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mrkosar
03-01-2006, 02:05 AM
is it possible to purchase hundreds of live earthworms and spread them out in a yard to help aerate. Do you need thousands or a million for this to work? I know it is more efficient to aerate the lawn and apply compost, but i was just wondering if this would help? What exactly are worm castings?

sheshovel
03-01-2006, 02:35 AM
Well they have to have certain conditions to survive.Ya can't just throw them out on a yard and expect them to live.
Worm castings are worm poop.

nocutting
03-01-2006, 09:09 AM
is it possible to purchase hundreds of live earthworms and spread them out in a yard to help aerate. Do you need thousands or a million for this to work? I know it is more efficient to aerate the lawn and apply compost, but i was just wondering if this would help? What exactly are worm castings?
Hello, Red Wigglers seem to work the "Best"..........Why would you want worm castings?..........Healthy soil has worms......an indication of organic matter......Worm casting are the "End Result", right the worm poop.......to many worms can ruin a good soil, by depleting the organic matter essential to Healthy Soil.......Worm Casting dont equate to other manures, while adding them to a hard soil helps to loosen it as does gypsum, it [ the casting] have very little neutrient value.........my money's with the Pig Farmers:cool2:

upidstay
03-01-2006, 03:22 PM
There are companies that sell worms in qty. A friend of mine bought a few thousand of them a number of years ago. She and her husband were going into the compost and bait business. I would just try Googling "earth worms" and see where that takes you.

sheshovel
03-01-2006, 05:01 PM
I do not agree
worm castings are great soil enhancers

muddstopper
03-01-2006, 07:09 PM
www.AdvancedPrairie.com

They sell a worm egg?? product for establishing earthworms in your soil.

My understanding of adding earthworms is that in order to have good results, the worms need to be born at the site. Worms live out their lives in their burrows, eating their way thru the soil. Placing adult worms in the soil usually results in death of the worms since they dont have their burrows to live in. they cant just dig new homes over nite.

Dont take my word on this because I am just repeating what I have heard.

Prolawnservice
03-02-2006, 12:27 AM
Not all worms are the same, some need homes and others just sort of roam around eatin organic matter. Lots of info out there here is a good site http://www.wormman.com/ I got my red wigglers there, they recycle my kitchen scraps.

nocutting
03-02-2006, 08:26 AM
I do not agree
worm castings are great soil enhancers
Talk to any Composting Operation, there are limits to everything........"The Soil Food Web"....does all our testing......they are a reconized industry testing lab [ international]..........if you feel the need pick up the phone,talk to Paul.........[ in NY]........"Listen Lady"......1-3 grubs per sq ft is a liveable tolerance, more than that and its time for a Benificial Release.........:headphones:

NattyLawn
03-02-2006, 10:17 AM
Nocutting...Are we talking about a lawn or a composting operation? I believe worm castings don't have the most nutrient value, but do have a lot of micronutrients that other composted manures do not have. I don't follow the Soil Food Web remarks either, as they have worm casting links all over their website and literature. Why the grub reference?
I'm not expecting an answer because you still haven't answered the question about not aerating your tea and the anaerobic bacteria involved.

nocutting
03-03-2006, 02:37 AM
Nocutting...Are we talking about a lawn or a composting operation? I believe worm castings don't have the most nutrient value, but do have a lot of micronutrients that other composted manures do not have. I don't follow the Soil Food Web remarks either, as they have worm casting links all over their website and literature. Why the grub reference?
I'm not expecting an answer because you still haven't answered the question about not aerating your tea and the anaerobic bacteria involved.
Matt, lets start at the end......teas, some aerated, some not.......teas, some for composting, some for foliar applications [ not all teas are created equally or for the same purpose]........Matt who are the people that push the aerated teas? [ for the most part].......lol, the guys selling the fancy tea brew systems..........Matt just cause a tea isnt aerated doesnt mean it lacks anaerobic bacteria........and did I ever say I never aerate any teas? ever?.....Me, like most of you guys probably started out the same way, probably didnt know you could have a well balanced tea if it wasnt aerated, probably didnt realize there was a differance in teas or they had differnt purposes?..........Matt, as a Lawn/ Landscape Professional, which kind of tea would be most benificial in your day to day operations?............and why?......Matt when you say you dont follow the Soil Food Webs remarks, whats the basis of that remark?[ your opionion?, scientific fact? not what your employer wants you to believe?]....they are a Internationally reconized soil testing lab with the highest credentials........Matt, doesnt it trouble in the slightest that a lot of the "tea"info is released by people that never really ever use it, [ but build and sell brewers?]..........Again, I'm not sure where you are comeing from, I've been releaseing Benificial Insects, & bacteria since the early 80's..........done field studies under the guidance of a plant pathologist, entomologist and soil scientist.....projects not funded by any chemial giant, but of actual properties under my care [and not in a vacume, but out in the field]..........IPM / OPM.....regarding the grubs?......just cause a soil has them, do they have to be eradicated?.........Worms, sure a few are great, but an abundance is lethal to a healty soil [ weather its on a lawn or a compost facility].......Matt if your going to give "US" your "Beliefs or Opionions", it may be to your best intrest to spend $15 bucks for a rapid tester, and look into "castings", or better yet, take [3] 4x4 ft areas and start your own testing, I'd luv to hear your results?...............Just like to apologize, to anyone who stumbled in to this topic, and didnt realize it was the setting for the "OK" corral................Matt, just "PM" me if I miss something that you feel is important, and I'll do my best to get on it, Regards to all, Saxon:dancing:

