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thepawnshop
03-06-2006, 05:54 PM
OK, today I got a quote from JD on a 50D and the closest Kubota dealer on a KX161-3R4AS. Here are the specs on what they were pricing:

Mini Excavator
Hydraulic Thumb
Quick Attach Coupler
12" Bucket
24" Bucket
36" Bucket
Angle Blade*
Cab with Air
Delivered

*John Deere does not offer angling blade

The Deere is coming in at $59,500 and the Kubota is coming in at $55,500. The only variable not mentioned is that teh JD dealer is offering to buy my 35D (2005 model which only has 275 hours) for 30k, which would make things easy for me.

When comparing machines, it seems the Kubota isn't even in the same class. Some of the things to keep in mind regarding the Kubota:


Has the Auxilary Hydraulic controls on the joystick
Has the angle balde
Weighs 1500lbs more
Offers up to a foot more digging reach
4k Less
Will not buy my machine


John Deere:

Salesman is a buddy
Will buy my Mini
Known Excellent support


I just have no experience with Kubota...I know Squizz uses one and I trust his opinion. In fact, I trust everyone on here's opinion, mainly becuase you all use these machines day in and day out.

I am expecting a price from Cat on a 305 C CR, but he has already informed me that he is going to be "a good bit more" than the JD 50D. PLease folks, let me know your opinions!

qps
03-06-2006, 06:04 PM
OK, today I got a quote from JD on a 50D and the closest Kubota dealer on a KX161-3R4AS. Here are the specs on what they were pricing:

Mini Excavator
Hydraulic Thumb
Quick Attach Coupler
12" Bucket
24" Bucket
36" Bucket
Angle Blade*
Cab with Air
Delivered

*John Deere does not offer angling blade

The Deere is coming in at $59,500 and the Kubota is coming in at $55,500. The only variable not mentioned is that teh JD dealer is offering to buy my 35D (2005 model which only has 275 hours) for 30k, which would make things easy for me.

When comparing machines, it seems the Kubota isn't even in the same class. Some of the things to keep in mind regarding the Kubota:


Has the Auxilary Hydraulic controls on the joystick
Has the angle balde
Weighs 1500lbs more
Offers up to a foot more digging reach
4k Less
Will not buy my machine


John Deere:

Salesman is a buddy
Will buy my Mini
Known Excellent support


I just have no experience with Kubota...I know Squizz uses one and I trust his opinion. In fact, I trust everyone on here's opinion, mainly becuase you all use these machines day in and day out.

I am expecting a price from Cat on a 305 C CR, but he has already informed me that he is going to be "a good bit more" than the JD 50D. PLease folks, let me know your opinions!

I Got a price on a C305CR...PM me and I'll send you the info...I'm looking at a C304CR vs Takeuchi TB53FR...the old 304 was no match..if the new one isn't I would like to wait until the new 53 comes out with a/c...(60 days) maybe....but it was a digging machine....

Gravel Rat
03-06-2006, 07:58 PM
The John Deere is just a little light weight I know you have good relations with the Deere dealer etc. I usually don't promote Komatsu but I would seriously look at the PC-50 its heavier than the Deere.

I'am not impressed with the Yanmar engine Deere uses they are a expensive engine to repair and not known to be quiet. Yanmars are used for marine engines they are good but man are they pricey thats for the non marinized parts the marinized parts are even more :eek:

Its your choice but my feeling is the 50D is going to be very borderline for what you want to-do. For the money wise I would be looking for a low hour meter Zaxis 80 atleast if you do start another subdivision the machine will be big enough to-do most work.

I have been around excavators and heavy equipment since I was able to walk in this community being resource based you are born with levers in your hands :laugh:

Scag48
03-06-2006, 08:20 PM
I'm with Gravel Rat, I'd say a used Zaxis 80, Deere 80, or Cat 307/308 would be a good plan. You could get something for about $65-70K with reasonable hours. But, given your dilema, here's my .02.

