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MMLawn
03-02-2006, 04:34 PM
You know I guess with many years in business I should have known this. Maybe I really deep down inside did know it happens and just couldn't bring myself to accept it though so my mind played tricks on me so I wouldn't accept such.

Today I learned that not all the MowJoes are the guys with the beat up Murrays in the trunk or the beat up Sears lawn tractor on an old homemade wooden trailer. NOPE. Some of them are ones that we think are "respectable businesses".

I know this guy that is a local small LCO. It is just him and a couple of part-ime employees. As a person he is very respected among those that know him (or so we thought). He does full service (full mowing and landscape maintenance plus full fert & squirt) residential and commercial accounts, but again on a small scale. He drives a newer very nice 1/2 ton pickup, has a nice 16' trailer, uses only the very best commercial mowers, trimmers, blowers and edgers. Owns his own WB aerator, uses a brand name spreader and ferts, and has a spray rig.

Sounds fine right? Yep, and that's what I always thought.

BUT, today I learn and verify that he is NOT Licensed by the State as an Applicator, does NOT have any business licenses, and has NO insurance......AND pays his employees completely in cash and "under the table" and pays no taxes or FICA/SS, Unemployment or Worker Comp on them.......as far as taxes on himself and his business well that I can only assume, but given the above that I know is true.....well you guess.....

Rich's LS
03-02-2006, 04:40 PM
Wow....:nono: He's asking for trouble in a big way... Sounds like he has way to much to lose if he get's caught.. That's why it pays to be on the up and up. What part of the Carolina are you in??

meets1
03-02-2006, 04:40 PM
I here ya. Same with a guy in my area. We compete - but get along. I am not one to mandate certain items within the business world, but come on, no insurance, cash - although not a bad thing, no lic., it makes it tough for you and I to compete at a comptetive market price.

jsf343
03-02-2006, 04:54 PM
I couldn't agree more meets1. It is sooooooooooo frustrating to see people
sign up with services you know are not legal. I just want to yell "don't use them!!" :nono: I always tell people who want to use someone cheaper to check their credentials. If we put a rock through your window, WE pay for it.
will they?? very likely they will be loaded and out of there in record time.
Point is... insurance matters, business license matters, paying taxes (even though I hate it) matters, all of these and more are things that add a flavor of legitimacy (sp?)

sheshovel
03-02-2006, 04:58 PM
OH I am so sorry..did it break your little heart MM?
Dash all your hopes for mankind?

Rev. Crabgrass
03-02-2006, 04:59 PM
Yeah we all have to pay taxes and no one likes it, he will most likely find out the hard way that no license and failure to pay taxes is going to bite him in a$$. Just pay up front and get it over with. the government gets pretty sticky about money.


REV.

rodfather
03-02-2006, 05:10 PM
OH I am so sorry..did it break your little heart MM?
Dash all your hopes for mankind?

what the hell is that supposed to mean?

HenryB
03-02-2006, 05:18 PM
Sad to say in my area the more legit you are the more you get hassled. Below the rador seems to be the way to go. This is wrong. But a reality. Yes I'm totally legit on radar. Between chemical reports, audits licensing fees and renewals it is really disallusioning. I've seen some of these guys do big jobs, apply pesticides etc on mainstreet. No problems at all.

meets1
03-02-2006, 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by sheshovel
OH I am so sorry..did it break your little heart MM?
Dash all your hopes for mankind?


what the hell is that supposed to mean?

EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID??????????????/

rodfather
03-02-2006, 05:23 PM
Sad to say in my area the more legit you are the more you get hassled. Below the rador seems to be the way to go. This is wrong. But a reality. Yes I'm totally legit on radar. Between chemical reports, audits licensing fees and renewals it is really disallusioning. I've seen some of these guys do big jobs, apply pesticides etc on mainstreet. No problems at all.

I agree Henry...but I am not going backward at this point in my life. I have too much to gamble away.

DixieFerris
03-02-2006, 05:48 PM
Something tells me that not all that MM is saying can be true. sure he could be paying people under the table and cutting some corners, but not paying taxes and having the licenses for someone around that long doesn't add up. Sorry but I'm just not buying into this one. I know there are a lot of cheaters out there, but to this extreme I doubt

sheshovel
03-02-2006, 06:02 PM
Now Now don't blow a rod..rod..just teasing

Green-Pro
03-02-2006, 06:02 PM
what the hell is that supposed to mean?