muddstopper
03-03-2006, 08:23 AM
Why do you two get in a peeing contest on every subject that is posted?

Try posting factual information from reliable sources instead of trying to prove that one or the other is dummer than a box a rocks and we all might learn something.

NattyLawn
03-03-2006, 10:10 AM
Why do you two get in a peeing contest on every subject that is posted?

Try posting factual information from reliable sources instead of trying to prove that one or the other is dummer than a box a rocks and we all might learn something.


I'm not trying to get into a "peeing contest" with anyone...Some of Nocuttings posts are tough to follow sometimes, and I wanted clarification. If it seems like I'm busting someones balls, I'm not trying to. If my questions give us clearer answers (to me anyway), it's so ALL OF US CAN LEARN SOMETHING......

livingsoils
03-03-2006, 06:49 PM
I have used both types of teas and they both work well :dancing: . My thoughts on teas are that non-aerated teas work well in delivering nutrients to the plants while the aerate teas are excellent breeding grounds for microbes. I think they both have their place in the lawn care business.
I would also agree that tea brewing companies are taking advantage of the new wave in the "organic" industry. They are here to make money, why else would they try to sell you a little bag of their "special blend" for $30 for their tea brewer. Teas have been used for 100's of years without aeration with great success. :) Now tea brewing companies tell us that you need to have specific air pressure going into the brewer to take the microbes off the side of the brewer, and if you use any old air pump you will kill the microbes and even brew "bad ones" that could kill your plant! That is why you should buy ours because we have put millions of $ into researching acceptable air pressure and other trade secrets. :nono:
I think cleanliness is key to a good brew. I have seen many brewers that probably have never been cleaned since the day they have been out of the box, that is where you get your "bad ones," not from air pressure.
As for the soil food web. I think they are the pioneers in teas and they have done a lot of research in the tea industry. You can't just refute their work because you don't like them. I don't necessarily agree with everything they say, but you have to give them some recognition. :clapping:

Mike :drinkup:

muddstopper
03-04-2006, 08:37 AM
There are benefitual anaerobic microbs as well as arobic microbes, (yea I know my spelling sucks), It depends on what effect you want with your teas.

Teas can be a good source of nutrients and microbs but they dont add organic matter to the soil. Tests have shown that teas made from manures will provide plenty of nutrients and microbs, but that organic matter in the soil doesnot change significantly unless the whole manure is applied to the soil. Good or Bad? This depends on the organic content in the soil that the applications are being made to. If you have good organic matter percentages in the soil , yet the microbes have been killed off due to chemical applications, then teas would be the way to go. On the other hand, if your soil is low in organic matter, then teas might provide a quick boost to the soils microbiology, but without the organic material the boost will be short lived. In these cases of low organic matter, you would be better off applying the complete composted material instead of just the tea. You get the same microbes either way.

I dont know this for sure, but I feel the reason you get so many different opinions on the teas and their effectiveness is simply because of the organic matter contained in the soils they are being applied to. If you have good organic matter, and it hasnt been harmed by heavy chemical applications, chances are that you already have a pretty good population of soil microbes. In cases like that, the results would seem great simply because you are suppling nutrients for the already present microbes to feed on. In soils with damaged organic material, the teas will supply missing microbes and the results would also be pretty good. . On soils with low or no organic material, the teas would supply microbes that would provide a quick greening up of the plants, but without the organic matter the results could/would only be temporary at best.

livingsoils
03-04-2006, 10:22 AM
Exactly! that is my point, both types of teas DO work! But if you listen to Tea brewer companies they will tell you the opposite, you can only use aerated teas to have benefits. That is totally false! But people listen to the tea companies.

Mike

NattyLawn
03-04-2006, 11:03 AM
Exactly! that is my point, both types of teas DO work! But if you listen to Tea brewer companies they will tell you the opposite, you can only use aerated teas to have benefits. That is totally false! But people listen to the tea companies.

Mike

I did a search on the net for unaerated tea and nothing comes up. Most point you to the Soil Food Web where Dr. Ingham says unaerated tea has too much anaerobic bacteria that's not benefical, but harmful to the soil and plants. I do know there is some benefical anaerobic bacteria.