I would go down to your Kubota dealer and see what kind of operation they are running down there. Talk extensively with the sales guy and let him know your concerns with switching brands, etc. If things don't go well, there's no reason to even consider the Kubota, we've established the fact that service comes before a "better" machine. However, I do feel the Kubota is the best machine for you. It offers some nice options, is slightly cheaper, and is a heavier machine which is really what you need. Overall, it is the best machine for your operation but only if the dealer support is all that it should be. That's where I would start. Equipment shopping is easy for us, I've already had a pissing match with the Deere dealer so I go straight to Cat no questions :)

thepawnshop
03-06-2006, 08:38 PM
You see Scag, that is where the problem lies for me...I am "buddies" with my JD dealer, my father in law who used to run a very large equipment biz trained the GM of the local JD office and I feel bad just for shopping machines. I will definately make a trip down to see the Kubota guy and I am still waiting for the quote from the Cat dealer. Even if the cat was a few grand more, I think I would go that route instead of the Kubota just based on name recognition. I really wish the 50D was a perfect fit...

As far as a used 80...not a bad idea, but I think a 6 ton machine will do me fine for the time being...it's small enough for me to move with my 3500, yet big enough to do most anything I can throw at it short of developing a whole subdivision. Man, I hope that Cat doesnt come in in the mid 65k range....

Scag48
03-06-2006, 08:45 PM
Think of it this way, you'll buy a 6 ton machine now, and then the next step up will be a 12 ton machine instead of spending more money now on an 8 ton and then replacing it later with a 12 ton, if that makes any sense to you. I'd rather have a brand new $60K 6 ton machine and a brand new $130K 12 ton machine vs. a $70K 8 ton machine with 2000+ hours and a new $130K 12 ton machine. Your versatility ranges are covered alot more with a 6 ton and a 12 ton. Wow, too many numbers. I better get used to them, I'm taking accounting next quarter. ;)

So Doug, when you gonna fly me out there for the summer so I can have a job?

qps
03-06-2006, 09:02 PM
Think of it this way, you'll buy a 6 ton machine now, and then the next step up will be a 12 ton machine instead of spending more money now on an 8 ton and then replacing it later with a 12 ton, if that makes any sense to you. I'd rather have a brand new $60K 6 ton machine and a brand new $130K 12 ton machine vs. a $70K 8 ton machine with 2000+ hours and a new $130K 12 ton machine. Your versatility ranges are covered alot more with a 6 ton and a 12 ton. Wow, too many numbers. I better get used to them, I'm taking accounting next quarter. ;)

So Doug, when you gonna fly me out there for the summer so I can have a job?


Aren't you helping the old man this year????

thepawnshop
03-06-2006, 09:16 PM
Scag, I agree with your numbers...and in the end, your argument is the one that I have played over and over in my head. I think I over analyze any and every "large" purchase. I think I made a mistake last year when I bought the 35D...I absolutely LOVE the machine, but I always wished I had purchased a larger one. So...I hope to have a decision made before the week is out. Of course, it will depend on me selling the one I have.

As for having you come out and run my equipment....I would LOVE that...but...I really rather play than pay, whenever possible, know what I mean?

Scag48
03-06-2006, 09:53 PM
Aren't you helping the old man this year????

It's up in the air right now, I might stay in the Seattle area and get a job working over here, IF and only if I find the right job. I don't want to be stuck in a metropolis unless I'm getting paid good money to stay here during the summers because I can go back home, not pay for 3 months of rent, not have to worry about food because I'll be living at home or gas costs because I'll have a company truck working for my dad.

I know what you're saying Doug, same reason we don't pay anyone to operate our machines. Although dad doesn't enjoy running them, he does when I'm not around. We'll see what happens this summer, if I can get a summer job running equipment for someone and get upwards of $12.00 an hour I'll stay here in Seattle. If not, I get to deal with the old man.

