certified ?

[n y snow pros]

What do you think about having a program that would improve the snow plow contractors image? Think about,if you could show your customers that you truly are a profesional and are a step above the compitition would it be worth it.Could you use this certification as another sales tool and increase your business.Something like the landscape trade has.You landscapers on here would know more about this than me.I think they call it ALCA.I thought this was an aluminum company but thats ALCOA (little humor there).Anyway i believe ALCA has a program where you can be a certified landscaper or technician for Walk installations,hardscapes,plantings etc.My piont is why cant the snow plow industry have the same.What are your thoughts?

[75]

I think this is a good idea - another example of this is the Canadian Welding Bureau which oversees standards and welder qualifications here in Canada. It is not mandatory to be a CWB member to operate a legitimate welding business here, but for some jobs (examples: structural steel supply/erection, repair welding on hoisting or elevating devices) CWB certification IS required - I have done numerous jobs where I had to show proof of qualification and write down my welding ticket number on the work order. Among other things, the CWB administers welder tests, approves welding procedures and establishes standards for welding products.

I feel that actually making the idea of certification for snow removal contractors reality may be difficult - mainly for the following reason:

Administration: Someone (meaning an organization - SIMA are you listening?!) will have to be in charge of all this - which will involve $$$. CWB certification is a fairly involved process, and there are several different levels your company can be certified to, depending on size. Since snow removal contractors range from one person operations (that will be me next season!) to l-a-r-g-e companies, there will likely need to be different levels of snow removal certification.

Another reason that certification may be complex is geographical differences - snow & ice control in my part of Canada is different from out in the prairie provinces, and different again from the US midwest. I think to be relevant, the certification process will need to be tailored for different areas/requirements.

This in turn creates the need for more administration = cost. Ultimately, it will cost money to be certified - the question is how much?

I'm not sure how insurance companies work/think, but if they could be brought "on side" I wonder if the benefit of lower insurance rates for certified snow removal contractors could be realized?

Education of the customer will also be required - being a certified company will cost some $$$ and should command a higher premium as a result.

As I said, I think it's a good idea, the process of putting it into practice could become pretty involved, but in the long term the benefits could be worthwhile.

Just a couple of thoughts from me - I'm looking forward to hearing input from other members.

[GeoffDiamond]

Isn't that what SIMA does, seperate the joe blow from the pro.

Up my way many people higher there snowplowing contractor based on one thing price. With the amount of snow we had this year, it taught a few a lesson. Many now know cheap price= crap service, more expensive price= better service.

Geoff

[plowking35]

Just one more item for Big Brother to watch me with.
Less goverment please.
Dino

[75]

Good point regarding "Less Government!" Dino - in the case of the CWB, it isn't government related. So it would be possible for a non-government body to oversee things. Of course, that brings up the problem I was referring to: more administration = more overhead = more cost!

[Rob]

I think there are several good points brought out here. But, I'd have to ask myself what's to be gained by having this type of 'certification'. I think that in order for this certification to be meaningful, there would have to be some testing prcedure to see if the plower meets the qualifications, then some enforcement to be sure that they actual follow what they were 'tested' on. Another point would be if you have multiple plow trucks would all of the drivers have to be certified or would you like to see the certification on the company level. Unless you go down to the driver level, there can still potentially be yahoos driving the trucks for a certified company. Seems to me that it would be difficult to manage and impossible to enforce. Something else I'd ask myself prior to going for a certification like this is, do my customers really look for something like this / do they really care, or are they only concerned with the price (as Geoff mentioned).
Right now, my gut feel is to agree with Dino and say less government / supervision.

Just my .02

[diggerman]

Which is why SIMA has its place and importance but not as a true judge of the performance or capability of a particular member.The yearly fee is only to serve as a acknowlagement of intrest and willingness to learn not as a "qualification" for someone who has cheated there customer out of an extra $130.00.I do not think that SIMA was ever intended to be a organization which qualified its members but rather a place where its members could become more quailfied.I do not think that a certification from an orginization which is only known to those who are certified will do much good,I would much rather provide refrences to anyone who feels that the quality of my service is in question.

[Alan]

In the lawn maintenance field there are advantages to a certifiction process. There are disease and insect problems to be recognized, fertilization and seed criteria to be dealt with. In that situation there is a lot more to know than in snow and ice work. I'm certainly not trying to minimize the snow removal field, but I'm not really sure just what you would test for to get the certification. What would you establish as standards? Forgive me for being a wiseass here, but I can see a sample question being "How do you know if it's snowing?"

