them. You can make the top of the rod as a reference to the top of the sand or aggregate , your choice.

landscapingpoolguy
02-27-2006, 03:35 PM
Well string line all your final elevations very tight because any slack will change yur final hieghts. I always use 18- 24" rebar and string lines. No tricks. Mearsure from the dirt to yur string line and subtract one inch. That should be compacted 34-, qp whatever yur using, for base. I ll keep it damp and keep compacting untill its almost as smooth as troweled cement. Then I use 1" schd 40pvc pipes on top of that base.srceed over the pipes with yur 2x4 and try to get an aluminum screed so yur not checking for bowed 2x4's. Youll need about 20 pipes so that ya dont move any untill eveything is all screeded. I go against ICPI rules and I compact my sand bed with the pipes on the base then go back and rescreed any imperfections before removing the pipes and filling in there void and laying pavers. ICPI passes off the no compacted bedding sand as good drainage. I prefer to direct my water to where the pitch intends it to go. Hope this helps.

Chuck

cgland
02-27-2006, 05:45 PM
You shouldn't compact your bedding sand because you will not be able to achieve interlock. After all, the sand gets compacted when you vibrate the pavers in!:dizzy:

chris

landscapingpoolguy
02-27-2006, 06:08 PM
I use stabalized jointing sand in every applictaion to get the lock. Tons of sweeping and washing in . Never one failure yet. What I have gotten from compacting pavers is low spots dips etc. Its much more dificultto go back and liftthe pavers and fix them rather then set everything perfect from the begining. I know this will start a problem but this is how Ive been doin it for years . Never a failure. So Ill go with what works.

landscapingpoolguy
02-27-2006, 06:11 PM
BTW this was a big discussion in the icpi course. It was on the test too. I know what they mean but I know how well my bases are made. We spend alot of time making this perfect. Ive seen too many compactors set paver uneven.

YardPro
02-27-2006, 08:02 PM
I use stabalized jointing sand in every applictaion to get the lock. Tons of sweeping and washing in . Never one failure yet. What I have gotten from compacting pavers is low spots dips etc. Its much more dificultto go back and liftthe pavers and fix them rather then set everything perfect from the begining. I know this will start a problem but this is how Ive been doin it for years . Never a failure. So Ill go with what works.

this not an accepted icpi installation procedure... it will also void any manufacturers warranties..

You will never have any dips.. etc from not pre compacting the sand... that comes from the base below the sand..

the aggregate base must be within 3/8" over 10 feet of pertfectly straight.. it's called " piping the base"

if you do this you will never have any problems. If you compact the sand first there is no paver set into the sand, so your whole paver slab could potentially slide on your sand base.

YardPro
02-27-2006, 08:04 PM
to the origional poster... go to
www.belgard.biz

you can download thier install manual.

landscapingpoolguy
02-27-2006, 10:35 PM
My question is Why would I need a manufacturers warranty? If i see a problem with the paver the rep will be there before the paver even hit the sand. The benifit to doing this, and I just want people to think outside of the box on this one, because I am certified and all and I have been doing this for a long time before certifying became an issue, but the benifit to this here is to sheet the water away from the base. FOR EXAMPLE In a highway what causees pot holes in the winter? water seeing its way into the base either from the ground side or from the top side, finding air pockets and freezing and thawing, expending and contracting, evenetually causing a pothole. OK now the reason we compact is to build a soild strong base and by doing so to eliminate air pockets from the base material. And this is where ICPI needs to realize that in different parts of the country things work differently and there needs to be different methods of accepted practice. Ok so lets say I screed my sand which has moisture and air in it, and this causes the material to expand, and I lay a paver on top without compacting, and I compact that brick into the sand. I now trap air and moisture between the sand and the paver. once that moisture freezes its going to cause a void in the base and a failure of the surface. Im not telling people to go against what the almighty ICPI says. Im just saying that in some cases we need to think outside the box on things. Becuase I disagreed with a part of a method of installation does not make me a bad contractor. If im comfortable installing how I install and have been for many years and its my name and reputation on the line with every job, then I will do it how I want. Beleieve me ICPI is never goin to be there to back you up in a fairlure and push it on the manufacturer, and the manufacturer is goin to tell you the complete opposite of what you want to hear, and in the it will always cost you the contractor money to replace and resolve issues if its still under the warrantied time frame. These surfaces are not designed to last forever. They are designed to be an easier repair in the even of setteling, time weather etc etc. I hope Ive made my point clear and I hope everyone can take my advice with a grain a salt and do what you want with it.God Bless

