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View Full Version : Soil Friendly Fertilizers used in combo products


turfsolutions
03-03-2006, 07:33 PM
MY IPM goals have always been to feed the soil and as a result you will get healthy grass. I use herbicides, insecticides, and fungicides as most of you all do. I would love to be putting down organic or natural based fertiizers every time I feed the lawn (soil). Here's the problem. Half of my applications I used combo products. Fert with Dimension and Fert with Merit. I have yet to see a combo product use soil friendly fertilizers. Is there any out there that are feasibly priced? Anyone else ever wonder why this is not offered? Maybe there is a processing issue? Anyway, if there was a feasible combo product offered such as an organic based 12-2-4 with dimension, I would be the first to buy a pallet.

NattyLawn
03-03-2006, 07:49 PM
Nutrients Plus has 5-5-0, 10-2-4, and 16-2-3 with Cavalcade just introduced this season.

Check out this link for more info:
http://nutrientsplus.com/cavalcade.html

DUSTYCEDAR
03-03-2006, 08:45 PM
well it looks like i have something new to try

Norm Al
03-04-2006, 12:53 AM
feed the soil? have you guys every heard of hydroponics? turf doesnt even need soil,,,,,you guys been smokin some whacky weed or something? or listening to some blow hard that thinks he is intellegent?

Az Gardener
03-04-2006, 01:09 AM
What about just getting some healthy turf that will overtake the weeds. All that crap you put down kills any beneficial microorganisms that are working the soil on the turfs behalf. Live with a few weeds or pull them, at least the big ones, cut the turf more frequently if needed to keep it short enough to minimize you fungus problems. We mow our winter rye here at 1.5" at the tallest, most I mow at 3/4" I doubt you would have many fungus problems at that height. Once you get a healthy soil and stand of turf you can mow higher. I could be way off base because I'm in a different climate. But from what I read everyone cuts the grass so tall it holds a lot of moisture if you could work out an every 3-4 day mow schedule for the problem lawns I bet it would solve some problems and the weeds would would disappear too. Just a thought.... Could be completly wrong...

nocutting
03-04-2006, 02:33 AM
What about just getting some healthy turf that will overtake the weeds. All that crap you put down kills any beneficial microorganisms that are working the soil on the turfs behalf. Live with a few weeds or pull them, at least the big ones, cut the turf more frequently if needed to keep it short enough to minimize you fungus problems. We mow our winter rye here at 1.5" at the tallest, most I mow at 3/4" I doubt you would have many fungus problems at that height. Once you get a healthy soil and stand of turf you can mow higher. I could be way off base because I'm in a different climate. But from what I read everyone cuts the grass so tall it holds a lot of moisture if you could work out an every 3-4 day mow schedule for the problem lawns I bet it would solve some problems and the weeds would would disappear too. Just a thought.... Could be completly wrong...
Howdy Az, Thank You for giveing some intelligent conversation to this forum. I'm so tired of these Organic Wannabees, useing Bridge products, Healthy ferts with pesticides that its makein me sick:dizzy: ........why is it they cant do any hard work anymore?.....that a quick shot of pesticide, is always their answer???????? You'd think these guys own stock in Farm Extracts or Nutri-whatever?.....well, Thank You for bein You:usflag:

muddstopper
03-04-2006, 08:59 AM
feed the soil? have you guys every heard of hydroponics? turf doesnt even need soil,,,,,you guys been smokin some whacky weed or something? or listening to some blow hard that thinks he is intellegent?


Since you brought up Hydroponics. Lots of mediums have been tried in hydrophonics to hold the fertilizers close to the roots. The hydrophonics industry has some of the most sever fungal and disease problems of any other indusry that grows plants. Theya re always looking for a new chemical to add to their solutions to help with some new disease that is taking over their plants.

There is one Fact that you can try to dispute if you want to, but here it is any way.

You cant grow healthy plants without healthy soil.
Fertilizer has never made soil healther.
If you cant make healthy soil using fertilizer, you cant grow healthy plants using fertilizer.