You know, if you get that subdivision, you're going to have 2 machines. I'll take either of which, preferably the 12 ton machine :D

thepawnshop
03-06-2006, 10:10 PM
Scag, I would love to have you around! I pay qualified operators $20 an hour (as a 1099 subcontractor) when I can't run the equipment, but I have to be honest...I sincerely LOVE playing in the dirt. I put my ipod on and don't have a care in the world. Man, there is no business like the excavating business...

qps
03-06-2006, 10:19 PM
Scag, I would love to have you around! I pay qualified operators $20 an hour (as a 1099 subcontractor) when I can't run the equipment, but I have to be honest...I sincerely LOVE playing in the dirt. I put my ipod on and don't have a care in the world. Man, there is no business like the excavating business...

you know that's a very gray area (sub contractors) are suppose to be using there own equipment....not trying to pick on ya:drinkup:

qps
03-06-2006, 10:21 PM
You see Scag, that is where the problem lies for me...I am "buddies" with my JD dealer, my father in law who used to run a very large equipment biz trained the GM of the local JD office and I feel bad just for shopping machines. I will definately make a trip down to see the Kubota guy and I am still waiting for the quote from the Cat dealer. Even if the cat was a few grand more, I think I would go that route instead of the Kubota just based on name recognition. I really wish the 50D was a perfect fit...

As far as a used 80...not a bad idea, but I think a 6 ton machine will do me fine for the time being...it's small enough for me to move with my 3500, yet big enough to do most anything I can throw at it short of developing a whole subdivision. Man, I hope that Cat doesnt come in in the mid 65k range....

It should...if not you know where it does:drinkup:

thepawnshop
03-06-2006, 10:35 PM
Damn, QPS...you don't work for the IRS do you?!?!?

On a serious note, I did not know that....I knew couldn't wear my uniform, but I thought ...well, nevermind what I thought...Oh well Scag...looks like if you come to Roanoke, VA you are gonna be on payroll!

By the way, any of you guys know what the "Stick Digging Force" is on the Kubota 161?

qps
03-06-2006, 10:41 PM
Damn, QPS...you don't work for the IRS do you?!?!?

On a serious note, I did not know that....I knew couldn't wear my uniform, but I thought ...well, nevermind what I thought...Oh well Scag...looks like if you come to Roanoke, VA you are gonna be on payroll!

By the way, any of you guys know what the "Stick Digging Force" is on the Kubota 161?

Not trying to cause a problem, but that's what all the lawn guys try to do...hire people and try to 1099 as subs, problem is there using the lawn guys mower, weed eater...blower...you get the picture...if the guy throws a rock and hits a car or window, who is the owner gonna look at...him...does he have separte contractor insurance to cover his work...doubt it..no sir I'm cutting the grass for doug....go talk to him about the window:dizzy: trust me...the IRS is not my friend...

Gravel Rat
03-06-2006, 11:34 PM
The Kubota has 8776lbs of bucket Force and 4840 arm Force and the machine weighs 12,000lbs.

The Deere has Bucket force of 8273 and arm force of 5400lbs and the machine weighs 10,428lbs.

The Cat 305 has a bucket force of 11,445lbs and the arm is 6500lbs but the machine only weighs 11,725lbs.

So the 305 "Technically" has more power but I have a feeling Cat has the machine maxed out.

The higher stick force doesn't mean crapola if the machine isn't heavy enough to stop itself from standing on its nose or sliding when your pulling back on the stick.

I have ran minis to 200 size machines where I hooked onto a rock and it didn't budge but pulled the machine up onto its nose and try bounce the rock out. I also have dug into something hard and the machine just slid forward.

As for hiring excavator operators they go on the payroll no under the table or subcontractor B.S. . The operator has to be insured and work under workers compensation. Well experience operators make 25 dollars per hour the guys in the forestry make 30 bucks per hour. There is no unions the employees DO NOT want unions they are a waste of time waste of money cause nothing but grief. Employers are good to their employees no one gets screwed around they get paid at the 15th and the 30th.

