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View Full Version : Too early for Pre-M????


steve in Pa.
03-06-2006, 04:06 PM
Saw a local competitor putting down pre-m today, seems a little early for central Pa. Ground temp cant be close to warm enough. Whats everybody else think?????:confused:

livingsoils
03-06-2006, 05:19 PM
I'm in South eastern PA and think it is too early. I see some big companies out probably because the have a lot of customers to get done. I hope they are doing split apps! :confused:
Next week we will start seeing some warming temps then maybe we will think about doing some apps. :clapping:
good luck!

Koster Landscape
03-06-2006, 07:39 PM
There is nothing wrong with getting a early start,you'll be ahead of the game.

amvega
03-06-2006, 07:45 PM
I would have to disagree with you on that. What happens in the ground temp. doesn't get up to 50-55 before your pre-m dissolve. Can you say hello to break thru. There goes your profit. You'll be back spraying some drive to kill the post emergent crabgrass and that isn't cheap.

TLS
03-06-2006, 07:55 PM
Ideally you want your products window of protection to last through your PEAK crabgrass germination/growth stages.

IMO, right now is just too early.

In this area, the forsythia plant is usually a good indicator of when to apply pre-emergents.

Green-Pro
03-06-2006, 07:55 PM
I would have to disagree with you on that. What happens in the ground temp. doesn't get up to 50-55 before your pre-m dissolve. Can you say hello to break thru. There goes your profit. You'll be back spraying some drive to kill the post emergent crabgrass and that isn't cheap.

yep, what he said. Ground temps here are still in the 30 - 32 degree range. To early for me, I take the ground temp. every other day and it has not changed very significantly here for the past two weeks. I'm hoping between the 15th and 20th we will start apps. but will see what the soil tells me.

steve in Pa.
03-06-2006, 09:25 PM
Then again its the same company i've seen out spraying broadleaf with a very good chance of showers and thunderstorms!!!!:drinkup: :drinkup: :confused: so i guess this shouldn't be surprizing.

ThreeWide
03-06-2006, 09:34 PM
You folks worried about rain breaking down your preemergent before the weed germination time comes? I wouldn't be concerned because microbes are the primary cause of preemergent breakdown.

When the soil temps are cold, you have little to no microbial activity. If you put it out when soil temps are 40, it will be in place for you when the temps hit 55.

The longer the half-life of the product, the less it breaks down on its own. This is why I like Barricade with a half life of nearly 200 days. It has the longest half-life of the commonly used preemergents.

Killswitch
03-06-2006, 09:42 PM
Crabgrass doesnt germinate till the end of April. I'd say they were a lot ambitious.

Who was it? TGCL?

Killswitch
03-06-2006, 09:43 PM
Barricade boasts a 200 day half life on the ground?

For real?

Thats 7 months.

ThreeWide
03-06-2006, 09:51 PM
In a controlled environment, yes.

But you have to consider microbes breaking it down when the soil temps are warm enough.

vegomatic40
03-06-2006, 10:24 PM
Same old song guys. Read the label. Thoroughly. Barricade gives several rates for control and yes can give up to 7 mos. of good control. Just don't get too carried away and let it lapse over into your seeding time to avoid possible germination problems. I've seen it happen. By the way, as best as I remember crab will germinate at soil temps. as low as 52F for 7-10 days straight. If you wait for that perfect window (bluebird skies, no wind, moon in retrograde blah blah etc.) you might get caught with your britches down. Put it down right with a even app. at the correct rate(s) and trust your product.

Runner
03-07-2006, 12:20 AM
Yeah,...right. Just like all the other pre-emergents - inCLUDing Dimension. The timelines they give are under optimum conditions, whick essentially, don't exist out in the field. Many of these companies however, start way early, because they have 5000 or more customers to get through. One of the downfalls to having that much work.

philk17088
03-07-2006, 07:17 AM
You folks worried about rain breaking down your preemergent before the weed germination time comes? I wouldn't be concerned because microbes are the primary cause of preemergent breakdown.