I don't know what the hell it was supposed to mean but some folks just don't get it IMO RF, Regulations/rules are in place for a reason, to protect you, the consumer, and the public in general. We are all required to live and play by the same rules why someone would want to "risk" it all to make a few extra dollars vs. the cost when caught, is beyond me.

sheshovel
03-02-2006, 06:02 PM
Originally Posted by sheshovel
OH I am so sorry..did it break your little heart MM?
Dash all your hopes for mankind?


what the hell is that supposed to mean?

EXACTLY WHAT HE SAID??????????????/

No...She said..Hahaaaahaa:clapping:

Green-Pro are you refering to me as "Some folks"?

rodfather
03-02-2006, 06:21 PM
I don't know what the hell it was supposed to mean but some folks just don't get it IMO RF, Regulations/rules are in place for a reason, to protect you, the consumer, and the public in general. We are all required to live and play by the same rules why someone would want to "risk" it all to make a few extra dollars vs. the cost when caught, is beyond me.

no better words said G-P...very true

Green-Pro
03-02-2006, 06:40 PM
No...She said..Hahaaaahaa:clapping:

Green-Pro are you refering to me as "Some folks"?

Not you directly She, while your comment meat jokingly could be construed differently, there is are folks that deem these people not worth the effort to post about or be concerned with. I simply "borrowed" your comment to illustarte the point that folks that skirt the law in business and the ones that ignore them and feel it to be a waste of their time to react to, are hurting/affecting more than somebody elses pride.

MMLawn
03-02-2006, 06:58 PM
Something tells me that not all that MM is saying can be true. sure he could be paying people under the table and cutting some corners, but not paying taxes and having the licenses for someone around that long doesn't add up. Sorry but I'm just not buying into this one. I know there are a lot of cheaters out there, but to this extreme I doubt

Don't really care whether adds up for you or not. Did you actually read my post? The whole point was that I too was stunned at the level of "cheating" as you said. Fact is all I say is very true. You see in NC as in most states all licensing, and commercial insurance info is public record. All you have to know is where to look to find it and the www makes that easy. I did confirm sadly what I was told because as I said I respected this person before discovering it to be true through those very records....better yet the discovery of NO record. Also READ the post! I never said he wasn't paying HIS taxes I clearly said that I wasn't sure on that one but was positive that he was not paying taxes on his employees and left it to wonder if he was paying personally or not.

jason_2005lawnman
03-02-2006, 07:35 PM
Don't really care whether adds up for you or not. Did you actually read my post? The whole point was that I too was stunned at the level of "cheating" as you said. Fact is all I say is very true. You see in NC as in most states all licensing, and commercial insurance info is public record. All you have to know is where to look to find it and the www makes that easy. I did confirm sadly what I was told because as I said I respected this person before discovering it to be true through those very records....better yet the discovery of NO record. Also READ the post! I never said he wasn't paying HIS taxes I clearly said that I wasn't sure on that one but was positive that he was not paying taxes on his employees and left it to wonder if he was paying personally or not.
Do you know for a fact that he is NOT sending them a 10-99 at the end of the season; i have two employee's and at the end of the season send them a 10-99; and my cpa is well aware of this; it is not against the law to do this;

Jpocket
03-02-2006, 08:30 PM
FAct is around here 75% of the mid sized operations around have atleast 1 illegal "under the table" employee. I know b/c I know alot of the owners, and the people that work for them. Most guys around here just have there Foreman "On the books" so to speak. It's just a reality in most places.

6'7 330
03-02-2006, 08:40 PM
Do you know for a fact that he is NOT sending them a 10-99 at the end of the season; i have two employee's and at the end of the season send them a 10-99; and my cpa is well aware of this; it is not against the law to do this;

If you have two employees and 10-99 them...prey the IRS don't get wind of it, it will be jail time.

FAct is around here 75% of the mid sized operations around have atleast 1 illegal "under the table" employee. I know b/c I know alot of the owners, and the people that work for them. Most guys around here just have there Foreman "On the books" so to speak. It's just a reality in most places.