Now that isnt saying you cant grow plants with fertilizer, its saying that plants grown using fertilizer tend to have more disease problems than plants grown in healthy soil. sort of like the fat boy that only eats donuts. He's alive and growing, but he sure aint healthy

ThreeWide
03-04-2006, 09:40 AM
Looking for source of N that does good things for the long term?

Consider Nitroform (urea formaldehyde) because studies have shown that it increases microbial activity in the soil over time.

ThreeWide
03-04-2006, 09:50 AM
What about just getting some healthy turf that will overtake the weeds. All that crap you put down kills any beneficial microorganisms that are working the soil on the turfs behalf. Live with a few weeds or pull them, at least the big ones, cut the turf more frequently if needed to keep it short enough to minimize you fungus problems. We mow our winter rye here at 1.5" at the tallest, most I mow at 3/4" I doubt you would have many fungus problems at that height. Once you get a healthy soil and stand of turf you can mow higher. I could be way off base because I'm in a different climate. But from what I read everyone cuts the grass so tall it holds a lot of moisture if you could work out an every 3-4 day mow schedule for the problem lawns I bet it would solve some problems and the weeds would would disappear too. Just a thought.... Could be completly wrong...


This isn't a mowing forum, but this is fundamentally a good point. Every turfgrass has an optimal mowing height depending on the time of year. I can understand that rye does better at 1" or lower, whereas Fescue is generally best at 2.5" to 3". If you study turf types and cultivars, the optimal mowing heights vary quite a bit. Unfortunately, too many homeowners as well as maintenance companies are not aware of these guidelines. I can show you hundreds of Bermuda lawns in my area that are mowed at 3", where the optimal height is half that.

What is particularly frustrating is that many of us know this, but we have no control on that part of turf management.

livingsoils
03-04-2006, 10:10 AM
TGCL is the biggest hydroponic caretaker of lawns in the industry. Do you want to be lumped into the same category?:confused:

A healthy thick lawn is the key to weed suppression no matter what program you use.

Norm Al
03-04-2006, 10:34 AM
you guys are giving way to much attention to the "healthy soil" aspect of what your discussing!

lets see one university discussion on "you need to cure your soils before you can have a healthy lawn"

so all this healthy soil you guys are makin,,,,,what happens when the customer irrigates it with chlorine treated city water?

NattyLawn
03-04-2006, 10:42 AM
Howdy Az, Thank You for giveing some intelligent conversation to this forum. I'm so tired of these Organic Wannabees, useing Bridge products, Healthy ferts with pesticides that its makein me sick:dizzy: ........why is it they cant do any hard work anymore?.....that a quick shot of pesticide, is always their answer???????? You'd think these guys own stock in Farm Extracts or Nutri-whatever?.....well, Thank You for bein You:usflag:

Saxon...Do you expect the turf industry to switch to 100% organic overnight? The original poster asked for a combo bridge product with pre-em, and NP has some....We are in the Pesticide forum right?

NattyLawn
03-04-2006, 10:51 AM
feed the soil? have you guys every heard of hydroponics? turf doesnt even need soil,,,,,you guys been smokin some whacky weed or something? or listening to some blow hard that thinks he is intellegent?

Hydroponics is a growing medium, as is soil. Either way, the plant is fed nutrients through water or by feeding the soil. When you bypass feeding the soil and only the plant (through chem ferts), the soil becomes depleted and dependent on those chemical ferts. for nutrients. Feeding the soil just keeps the nautral balance of microbes, etc. You know what? From some of your posts, typing this is worthless...Don't you have some Crabgrass Alert to sell?

turfsolutions
03-04-2006, 11:25 AM
Great to see so many responses however testy some may have been.

To say that feeding the soil by correcting ph, calcium deficiencies, and boosting micororganisms will do no good towards building healthy turf is rediculous.

As for the all "crap" I put down on the lawns, I use super trimec or speedzone to spot treat weeds whenever possible over blanket spraying. I was not aware that super trimec kills beneficials in the soil. News to me.

I use Merit because it is 10 times less toxic as the post treatment applications for grub damage. With all the grub pressure the last 2 years and with the expected rise in grub populations in my area, I think a good idea since it does not kill the beneficials like the post treatments.