[plowking35]

Policeing such a cert. process would be very time consuming and difficult. But since digger is against it, I am all for it. LOL just a joke.
Dino

[John Allin]

Dino...
I thought you two had made up......

[plowjockey]

IMO The SIMA organization is an association of plow operators and plowing oriented individuals who are together because they care enough about the professionalism of the work they do to try and better their business practices. It is not a controlling entity and while being "certified" would be a good selling point I feel it would definately lead to state control and liscensing of individuals in the business.

Just my observations not necessarily the correct view.

Bruce

[plowking35]

The state of Conn has a home improvemwnt contractors registration, that when boiled down has no effect on the quality of work or whether the person is quilified to do the work. Its just a way for the state to get 180.00 from each person per yr. I think the cert process for plowing would end up similar, and or lead to a local or state registration process that would cost more money. I say leave it well enough alone. The market and customer should be able to weed out the non performers.
Dino

[John Allin]

I would think that such a certification program would have to be patterned after ALCA's CLP set up..... whereby it would be geared towards the owner of the business initially. While there would be some testing of actual snow plowing mechanics and techniques, it would be geared more towards ascertaining knowledge about business, accounting, law, contracts, etc...

And, I would surmise that such a program would not (initially) be for "certifying" a company, but a way for a business owner/manager/management person to be able to say that they have an understanding of basic business principles AS WELL AS knowledge of the snow industry.

This is the way the ALCA CLP exam is geared. ALCA has been able to make some great progress in raising the awareness of landscapers being professionals and not just 'grass cutters'. I would think that if any sort of snow industry certification exam were geared towards this goal (of raising awareness with the buying public of our professionalism and business acumen) would be a good thing.

How many of our customers treat us like we cannot find real jobs because we are out all night working in horrendous conditions doing a (sometimes) impossible task? And when we are done, some of them complain about the "service" even though God wasn't on our side on this storm....

I'm on the ALCA Certification Board of Governors and the CLP/CLT exam process is a bigtime loser from a dollars and cents standpoint - so it isn't a way for ALCA to "make more money". I know as I'm privy to the dollars. In fact, the ALCA Board has a concern about how much it's costing.

As for "policing" it ?? If it were a program that just attested to the knowledge and educational background of the applicant/test person - there would be little need for ongoing policing other than some sort of recertification program.... unless there were to be some concrete proof that an individual broke a code of ethics (by the way SIMA will most likely adopt a Code of Ethics at the next Board meeing in Denver - something members have asked for repeatedly).

SIMA is looking very closely at the ALCA setup with the eventaul intent of giving those in the industry a way to set themselves apart from the plow jockeys (no offense intended to Bruce) out there that we all ***** and moan about when they undercut our pricing, put ghosts on the hourly rate jobs, or tear up a property indescriminantly. Even though SIMA does this just through being a member of SIMA, there's nothing to say that any member knows anything about "business".

The ALCA CLP is set up so that anyone that takes the exam MUST study quite alot about "business" as well as about landscaping. One cannot help but learn how to read a financial statement, how to set up a good HR program, learn alittle something about contract law, and how to know for sure if you're making a profit. I find that those that I talk with about the ALCA CLP exam and take time to poo-poo it usually don't know near enough about "business" to pass it.

Now... I don't think that is the case here with some of the negative comments above, because I know Dino personally - and my perception is that he is "business savy". Possibly, given this post Dino may view JParker's post differently - although that is not for me to say. I don't know the others personally (except JP - whom I also know to be "business savy") so I really can't say.

Much like the ALCA CLP designation, I would tend to think that the personal satisfaction that comes with proving to ones' self that they are business savy would be quite a reward in and of itself. I know that is how I felt upon passing the ALCA CLP exam. And the respect from my peers in ALCA for having gone through the process and having passed is quite satisfying too. Personally, I think such a program for plowing and ice control contractors (and property managers for that matter) would be a great boon to the industry as a whole given the fact that we are all (here) interested in raising the bar significantly with regards to how "WE" are treated by other people in the world.

[Edited by John Allin on 04-25-2001 at 08:10 AM]

[66Construction]

It just seems like a lot of hastle, I file enough forms now as it is. It will take a huge effort and a lot of time and even more money for people to get past "the lowest price". The last thing I need is OSHA or someone similar watching me or my guys plowing waiting to fine me because I have a blown out reverse light. If it comes to that I'll give my plows away. My SIMA certificate is more then just about anyone else around here has, It's good enough for me. You don't need a certification, if you treat you clients right and make a name for youself you don't need anything else.
Casey

[GeoffDiamond]

John ya bring up some good points,

However what if you aren't involved in Landscaping.

