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Drafto
03-03-2006, 11:26 PM
I was at my local dealer today (will NOT mention the name) ordering material for upcoming jobs and I got into a discussion with the owner about edge restraint. They used to sell The Beast but have switched to selling Dimatex, he was telling me the difference and BS stuff. So while I was ordering materials for a paver job he asks me if I want the "low-profile" or standard edge restraint, I was a little surprised at the question. I asked, "Why would I want the low profile for a paver install?"

He says, "Most of the guys now are just putting the edge restraint on top of the sand or screenings so they are switching to the low profile so you can't see it." WTF? I was shocked! When I simply said, "that is wrong". He says yeah, I know.

What is wrong with people? How come every time I turn around I feel like my competitors are destroying this industry? I am not a seasoned hardscaper, this is my second year in business, but I have spent the time and money, (did I mention time?) to educate myself as to the proper fundamental practices of hardscaping.

Where does this problem start? With the Manufacturers? Distributors? Contractors? Why would this particular dealer even sell that stuff for the reason he KNEW he was selling it?

I just wanted to drop a line to you guys and gal (Sheshovel) and vent a little.

Dan

cgland
03-03-2006, 11:48 PM
Dan, Dan, Dan. Welcome to the reality of hardscaping. It's funny you post this, because I was just at my supplier today and had a discussion about the list of contractors they hand out. After some back and forth stuff:hammerhead: , they will only be handing out the names of contractors that are EP Henry Authorized. This is what I like to see! Suppliers like this are definately helping the industry by promoting dedication and professionalism. Suppliers like yours are basically a bunch of uneducated, yes men just out to make a buck! It sickens me! Low profile edging on top of your setting bed?!?!?!?!? To me it would be the same height as if you put a standard restraint on the base. I feel that this is a way that some contractors are trying to save a buck, because that edging is cheaper. I know EP Henry has had it's problems, but you can't fault them for trying to increase our customers perception of the industry.
P.S. Dan - The more you are around this sector, the more boneheaded SH** you will see.

Chris

Drafto
03-03-2006, 11:56 PM
I know EP Henry has had it's problems, but you can't fault them for trying to increase our customers perception of the industry.
P.S. Dan - The more you are around this sector, the more boneheaded SH** you will see.

Chris

For the record, this was not an EP Henry distributor. There was a lot more to the conversation but typing all of it would have been too boring to read. I ended up telling him to let the contractors know that is a GREAT idea b/c I have some great pictures of jobs they installed and I love the repair work:

http://www.lawnsite.com/showthread.php?t=131883

Also, the word "screeings" must have slipped by you, but I didn't let it by me when he said it! This same distributor sells 2A, he sells it as 2A but really it is 2" minus, but he says thats what 2A is! We had that discussion today too when he asked why I didn't need any modified, I bought that stuff from them ONCE.

I can tell this year is off to a great start :) !

Dan

cgland
03-04-2006, 12:08 AM
Ask him if his 2A meets the ASTM or AASHTO standards for 2A.

Chris

Drafto
03-04-2006, 12:10 AM
Ask him if his 2A meets the ASTM or AASHTO standards for 2A.

Chris

No need to ask him, it doesn't. He uses b/c it is what is needed under asphalt, so that is what he stocks and sells to unsuspecting paver contractors.

sheshovel
03-04-2006, 12:21 AM
This is not pavers but I use this.

cgland
03-04-2006, 12:39 AM
Is that pea gravel? I love the natural plantings.

Chris

Drafto
03-04-2006, 12:42 AM
Is that pea gravel? I love the natural plantings.

Chris

C'mon Chris, you know you want to do it...........post a pic.

Dan

cgland
03-04-2006, 12:46 AM
OOOOOKKKKKK!

Here is a patio, pond, walls, plantings and pergola we did this year (last year)

Chris



Damn that felt good!:dancing:

sheshovel
03-04-2006, 01:04 AM
Well it was 1/4"crushed slowly being replaced with San Antonio pebble that theu dident have in at the time..They parked in that area before
Beutifull work cgland as per usual:dancing: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:
now weren't we discussing edge restraints?