And reality will set in big time when the under the table employee gets hurt.AND TAX FRAUD HAS NO STATUE OF LIMITATIONS.It amazes me people take this ****, not following the rules, as being normal behavior.

MMLawn
03-02-2006, 10:00 PM
Do you know for a fact that he is NOT sending them a 10-99 at the end of the season; i have two employee's and at the end of the season send them a 10-99; and my cpa is well aware of this; it is not against the law to do this;


YES, I do know for a fact that he is not.

and


YES, it is against the Law to 1099 employees. It's called tax evasion and if your CPA truely told you (which even a first year CPA knows better than, so I really doubt any CPA really told you this) it was not against the law then he is a bozo and you should fire him at once before he causes you to go to jail. The ONLY way and it is iron clad that you can 1099 someone that does work for you is if they are a TRUE Contractor using THEIR equipment, working on THEIR schedule, using THEIR truck and trailer, and THEIR gas doing work subbed from you. If they are working when YOU say, doing what YOU say do, using YOUR equipment, YOUR gas...they are YOUR employee and you MUST W2 them and pay monthly Federal WH, FICA/SS, Unemployment, and State Taxes on them by the 15th of each month and report those deposits and their salary via 941 each quarter. PERIOD.

I also don't believe you actually have a CPA. If you are too sorry to pay taxes that you are legally required to and are intentionally subverting Federal Tax Laws you sure aren't going to pay a CPA.

daveintoledo
03-02-2006, 10:12 PM
wow what a let down, and you obviously respected this person.....

befnme
03-02-2006, 10:24 PM
i had a competitor lco around here that i hated .but respected him for doin it right .i mean he was all lettered up and had 2 nice commercial mowers ,all stihl hand held equipment , stihl back pack and all .i never thought about him being illegal everytime i saw him spraying .he said he was going back into farming is the reason he was selling all of his equipment , well come to find out the " man " caught him spraying w/out a license and charged him 1500.00 per gallon of spray he had .cost him like 8000.00 in all .also him buddy helping him spray got a 200.00 fine just for being there . so needless to say he isnt in business anymore he sold his equipment to pay the fines.

MMLawn
03-02-2006, 10:29 PM
wow what a let down, and you obviously respected this person.....


Yeah kinda friends, not like close friends but kinda like "passing" friends. His business is not on my level so that has never been an issue but yes as a person I did have a lot of respect for him......had being the key word. I would have never, ever suspected he would be a MowJoe though.

impactlandscaping
03-02-2006, 10:38 PM
Had a similar incident 2 years ago...well known guy around here, 2-3 employees, nice trucks, machines, etc...I wanted him to sub some dirtwork for us. At the jobsite during the review of the work, I asked him to submit a current WC certificate, copy of his contractor license, and state tax certificate in with the paperwork. He looked at me and said cash only, and nobody knows..I was shocked. No wonder he had such nice equipment. He's no longer around as far as I know of.:hammerhead:

JimLewis
03-03-2006, 12:00 AM
Do you know for a fact that he is NOT sending them a 10-99 at the end of the season; i have two employee's and at the end of the season send them a 10-99; and my cpa is well aware of this; it is not against the law to do this;

Really? Mind giving me the name and phone number of that CPA? Because I doubt that's true. No good CPA would ever tell you that it's okay to have employees and then just 1099 them at the end of the season. 1099s are for sub-contractors (independent contractors). And it's very unlikely your "employees" qualify as an independent contractor.

But don't take my word for it. Check out the official IRS document on the subject. Here it is;

http://www.hasys.com/systems/20_factors.pdf

There are 20 factors listed there in order that a person be legally considered a true independent contractor. If you don't meet most all of those factors, you are in for a rude awakening one day when the IRS audits you. A rude awakening as in years and years of back taxes owed - RIGHT NOW OR WE SHUT DOWN YOUR BUSINESS.

My best friend's dad has a business in California and thought he was getting away with this little scam for years. Paying no payroll taxes, just 1099 the employees at the end of the year. Well, guess what happened last month? IRS came auditing. Found him guilty of owing back tax for 5 years. Guess how much that ended up being? over $500,000!!!! Now lucky for him, he has that kind of money saved up. He has a very big, very profitable business. But that's the kind of crap that happens when you try to outsmart the IRS and think that you can get away with not claiming your employees as real employees.

jason_2005lawnman
03-03-2006, 12:02 AM
If you have two employees and 10-99 them...prey the IRS don't get wind of it, it will be jail time.