When the soil temps are cold, you have little to no microbial activity. If you put it out when soil temps are 40, it will be in place for you when the temps hit 55.

The longer the half-life of the product, the less it breaks down on its own. This is why I like Barricade with a half life of nearly 200 days. It has the longest half-life of the commonly used preemergents.
But if you apply to frozen soil, the material never forms the barrior and can be washed away with the next rain.
Our soil was still frozen here.

Rtom45
03-07-2006, 08:21 AM
We had a very mild January in Northwest PA. although we had normal temperatures during February. I'm hearing that crabgrass may have already germinated and pre emergent may be a waste of time this year. We've used Barricade applied in April the past couple years and had good control. Any thoughts on this?

TLS
03-07-2006, 08:27 AM
I'm just guessing here....

Lets say you saw real warm temps in January.

And lets say crabgrass DID germinate.

Didn't you see a REAL cold February? Wouldn't THAT kill any new germination? I know a good frost kills crabgrass QUICK in the fall, and thats an established weed. I cant see a newly germinated sprout being able to survive single digit temps.

NattyLawn
03-07-2006, 08:43 AM
Good Point, TLS. Even if we had a mild January, were the soil temps consistently in the mid 50's for crabgrass germination?

TLS
03-07-2006, 08:50 AM
It's doubtful.

The overnight temps are what warms up the soil. That and the longer duration and higher angle of the warming sun. In January, we had NONE of that. Sure our days were seasonably mild, but at night we were still cold.

I stick by the forsythia bush theory. As long as its down before they drop your usually OK.

Speaking of half lifes (if thats what its called).....what is the specific length of control of the different pre-emergents?

marko
03-07-2006, 09:08 AM
Soil temps will dictate when crabgrass germinates. I would get it down a couple weeks before that date so it is in the soil. Most seem to forget that just because pre-M is down, crabgrass is not taken care of for the year. It will germinate in August just as well.

TLS
03-07-2006, 09:19 AM
I think the trick is getting the wild summer outbreaks under control as years go by. The less plants going to seed, the less seed there is to germinate.

Best advice I can give is to apply right over driveways and walks, then go and blow the driveways and walks off. This concentrates the granual in the hot spots around the edges.

steve in Pa.
03-12-2006, 12:11 PM
Thanks for the replies guys. we are still going to hold off a few more weeks till putting our pre m down.

FINN
03-12-2006, 07:44 PM
Good Point, TLS. Even if we had a mild January, were the soil temps consistently in the mid 50's for crabgrass germination?


I read where soil temps need to be 55+for 5 consecutive days at a 2" depth.

crzymow
03-13-2006, 01:49 PM
im not putting mine down until mid april, ground tempt has a long ways to go.

T.Wells
03-14-2006, 10:43 AM
I have a heavily overseeded lawn (slit seeded, Lesco Teammates Plus) that was done in the first week of September. When do you think I should apply my pre-M on the lawn? I was planning on using Dimension but some may feel that some seed may still germinate at this spring and that I should wait.

Thoughts?

T.Wells

PS Do you PA guys want to share your Lesco treatment plans for this year? How many apps, when, and what product.

TLS
03-14-2006, 10:46 AM
PA's a big state.

A big zone variance.

An even bigger variance in Pre-M timing.

Where are you in PA?

DUSTYCEDAR
03-14-2006, 10:59 AM
its a crap shoot no matter what u do as for barracade lasting 7 monthes at what rate? how much irrigation?
and for those of u that have been doing this for a while have u noticed a thining of your turf from repeated apps of pre emergents?[this would be on lawns that never get reseeded]

T.Wells
03-14-2006, 11:04 AM
PA's a big state.

A big zone variance.

An even bigger variance in Pre-M timing.

Where are you in PA?

SE PA. Sorry.

TLS
03-14-2006, 11:18 AM
This is going to be a questionable year. Last year my area got hit HARD with crabgrass. So there is a LOT of thin areas that crabgrass left vacant.