landscapingpoolguy
02-27-2006, 10:38 PM
My question is Why would I need a manufacturers warranty? If i see a problem with the paver the rep will be there before the paver even hit the sand. The benifit to doing this, and I just want people to think outside of the box on this one, because I am certified and all and I have been doing this for a long time before certifying became an issue, but the benifit to this here is to sheet the water away from the base. FOR EXAMPLE In a highway what causees pot holes in the winter? water seeing its way into the base either from the ground side or from the top side, finding air pockets and freezing and thawing, expending and contracting, evenetually causing a pothole. OK now the reason we compact is to build a soild strong base and by doing so to eliminate air pockets from the base material. And this is where ICPI needs to realize that in different parts of the country things work differently and there needs to be different methods of accepted practice. Ok so lets say I screed my sand which has moisture and air in it, and this causes the material to expand, and I lay a paver on top without compacting, and I compact that brick into the sand. I now trap air and moisture between the sand and the paver. once that moisture freezes its going to cause a void in the base and a failure of the surface. Im not telling people to go against what the almighty ICPI says. Im just saying that in some cases we need to think outside the box on things. Becuase I disagreed with a part of a method of installation does not make me a bad contractor. If im comfortable installing how I install and have been for many years and its my name and reputation on the line with every job, then I will do it how I want. Beleieve me ICPI is never goin to be there to back you up in a fairlure and push it on the manufacturer, and the manufacturer is goin to tell you the complete opposite of what you want to hear, and in the it will always cost you the contractor money to replace and resolve issues if its still under the warrantied time frame. These surfaces are not designed to last forever. They are designed to be an easier repair in the even of setteling, time weather etc etc. I hope Ive made my point clear and I hope everyone can take my advice with a grain a salt and do what you want with it.God Bless

Drafto
02-27-2006, 11:46 PM
My question is Why would I need a manufacturers warranty? If i see a problem with the paver the rep will be there before the paver even hit the sand. The benifit to doing this, and I just want people to think outside of the box on this one, because I am certified and all and I have been doing this for a long time before certifying became an issue, but the benifit to this here is to sheet the water away from the base. FOR EXAMPLE In a highway what causees pot holes in the winter? water seeing its way into the base either from the ground side or from the top side, finding air pockets and freezing and thawing, expending and contracting, evenetually causing a pothole. OK now the reason we compact is to build a soild strong base and by doing so to eliminate air pockets from the base material. And this is where ICPI needs to realize that in different parts of the country things work differently and there needs to be different methods of accepted practice. Ok so lets say I screed my sand which has moisture and air in it, and this causes the material to expand, and I lay a paver on top without compacting, and I compact that brick into the sand. I now trap air and moisture between the sand and the paver. once that moisture freezes its going to cause a void in the base and a failure of the surface. Im not telling people to go against what the almighty ICPI says. Im just saying that in some cases we need to think outside the box on things. Becuase I disagreed with a part of a method of installation does not make me a bad contractor. If im comfortable installing how I install and have been for many years and its my name and reputation on the line with every job, then I will do it how I want. Beleieve me ICPI is never goin to be there to back you up in a fairlure and push it on the manufacturer, and the manufacturer is goin to tell you the complete opposite of what you want to hear, and in the it will always cost you the contractor money to replace and resolve issues if its still under the warrantied time frame. These surfaces are not designed to last forever. They are designed to be an easier repair in the even of setteling, time weather etc etc. I hope Ive made my point clear and I hope everyone can take my advice with a grain a salt and do what you want with it.God Bless

I am not backing you up on this one but I have to admit you have me thinking. I totally disagree with you on the moisture and air heaving theory. Once you compact your final grade of 2A and you start to screed sand you are only filling vertical voids in the 2A with sand. When you place your pavers and start compacting you are shaking that sand, vertically, horizontally, it is going everywhere it can before it gets pressed up between the pavers, levaing some room for settlement. If this makes no sense to someone maybe I can post a sketch or something. So anyway..............never mind. I just realized while I was typing there would be no way to control thickness when compacting a layer of sand before final screeding. You are back on your own landscapingpoolguy, I tried.

Dan

cgland
02-28-2006, 12:20 AM
This is exactly my beef with certifying bodies. As you can see, any ****** can become certified, yet REFUSE to adhere to the rules and techniques that they became certified in. I don't care how much water you are trying to direct! Pavers allow 98% run-off as is, and you think that if it doesn't run-off over the pavers, your "compacted" setting bed will catch the rest and allow it to flow with your pitch?!?!? You are dumber than I ever imagined.
So, in summation, you take the info provided to you by ICPI (an organization that spends millions on R&D) and totaly re-engineer the paving system, on your own, to satisfy this crazy idea of yours that pavers will allow more run-off if you pre-compact your setting bed! RRRIIIGGGHHTTT!:dizzy: :hammerhead: ;)

Chris

landscapingpoolguy
02-28-2006, 08:29 AM
What Im saying is in my mind it makes more sence. Its kinda like when pouring a cement slab do you use fiber reinforced or conrete mesh or both? You do it how you want and what sto code and hopefully youve done it before and it all works out in the end. An by the way cg-land it shows your true level professionalism when you have to result in calling people names instead of having an intellectual conversion. Please reread you ICPI guide where there is a disclaimer that states ICPI is in no way shape or form setting the standard for the methods of installation of paver surfaces and waivers there resonsibilities as educators. Ill quote the page later on after returning from estimates.