Dirty Water
03-04-2006, 02:40 AM
I was just discussing edge restrains today with another landscaper. There is a local guy who does a lot of hardscaping sub work, he prefers to use that cheap plastic bed edging as his edge restraints.

Needless to say, a lot of his patio's are starting to spread and look real sloppy.

nocutting
03-04-2006, 02:42 AM
This is not pavers but I use this.
Really Nice job Sheshovel:)

kris
03-04-2006, 11:20 AM
There are lots of different edge restraints and what I am noticing is that lots of them are not even wide enough to begin with(re 1") ..there is no way you could install them properly.
I think "we" have to let these suppliers know that this is not exceptable. For a paver supplier to sell these inferior products is very counter productive. When the job fails "joe blow" doesn't think that it was an inferior contractor doing the job ...he thinks paving stone doesn't work.
It is in our best interest to have our competition installing properly.

cgland
03-04-2006, 08:20 PM
I couldn't agree more Kris! It sounds stupid and we may be shooting ourselves in the foot, but everyone must install these things properly in order for this industry to continue to grow.

Chris

sheshovel
03-04-2006, 08:45 PM
Here's some more of those plantings for cgland.

P.s. I did NOT stick those lights in there!

cgland
03-05-2006, 12:06 AM
Are those Leyland Cypress in the back?

Chris

sheshovel
03-05-2006, 12:10 AM
No they are a juniper...umm skyrocket I think
I would never plant Lelandii that close..I am a professional remember?

cgland
03-05-2006, 09:36 AM
I am a professional remember?

That's right!

Chris

Dirty Water
03-05-2006, 01:39 PM
Juniper look nice when they are young.

But if you have ever had to install a irrigation system in a 20 year old landscape full of junipers you will be swearing like a sailor at the original landscaper.

just FYI :)

sheshovel
03-05-2006, 02:03 PM
Drip is already installed!You can't see it but that is two in the front and one in the back
to provide future privacy from the street that runs in front of the property out of the pic

GreenMonster
03-05-2006, 02:30 PM
There are lots of different edge restraints and what I am noticing is that lots of them are not even wide enough to begin with(re 1") ..there is no way you could install them properly.
I think "we" have to let these suppliers know that this is not exceptable. For a paver supplier to sell these inferior products is very counter productive. When the job fails "joe blow" doesn't think that it was an inferior contractor doing the job ...he thinks paving stone doesn't work.
It is in our best interest to have our competition installing properly.

Excellent point, Kris. It's really in everyone's best interest for interlocking pavers to be installed correctly, even if it's your competition doing the work. First of all, when the lowball guys start doing it right, they'll realize they'll have to charge more! The more guys there are charging appropriately, the better.

Secondly, everytime a consumer sees a wavy walkway, weed infested patio, or a driveway that is creeping horizontally, there is an assumption that it is a problem with pavers, and not the installer.

Drafto
03-05-2006, 04:17 PM
First of all, when the lowball guys start doing it right, they'll realize they'll have to charge more! The more guys there are charging appropriately, the better.

This is why I had to raise my prices this year :)

Good points GreenMonster but how can we, as contractors, be proactive for our industry? As sad as it is, do you approach your competition to let them know you fix their work all the time? I know most of us use the phrase, "they will be long gone before they could hurt my business". That is a little too passive of an approach to prevent our industry from a bad rap. So how do we fix this problem?

Dan

kris
03-05-2006, 08:40 PM
So how do we fix this problem?

Dan

You can start by what I suggested...when you see suppliers selling products that are not up to standard you ***** about it.

Next thing you do is try to educate your prospective clients. Tell them the steps you will be taking when installing their paving stones. Make sure they are comparing apples to apples when getting quotes. Paving stones have been installed for thousands of years ...they are better than concrete and asphalt.
Sell, sell, sell.