Like I meantioned before the operator is also the maintainer of the machine they are operating. If they break something they fix it so you better know how to pull wrenches. Its part of the job requirements you also have to have a CDL to run the tandem axle gravel truck.

Scag48
03-06-2006, 11:44 PM
Doug, I just got off the phone with a friend of mine. He knows this guy that is somewhat of a big wig in this company called CDM out here in the Seattle branch I guess. Apparently they're a worldwide company that takes care of a wide range of large scale projects. Anyway, my friend said they're looking for summer operators and my friend told him I was looking for a summer job running equipment and trying to gain some experience in the field. From what it sounds like, they have just the position for me and plenty of open space, I guess they need like 25 guys. So I'm going to give the fellow a call and send a resume, we'll see what happens. Here's their website. www.cdm.com If things don't work out, you got a position open for me? :D

thepawnshop
03-06-2006, 11:55 PM
You betcha, Scag.

GR, the bucket breakout force you are quoting is for the 121...on the Kubota website they show a bucket breakout of 11118 for the 161, but they do not list the arm break out force, which I am looking for for my "side by side I am a spec nerd" spreadsheet I have created to compare what teh manufacturers "claim" for their machines.

The Kubota looks in line with the Cat, which both have about 26% more bucket breakout force than the Deere, whatever the hell that means....

emg35
03-07-2006, 12:00 AM
I bought a cat 305 last year around this time and love it. I have rented smaller units and been pulled around by them but the 305 sits very well. The only time tipping has been a problem is when straddling a ditch sideways and extending all the way out. I have never came close to tipping but it will get up on one track. For all it's worth the 305 is a solid machine and when the time comes to replace it I will by buying another cat.

Erik

Gravel Rat
03-07-2006, 12:23 AM
With the slopes we walk machines down gets a machine tipping pretty good. Mini's have a advantage because of the blade it will help you from tipping side to side. You need the reach so you can put the bucket out far enough to start you over the break over angle then decend.

As for bucket breakout force I'am not sure I guess its the power the machine has to curl the bucket. It all depends on how hard the ground is and how good your bucket teeth are and what size of bucket you have.

You can put a trenching bucket on any machine and it will dig better than a regular digging bucket. We had instances here were the hard pan is so hard that the 200 size machine with a regular digging bucket won't touch it where the 12,000 mini with its trenching bucket will cut through the hard pan. Its slow but it works.

One place I was digging the ground was so hard there was smoke coming off the teeth on the machine (16 ton) eventually the breaker was brought in to bust it up. It wasn't rock just very hard ground the teeth just slid over the surface I tried everything to get a edge.

You also need the weight in the machine when your running the clean up bucket working in heavy wet material. With the 1 yard bucket on the 200 digging heavy clay and dirt would lean the machine over. When your working ontop of a pile with the machine is only sitting on material the width of the machine you have to be carefull.

The Kubota I ran had the wide steel tracks its used in dirt and rock 90% of the time so rubber tracks are not needed. For the slopes the machine works on wider the tracks the better.

Squizzy246B
03-07-2006, 12:23 AM
:) Hey Doug, I was trying to post earlier but some noisy bugger turned up out the front in a skid steer with a cold planer and started ripping up the street!..honestly, these machine operators have no respect...!!:rolleyes:

Anyway, Yeah, on paper the 161 does fit a niche and does well. My advice though is to go give it a good workout. You need two or three hours in the saddle at least to really get a feel for how it performs. It is not the ballsiest machine out there. Our machine does 1000 hrs a year or thereabouts but half of this is laying blocks where its not doing a lot. If rip bang is your game I'd look at the Hitachi or Cat. If you want a good solid machine that doesn't cost the earth and will last for years then the Kubota may be your deal. I'm constantly amazed at the jobs our 161 does. In the hands of a good operator it will hold its own.

Service and support is our major consideration and due to whats happening here we wont buy another Kubota

qps
03-07-2006, 07:45 AM
You betcha, Scag.