And reality will set in big time when the under the table employee gets hurt.AND TAX FRAUD HAS NO STATUE OF LIMITATIONS.It amazes me people take this ****, not following the rules, as being normal behavior.
i use a legal cpa and follow their rules and as long as i send them a 10-99 then im in the clear and following the law; if you think your right and im wrong call the irs; i want you to; you need to learn some things; i dont think your as smart as you think you are; the irs knows everything im doing; i dont have to hide a damn thing; i even have to send in child support money on one of my employee's; so i dont think i could hide if i wanted to; go do some more homework; :hammerhead:

HOOLIE
03-03-2006, 12:15 AM
Yeah kinda friends, not like close friends but kinda like "passing" friends. His business is not on my level so that has never been an issue but yes as a person I did have a lot of respect for him......had being the key word. I would have never, ever suspected he would be a MowJoe though.

Mike, are you going to bring it to this guy's attention...or tip off the IRS....???

jason_2005lawnman
03-03-2006, 12:35 AM
YES, I do know for a fact that he is not.

and


YES, it is against the Law to 1099 employees. It's called tax evasion and if your CPA truely told you (which even a first year CPA knows better than, so I really doubt any CPA really told you this) it was not against the law then he is a bozo and you should fire him at once before he causes you to go to jail. The ONLY way and it is iron clad that you can 1099 someone that does work for you is if they are a TRUE Contractor using THEIR equipment, working on THEIR schedule, using THEIR truck and trailer, and THEIR gas doing work subbed from you. If they are working when YOU say, doing what YOU say do, using YOUR equipment, YOUR gas...they are YOUR employee and you MUST W2 them and pay monthly Federal WH, FICA/SS, Unemployment, and State Taxes on them by the 15th of each month and report those deposits and their salary via 941 each quarter. PERIOD.

I also don't believe you actually have a CPA. If you are too sorry to pay taxes that you are legally required to and are intentionally subverting Federal Tax Laws you sure aren't going to pay a CPA.
i guess you just call h&r block and i also use a local one stupid; of course you are in their business i forgot; or was it a lawn service your in; hmm; lets see here oh yeah maybe i need to use you; lmao; i am totally legal; maybe you arent; hmmm; lets see; oh yea you dont need one you are one right; lol; you like to try and run everybodys business for them ; but dont suceed; you cant even run your own ; oh by the way if you think you know so much lets just throw the 10-99 out the window; they dont use them anymore right; wrong; i write my employee a check every week; and then any amount over 599.00 then i have to send him a 10-99; oh but i forgot that isnt your way; by god were braking the law( your law) lmao; hmmm; i think ill make myself a bet on what your going to say now; lol; its people that are ruining the lawn business; i luv going under guys like you and giving a lower bid and getting from you and showing what kind of professional job i really do; i bet you liked that; lol;:clapping:

Envy Lawn Service
03-03-2006, 01:43 AM
You know I guess with many years in business I should have known this. Maybe I really deep down inside did know it happens and just couldn't bring myself to accept it though so my mind played tricks on me so I wouldn't accept such.

Today I learned that not all the MowJoes are the guys with the beat up Murrays in the trunk or the beat up Sears lawn tractor on an old homemade wooden trailer. NOPE. Some of them are ones that we think are "respectable businesses".

I know this guy that is a local small LCO. It is just him and a couple of part-ime employees. As a person he is very respected among those that know him (or so we thought). He does full service (full mowing and landscape maintenance plus full fert & squirt) residential and commercial accounts, but again on a small scale. He drives a newer very nice 1/2 ton pickup, has a nice 16' trailer, uses only the very best commercial mowers, trimmers, blowers and edgers. Owns his own WB aerator, uses a brand name spreader and ferts, and has a spray rig.

Sounds fine right? Yep, and that's what I always thought.