I see a LOT of guys frowning on High NPK Pre-M apps, as Spring growth is high without help. But will upping the NPK mix help strengthen and thicken the sparce turf that is there now?

We need the turf to be thick and strong prior to the crabgrass infestation this year. (Last year it hit EARLY with that June heat and drought).

Any thoughts on this?

DUSTYCEDAR
03-14-2006, 04:23 PM
THIS year is going to be a problem with thin turf not many wanted to reseed last season after the drought so the lawns went into winter kinda thin and now look even worse
i am going to do a split app and hope for the best

TLS
03-14-2006, 04:27 PM
Dusty,

What will you be using? (product)

Do you use half the amount/rate/setting? Or different % AI?

When time are you targeting your 2nd app for?

timturf
03-14-2006, 04:41 PM
I have a heavily overseeded lawn (slit seeded, Lesco Teammates Plus) that was done in the first week of September. When do you think I should apply my pre-M on the lawn? I was planning on using Dimension but some may feel that some seed may still germinate at this spring and that I should wait.

Thoughts?

T.Wells

PS Do you PA guys want to share your Lesco treatment plans for this year? How many apps, when, and what product.

Just remember, all pre emerge register for lawns are root prunners. Bensulides is the least, barricade will root prune to ~ 1/2 inch, then followed by dimension to 3/4 to 1 inch depth. Other pre emerge are worse! Will also root prune the rihzomes.

Look at the density of root system, don't apply until the last minute, crabgrass germinates at soil temp of 55 degrees, at a 3 inch depth, taken at sunrise. Actually my experience has been you have several more days to apply! I

In my zone, that is ~ 4/20/06, zone 5, in N Ill, it was ~ 5/15, from my experience in early 80's

Fertboy
03-15-2006, 02:31 AM
Hey,


I don't think it's too early. It was 74 here in MD on Mon. The guys here are getting started early. If you started today , and yuo were doing 2 split apps at 6-8 weeks apart that would put you about the 2nd week of june when finished with pre. Should be warm all over by then.


Ed

NattyLawn
03-15-2006, 08:02 AM
Hey,


I don't think it's too early. It was 74 here in MD on Mon. The guys here are getting started early. If you started today , and yuo were doing 2 split apps at 6-8 weeks apart that would put you about the 2nd week of june when finished with pre. Should be warm all over by then.


Ed

I think you're missing the point. It's not about outside temps as it is soil temperature.

ThreeWide
03-15-2006, 09:30 AM
Perhaps this will help you with the soil temps.

http://greencastonline.com/SoilTempMaps.aspx

Fertboy
03-15-2006, 10:07 AM
Turf Unlimited ,

I understand soil temp & crab germ. My point is you have to look at when your last round of pre-m will be applied. Here in MD with a warm spring I can start to see crab germ in early May. I sure wouldn't want to finish 2nd round on a new customer, or customer with 05 dead crab too late. I always do the SUPER sunny crab prone lawns first. Especially with Pre-m since it has no post effect on young crab, like dimension which you can get away with a late app. In reference to 74 temp, just nice some folks are still freezing, and we finally had a couple nice days to work!


Ed

timturf
03-15-2006, 10:40 AM
Turf Unlimited ,

I understand soil temp & crab germ. My point is you have to look at when your last round of pre-m will be applied. Here in MD with a warm spring I can start to see crab germ in early May. I sure wouldn't want to finish 2nd round on a new customer, or customer with 05 dead crab too late. I always do the SUPER sunny crab prone lawns first. Especially with Pre-m since it has no post effect on young crab, like dimension which you can get away with a late app. In reference to 74 temp, just nice some folks are still freezing, and we finally had a couple nice days to work!


Ed

Especially with Pre-m since it has no post effect on young crab, like dimension which you can get away with a late app.

Is pre m for pendamethlin (sp), or for pre emerge?

Dimension for post crab control! Look at the label rate to get post control, I doubt many applicators apply at that high rate to get post control!