GR, the bucket breakout force you are quoting is for the 121...on the Kubota website they show a bucket breakout of 11118 for the 161, but they do not list the arm break out force, which I am looking for for my "side by side I am a spec nerd" spreadsheet I have created to compare what teh manufacturers "claim" for their machines.

The Kubota looks in line with the Cat, which both have about 26% more bucket breakout force than the Deere, whatever the hell that means....


Ask bill (uniscaper) about breakout forces:dizzy: ...there just numbers....try the machine...thats the true "spec" test....

ksss
03-07-2006, 04:58 PM
I do wish someone would standardize the testing on advertised numbers such as breakout force, crowding force ect. The ag industry has the Nebraska tests we have nothing but BS.

thepawnshop
03-07-2006, 05:15 PM
Im with you, KSSS. if you believe the numbers, though, the Kubota 161 and the Cat 305 are neck and neck! Unfortunately, according to the Cat sales rep, they don't even have pricing available for the angling blade yet, and at best the machines with that feature won't hit until at least 60 days from now. At least he is going to give me a price WITHOUT the angling blade tonight.

qps
03-07-2006, 05:28 PM
Im with you, KSSS. if you believe the numbers, though, the Kubota 161 and the Cat 305 are neck and neck! Unfortunately, according to the Cat sales rep, they don't even have pricing available for the angling blade yet, and at best the machines with that feature won't hit until at least 60 days from now. At least he is going to give me a price WITHOUT the angling blade tonight.


I think the one I gave you was with the blade....the 304 is...

thepawnshop
03-07-2006, 05:34 PM
Hell, Q....I thought you had the inside track on pricing! Now that scares me. I liked the number you gave me...I am just going to speculate here...I think that feature will AT LEAST cost $1,500...your thoughts?

qps
03-07-2006, 06:00 PM
Hell, Q....I thought you had the inside track on pricing! Now that scares me. I liked the number you gave me...I am just going to speculate here...I think that feature will AT LEAST cost $1,500...your thoughts?


If you like I'll ask my cat guy if that was with the angle blade....

thepawnshop
03-07-2006, 06:02 PM
Well, the quote just came in on the "NEW" Cat 305C Cr...

Base Machine (Cab air): $60,550
With 12", 24" & 36" buckets and Manual Quick Coupler: $65,038

This price DOES NOT include the angle blade....Damn! Kubota is looking MORE THAN 10K cheaper!!!!!!!

Man, Cat sure is proud of that machine!

thepawnshop
03-07-2006, 06:13 PM
That price doesn't include the thumb either!

emg35
03-07-2006, 06:49 PM
What ever x you go with get Wayne Roy quick coupler. Every time I change buckets on my x I fate myself for not getting the Wayne Roy's. The cats Manual Quick Coupler work great sometimes and can be a real pain other times.

Erik

ksss
03-07-2006, 06:56 PM
Man, thats enough money. I would imagine with a thumb that will be around 67,500 at least. It seems like a lot for that size of a machine.

CutRight
03-07-2006, 08:36 PM
go with the kubota, I have one, love it.

definatly has more power than I expected a machine that size to have.

Haven't met a stump I couldn't pop yet. (haha although i know there are stumps Im not going to try and meet, just to be realistic)

The thing digs plenty deep. quick smooth hydraulics. I've loaded some heavy a$$ logs on a flatbed to send to the mill. the hydraulic thumb is fantastic, i got mine added on for $1000. I have an angle blade with a float position. works great for back dragging and some grading stuff.
quick disconnect coupler. I dont have any other buckets yet, but i soon will be getting a grading and drainage bucket.

as long as your being realistic with the machine for the size that it is. I dont think theres anything you will encounter that it can't handle.
man power.
god bless america.

Squizzy246B
03-08-2006, 02:35 AM
He's right ya know..

Time for a test drive:laugh:

ksss
03-08-2006, 10:17 PM
Pawnshop, On Iron planet on the 23rd is a 308CR 2004 coming up for auction has not been inspected yet but it is located in WV. Thought you may want to know.

thepawnshop
03-08-2006, 10:30 PM
In the inspection reports, do they tell you if it's a grey market machine or not?