Mudd...Now, if you have a customer on a 4 or 5 step organic fertilizer program, and add tea apps as a supplement, would this be sufficient in building enough organic matter for microbe survival?

dKoester
03-04-2006, 12:46 PM
A large population of worms can encourage moles to come to the lawn.

livingsoils
03-04-2006, 01:08 PM
I did a search on the net for unaerated tea and nothing comes up. Most point you to the Soil Food Web where Dr. Ingham says unaerated tea has too much anaerobic bacteria that's not benefical, but harmful to the soil and plants. I do know there is some benefical anaerobic bacteria.

Rodale institute has been the leader in composting and using teas in trials for years. They recommend both types of teas. They have found that the ingredients and cleanliness are what breeds bad microbes not the way the tea is brewed. They have found both "passive" and aerated teas give good results.
As I said earlier passive teas work well in delivering nutrients to the plants because it it is in a water soluble form and the plants can immediately use it. The nutrients are extracted from the compost using the passive method. We (mankind) have been using passive teas since the start of farming and have had good results. I personally use both types of teas but wanted to make sure passive teas don't get a bad wrap.
I would recommend going to Rodale and looking around and visiting the book store they have great books to get info from. The Rodale Guide to Composting is a great book.

muddstopper
03-04-2006, 08:41 PM
Mudd...Now, if you have a customer on a 4 or 5 step organic fertilizer program, and add tea apps as a supplement, would this be sufficient in building enough organic matter for microbe survival?

I think that would depend on the organic fertilizer. I assume you are talking about the CGM, Alfalfa, etc. The microbes need the organic material to feed on and if you are adding organic matter and teas, unless something is wrong with the materials you are using you should have pretty good results.

I have mentioned this before, but your organic materials are only as good as the soil they came from. If the soil the organics where grown on had certain nutrient deficiencies, then the organic plant material that came from that soil will be deficent in those same nutrients. For every nutrient that is deficient in the soil, there will be another nutrient that there is to much of.

muddstopper
03-04-2006, 08:55 PM
Table 1 Nutrient concentrations in municipal leaves (dry weight basis).
Nutrient- Minimum- Maximum -Average -Average-Concentration %-Lb.ton

Carbon 36 52 47 940

Nitrogen 0.66 1.62 1.00 20.0

Phosphorous (P2O5) 0.02 (0.05) 0.29 (0.66) 0.1 (0.23)
2.0 (4.6)
Potassium (K2O) 0.09 (0.11) 0.88 (1.06) 0.38 (0.46)
7.6 (9.1)
Calcium 0.13 3.04 1.64 32.8

Magnesium 0.02 0.46 0.24 4.8

Sulfur 0.01 0.21 0.11 2.2

Nutrient Parts per million Lb/ton

Boron 7 72 38 0.076

Iron 46 9800 1461 2.922

Manganese 19 1845 550 1.100

Zinc 22 392 81 0.162

Sodium 36 325 110 0.220

Chlorine 68 3995 1264 2.528

Copper 2.8 31.5 8.1 0.016

Cobalt 0.9 10.9 2.7 0.005

Nickel 1.1 57.9 5.3 0.0106

Durn chart dont want to paste right

nocutting
03-05-2006, 05:43 PM
I have used both types of teas and they both work well :dancing: . My thoughts on teas are that non-aerated teas work well in delivering nutrients to the plants while the aerate teas are excellent breeding grounds for microbes. I think they both have their place in the lawn care business.
I would also agree that tea brewing companies are taking advantage of the new wave in the "organic" industry. They are here to make money, why else would they try to sell you a little bag of their "special blend" for $30 for their tea brewer. Teas have been used for 100's of years without aeration with great success. :) Now tea brewing companies tell us that you need to have specific air pressure going into the brewer to take the microbes off the side of the brewer, and if you use any old air pump you will kill the microbes and even brew "bad ones" that could kill your plant! That is why you should buy ours because we have put millions of $ into researching acceptable air pressure and other trade secrets. :nono:
I think cleanliness is key to a good brew. I have seen many brewers that probably have never been cleaned since the day they have been out of the box, that is where you get your "bad ones," not from air pressure.
As for the soil food web. I think they are the pioneers in teas and they have done a lot of research in the tea industry. You can't just refute their work because you don't like them. I don't necessarily agree with everything they say, but you have to give them some recognition. :clapping:

Mike :drinkup:
Hello Mike, thanks for takeing the time to post in this forum........its Great to see that you covered all the topics / problems i seem to have gotten myself into with Matt.........Thanks Again, regards Saxon:usflag:

livingsoils
03-05-2006, 07:56 PM
Just trying to get some miss conceptions cleared up.:dancing:
I was talking to a friend who works in the tea industry and there are some new and exciting things coming out in the near future. I can't wait!!