BUT, today I learn and verify that he is NOT Licensed by the State as an Applicator, does NOT have any business licenses, and has NO insurance......AND pays his employees completely in cash and "under the table" and pays no taxes or FICA/SS, Unemployment or Worker Comp on them.......as far as taxes on himself and his business well that I can only assume, but given the above that I know is true.....well you guess.....

Didn't read anything more than your post.
I went through the same "eye-opening" experience some time ago.

If you did a little deeper and check a few more it will end in disgust.
You'll find that even more of those you LEAST expected will be the same way.
These guys have figured out how to work around the system.
They can even walk right in on your "high requirement" jobs and walk away with them.

When I stumbled across my first "eye opener" I couldn't help but dig deeper.
Turns out one of the counties I service only has 3 legit companies and I own of them.

But yet there are 3 lawnmowers at every 4-way intersection all season long.

Anyways, it's late, but I'll get you a link to my old thread when I dig it up.

QualityLawnCare4u
03-03-2006, 02:00 AM
i guess you just call h&r block and i also use a local one stupid; of course you are in their business i forgot; or was it a lawn service your in; hmm; lets see here oh yeah maybe i need to use you; lmao; i am totally legal; maybe you arent; hmmm; lets see; oh yea you dont need one you are one right; lol; you like to try and run everybodys business for them ; but dont suceed; you cant even run your own ; oh by the way if you think you know so much lets just throw the 10-99 out the window; they dont use them anymore right; wrong; i write my employee a check every week; and then any amount over 599.00 then i have to send him a 10-99; oh but i forgot that isnt your way; by god were braking the law( your law) lmao; hmmm; i think ill make myself a bet on what your going to say now; lol; its people that are ruining the lawn business; i luv going under guys like you and giving a lower bid and getting from you and showing what kind of professional job i really do; i bet you liked that; lol;:clapping:

Jason, let me offer some advice (and I can tell that you are one of those kind that already knows everything) that there are folks on here like MM and olderthandirt who knows a whole heck of a lot more than you do (and me to). Ive seen guys with your attitude, they are out to put everyone out of biz with their cocky attitude and it just doesnt work. Now since you are new here why dont you just set back and learn something from the advice of the very successful (and no Im not one of them yet). Every person has to have a profit margin and some need more or less than others but I would not be so quick to open my mouth until I had been doing this for quite some time. You can learn a lot from this site but trying to pizz everyone off is not the way to do it especially when you just came to the party and no one knows you yet:hammerhead:

Richard Martin
03-03-2006, 04:28 AM
i guess you just call h&r block and i also use a local one stupid; of course you are in their business i forgot; or was it a lawn service your in; hmm; lets see here oh yeah maybe i need to use you; lmao; i am totally legal; maybe you arent; hmmm; lets see; oh yea you dont need one you are one right; lol; you like to try and run everybodys business for them ; but dont suceed; you cant even run your own ; oh by the way if you think you know so much lets just throw the 10-99 out the window; they dont use them anymore right; wrong; i write my employee a check every week; and then any amount over 599.00 then i have to send him a 10-99; oh but i forgot that isnt your way; by god were braking the law( your law) lmao; hmmm; i think ill make myself a bet on what your going to say now; lol; its people that are ruining the lawn business; i luv going under guys like you and giving a lower bid and getting from you and showing what kind of professional job i really do; i bet you liked that; lol;:clapping:

You really, really, really need to get a different CPA. Your can't only send your employee a 1099 for the amounts above $599 a week. Seasonal or "casual labor" employess are handled in the exact same manner as any other employee.

From the IRS:

Casual or seasonal employees are subject to the same tax withholding rules that apply to other employees.

Ref. http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=101033,00.html

From the IRS:

Who is an Independent Contractor?
A general rule is that you, the payer, have the right to control or direct only the result of the work done by an independent contractor, and not the means and methods of accomplishing the result.

Ref. http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=99921,00.html

What that means is if you are providing the tools (including the trucks they ride in), the schedules, supervision and direction of how to complete the work then they are employees. You even call them employees.

Richard Martin
03-03-2006, 04:44 AM
Also in reference to that $599 thing above you may want to see

http://www.irs.gov/publications/p15/ar02.html#d0e1220

Wages and Other Compensation

Wages subject to federal employment taxes generally include all pay that you give to an employee for services performed.