Gravel Rat
03-08-2006, 10:44 PM
We have used a 161 Kubota to help flip a tandem axle truck back on its wheels.

The cheapest thing is rent a Kubota or Cat in the size you are looking at and try it out the worst you will loose is the rental cost over getting deep in debt and find out oh crap this machine is too small.

thepawnshop
03-08-2006, 10:56 PM
GR, I'd like to own a Cat for a number of reasons, one of which is that my dad was a big Caterpillar guy when he was a superintendant @ a rock quarry. I grew up wearing "Cat" hats that the sales reps would give my father. My dad has since passed away, but I think (and I know it's silly) he may be looking down on me with a smile knowing that I may be a "Cat" guy too. Unfortunately, the price I have gotten from the cat dealer set up the way I want it is right at 70k for the 305C CR...he is quoting me nothing but retail. For the moment, I am going to play his game, but I do know that a different Caterpillar dealer quoted someone else the same spec'd machine for over 8k less! What a friggen crock!

The numbers on the Kubota look awesome, both operationally and financially...but if there is any way possible (short of paying retail) I would really rather go Cat. I have searched online auctions and classifieds and I honestly do not see where Kubota loses any more value than Cat does, though I know some fan-boys will claim that Cat has the greatest resale since bread. I don't want to start that type of debate, just pointing out what I have seen.

ksss
03-08-2006, 11:49 PM
Doug it does not appear that they state one way or the other. It does have the serial number posted so it would be possible to run the PIN number with CAT and see where it was made. Reference resale I have noticed the same thing for quite some time (at least in the type of equipment that I am most familiar with). To me it is much like the service issue. Proclaiming loudly from the mountain tops does not make it so, but it may make you feel better.

Gravel Rat
03-09-2006, 12:24 AM
Its not the brand I would be worried about its the size of the machine you don't want to find out that its not enough.

As for dealers fooling around in price that doesn't really happen with Cat in Western Canada there is only one dealer that services Cat with a main office and branch offices.

As for resale value most contractors are not worried about that by the time they are done with the machine its a Ritchie Bros special which means its past its service life.

Just because its one brand doesn't make it worth more what makes a machine worth money is the condition also equipment demands sets resale value.

What you should be concerned about is the machine going for 10,000 hours without major repairs. Minor repairs like pins and changing track rollers is no big deal its when you have to change the rotex or house bearings thats where the money is.

You want to beable to have enough work to pay for the machine off in a year or two years. A 12,000lb excavator makes a hourly rate of 70-80 dollars per hour it technically should be making minimum 9000 dollars a month or a yearly total of 108,000 dollars.

MarcusLndscp
03-10-2006, 09:37 PM
Squizzy...that's all Johnny's got??? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Wish I had some pics of the pine stumps I pulled with ours this fall. They were easily double the size of that one:weightlifter: . I love that Kubota

7 IRON
03-15-2006, 02:39 PM
Doug,

Are You looking For A Zero Tail Swing?I Think The Kx's Back End Sticks
Out When You Are Rotating The Cab.May Not Be A Big Deal,But Something
To Think About.

CutRight
03-15-2006, 03:38 PM
this stump was just too easy to pop, thats my friend with very little machine time gettin that one out.

tylermckee
03-15-2006, 08:29 PM
You call that a stump?! give me 5 minutes with a garden shovel and i would have that sucker popped out:weightlifter:

CutRight
03-15-2006, 09:27 PM
i didnt say it was a big one. dug up some stumps out of frame that were so big i couldnt lift them out of the hole, well i didnt really feel like trying so i just dug the whole deeper and buried them. this is at my own property so it doesnt matter. just putting in a road to park my equipment behind the house.

dug1016
03-16-2006, 01:41 AM
Doug,

Go with the Kubota. Being a good buddy with the Deere dealer is a not a selling point. I would just make sure the Kubota dealer has the ability to support the tractor to your satisfaction.