Pavers, Exevators, and many other types of biz are involved in snow plowing.

Geoff

[Deere John]

I am also involved in certification - forest certification. The company I work for, a very large forest products company, is embarking on a third-party Forest Stewardship Council certification of our practices in light of their 10 forest management principles.

The exercise is good in that we look critically at what we do on the ground and in our relations to planning and other forest uses, including first nations. The FSC logo attached to our products (at Home Depot, for example) will tell Joe Pubic that the 2x4 he is buying comes from a sustainably-managed forest.

However, in the context of certifying my other passion, snow control, certification schemes are costly to audit (repeatedly)(annually) by a body that can claim 1) authority and 2) independence. Additionally, such a scheme faces a tremendous public recognition void - we would be preaching to the 0.5 percent of the population that would use our service. That 0.5 percent is hard enough to reach on our own, without having to pay for such "advertizing" that will largely fall on the wrong audience. The initial partners would bear many costs of a certification body or subsidize it to legitimize an auditing body.

There are many groups and sources of funding for the FSC, because everyone wants to see forest, bears, fish, and spotted owls managed well. They have $$$ pouring in and are currently building a $50 million war chest to publicize the cause. This form of certification for our industry is not reality.

While I support the efforts in the bushes, I prefer to see my own star rise on account of my own business savy in the snow. If you think government asks alot of questions, try spending two days with an environmental auditor looking for ways to revoke the certification, prior to sending you the bill.

References and a positive, professional business image is the best way to go. Good thread going here.

[John Allin]

Geoff,
I thought we were talking about a program for snow contractors. Landscaping would have nothing to do with it.... lots of landscapers that have their CLP are not plowing snow in winter.

I was just saying that ALCA has a program in place that is done very well and suits the needs of the landscape industry, and would be easy to mirror. ALCA has been quite helpful in assisting SIMA in setting up our organization structure and we have found ALCA to be a nice "role model" thus far.

[plowking35]

Here is a thought, what if we have a sanctioning body that certifies snow removal operations, and then the body goes under, as many grass roots efforts do. Our customers would be at a loss to why we are no longer certified, and may get the wrong idea.
However some sort of knowledge of proper use of chemicals probably will be adopted I would think in our industry. It will most likely occur at the state level in CT, along the lines of pest control/ herbicide governing bodies that are in place now.
As for a money making issue, it was an example of the State of Ct home improvement regisration proceedure. I am sure with all the work that ALCA has put into their cert program, it is not nearly the money making scam that the CT reg is.
Dino

[GeoffDiamond]

Sorry John

I feel stupid :)


Geoff

[plowjockey]

I seem to be hearing good points on both sides of the coin here. On the pro side cert. = credibility (which you may or may not really have). On the con side cert. = regulations (but are we really talking about something for the state or just, say, a testing procedure of sorts to be able to prove your abilities and business acumen).
This thread is a little controversial but is bringing about some really good thoughts.

Bruce
Darn got me thinking now and I was planning on taking it easy tonight.

[John Allin]

Geoff,
I thought I was the only one who felt stupid from time to time. Nice to know I'm not alone....

[thelawnguy]

Originally posted by plowking35
As for a money making issue, it was an example of the State of Ct home improvement regisration proceedure. I am sure with all the work that ALCA has put into their cert program, it is not nearly the money making scam that the CT reg is.
Dino

There is an important feature of the CT reg system that should be pointed out; if a homeowner uses a registered contractor and that contractor fails to fulfill the contract or screws up somehow and wont fix the problem, the state, from a pool of funds the registration fee is put into, will pay to remedy the situation. If a customer uses an unregistered contractor they do not enjoy the benefits of this protection.

Any "certification" would have to be more than a shiny star on a dues-paying members lapel. There must be some benefit to the customer, the ultimate end-user. But I fail to see what "certification" would accomplish. What good would company certification be if the driver on site is yesterdays homeless shelter occupant with a CDL working per diem?

[Deere John]

I was on the run yesterday and forgot to mention that my (significant) involvement in certification and auditing systems and products has not yielded a pricing advantage to us as the producer. Net-net, the costs have out-weighed the benefits.

What we have seen is that in a tough market, like we have right now, a certified product/process/resource is a selling feature that may help one hold onto a customer who may otherwise shop on price alone.

[75]

Question for John Allin: Is the ALCA CLP a one-time exam, or does it require a rewrite/check test at regular intervals?

Without going to all the details of CWB certification, individual welder's tickets (practical test) are good for two years, while the welding supervisor rating (written test) is good for five.