YardPro
03-01-2006, 08:42 PM
i also say that you are wrong..
you should compact the base.. it will be solid with NO voids for the sand to work into. the surface of the aggregate base will have enough fines to fill any voids. Compacted base looks as smooth as concrete. if you compact the pavers after laying them on loose sand, you will have the same amount of compaction of the sand that is under the pavers. The difference is that sand will be forced up between the pavers and create an interlock..

Also your theory about shedding water does not fly becuase you stated earlier that you use poly sand. Pavers with poly sand have almost 100% runoff.

Pavers Plus
04-13-2006, 06:51 PM
I have to think that running a plate compactor on top of sand will cause more height problems than compacting the pavers...... I personally experimented with pre-compaction sand for below slabs like Hanover's Slate Face, only to find that the compactor did more pushing and smushing of sand. My advice on pre-compaction is only for slabs installations and in doing so, I'd also suggest taking a 1/2" - 3/8" slotted trowel to loosen the sand slightly to allow the slab to sit without rocking....... This worked for me with slabs.....

That being said, I would never pre-compact the sand for a paver installation.....the whole purpose is to force up the sand to create interlock ......it is tough as hell sometimes to get sand to go through the joints of some of these pavers that don't have spacer nubs on them.....heck, it's tough sometimes with pavers that have spacers, so how sure are you that the joints are actually full from top to bottom...... I'm not saying your installations are going to fail if you precompact, just not something I'd recommend or do myself.

neversatisfiedj
04-14-2006, 08:46 AM
BTW - I installed Belagrd pavers for the first time last week , 6x6,6x9 "I" pattern. All of the 6x6's were about an 1/8 off in height !! The worst. The last thing you want after taking the time to make a perfect base is have to ammend it to accept a thinner paver. The last time I will use Belgard. I will stick with Hanover - never a peoblem. Ahh I feel better. LOL

orionkf
04-15-2006, 02:46 AM
First of all, that is one of the worst, most time consuming ways of grading a base, but with that being said, if you have graded properly you should be able to lay a 1"od pipe on your base and screed off of it.

Chris


Just out of curiousity, what is considered the best way to grade your base, sans laser level?


Another question: Not to stir the pot or take sides, but when you sand your joints, doesn't that create the desired interlock, granted from the top rather than the bottom? I don't know, so any enlightenment would be appreciated. (Note: I never compact my sand.)

cgland
04-16-2006, 09:20 AM
"The best way to grade your base" is a subjective statement. There are many ways to grade a base, the important thing is 98% proctor and no undulations greater than 1/4". I get my base close with a laser then I screed it off with a mag screed board. You can also use string lines to get close.

Chris

kris
04-16-2006, 10:13 AM
The ol' Compacting sand arguments .....

I have before...why? Because I didn't Know any better.

Over the years the only reason I have seen for doing this is because there was imperfections in the gravel base and that is a very bad reason for doing it.

I don't understand the theory that compacting it will allow the water to drain.

The only time that I would compact sand now is if I was laying 2' x 2' concrete slabs.


All this being said .... we use polymeric sand on all residential installs. They (the sand suppliers) recommend that the sand gets to the bottom of the joint .. well, when I am compacting, the bedding sand is being forced up which may not allow enough depth for the polymeric..... any thoughts on this?

zedosix
04-16-2006, 03:48 PM
[QUOTE=landscapingpoolguy]I use stabalized jointing sand in every applictaion to get the lock. Tons of sweeping and washing in . QUOTE]

Stabilizing sand should be swept in the joints and only a light mist applied thereafter. Washing in defeats the purpose.

Techo-Bloc
04-18-2006, 01:24 AM
this not an accepted icpi installation procedure... it will also void any manufacturers warranties..

You will never have any dips.. etc from not pre compacting the sand... that comes from the base below the sand..

the aggregate base must be within 3/8" over 10 feet of pertfectly straight.. it's called " piping the base"

if you do this you will never have any problems. If you compact the sand first there is no paver set into the sand, so your whole paver slab could potentially slide on your sand base.

Question??? What does the installation procedure have to do with the warranty of a pavingstone??? In a normal application,If the base is installed incorrectly, does it effect the over all integrity of the paver vs a properly installed base??? your thoughts

-Jason