DixieFerris
03-03-2006, 08:35 AM
That's some great advice from Richard and the other guys, you should soak it up. Sorry MM for disagreeing with you, I just don't know how it's possible for someone like that to operate and not get caught. But that coming from someone who runs things on the books and according to tax laws. Personally, I've always been scared straight for lack of a better terms when it comes to cheating in this industry, totally not worth the repercussions. I just don't spend hours checking into other outfits, I just worry about my stuff. Best of luck this year MM, I'll be talking to you later I'm sure

6'7 330
03-03-2006, 10:52 AM
i use a legal cpa and follow their rules and as long as i send them a 10-99 then im in the clear and following the law; if you think your right and im wrong call the irs; i want you to; you need to learn some things; i dont think your as smart as you think you are; the irs knows everything im doing; i dont have to hide a damn thing; i even have to send in child support money on one of my employee's; so i dont think i could hide if i wanted to; go do some more homework; :hammerhead:

I would suggest you get a Cpa with a brain.You do sound like CPA--not certified public accountant,but certified public ass.And if the IRS gets mad enough at payroll tax evading, in your big house sabbatical, you can learn to avoid Leroy while learning to type a cohesive sentence.

But then what do I know, I have only been in the industry almost 25 years.

Randy Scott
03-03-2006, 11:20 AM
So what's the point to this story? That someone you knew did something you wouldn't have expected? Actually that's pretty much how our society is. It happens every day. People all around us do things you would never expect. That's why I trust nobody and I'm never surprised when things like this happen. That's OUR society. F'in lunatics.

So now you know all this information, and with the constant preaching and crying from the Lawnsite members about low-ballers and cheats, you surely need to further your involvement and help stop this guy from continuing in his business, right? We want to see the newspaper ad in your town about this guy also when he goes down. To have proof that the almighty lawnsite members have taken a stand and done what they can to better the landscape community. I know the season is soon approaching us, and should be the busiest time of anyone's year, but you need to stop this guy for all of us. Good luck and god-speed.

MMLawn
03-03-2006, 08:24 PM
Mike, are you going to bring it to this guy's attention...or tip off the IRS....???


Yeah Hoolie I am going to talk to him in the morning about it and how he is letting himself and the industry down and I'm going to make sure he understands that he could lose everything he has worked for. I am not going to rat him out to the IRS....not my style.

yrdandgardenhandyman
03-04-2006, 05:28 AM
Something tells me that not all that MM is saying can be true. sure he could be paying people under the table and cutting some corners, but not paying taxes and having the licenses for someone around that long doesn't add up. Sorry but I'm just not buying into this one. I know there are a lot of cheaters out there, but to this extreme I doubt


There are people in this and other service businesses who go for years illegally and don't get caught. And some of them are the part timers who mow for $10.00 and think they are making money but just can't seem to be able to afford to quit their motel maintenance man job. They stay under the radar because they just don't make enough money to be noticed.
The enforcement just isn't there. But, let me be 1 day late sending in the sales tax receipts and I get emails, phone calls and letters threatening to shut me down and fine me.:hammerhead:

Precision
03-04-2006, 03:48 PM
i use a legal cpa and follow their rules and as long as i send them a 10-99 then im in the clear and following the law; if you think your right and im wrong call the irs; i want you to; you need to learn some things; i dont think your as smart as you think you are; the irs knows everything im doing; i dont have to hide a damn thing; i even have to send in child support money on one of my employee's; so i dont think i could hide if i wanted to; go do some more homework; :hammerhead:


let us know what jail you end up in. We will send you a cake every spring.

jason_2005lawnman
03-04-2006, 07:57 PM
let us know what jail you end up in. We will send you a cake every spring.

THis post has been edited. I strongly suggest you watch the name calling. jodi

Bull
03-05-2006, 05:00 AM
MMLawn, where in NC are you located? I ask this because in our local paper there is an ad for lawn care by a company named M&M Lawn Care.

Precision
03-05-2006, 10:54 AM
THis post has been edited. I strongly suggest you watch the name calling. jodi

Thanks Jodi.

If My comment was out of line, let me know. I self edited that from what I was gonna put.

Just trying to keep Jason (or more likely the others who read it) outta jail. Cause that is where that kind of logic is taking him.