Another (albeit a little off the main topic) example is the coach & instructor ratings issued by the Canadian Sport Parachuting Association. Again without going into all the details, certain minimum requirements must be met in order to earn your ratings. Once you have them, your ratings are valid as long as your CSPA membership is kept current - there is no annual retest, it is up to the rating holder to stay current & involved in the sport. However, the skydiving community is pretty small & it's easy to keep track of who's who.

I definitely agree with everyone who says "keep the government out of it" - I have a feeling that having them involved would turn the whole idea into a money-grabbing scam!

[plowking35]

While it is true that they Dept of Consumer protection will pay for repairs from a registered contractors screw up, any one willing to pony up the money will be registered. it has no bearing on the contractors abilities. And that was my point that with out regulation and testing the cert program would be just another ad tool.
Dino

[diggerman]

I also think that with all of the diffrent business plans as well as the various diffrences in plowing techniques that it would be vary hard to have a certification based on one groups idea of what the proper or desired way to serve a particular plowers customers.

[Guido]

I see how difficult it would be to have an actual certification program for Snow and Ice Control Contractors, and I do see where SIMA can be a great benefit to the team.

Heres my problem, I make less than $1,000 a month in the Air Force. For some reason they will not pay for us to be certified in the "outside world" and are happy with the training we get internally. You can defenitely tell the difference in people that have plowed in the outside before they joined up, and the other guys that got trained inside. I would love to be a part of SIMA, theres just no way in hell I could ever afford to be. I have looked around on their website and I will be e-mailing John about some options so that I will be able to get invovlved in SIMA hopefully.

This is where a Certification program could benefit me. I know I'm a minority (military member) in the SN&IC world, but I was just stating my opinion from where I stand today and where I will be standing for the next 16 + years!

Thanks for the great Thread guys!

[John Allin]

75,
I was not ignoring you, I've been traveling since last Thursday, and just got back to Erie.....

To sustain the ALCA CLP designation, there is a recertification process. You have three years to achieve enough "credits" to be recertified. If you fail to achieve such credits, you can retake the exam to get recertified.

[75]

Thank you for answering my question John - and no problem with the delay! I have been gone since Saturday morning myself - putting my instructor rating to use at the drop zone!

Keeping the certification "current" is important, in my opinion, because processes/materials/etc are always changing and evolving.

From reading the posts here, I believe that while the certification process is a good idea, it would be somewhat impractical to actually apply it in the "real world".

[MOE]

Lots of us out there use subcontractors for plowing, It would be too easy to use a certified plower or company to get the job and than just sub it out to Johnny Independant.
When there is 18" of snow on the ground we would just want to get the job done certified or not.
It would just end up being a marketing gimmick.

Moe

[Rooster]

Heres my problem, I make less than $1,000 a month in the Air Force. For some reason they will not pay for us to be certified in the "outside world" and are happy with the training we get internally.

This is where a Certification program could benefit me. I know I'm a minority (military member) in the SN&IC world, but I was just stating my opinion from where I stand today and where I will be standing for the next 16 + years!

Guido from the copy of the above I can't beleive you make less than $1,000.00 per month in the military.

Not downing you, I was in you position over 25 years ago when the gross pay for an E-1 was $383.00 per month.

Please explain from you post if you serve 20 years, 4 years of your enlistment is about over. 16 more to go. Unless you are an E-1.

Just trying to understand.

[Guido]

Base Pay is 1250 a month

subtract from that $100 Federal Taxes, $100 Social Security, $20 Medicare, $20 State Tax, $20 Life Insurance


16 + years meant I'm staying in for at least 20 if not more.

[thelawnguy]

guido, why?

I understand the pension thing after 20 years, but with the higher pay you would be making in the private sector, after 20 years you would have made more than enough additional to offset that pension. Especially someone such as yourself, you appear to be of higher intelligence than the average grunt.

Plus you havent lost 20 of the best years of your life to the military and the inherent risks that go with it.

IMO

[Guido]

Bill, believe me I think about it everyday! There are a lot of benefits though, plus I'm very proud of what I'm doing. Another thing I think of is a safe environment for my family someday. I just really enjoy the way of life and the traveling all over the world part of the deal! :) I think its great that I'll learn construction techniques from all over the world, etc.

Someone's got to do it, right?

[GeoffDiamond]

Every Job is inportant. Some days I have more respect for the guy that come to get my dumpster once a week, than I do for my lawyer.

Geoff

[John Allin]

Lawyers are everywhere.
Not that many garbage people out there.
I agree with Geoff.....
I have alot of respect for guys like Guido.
Keep up the good work Guido.