As far as fungicides, unless you treat lawns primarily in saturated clay soils, like I do, don't even chime in on this matter. Sandy soils compared to clay soils is like comparing apples to lincoln logs. I combine biological fungicides like companion with synthetic fungicides to reduce summer patch, brown patch, and red thread damage. Before you respond with the standard proper lawn care practices will fight these, believe me, in the last 11 years I have tried it all. With saturated clay soils combined with 100% humidity and 3 straight days of rain, no matter what you do, your gonna have fungus, and your gonna have to deal with it.

Thanks for the info on the 1 product submitted. I will check it out.

Dusty - winters over, let the BS begin. :hammerhead:

turfsolutions
03-04-2006, 11:29 AM
Norm Al - good point on chlorinated water. I have major issues with this on some of my lawns that expect irrigation systems to keep their lawns healthy during 100 degree stretches. I personally feel that our areas hard water burns lawns big time when temps are high.

DUSTYCEDAR
03-04-2006, 11:29 AM
i am ready to go

Az Gardener
03-04-2006, 12:49 PM
I wouldn't be so concerned about the chlorinated water on lawns, with an annual rainfall of 7" about the only water my lawns get is treated city water. Most of what is out here is heavy compacted clay soil. Unless you are on the side, of or at the base of a mountain, then you might as well be growing hydroponically because the "soil" is loose granite that will make sand look like a premium potting soil. If your turf is weak you will have problems, and you have problems so I will make the leap that you have weak turf. So don't get so frustrated with me as I am trying to help. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. I have been down that road, the Helena Rep. was my best friend she had a chemical for everything and I bought it all but I finally woke up and realized nothing was getting better in fact it was worse. The fat kid and donuts is a good analogy. You think when you put down speed zone although it dose'nt kill the turf it does it any good? The plant has to take stored energy and combat the chemical, and it does but it also weakens the plant . Plant releases some chemical signal, not to call the grubs but just a natural part of their cycle but the grubs have figured it out and they get the signal and come over for a bite. All of nature works this way, the weak get eaten. I do like bridge products I think a humate based product with lots of enzymes will go a long way to helping. A good topdressing of fine compost will also help a lot. Ask for their latest soil test on their product. You want to see a high amount of available nitrogen and you want the salts to be below 8 for sure and the lower the better. I am no agronomist but with a little common sense I was able to interpret the ones I have read. I say this because if your compost is not done it will rob your soil of nitrogen, and if they used reclaimed water to water the compost pile the salt levels will be high and both of these conditions will only make things worse. After we spread it we use a drag mat to work the compost down and get the grass to stand up through the compost. You might also try throwing some alfalfa pellets down they will provide some enzymes for the soil. Just spread it like fertilizer the only damage you will cause if you put down too much is the flies will be everywhere. Speaking of flies their is always good ole manure. Good luck. healthy soil=healthy grass=few weeds and what bugs you have will do no damage as they will be moving on to your competitors weak turf.

fertit
03-07-2006, 11:13 AM
MY IPM goals have always been to feed the soil and as a result you will get healthy grass. I use herbicides, insecticides, and fungicides as most of you all do. I would love to be putting down organic or natural based fertiizers every time I feed the lawn (soil). Here's the problem. Half of my applications I used combo products. Fert with Dimension and Fert with Merit. I have yet to see a combo product use soil friendly fertilizers. Is there any out there that are feasibly priced? Anyone else ever wonder why this is not offered? Maybe there is a processing issue? Anyway, if there was a feasible combo product offered such as an organic based 12-2-4 with dimension, I would be the first to buy a pallet.

Regal uses Nitroform as a base for many of their chemistries. Nitroform feeds organically by releasing not just N, but also C, which does promote healthy soil through increased root development by increasing beneficial. Of course, you could be a cynic and claim the chemistry will destroy the microbes, in which case, you probably shouldn't be using chemicals anyway, and that's when you want to convert your customers to dichondra and hope they realize a few weeds are ok. Which is OK, depending on your point-of-view.